Want to convert but...

Kotek Besar

Hero Of College wrote: »

..There is no compulsion in Religion, and he who believeth shall be saved.

Nail on head. Do you believe?

DinoBot

Hero Of College wrote: »

Why does Isslamm receive these converts with such gusto, after all, Jesus and Moses are prophets in the eyes of the Koran, and both preached:

1. I am the Lord Your God, Who Brought You Out Of The Lands of Egypt, Do Not Place Other Gods Before Me.

NOW....assuming that Islam reveres Moses as a Prophet, and Moses gave this commandment, and CHristians who convert {revert, whatever:rolleyes:} in fact break this commandment, then how does Islam regard these converts? As trustworthy? Afterall, those who have strayed once will stray again, no??

How does Islam reconcile this breach of faith and trust by the convert with its own Reverence of Jesus and Moses, given that the Convert has gone against the word of those held in high esteem by Islam?

Or is it a convenience of modern life that the convert is welcomed in, merely to bolster the flock???

I think if you put a little thought into your question you would see the answer yourself :rolleyes:

But..............how are the people breaking the commandment. By converting to Islam they are not putting another god in place of the god of Moses. Its the same god.
In Islam the god that Moses speaks of is the same god Jeuses speaks of and is the same one Mohammad speaks of.
So, whats your point/question ?

Hero Of College

DinoBot wrote: »

I think if you put a little thought into your question you would see the answer yourself :rolleyes:

But..............how are the people breaking the commandment. By converting to Islam they are not putting another god in place of the god of Moses. Its the same god.
In Islam the god that Moses speaks of is the same god Jeuses speaks of and is the same one Mohammad speaks of.
So, whats your point/question ?

So, I am already a Muslim, though I do not regard Mohammed as holy?

DinoBot

Hero Of College wrote: »

So, I am already a Muslim, though I do not regard Mohammed as holy?

You are muslim and you have asked the question if reverts can be trusted ??

I dont get your question then. What is it ?

Hero Of College

DinoBot wrote: »

You are muslim and you have asked the question if reverts can be trusted ??

I dont get your question then. What is it ?

#1. I am not Muslim.

#2. Even if I was, what makes you think I am of the "REVERTED" type?

#3. If the God of Moses is the God of Mohammed, then the Christians must be Muslims and the Muslims must be Christians, no???

DinoBot

Hero Of College wrote: »

#1. I am not Muslim.

#2. Even if I was, what makes you think I am of the "REVERTED" type?

#3. If the God of Moses is the God of Mohammed, then the Christians must be Muslims and the Muslims must be Christians, no???

Ok, its quite simple. There is only one god. The god of the bible and quran is the same god. The Jews follow the old testament (Torah), the Christians follow the bible (collection of old and new) and Muslims follow the quran.

All three books speak about the same god. So Ill assume your christian. So just because you belief the old testament is from god does not make you jewish. See it ?

Hero Of College

DinoBot wrote: »

You are muslim and you have asked the question if reverts can be trusted ??

I dont get your question then. What is it ?

I am NOT a Muslim, and never will be.

I am a Christian.

I am asking, if the God of Moses and the God of Mohammed are the same Deity {of course Moses wasn't around to contradict Mohammed:rolleyes:} then surely, I am, according to your reasoning, already a Muslim....which we know I am not.

By the way, the use of the word "revert" is a little rich, to say the least. How does Islam reconcile the command of God via Moses, not to place other Gods before Him??

What use is a convert to Islam if the convert has already broken the rule of the God of Moses, that God and Allah being the same thing?

Or are conversions just a convenient social and political too, which have nothing to do with "God"???

DinoBot

Hero Of College wrote: »

I am NOT a Muslim, and never will be.

I am a Christian.

I am asking, if the God of Moses and the God of Mohammed are the same Deity {of course Moses wasn't around to contradict Mohammed:rolleyes:} then surely, I am, according to your reasoning, already a Muslim....which we know I am not.

By the way, the use of the word "revert" is a little rich, to say the least. How does Islam reconcile the command of God via Moses, not to place other Gods before Him??

What use is a convert to Islam if the convert has already broken the rule of the God of Moses, that God and Allah being the same thing?

Or are conversions just a convenient social and political too, which have nothing to do with "God"???

So you are Christian, but by your logic you should be Jewish. Moses was a Jew and was speaking of god well before Jesus. So if you are Christian you have put the god of Jesus before the god of Moses. How do you reconcile the command of God via Moses, not to place other Gods before him to yourself ?

Kotek Besar

Hero Of College wrote: »

I am NOT a Muslim, and never will be.

You were, when you were born.

Hero Of College wrote: »

I am asking, if the God of Moses and the God of Mohammed are the same Deity {of course Moses wasn't around to contradict Mohammed:rolleyes:} then surely, I am, according to your reasoning, already a Muslim....which we know I am not.

See previous answer.

Hero Of College wrote: »

By the way, the use of the word "revert" is a little rich, to say the least. How does Islam reconcile the command of God via Moses, not to place other Gods before Him??

What use is a convert to Islam if the convert has already broken the rule of the God of Moses, that God and Allah being the same thing?

Or are conversions just a convenient social and political too, which have nothing to do with "God"???

I think you're misunderstanding something vital here. There is only one god. Please excuse the term "revert", I agree it can come across condescending and I know it rubs people up the wrong way sometimes, but it's not intended. Perhaps folks should just use the word "convert", or even "change".

A muslim, by definition, is a person or other creation who submits to the will of God. A flower is a muslim, a fish is a muslim and every baby born is a muslim. Anything that is behaving as God intended, is a muslim. As humans, we are God's slaves. We are here to act as required by God, we are to submit to Him and Him alone. There is only one God, who created the heavens, the earth and all in between.

We are to learn from the teachings of all the messengers of God, of whom there have been many, including Noah, Moses, Jesus (who was sent by God as a saviour to mankind, born to the virgin Mary), and the last messenger, Mohammed.

I know you are a Christian, and that's fine, for that is the life you choose to lead and the religion you choose to follow. You don't have to accept Islam. The fact that you're interested enough to ask these questions is already good enough. Christians, especially Catholics, believe in many of the same "rules of thumb", shall we say, as muslims do. One might even go as far as to say that Islam and Christianity are two sects of the same religion, like Catholicism and Protestantism. Sometimes, when I'm driving, I notice people going into or coming out of a church and I smile happily, for these are people who believe in one true God, and are worshipping Him.

What I'm trying to say is, you call yourself a Christian, I call myself a muslim. We're both creations of God, we both believe in the messengers of God including Jesus Christ and his miraculous conception, and that he is a saviour to mankind. We both worship the one God and we both believe that there is no other God but Him, and that when we die we must answer to Him and beg forgiveness for our sins, before entering heaven. We both are residents in beautiful Ireland and pay taxes, drive our cars and do our shopping at Tescos.

Sorry to be long winded, but do you get my point? All men are as equal as the teeth of a comb. That includes man's creator and sustainer.

Hero Of College

DinoBot wrote: »

Ok, its quite simple. There is only one god. The god of the bible and quran is the same god. The Jews follow the old testament (Torah), the Christians follow the bible (collection of old and new) and Muslims follow the quran.

All three books speak about the same god. So Ill assume your christian. So just because you belief the old testament is from god does not make you jewish. See it ?

Yes I see it.

But what I don't see is the need to convert.

We must all eat breakfast as part of a healthy daily routine. I eat cornflakes, you eat porridge and the Jewish guy eats rice krispies. We all ate breakfast, just in a different way.

Is it safe to say that the Jewish guy is going to have a bad day because he had rice krispies?

LIkewise, we all believe in the same God. So why the need for conversions/reversions/inversions/diversions etc.

DinoBot

Hero Of College wrote: »

Yes I see it.

But what I don't see is the need to convert.

We must all eat breakfast as part of a healthy daily routine. I eat cornflakes, you eat porridge and the Jewish guy eats rice krispies. We all ate breakfast, just in a different way.

Is it safe to say that the Jewish guy is going to have a bad day because he had rice krispies?

LIkewise, we all believe in the same God. So why the need for conversions/reversions/inversions/diversions etc.

In a nice fluffy world all three religions believe inthe same god but in reality its very very different.
At its core level Christians are very far from Islam in that they beleive Jesus is the son of god (and is god) Thats 100% opposite to what Islam can say about the nature of god. And very very different to the Jewish world view as well. You cannot hold that belief and be Muslim. Hence the need to revert.

