Want to convert but...

irishconvert

Assalam Alaikum everyone.

I am an Irish guy in his late 20's. I have almost decided that Islam is the right religion for me. I believe that there is one God and Muhammad is his messenger. But...there is one thing causing a problem, I drink alcohol. I have cut down quite a bit and drink a few pints approx once a month but I know I shouldn't be doing this. Because of this I have not formally converted, i.e. not made the declaration. Do you think I should wait until a time when I no longer drink alcohol before I convert? Or will making the step to convert and go to Mosque give me the kick up the backside I need to finally stop drinking?

Thanks for listening.

mmalaka

Congratulations and welcome to Islam world

I think u should do the step and convert, and in the Mosque for sure they would know how to help u to stop drinking

again Congratulations

Poco Loco

I am not a Muslim, so please pardon my ignorance if it appears I am being!

Can I ask - why does abstaining from alcohol make you a 'better' Muslim? Could you not be a devout Muslim and still drink once in a while? From my knowledge, Islam disapproves of alcohol as it can bring with it evil/wrong actions and thoughts. I accept this point. But what harm can one glass of wine with dinner do? Really? This isn't a challenge or me looking for an argument - I really just want to see what the logic is behind it.

OP - Do you not feel you would be Muslim until you gave up alcohol?

blackthorn

Wa alaikum asalam irishconvert

I think it would be worth your while to go the mosque (@ Clonskeagh maybe?) before you formally convert and have a chat with the Imam there and talk about this with him. Hopefully, that will make things easier for you.

DinoBot

irishconvert wrote:

Assalam Alaikum everyone.

I am an Irish guy in his late 20's. I have almost decided that Islam is the right religion for me. I believe that there is one God and Muhammad is his messenger. But...there is one thing causing a problem, I drink alcohol. I have cut down quite a bit and drink a few pints approx once a month but I know I shouldn't be doing this. Because of this I have not formally converted, i.e. not made the declaration. Do you think I should wait until a time when I no longer drink alcohol before I convert? Or will making the step to convert and go to Mosque give me the kick up the backside I need to finally stop drinking?

Thanks for listening.

I think you will face many challenges along your path as an Irish convert, drinking being one of them. But that said, why not convert and work on that aspect ?

I find it interesting that you feel Islam is correct, there is one God and Muhammad is his messenger and what it teaches is true, but somehow you feel because you have not formally converted you think its okay to drink ??
Do the rules of Islam not apply to you yet because you have not formally converted ?
Do you feel you will not be held accountable for any sin you commit until you convert ?

C_Breeze

Dont bother converting and just live your chosen lifestyle

BuffyBot

Do the rules of Islam not apply to you yet because you have not formally converted ?
Do you feel you will not be held accountable for any sin you commit until you convert ?

I think if one is to be technical about it, no.

Good advice from others though, go speak to someone. From what I believe though it's generally held to be better to revert and work on your issues after that than put it off because of them

DinoBot

BuffyBot wrote:

I think if one is to be technical about it, no.

I know where your coming from but with that logic you are better NOT converting and do it on your death bed

the_new_mr

Wa Alaykom Al Salam wa Rahmat Allah wa Barkatu

Hello irishconvert and welcome to the Islam forum. Allow me to congratulate you on your decision and may God guide you, me and everyone to the right path.

Sorry for the delay in my answer. I saw your post yesterday and was just about to reply but I thought I'd better ask a scholar first to see what he had to say about it before carrying the responsibility of giving you an incorrect opinion.

Anyway, the scholar confirmed my original opinion which was already mentioned here by mmalaka and that is to go ahead and embrace Islam and then, God willing, you'll give up the drink.

It's worth remembering that alcohol was not actually forbidden in one go during the early years of Islam and it was a gradual thing. Having said that, it's also worth remembering that upon embracing Islam, all your bad deeds are wiped out and you start your account of bad deeds anew from the moment you say the shahada so try your best to give it up as soon as possible and, God willing, you'll be able to.

Hope to hear from you again soon and, if it's not too much trouble or too personal, I'd love to hear the details about how you came to your decision.

