ROH Driven

Double C

Everyone seems to be giving out stink about wrestling on here, whether it's WWE or TNA no one seems to be happy with their wrestling fix. Well here's your alternative people!! All the critics (Meltzer included :eek: ) are calling it the best PPV of the year. OK the competition has been poor but still, it's just a tremendous show.

It opens with a red hot 6 man tag in the NRC vs Delirious/Resilience. This is topped off by

the return of Austin Aries. The crowd is electric and Aries declaring his wrestling freedom goes down as one of the big moments in ROH history.

Next up is Claudio and Sydal. Claudio is always great with the high flyers and this is no different. A really good spotfest,

made all the better by Sweet and Sour Inc coming in an recruiting Sydal after. Toland is the man!

Marufuji pulls a decent match out of Whitmer and Albright kills Primeau.

Steen and Generico vs the Briscoes is what you would expect from these teams, awesome.

Morishima vs Rave is short (very short) and sweet!

McGuinness vs Danielson overtakes Cena vs Orton imo as match of the year so far. Just incredible.

Everyone should see this PPV. Sadly Dailymotion haven't got it yet.

the flananator

Can't find this anywhere! Why isn't it up on Dailymotion!?

Double C

I'd say ROH stopped it being put up. Understandibly so, they want people to pay for it! Hope they never find me

I'll buy the DVD when it comes out!!!

Vince135792003

the flananator wrote:

Can't find this anywhere! Why isn't it up on Dailymotion!?

Pay for it. I haven't seen much of ROH but they don't exactly have a reputation of short changing people. You'll get your moneys worth I'm sure.

Fozzy

I was about to start a thread on this, I watched it earlier today. Awesome awesome awesome show, easily my best ppv of the year so far

I was watching it with a mate who has become very disillusioned with WWE and TNA in the last few months, he's watched ROH before but never fully gotten into it. A few times during the show he said how it was the sort of stuff that makes him forget why he started to not like wrestling

Opening match is another of those perfect opening matches, like the 6-man mayhem they had at the start of Colt Cabana's last show, real fast paced with everyone getting involved. I really wanted to see M-Dogg's dive into the ropes he does, I marvel at that move every time I see it. Aries return was deadly, he was more entertaining in those 3 or 4 minutes than he was in his last 3 or 4 months with TNA. Which reminded me, what ever happened Bob Backlund?

Claudio's always better with smaller guys. I expect a much different Sydal the next time I see him on tv!

Marufuji's had some really good matches this year, this one with Whitmer wasn't one of his best, but it certainly wasn't bad. Albright was basically establishing his character, although in a more exciting fashion than the likes of Snitsky do

Steen & Generico vs the Briscoes was just great. The only complaint I'd have of the match is that I think it went one move too long, which is a relatively minor complaint here. My mate was very impressed with Steen, and I think Generico convinced him to head along to IWW next month. Very good stuff from the Briscoes as usual

I think Jimmy Rave is a first, appearing on one promotion's ppv, then a different promotion's ppv, and in all likelihood he'll be on the next TNA ppv again. Your standard entertaining Morishima-destroying-some-guy match!

Nigel and Dragon! Wow! That was somethin else. Definitely right up there with the best matches I've seen this year

Something I really liked was that every match told some part of a bigger story and all of them advanced the angles in some way. Nothing was meaningless. The promos I didn't mention, Larry Sweeney and Adam Pearce's, were both great. I'm already a big fan of both those guys on the mic, but my mate hadn't seen either of them before and he was very impressed, especially with Sweeney

I'll be buying the DVD when it's out, there's some extra matches on it too. I'd thoroughly recommend this to anyone, it's only 2 hours, not as long as the rest of the ppvs this year but better than every one of them I think

Bubs101

Just wondering how good the production values/ commentary is.The facts it's filmed ina gym( at least the ones I've seen )has upt me off before

Fozzy

Bubs101 wrote:

Just wondering how good the production values/ commentary is.The facts it's filmed ina gym( at least the ones I've seen )has upt me off before

The production has improved from last year, and the commentary has improved even more. Dave Prazak and Lenny Leonard are the top guys around at the moment I think. I'm probably not the one to ask though, the quality has always won out over the production values with ROH for me. Plus I'm used to watching ****ty videos from the 70s and 80s!

Have to say though, there couldn't have been a bigger difference between the two sets of fans at WWE's last ppv and this. The fans at Unforgiven looked like they didn't want to be there!

Fozzy

You can watch this show by looking in at the video thread

Mr.Nice Guy

I've never watched an entire ROH card but I sat through this on Fozzy's recommendation and I figured I'd give my thoughts...

I was really into the opening tag match which was a fine bout and had the match ended with the TKO from, I think it was Stevens, then I would have regarded this as a great opener. Alas...the whole thing descended into the kind of thing that really pisses me off about ROH. The whole thing became a spotfest with everyone trying to land their big moves. It became farcical when a guy - I believe it was Cross (?) - landed this insane spinning moonsault manoeuvre - only for the guy to kick out! To me this cheapens the actual contest and I actually found myself laughing at the absurdity of it all. Now maybe this is the kind of thing that ROH fans are into but this is not what I like. Keep it simple I say. The finish to this bout ruined it. The promo from Aries was passionate but I can't say I really cared about it seeing as I'm not an ROH fan. I liked the guy in TNA though and felt more should have been done with him there.

Castagnoli vs Sydal was a good match which I enjoyed. I was a bit concerned that they would drag out the finish for eternity like the opener but it was a fun contest. Thumbs up for this.

Whitmer vs Marufuji wasn't as enjoyable to me as the previous match. It wasn't a bad match but it didn't seem like the two had good chemistry and they seemed to just want to hit their big moves. No real story told in this match.

The Albright/ Primeau (?) match was basically a squash. It was effective in making Albright look good although the guy he beat wasn't up to much. Albright looks like Mike Knox but with wrestling skills. I did think some of the moves he hit on the guy were dangerous looking but I suppose this is ROH's style.

I'll disagree strongly now with Fozzy who said the Briscoes match with Steen/El Generico went "one move too long" which he felt was a "relatively minor complaint". I felt it went TWO BIG MOVES too long (moves which really should have been the finish) and I regard it as a pretty major complaint as before that it was one of the most enjoyable tag team matches I'd seen in a long time. Honestly I can't express how much these long drawn out finishes piss me off. If ROH "are wrestling" as Aries earlier claimed then why are they completely rewriting the wrestling book when it comes to the finish of the match?! Steen hit a move on one of the Briscoes which should have ended the bout (but didn't) and then following that one of the Briscoes hit a finisher on El Generico which should have ended the bout - but didn't. Why tell a great story in the ring only to then completely ruin it by messing up the ending? BOLLOCKS TO THAT!

The Morishima/Rave match was largely useless. Morishima is one of the guys that ROH fans hype up in a big way and I don't get why. He's a big guy who hits big moves and he destroyed his opponent. Big whoop. I'll take Umaga over this guy every time.

Then it was on to McGuinness vs Danielson. While it's obvious that Danielson can go technically, it's annoying to see these ROH fans applauding his every move like he's some God in the ring. Let the match develop for f*ck's sake. This hero worship got on my nerves. As for the match itself I wasn't as bowled over by it as Fozzy was. To me McGuinness showed a distinct lack of aggression in this match - unlike Danielson - which to me took something away from the match. Admittedly McGuinness got more aggressive as the match went on but I would have liked to see it right from the start. I also felt the fans got carried away at times for example when McGuinness hit a cross body from the top turnbuckle on to Danielson. It was a good move but the fans went absolutely ape-sh*t which to me was just silly. Technically speaking it's hard to fault the match but I felt it was lacking in the areas of aggression and competitiveness. McGuinness is mainly the guy responsible for that though in my opinion. The finish to the match was at times excellent and at times quite comical (so many slaps if Joey Styles was there he'd yell "catfight!") but I didn't feel it was drawn out like some of the earlier matches.

As for some final thoughts on the PPV I felt the commentary was fine and certainly better than what TNA have. The promos were fine too.

As far as it being better than every other PPV this year, I would strongly disagree with that statement. Double C said it was a "tremendous show". Again I would disagree. It was good yes and better than recent WWE offerings but if I was offered the chance to have any PPV of the past year on DVD I would definitely not select this one. The Royal Rumble, Wrestlemania 23 and Backlash were the best PPVs of the year as far as I'm concerned and I remain of that opinion.

I was willing to see if this PPV would convert me to ROH in the way UFC's recent PPV offering convinced me to give UFC a try. The answer is no. I have to return the issue of the finishes in ROH matches because I feel it is so important. The finishes are spoiling the contest I feel. I have an analogy which will hopefully explain what I mean. Anyone who has played Metal Gear Solid 2 on the PS2 will be aware of the absurd ending to the game. Before the ending the game had told a great story and had added a cool plot twist near the finale of the game. However, the makers of the game for whatever reason decided to throw in ANOTHER plot twist in the last thirty minutes which was so ridiculous and OTT that it just left a bitter taste in the mouth. That is how I feel watching so many ROH matches.

If they had ended most of the matches on this card with realistic finishes then not only would I be singing this PPV's praises and planning on buying it to boot, but I would also be willing to give ROH plenty of support. Instead I'm left scratching my head at how people can regard this form of wrestling as the best in the world!

Thumbs in the middle PPV for me. The sad thing is I reckon they're on the cusp of greatness if only they kept things simple.

Vince135792003

Just watched the Danielson/McGuiness match. It was brilliant. I've only watched that match so far but I'm gonna buy it just so I can see it properly on the tv.

It was just a match that did 101 minor things really well which summed up into something great. I can't think off the top of my head a better match I've seen this year.

Double C

Mr Nice Guy, I don't really get your criticism of the fans, especially regarding that McGuinness crossbody (the one off the top rope to the outside over the guardrail). The crowd went apesh*t and they had every right to do so imo! That's a move that McGuinness had hit before and I certainly didn't expect it out of him. What's the problem with fans enjoying what's happening in the ring?
My gripe with the crowd was some tard screaming "**** you Nigel" in his face after Danielson suplexed him onto the guardrail.

I see your complaint with the first match, it got a bit out of hand. I just watched the Steenerico vs Briscoe's match again though and didn't have much of a problem with it.

Maybe the Military Press/Death Valley Driver should have finished the match, but that's not Jays finisher, the following move was (maybe he shouldn't have bothered with the DVD?). God only knows no WWE match ever ends on a move other than a finisher.

I agree on Morishima, he is over-hyped and not really that impressive. Agile for a big man, but thats about it.

Mr.Nice Guy

Double C wrote:

Mr Nice Guy, I don't really get your criticism of the fans, especially regarding that McGuinness crossbody (the one off the top rope to the outside over the guardrail). The crowd went apesh*t and they had every right to do so imo! That's a move that McGuinness had hit before and I certainly didn't expect it out of him. What's the problem with fans enjoying what's happening in the ring?

I saw it as fairly unspectacular in light of the other moves which had been on show earlier in the evening. it just came across to me as an example of the fans going OTT.

Double C wrote:

God only knows no WWE match ever ends on a move other than a finisher.

WWE matches generally don't overstay their welcome though. How many false finishes can you put up with before it gets out of hand? Build to the dramatic finale and then end it. In ROH the fat lady starts singing and yet the show continues. I just don't get it.

Fozzy

Mr.Nice Guy wrote:

I saw it as fairly unspectacular in light of the other moves which had been on show earlier in the evening. it just came across to me as an example of the fans going OTT.

I'm not sure if it has anything to do with it, but the Danielson/McGuinness match was taped at a different event from the rest of the ppv. Maybe those fans hadn't seen the sort of stuff that the other fans had. They were probably being extra loud too anyway, since I'm pretty sure that they were told that the match would be on a ppv

Good job on giving the show a chance, even if I do disagree with some of what you said! Backlash is the only other ppv that gives this show a run for its money as best ppv of the year I think, but seeing as Backlash cost four times more in America, I think Driven would be better value for money

I don't mind the finishes, which aren't drawn out in every match. In WWE, 95% of the time you can tell exactly when a match will finish. ROH isn't as predictable in that sense and it usually keeps me more interested towards the end. I don't feel that the Briscoes match or the opening match were as dragged-out as you think either, since both matches ended with a finisher being hit when there was no one from the other team to save the pinfall. What you see as drawn-out finishes generally occur in tag matches, which makes perfect sense, as there's always someone who's had time to recover to stop the finish. How many times have you seen a tag match in WWE where a finisher will be hit on one guy while his partner is somehow still incapacitated outside the ring just from being thrown through the ropes?! It's worse when the partner is leaning on the ring apron yet can't manage to get into the ring

I disagree strongly about there being anything lacking in the main event! Danielson deserves absolutely every single bit of hero-worship he gets at this stage, especially if he does decide to retire from wrestling early like he's mentioned. Wrestlers like him don't come around often and he can't be taken for granted. Might sound a bit over-the-top, but Danielson is everything that's right about wrestling in a time when there's a lot of bad things happening

Mr.Nice Guy

Fozzy wrote:

I don't mind the finishes, which aren't drawn out in every match. In WWE, 95% of the time you can tell exactly when a match will finish. ROH isn't as predictable in that sense and it usually keeps me more interested towards the end. I don't feel that the Briscoes match or the opening match were as dragged-out as you think either, since both matches ended with a finisher being hit when there was no one from the other team to save the pinfall. What you see as drawn-out finishes generally occur in tag matches, which makes perfect sense, as there's always someone who's had time to recover to stop the finish. How many times have you seen a tag match in WWE where a finisher will be hit on one guy while his partner is somehow still incapacitated outside the ring just from being thrown through the ropes?! It's worse when the partner is leaning on the ring apron yet can't manage to get into the ring

But I think the difference is in WWE when a devastating move is hit on a guy then he will usually be pinned. In ROH a comptitor gets hit with several devastating manoeuvres in the finish and yet keeps kicking out! I find it spoils the contest as a whole because there's solid selling in the early parts of ROH matches yet in the ending of the matches the selling goes out the window. The moves hit in that Briscoes match really ought to have been the finish looking at it from a logical standpoint.

Fozzy wrote:

I disagree strongly about there being anything lacking in the main event! Danielson deserves absolutely every single bit of hero-worship he gets at this stage, especially if he does decide to retire from wrestling early like he's mentioned. Wrestlers like him don't come around often and he can't be taken for granted. Might sound a bit over-the-top, but Danielson is everything that's right about wrestling in a time when there's a lot of bad things happening

I'm not really knocking Danielson for the main event, mainly McGuinness. Don't you feel he was pretty lacklustre in comparison to Danielson? It seemed to me like he was putting more emphasis on making it a fluid technical match which is fine and dandy but I felt he neglected to show some aggression and a bit of fire in his belly.

On Danielson I thought his performance was good but I still don't get the hype and I'm not sure he would be a big hit in WWE if he ever made the jump there.

Vince135792003

Just on the Danielson/McGuiness match, I loved the mat work. Just the attention to detail was great.

Again I haven't seen enough to probably say this but they re-defined to me (or maybe they have already and I just haven't watched enough) what mat work should be in 2007 with the incorporation of a lot of MMA. I just loved how they made every little thing count.

On Danielson being a hit in WWE? Well they have a certain set of criteria that squeezes for the most part guys like him from being successful. That shouldn't be seen as a knock on him.

Fred Estaire wouldn't have been included in a Riverdance troop but that doesn't mean he wasn't a great dancer. Just 2 different styles. Two different entities.

In a way its sad that WWE is the only mainstream wrestling show in town in 2007. Or to put it another way, it's sad that the WWE have gone down the particular path they have in many respects. Vince has been successful and has produced periods of great wrestling.

Honestly though, for the majority of people who see wrestling on tv, they see it as mindless, talentless, stupid tv with a sleazy underbelly to it. Vince has contributed hugely to that image and its not just down to people being simply ignorant.

If things had been different and people on a mainstream level had been given the oppurtunity to see an alternative of purely wrestling like that between Danielson/McGuiness (and obviously other great wrestlers who were also in the WWE and other places) I believe there would be an immense more respect for wrestling that there isn't now and its sad in a way that more people won't see matches like this. That thought just hit me when watching it.


Look at even TNA. They lost their vision of becoming an alternative too. They became a bad version of WWE.

That probably made no sense but I spent too long typing it out!

Mr.Nice Guy

Vince135792003 wrote:

On Danielson being a hit in WWE? Well they have a certain set of criteria that squeezes for the most part guys like him from being successful. That shouldn't be seen as a knock on him.

Fred Estaire wouldn't have been included in a Riverdance troop but that doesn't mean he wasn't a great dancer. Just 2 different styles. Two different entities.

Don't agree with that analogy at all. Astaire in Riverdance wouldn't work because he'd be a fish out of water. He wasn't an Irish dancer. Danielson is a professional wrestler and presumably ought to be well equipped to handle himself in a professional wrestling ring in WWE, right?

CM Punk was adored in ROH and given numerous praise and yet now he is in WWE he hasn't blown anyone away with his in-ring performances. He's not been bad but he's not been great either. I reckon the same would be true of Danielson in WWE. It's one thing doing your stuff in a dimly lit arena with a couple of hundred manic fans on show, but it's another thing entirely to do it in an arena with thousands on hand and millions at home.

RVD managed to make the step up and wow audiences in WWE so it can be done. It's fair to say Punk hasn't done it yet thus far. And as far as I'm concerned, unless Danielson attempts to make it on the big stage then he has proved nothing.

estebancambias

Mr.Nice Guy, I tend to agree with you about the ROH fans(in general) but how can you say Punk has not blown people away? I'm not sure if you meant he was not over, but if this is what you were getting at, watch Survivor Series 06, who got the biggest pop? