Upcoming Graduate Recruitment

dublad

Ok here goes im a final year student studying accounting & finance and the whole recruitment thing has already kicked off. So far everyone seems to be of the impression 'the Big4 is the place to be'.

I on the other hand have been thinking it'd be better to train in a small practice as I would get a better all rounded learning and then when the time comes think about moving onto one of the big 4 companies. I've heard stories where u just end up in one sector of the big 4 company, and ye ok you learn that area very well but some of the other areas you dont get much experience. In a small practice id be starting from the basics and doing everything right the way through to preparing the financial statements, wheres in the B4 i could be constantly just dealing with one area of the accounts.

So basically i was looking for some advice on what to apply for? Is what i have been told correct? or am I passing up an excellent chance to get in the door of one of the bigger companies?

Cheers

Bren1609

Have a look at the other thread "Accountants without a clue"

Big 4 definetely looks better on the cv.

Newaglish

It depends entirely on what you want - if you want to be a "proper" accountant, ie. one who prepares accounts (which I don't think any of the more senior accountants would do regularly? it's not really my area so I don't know) then you are probably better off with a smaller firm as you'd learn more of the technical side of things. It'd probably be the route to choose if you envision yourself opening your own practice own day.

If you want to move into other areas ie. financial controller, investment banker, consultancy, insolvency etc. you'd be better off with the Big 4 - they train the softer skills much better (work ethic, communication, etc.) and it looks great on your CV. That's not to say that the route is inaccessible for those from smaller firms, it's just a very well recognised name on the CV.

Most people do think Big 4 = better, but it's not necessarily true - i've met some people who are pretty clueless and not very motivated, nor are they technically skilled - they wouldn't pass even the most basic of debits & credits exams.

EDIT: If anyone needs any advice etc. on applications/opportunities etc. feel free to PM me or ask away in the thread

lochie

I went through the whole milkround process this time last year and in the end opted for industry. But from talking to people who went for big 4 vs smaller practice I would def pick a smaller practice over big 4. It's exactly as you said about been pigeon-holed into a certain area whereas in a smaller practice you do get wider experience.

Personally I don't hold with all the supposed "prestige" attached with the big 4and ACA. Just apply for all and do whatever interviews you get, then if you get offered different jobs you can examine the different options and see what suits you best. Go to grad fair in rds in october and chat to people there to get a feel for what it is like to work there.

From what I have heard if you want to work till 10 most nights and most weekends with no payment for the overtime and no time off in lieu, any of the "big 6" are for you! I know this from talking to people who trained in these firms and are now working with me in industry.

Newaglish

lochie wrote:

From what I have heard if you want to work till 10 most nights and most weekends with no payment for the overtime and no time off in lieu, any of the "big 6" are for you! I know this from talking to people who trained in these firms and are now working with me in industry.

Absolute horseshit. I have never EVER worked a single minute of overtime without getting pay or time off in-lieu. I work in a Big 4 firm and everyone I know charges absolutely every minute they are in work - if I take a short lunch, arrive in early, don't leave till 7oclock, spend 2 hours travelling to a site, work on some files at home on the weekend, have a meeting at lunch time, I charge all of it!

Also, just because you don't hold with the alleged "prestige" of the Big 4, employers do, and that's what's important.

seanieclarke

do reps from smal practices be at the rds?

if not,where is the best place to look for finding trainee roles in small practices?

Kingkong

My two cent.

No matter who you talk to everyone is bias. Accountancy is such a large area that the word doesnt do justice to the career. Dont get sucked in by big promises and people sayin there workplace is great. Money drives choice majorly and the larger accountancy firms will pay a lot more than smaller firms. Smaller firms can be nicer to work with and really are the accountants. The big 4 arent really accountants as there's only so much money in preparing accounts.

dublad

Cheers lads for all da replies, any avice/help I can get on this is great.

Im not really too sure on what area of accounting id wanna go into so that would also be steerin me towards a smaller practice as id get to experience all the diff areas and see which ones i prefer. I'm also thinkin, well if a big 4 company are willing to take me now based on the degree then why wouldn't they take me 3/4 yrs down the line when im fully qualified and have the degree also?

Also about opening my own practice one day, i wouldnt really wanna rule that out at such an early stage of my career ( also kinda invisage myself being my own boss 1 day but i suppose every1 does that) so it'b probably be more benefical to train in a smaller practice.

Someone mentioned bout the wage difference?Would there really be that big a difference for a trainee?...like to be honest money would be my main driving factor, it'd more be from a training point of view. I know it sounds like im really leaning towards the side of a smaller pracice here, and to be honest i kinda am but at the same time cant help feeling that im trowing away an excellent opportunity?

lochie

Newaglish wrote:

Absolute horseshit. I have never EVER worked a single minute of overtime without getting pay or time off in-lieu. I work in a Big 4 firm and everyone I know charges absolutely every minute they are in work - if I take a short lunch, arrive in early, don't leave till 7oclock, spend 2 hours travelling to a site, work on some files at home on the weekend, have a meeting at lunch time, I charge all of it!

Also, just because you don't hold with the alleged "prestige" of the Big 4, employers do, and that's what's important.

It's not horse**** as you so eloquently put it as I know at least 3 people that I currently work with who have been through this. I would hardly make it up. Good for you getting paid but I know for a fact this happens regularly and trainees are treated badly

lochie

dublad wrote:

Cheers lads for all da replies, any avice/help I can get on this is great.

Im not really too sure on what area of accounting id wanna go into so that would also be steerin me towards a smaller practice as id get to experience all the diff areas and see which ones i prefer. I'm also thinkin, well if a big 4 company are willing to take me now based on the degree then why wouldn't they take me 3/4 yrs down the line when im fully qualified and have the degree also?

Also about opening my own practice one day, i wouldnt really wanna rule that out at such an early stage of my career ( also kinda invisage myself being my own boss 1 day but i suppose every1 does that) so it'b probably be more benefical to train in a smaller practice.

Someone mentioned bout the wage difference?Would there really be that big a difference for a trainee?...like to be honest money would be my main driving factor, it'd more be from a training point of view. I know it sounds like im really leaning towards the side of a smaller pracice here, and to be honest i kinda am but at the same time cant help feeling that im trowing away an excellent opportunity?

My friend started work in a small but growing practice of about 100 people on €23,000. I was offered €20,000 with one of the big 6 but think the big 4 generally start on about €24,000

lochie

seanieclarke wrote:

do reps from smal practices be at the rds?

if not,where is the best place to look for finding trainee roles in small practices?

I only came across two small practices at the RDS last year. Mostly our career office let us know about small practice jobs. Our career office were so helpful. They did mock interviews the morning of real interviews and everything! Quite a few jobs with small practices are immediate start so are advertised in Independant/Times at around March/April/May.

seanieclarke

lochie wrote:

I only came across two small practices at the RDS last year. Mostly our career office let us know about small practice jobs. Our career office were so helpful. They did mock interviews the morning of real interviews and everything! Quite a few jobs with small practices are immediate start so are advertised in Independant/Times at around March/April/May.

alright thanks for that.

is that the career office in your college?
how would they know about vacancies - do practices contact them directly?

Bren1609

lochie wrote:

My friend started work in a small but growing practice of about 100 people on €23,000.

Thats not a small practice!

Newaglish

lochie wrote:

It's not horse**** as you so eloquently put it as I know at least 3 people that I currently work with who have been through this. I would hardly make it up. Good for you getting paid but I know for a fact this happens regularly and trainees are treated badly

You can't just state as a fact that nobody gets paid for overtime and "trainees are treated badly". The only people I ever see with such negative attitudes towards the Big 4 are people who don't work there.

I think trainees are actually treated very well. The money is good (excluding your first year, which isn't even that bad), you're expected to work hard, sometimes long hours (which you get paid for) but you learn a lot and it's a real work hard/play hard attitude. I can see how some people working in audit would say that the work itself can be quite boring and repetetive and it can probably be pretty mind-numbing at times, but that's more the nature of audit and not the nature of the company itself.

I think it's very unfair to mislead people who may throw away what I believe is a very good opportunity in their career to get great experience and, if they don't like the work, a very good name on their CV that they can use to move around the industry after their training contract expires.

lochie

seanieclarke wrote:

alright thanks for that.

is that the career office in your college?
how would they know about vacancies - do practices contact them directly?

Ya the practices contact most of the main colleges directly. The career office in our college was brilliant and so helpful. They still send emails letting us know of jobs that are available at the moment.

lochie

Newaglish wrote:

You can't just state as a fact that nobody gets paid for overtime and "trainees are treated badly". The only people I ever see with such negative attitudes towards the Big 4 are people who don't work there.

I think trainees are actually treated very well. The money is good (excluding your first year, which isn't even that bad), you're expected to work hard, sometimes long hours (which you get paid for) but you learn a lot and it's a real work hard/play hard attitude. I can see how some people working in audit would say that the work itself can be quite boring and repetetive and it can probably be pretty mind-numbing at times, but that's more the nature of audit and not the nature of the company itself.

I think it's very unfair to mislead people who may throw away what I believe is a very good opportunity in their career to get great experience and, if they don't like the work, a very good name on their CV that they can use to move around the industry after their training contract expires.

Look I am not getting into this debate. The OP asked for people's opinions and experiences. I simply stated what I was told from people who personally experienced this things. I am not dismissing your experiences but simply offering up what I know so please do no dismiss me.

I am not misleading the OP I am merely providing him with what I know and between everyone's posts he will be able to make his own informed decision.

Cantoris

dublad wrote:

Ok here goes im a final year student studying accounting & finance and the whole recruitment thing has already kicked off. So far everyone seems to be of the impression 'the Big4 is the place to be'.

I on the other hand have been thinking it'd be better to train in a small practice as I would get a better all rounded learning and then when the time comes think about moving onto one of the big 4 companies. I've heard stories where u just end up in one sector of the big 4 company, and ye ok you learn that area very well but some of the other areas you dont get much experience. In a small practice id be starting from the basics and doing everything right the way through to preparing the financial statements, wheres in the B4 i could be constantly just dealing with one area of the accounts.

So basically i was looking for some advice on what to apply for? Is what i have been told correct? or am I passing up an excellent chance to get in the door of one of the bigger companies?

Cheers

In order to get the most out of your experience in a big 4 you need to box clever. Make sure you know what each department does. If you want a general training then don't get into financial services department or purely manufacturing, IT departments. Try to get into the broadest audit department you can find. If a partner is interviewing you then find out what department they work in as you are generally (but not always) assigned to their department or to them.

Once you are in, make the most of it. Ticking and bashing in your first year is not great fun. And you will get paid for all your overtime, particularly if you are seen to be working hard and putting in the effort.....efficiently. I managed a group and only ever queried overtime when I knew that person was not efficient during the day.....on the phone, on the net or staring at the ceiling. Everyone esle put in a good effort and they progressed onto better jobs and other managers jobs as we tried to get them a broad experience. And that is how you get ahead.

I enjoyed my time in the big 4. I didn't particularly enjoy the work but I made the most of it, worked hard, got ahead of the posse and had an easier life as a result (when I wanted a week off during busy season I was given it, when I needed a day off to do the driving test etc I was given it and it wasn't taken out of my hols......there are other perks). It is not the same for everyone unfortunately as management are not as nice to all trainees but if you work hard for them they will look after you.

Running Bing

Sorry to bump a thread thats a month old but I am currently in a similiar situation i.e. Big 4 V Smaller practice.


The way I see it for career prospects, money, exam support and development of soft skill Big 4 is the way to go.


But I feel a smaller practice would be more beneficial experience and I feel I would be more suited to it and enjoy it more.


Is that pretty close to the mark? Would people agree with that. At the moment I am pretty torn. Although at the moment the exam support of the big four and the fact I dont want to dedicate my life to accounting is swaying me more towards Big 4.

tywy

How long does it normally take them to get back to you after the interview?

Newaglish

It really does vary, on average you'd expect something within the week but it could be up to the deadline, especially if a lot of people don't accept offers. Could also be within 24 hours as well!

I found everyone got back to me all within a day of each other which was a weird coincidence.

chump

Babybing wrote: »

Sorry to bump a thread thats a month old but I am currently in a similiar situation i.e. Big 4 V Smaller practice.


The way I see it for career prospects, money, exam support and development of soft skill Big 4 is the way to go.


But I feel a smaller practice would be more beneficial experience and I feel I would be more suited to it and enjoy it more.


Is that pretty close to the mark? Would people agree with that. At the moment I am pretty torn. Although at the moment the exam support of the big four and the fact I dont want to dedicate my life to accounting is swaying me more towards Big 4.

Well if you want (generalisations, but accurate generalisations)

more money
better exam support
larger peer group of similar ages
huge learning curve
opportunity to work abroad
opportunity for incredible career propects


and are prepared to
work hard most of the time
work long hours some of the time (varies a lot - typically 50-150hours overtime 1st and 2nd year)
not listen to small firm whingers dismiss your choice

then go big4

Personal opinion:
If you have been given the opportunity to work in da big four (six? possibly) - and you want an accounting qualification - you'd be insane to turn down the training contract