Let me just say that it makes me so happy to hear of stories like this. Really makes my day/week/month

the_new_mr

To answer your question in brief Poco Loco, Muslims believe that God has forbidden alcohol and so therefore we should abstain from it. A verse from the Quran:

Al-Baqara:219
"They will ask thee about intoxicants and games of chance. Say: "In both there is great evil as well as some benefit for man; but the evil which they cause is greater than the benefit which they bring." And they will ask thee as to what they should spend [in God's cause]. Say: "Whatever you can spare." In this way God makes clear unto you His messages, so that you might reflect"

Al-Maida:90-91
O you who have attained to faith! Intoxicants, and games of chance, and idolatrous practices, and the divining of the future are but a loathsome evil of Satan's doing:' shun it, then, so that you might attain to a happy state!; By means of intoxicants and games of chance Satan seeks only to sow enmity and hatred among you, and to turn you away from the remembrance of God and from prayer. Will you not, then, desist?'

God knows, none of us are angels but we should all make the best effort not to sin especially when it comes to major sins.

DinoBot wrote:

I know where your coming from but with that logic you are better NOT converting and do it on your death bed

I know you're not being completely serious about it but it's worth mentioning that that kind of conversion is not really okay. The Pharaoh who chased after Moses (peace be upon him) in the red sea and was subsequently drowned was stubborn to the very end until the moment when he realised that death was upon him.

Yunus:90-92
And We brought the children of Israel across the sea; and thereupon Pharaoh and his hosts pursued them with vehement insolence and tyranny, until [they were overwhelmed by the waters of the sea. And] when he was about to drown, [Pharaoh] exclaimed: "I have come to believe that there is no deity save Him in whom the children of Israel believe, and I am of those who surrender themselves unto Him!; [But God said:] "Now? -when ever before this thou hast been rebelling [against Us], and hast been among those who spread corruption?; [Nay,] but today We shall save only thy body, so that thou mayest be a [warning] sign unto those who will come after thee: for, behold, a good many people are heedless of Our messages!""

I'm not necessarily saying that if you convert on your death bed then it won't be accepted (granted, the Pharaoh was a tyrant) but, if someone is already convinced, why delay?

irishconvert

Poco Loco wrote: »

I am not a Muslim, so please pardon my ignorance if it appears I am being!

Can I ask - why does abstaining from alcohol make you a 'better' Muslim?

I suppose so, another way of looking at it is you are a bad Muslim if you drink alcohol

Poco Loco wrote: »

Could you not be a devout Muslim and still drink once in a while?

Nope!

Poco Loco wrote: »

From my knowledge, Islam disapproves of alcohol as it can bring with it evil/wrong actions and thoughts. I accept this point. But what harm can one glass of wine with dinner do?

One drink leads to another as they say! And many drink leads to trouble! Have you ever walked around Temple Bar or any town in Ireland late on a weekend evening. Look at all the trouble alcohol creates. Look at all the posts in the Personal Issues forum. Whenever anyone writes about cheates on their partner they always follow it up with "I was drunk" or something similar.

Poco Loco wrote: »

OP - Do you not feel you would be Muslim until you gave up alcohol?

No, I feel I am a Muslim already but I feel I would be a hypocrite if I formally converted yet was doing something which is so against Islam

DinoBot wrote: »

I think you will face many challenges along your path as an Irish convert, drinking being one of them. But that said, why not convert and work on that aspect ?

It is an option alright, one I am considering.

DinoBot wrote: »

I find it interesting that you feel Islam is correct, there is one God and Muhammad is his messenger and what it teaches is true, but somehow you feel because you have not formally converted you think its okay to drink ??
Do the rules of Islam not apply to you yet because you have not formally converted ?

That's not the way I feel, I feel that alcohol causes a lot more harm than good, but being an Irish man who has drank all this life, has friends & family who all drink, etc etc, it is very difficult to give it up altogether.

DinoBot wrote: »

Do you feel you will not be held accountable for any sin you commit until you convert ?

I think if I was to purposely put off converting so I could continue drinking then I would be commiting a sin. But that is not what I am doing, I don't feel it is right to formally convert while I am leading an unislamic way of life

the_new_mr wrote: »

Wa Alaykom Al Salam wa Rahmat Allah wa Barkatu

Hello irishconvert and welcome to the Islam forum. Allow me to congratulate you on your decision and may God guide you, me and everyone to the right path.

Thanks :-)

the_new_mr wrote: »

Sorry for the delay in my answer. I saw your post yesterday and was just about to reply but I thought I'd better ask a scholar first to see what he had to say about it before carrying the responsibility of giving you an incorrect opinion.