Hero Of College

benifa wrote: »

You were, when you were born.


See previous answer.


I think you're misunderstanding something vital here. There is only one god. Please excuse the term "revert", I agree it can come across condescending and I know it rubs people up the wrong way sometimes, but it's not intended. Perhaps folks should just use the word "convert", or even "change".

A muslim, by definition, is a person or other creation who submits to the will of God. A flower is a muslim, a fish is a muslim and every baby born is a muslim. Anything that is behaving as God intended, is a muslim. As humans, we are God's slaves. We are here to act as required by God, we are to submit to Him and Him alone. There is only one God, who created the heavens, the earth and all in between.

We are to learn from the teachings of all the messengers of God, of whom there have been many, including Noah, Moses, Jesus (who was sent by God as a saviour to mankind, born to the virgin Mary), and the last messenger, Mohammed.

I know you are a Christian, and that's fine, for that is the life you choose to lead and the religion you choose to follow. You don't have to accept Islam. The fact that you're interested enough to ask these questions is already good enough. Christians, especially Catholics, believe in many of the same "rules of thumb", shall we say, as muslims do. One might even go as far as to say that Islam and Christianity are two sects of the same religion, like Catholicism and Protestantism. Sometimes, when I'm driving, I notice people going into or coming out of a church and I smile happily, for these are people who believe in one true God, and are worshipping Him.

What I'm trying to say is, you call yourself a Christian, I call myself a muslim. We're both creations of God, we both believe in the messengers of God including Jesus Christ and his miraculous conception, and that he is a saviour to mankind. We both worship the one God and we both believe that there is no other God but Him, and that when we die we must answer to Him and beg forgiveness for our sins, before entering heaven. We both are residents in beautiful Ireland and pay taxes, drive our cars and do our shopping at Tescos.

Sorry to be long winded, but do you get my point? All men are as equal as the teeth of a comb. That includes man's creator and sustainer.

Indeed I get your point, but by suggesting that I was "born Muslim" I feel somewhat taken aback. I was born and Christened. Are you suggesting that my Christening was some sort of a step backwards, or a step to the side?

Kotek Besar

Hero Of College wrote: »

Indeed I get your point, but by suggesting that I was "born Muslim" I feel somewhat taken aback. I was born and Christened. Are you suggesting that my Christening was some sort of a step backwards, or a step to the side?

You were born a muslim, because a muslim, by definition, is something that submits to the will of God. It was the will of God that your mother became pregnant and gave birth to you, and when you cried, drank milk, slept - you were doing all as God willed. If you were Christened as a baby, this was not your decision. At this time you were still behaving as God willed.

Some say that when children become older and learn how to think for themselves and to make decisions right over wrong, they able to choose their own path. This is the time they either continue to behave as God wills, or not.

philologos

DinoBot wrote: »

So you are Christian, but by your logic you should be Jewish. Moses was a Jew and was speaking of god well before Jesus. So if you are Christian you have put the god of Jesus before the god of Moses. How do you reconcile the command of God via Moses, not to place other Gods before him to yourself ?

Christianity is also seen as a continuation of Judaism. So Moses is just as much a figure to us as he is to the Jews.

Hero Of College

benifa wrote: »

You were born a muslim, because a muslim, by definition, is something that submits to the will of God. It was the will of God that your mother became pregnant and gave birth to you, and when you cried, drank milk, slept - you were doing all as God willed. If you were Christened as a baby, this was not your decision. At this time you were still behaving as God willed.

Some say that when children become older and learn how to think for themselves and to make decisions right over wrong, they able to choose their own path. This is the time they either continue to behave as God wills, or not.

But why does Islam have to be the final say? I am my fathers son, and I am my mother son, I am their son....not just the son of one or the other- but both why can I not be born because Jesus wishes it, and thus be Christian upon birth? Since when did the Islamic interpretation take precedence?? Do my parents stray from the path by baptising me in the name of Jesus Christ? Do they cease to be "Muslims" by deciding to Christen me, despite the fact that as part of the ceremony they "reject Satan and all his pomps"?? To be honest, and not wanting to offend you, this smacks of Dhimmi status.

DinoBot

Hero Of College wrote: »

But why does Islam have to be the final say? I am my fathers son, and I am my mother son, I am their son....not just the son of one or the other- but both why can I not be born because Jesus wishes it, and thus be Christian upon birth? Since when did the Islamic interpretation take precedence?? Do my parents stray from the path by baptising me in the name of Jesus Christ? Do they cease to be "Muslims" by deciding to Christen me, despite the fact that as part of the ceremony they "reject Satan and all his pomps"?? To be honest, and not wanting to offend you, this smacks of Dhimmi status.

Why would the term Dhimmi offend ??

Your questioning confuses me tbh.
Is it not the state of all religions to claim to have the ultimate right to Gods favor. Do you not feel that the only way is through Jesus. In fact you started off this topic with the question of why muslims put other gods in front of the god of moses. As if the muslims god is in fact something different, a different god.

Its quite simple, if you follow the teachings of a religion you are of that faith. If you dont your not. Whats the confusion ?

Hero Of College

DinoBot wrote: »

Why would the term Dhimmi offend ??

Your questioning confuses me tbh.
Is it not the state of all religions to claim to have the ultimate right to Gods favor. Do you not feel that the only way is through Jesus. In fact you started off this topic with the question of why muslims put other gods in front of the god of moses. As if the muslims god is in fact something different, a different god.

Its quite simple, if you follow the teachings of a religion you are of that faith. If you dont your not. Whats the confusion ?

Come on, Dhimmi status usually means 2nd Class Citizen. As it happens, I meant I didn't mean to offend by using it in a suggestive fashion. In otherwords, i wasn't suggesting that anybody here regarded me as "dhimmi.

DinoBot

Hero Of College wrote: »

Come on, Dhimmi status usually means 2nd Class Citizen. As it happens, I meant I didn't mean to offend by using it in a suggestive fashion. In otherwords, i wasn't suggesting that anybody here regarded me as "dhimmi.

Still don't see you question or point really ?? Are you asking if your parents stray from the path by baptising you in the name of Jesus Christ?

According to Islam, YES

Do they cease to be "Muslims" by deciding to Christen you despite the fact that as part of the ceremony they "reject Satan and all his pomps"??

According to Islam, YES

Does it smack of Dhimmi status.

NO

I dont think your parents are paying tax to anyone for this, are they ?? In what way is it a 2nd Class Citizen not to be muslim ?

You love to use Islamic terms to give the illusion of Knowledge, but you posts betray you young fella :-)

Hero Of College

DinoBot wrote: »

Still don't see you question or point really ?? Are you asking if your parents stray from the path by baptising you in the name of Jesus Christ?

According to Islam, YES

Do they cease to be "Muslims" by deciding to Christen you despite the fact that as part of the ceremony they "reject Satan and all his pomps"??

According to Islam, YES

Does it smack of Dhimmi status.

NO

I dont think your parents are paying tax to anyone for this, are they ?? In what way is it a 2nd Class Citizen not to be muslim ?

You love to use Islamic terms to give the illusion of Knowledge, but you posts betray you young fella :-)

The very finding of fault with processes Christians feel as normal is in and of itself derogatory. Islam finds fault or mistake with others just for being, well, others. Thats hardly the recipe for detente and peaceful co-existence. We have a similar situation within Christianity where Priests said non-baptised Children who died went to "Limbo". According to you, my parents did wrong in your eyes by baptising me. Both situations are intolerable. Muslims, therefore, by your logic, find theological fault with Christians because they, are, well....Christians

This is hardly conducive towards peace and harmony.

philologos

Do Muslims not think that Jesus was baptized by John the Baptist? Or do Muslims not think that what is said in John 3 about being born again of the water and the Spirit is actually what Jesus said?

This interests me, if anyone could answer it'd be appreciated.

DinoBot

Hero Of College wrote: »

The very finding of fault with processes Christians feel as normal is in and of itself derogatory. Islam finds fault or mistake with others just for being, well, others. Thats hardly the recipe for detente and peaceful co-existence. We have a similar situation within Christianity where Priests said non-baptised Children who died went to "Limbo". According to you, my parents did wrong in your eyes by baptising me. Both situations are intolerable. Muslims, therefore, by your logic, find theological fault with Christians because they, are, well....Christians

This is hardly conducive towards peace and harmony.

Your right. If only all muslims could be more like christians the problem would be solved

I dont think difference in belief in and of itself causes problems. Its how we deal with these differences. According to Christians Muslims are wrong and to muslims christians are wrong. Is that not religion ?
If you thought muslims were right you would be muslim. You dont so your not.

whats your solution for better relations between faiths ?

philologos

DinoBot wrote: »

According to Christians Muslims are wrong and to muslims christians are wrong. Is that not religion ?
If you thought muslims were right you would be muslim. You dont so your not.

You'd be surprised at the similarities between Christianity and Islam. But at the same time the differences are what define us I guess.

irishconvert

Hero Of College wrote: »

LIkewise, we all believe in the same God. So why the need for conversions/reversions/inversions/diversions etc.

But we don't all believe in the same god. You, as a Christian, believe that Jesus is God, don't you? We don't believe that. We believe that Jesus was a messenger of God, not God or a son of God.

Kotek Besar

irishconvert wrote: »

But we don't all believe in the same god. You, as a Christian, believe that Jesus is God, don't you? We don't believe that. We believe that Jesus was a messenger of God, not God or a son of God.

Right, I'm confused here. I too had a Christian upbringing. I was raised in the UK and went to Church of England schools. I never learnt that, according to Christianity, Jesus was God. I was taught that Jesus was the son of God.

It's strange but, since converting to Islam, I've consistently heard that Christians believe that Jesus is God, but this is contradictory to what I learnt as a Christian child.

Just a thought, but could it be a difference between Church of England Christianity and Catholicism Christianity?

philologos

Hm, I'm an Anglican, and I believe that Christ was a part of God yes. The Bible says that he was the Word of God (John 1). It's a huge part of Trinitarian theology that God is made up of Father, Son and Holy Spirit.

As for being a child. There was much of Christianity that only really dawned on my through the last few years. I'm 18 now, I doubted Christianity heavily during my teenage years, but I understand it totally now. I guess the Bible was written for an adult audience.

DinoBot

benifa wrote: »

Right, I'm confused here. I too had a Christian upbringing. I was raised in the UK and went to Church of England schools. I never learnt that, according to Christianity, Jesus was God. I was taught that Jesus was the son of God.

It's strange but, since converting to Islam, I've consistently heard that Christians believe that Jesus is God, but this is contradictory to what I learnt as a Christian child.

Just a thought, but could it be a difference between Church of England Christianity and Catholicism Christianity?

i think you must not have payed attention in Sunday school

http://www.cofe.anglican.org/faith/christian/

philologos

It's part of every mainline Christian tradition. Catholicism, Anglicanism, Methodism, Presbyterianism they all supported the Trinity. The Trinity came into being after the Council of Nicea, when the Nicene Creed was formed. The doctrine came as a result of key passages in the Bible however.

Isolated groups such as the Jehovahs Witnesses, Christedelphians etc do not believe that Christ is God.

In the early church heretical groups such as the Nazarenes and the Ebionites also held the view that Christ was a prophet. (I think Muhammad was actually married to an Ebionite Christian at one point? maybe someone could check up on this).

Hero Of College

Well apparently the alleged "inability" of Khalid O Kelly to understand the Holy Trinity is what lead to his conversion. Or was it the time he spent in an Arab Jail cell reading the Koran whilst doing time for making alcohol. In Saudi, of all places.

I don't know if the Bible was written "for an adult audience", but I guess it helps to be an adult.

DinoBot

Hero Of College wrote: »

Well apparently the alleged "inability" of Khalid O Kelly to understand the Holy Trinity is what lead to his conversion. Or was it the time he spent in an Arab Jail cell reading the Koran whilst doing time for making alcohol. In Saudi, of all places.

I don't know if the Bible was written "for an adult audience", but I guess it helps to be an adult.

One wonders if he moved from a religion he understood little of into another

DinoBot

irishconvert wrote: »

But we don't all believe in the same god. You, as a Christian, believe that Jesus is God, don't you? We don't believe that. We believe that Jesus was a messenger of God, not God or a son of God.

Just a question for my Irish convert. How much of the story of Jesus of the bible is followed by the Islamic faith ? Was he born of a virgin ? Baptized ? Died on the cross ? Risen from the dead ?