Anyway, the scholar confirmed my original opinion which was already mentioned here by mmalaka and that is to go ahead and embrace Islam and then, God willing, you'll give up the drink.

It's worth remembering that alcohol was not actually forbidden in one go during the early years of Islam and it was a gradual thing.

Yeah I am reading the Qur'an but haven't got to the part where alcohol is banned yet!

the_new_mr wrote: »

Having said that, it's also worth remembering that upon embracing Islam, all your bad deeds are wiped out and you start your account of bad deeds anew from the moment you say the shahada so try your best to give it up as soon as possible and, God willing, you'll be able to.

Hope to hear from you again soon and, if it's not too much trouble or too personal, I'd love to hear the details about how you came to your decision.

Let's just there was a woman involved!

the_new_mr wrote: »

Let me just say that it makes me so happy to hear of stories like this. Really makes my day/week/month

Eid Mubarak

irishconvert

irishconvert wrote:

One drink leads to another as they say!

No it doesn't, and she said one glass with dinner...


Anyway, good luck with your converting/reverting.

the_new_mr

Hi again irishconvert! Glad you came back. I was very curious to know how things progressed with you.

Whilst reading your post, I remembered a hadith (saying/tradition) of the Prophet Mohamed (peace be upon him). It's one of the most famous ones. Here's a link.

The hadith mentions the difference between Al-Islam and Al-Iman. Personally, I think that as long as you truly believe that there is no god but God Himself and that Mohamed is His messenger then you are somehow being dishonest to your soul by not doing the final step.

Being a Muslim is not about being an angel. We all sin from time to time and we should all accept it. That doesn't excuse our actions but I just wanted to get that idea across because some people feel that when they become Muslim, they should have angelic-like qualities. Nobody's perfect. God knows I'm not. We all sin but we should also ask for God's forgiveness. With striving and effort, it is possible to make it so that you commit sins of less severity and less frequently and still ask for forgiveness for the sins that you do commit but it's a process and that has to be appreciated I think. Rome wasn't built in a day as they say

When alcohol was finally forbidden completely, the Muslims of the time had spent a considerable amount of time building in faith so that when it was finally prohibited, some people were able to do it easily enough. For example, Umar Ibn Al Khattab (one of the companions of the Prophet) upon hearing the verse forbidding alcohol:

Al-Maida:90-91
"O you who have attained to faith! Intoxicants, and games of chance, and idolatrous practices, and the divining of the future are but a loathsome evil of Satan's doing:' shun it, then, so that you might attain to a happy state!; By means of intoxicants and games of chance Satan seeks only to sow enmity and hatred among you, and to turn you away from the remembrance of God and from prayer. Will you not, then, desist?"

Umar Ibn Al-Khattab was holding a bottle of wine and threw it to the ground shouting "I desist, I desist!"

I don't mean to make anyone feel guilty for not having faith as strong as that but you get the picture. It's about appreciating what's really important and getting the perspectives right.

I know that God understands your situation concerning alcohol and how you were brought in a culture such as that of Ireland where alcohol is part and parcel of the way of life. But you can be Irish and not drink. I am And it's worth noting that God really loves it when you give up something you like for His sake and its reward is huge.

So, we come back to the issue of why delaying something you already believe in? If the heart is convinced and the mind is at rest with it then only the tongue needs to finalise it.

Keep us posted!

orestes

I don't understand the problem man.

Instead of living your life in the way that a specific doctrine tells you, why don't you just live the way you feel and believe to be right? Do you believe that the odd drink now and again makes you a bad person? If so, then don't drink, but if not then why shouldn't you have a drink if you want one just because a specific belief system says you shouldn't?

the_new_mr

It's quite simple really. If you believe that the Quran is the literal word of God and you know that the Quran tells you not to drink alcohol then you feel that you shouldn't. Of course, none of us are angels and we all sin from time to time but we should try our best efforts not to and make it so that at least when we do sin, they're not major sins (like murder, adultery etc).

What's news by the way irishconvert?

estebancambias

Instead of living your life in the way that a specific doctrine tells you, why don't you just live the way you feel and believe to be right? Do you believe that the odd drink now and again makes you a bad person? If so, then don't drink, but if not then why shouldn't you have a drink if you want one just because a specific belief system says you shouldn't?

I'm Catholic, and this is a good but common question(s). It's not so much about morals(i.e I will never touch alcohol as I believe it is bad. Now nowhere in the bible is this said, but that does not mean I will convert to Muslim because of this. I believe in the teachings of the bible, this is what primarly matters)

Kotek Besar

Wa'Salam irishconvert,

I know exactly what you're going through. I'm a convert myself. I'm a British convert muslim, living in Ireland. (do you think I'm popular ). Just joking. But seriously, I do know how you feel. I also stopped drinking, slowly. I converted maybe 2 or 3 years ago, and stopped drinking completely only about 6 months ago. Now, I'm not saying that it's a good idea to follow in my footsteps, but this is was what I did: Basically, my wife and I concentrated on spending a lot of time together, "quality time" I suppose, going out for a meal, whatever really. Just things that don't involve drinking. With time you just don't miss it. It's not "the done thing" anymore. It's also about the company you keep I suppose. I have a lot more muslim friends now. So stands to reason, take yourself out of the situation where there's drink - and you won't drink. That said, I've by no means lost contact with, or stopped seeing my non-muslim friends. My best mate in England who I went to school with is still my best mate. We still meet up when we can, and it's all good. He'll have a pint, I'll have a coke, and that is now the norm and I don't notice the difference. Now I wouldn't think of drinking. It's just not part of my routine any more. I'm not a scholar (by any means), and I can't give you any better advice than the excellent other posters on this thread have given. I just want to share with you what I did. God knows what is in your heart, remember that.

Suff

Have you tried the non-Alcoholic beer? you can get Clausthaler, St. Pauli Non-Alcoholic, Cobra, Holsten or you can start on Erdinger which has %0.5 of alcohol. or you can try Barbican which is sold in most Indian shops in dublin and in the mosque.
try this link:
http://www.alcoholfree.co.uk/

Boston

Suff wrote: »

Have you tried the non-Alcoholic beer? you can get Clausthaler, St. Pauli Non-Alcoholic, Cobra, Holsten or you can start on Erdinger which has %0.5 of alchohol. or you can try Barbican which is sold in most Indian shops in dublin and in the mosque.
try this link:
http://www.alcoholfree.co.uk/

Even non-Alcoholic beer contains trace amounts of alcohol.

Suff

Boston wrote: »

Even non-Alcoholic beer contains trace amounts of alcohol.

That's true, they contain between %0.05 to %0.5. some of the above beers contains %0.0 like barbican. I dont know the authenticity of this: Orange and apple juice both have trace amounts of alcohol.

Boston

Suff wrote: »

That's true, they contain between %0.05 to %0.5. some of the above beers contains %0.0 like barbican. I dont know the authenticity of this: Orange and apple juice both have trace amounts of alcohol.

If some value is 0.04 or less then it is fully acceptable to call that 0.0 when rounded.

Rev Hellfire

Is the ban on Alcoholic consumption purely in relation to its use in a social context and with issue of inebriation in particular?

For example I assume (and have been informed) it is valid to use medication which has an alcoholic content when say prescribed by a doctor?
Is its use in cooking permitted in small volumes where there is no risk inebriation?

InFront

Rev Hellfire wrote: »

Is the ban on Alcoholic consumption purely in relation to its use in a social context

Alcohol is also considered by some to be physically impure to touch. I'm not certain about that one personally, but if in doubt, the safest thing to do is just avoid. Alcohol swabs is one I'd like to know more about, however.

For example I assume (and have been informed) it is valid to use medication which has an alcoholic content when say prescribed by a doctor?

Not if there's another medication available which is just as good or better than the medication containing alcohol as far as I know.

Is its use in cooking permitted in small volumes where there is no risk inebriation?

No because presumably that would involve purchasing alcohol or supporting its sale. It's better just to avoid it altogether.
http://www.islamonline.net/servlet/Satellite?pagename=IslamOnline-English-Ask_Scholar/FatwaE/FatwaE&cid=1119503543948

CaptainNemo

Not sure why I'm poking my nose in here but unless I'm very much mistaken the adjurations from the Qu'ran that people have given here are against intoxication and the use of alcohol as an intoxicant, not against the substance itself or its use in for example medicines.

I am not Muslim but I've been in a religious movement with a very restricted diet and people used to tie themselves up in knots over whether or not a certain thing they were about to eat contained trace amounts of e.g. sugar or an animal product like rennet. After a while I realized that if you had to think very hard about whether or not something was forbidden and why, then it probably didn't matter too much.

Alcohol is a bit of a social epidemic in Ireland and England and other places and I can't disagree with any religion that tells its followers to avoid it. However I believe in the "spirit" of the law rather than the letter if you know what I mean...

BuffyBot

I'm very much mistaken the adjurations from the Qu'ran that people have given here are against intoxication and the use of alcohol as an intoxicant, not against the substance itself or its use in for example medicines.

Again, like most things, it varies on who you read. Some scholars interpret it as being 100% forbidden, and some have said it's ok in medications you don't consume etc.

the_new_mr

Good points from a lot of people.

We had a looooooong discussion about this in another thread a while back.

With respect to things like trace amounts of alcohol in foods and medicines, I think the following verse is relevant.

Al-Barara:185
"It was the month of Ramadan in which the Qur'an was [first] bestowed from on high as a guidance unto man and a self-evident proof of that guidance, and as the standard by which to discern the true from the false. Hence, whoever of you lives to see this month shall fast throughout it; but he that is ill, or on a journey, [shall fast instead for the same] number of other days. God wills that you shall have ease, and does not will you to suffer hardship; but [He desires] that you complete the number [of days required], and that you extol God for His having guided you aright, and that you render your thanks [unto Him]."

It's important to remember too that God rewards those who are patient.

Al-Imran: 135-136
"and who, when they have committed a shameful deed or have [otherwise] sinned against themselves, remember God and pray that their sins be forgiven - for who but God could forgive sins? - and do not knowingly persist in doing whatever [wrong] they may have done.; These it is who shall have as their reward forgiveness from their Sustainer, and gardens through which running waters flow, therein to abide: and how excellent a reward for those who labour!"

And also to remember that, with every hardship, comes a relief.

Al-Sharh:5
"And, behold, with every hardship comes ease:"

the_new_mr

Must you use that avatar captain nemo? I think people would appreciate it if you didn't.

Shinto

There isn't a shred of scientific evidence for the existance of a magic man. Hundreds of years ago they were ignorant of germ theory....if someone died they said it must have been the will of the magic man. They were ignorant of plate techtonics....if the ground shook and killed people then it must have been the will of the magic man. A book written a few hundred years ago by a sheep farmer isn't worth the paper its written on.

My advice is for you to get an education....you seriously need to read some modern points of view ("the god delusion" by richard dawkins, "god is not great" by Christopher Hitchens, "the end of faith" by sam harris)...these books are much better than one written by ignorant sheep farmers from the middle ages.

Of course, simple minds will proclaim these books to be great...but the 5 year old kids i teach also proclaim that the "teletubbies" is a great TV programme. Simple minds....simple books.

Humans have a great ability to argue petty little points till the cows go home...look at the bigger picture and question Religion and Spirituality itself.

Kotek Besar

Shinto wrote: »

There isn't a shred of scientific evidence for the existance of a magic man. Hundreds of years ago they were ignorant of germ theory....if someone died they said it must have been the will of the magic man. They were ignorant of plate techtonics....if the ground shook and killed people then it must have been the will of the magic man. A book written a few hundred years ago by a sheep farmer isn't worth the paper its written on.

My advice is for you to get an education....you seriously need to read some modern points of view ("the god delusion" by richard dawkins, "god is not great" by Christopher Hitchens, "the end of faith" by sam harris)...these books are much better than one written by ignorant sheep farmers from the middle ages.

Of course, simple minds will proclaim these books to be great...but the 5 year old kids i teach also proclaim that the "teletubbies" is a great TV programme. Simple minds....simple books.

Humans have a great ability to argue petty little points till the cows go home...look at the bigger picture and question Religion and Spirituality itself.

Unsurprising to read this, judging by your location.

the_syco

irishconvert wrote: »

Whenever anyone writes about cheates on their partner they always follow it up with "I was drunk" or something similar.

When one is weak, they do stupid things. When one is weak, they blame everything but themselves. Weak people will not be able to say "no" when they've had enough, but will keep on drinking.

benifa wrote: »

Unsurprising to read this, judging by your location.

Care to explain? Their soul, not their location, decides ones fate.

Kotek Besar

the_syco wrote: »

..Care to explain? Their soul, not their location, decides ones fate.

Yes, and I agree with you. What I meant was, that sometimes living among those who don't believe in God can cause people to come out with awful things like this. I've seen it happen before. Anyway, I hope God will forgive my writing that, if it came across in the wrong way. Also, I hope that Shinto is pardoned and led to the right path.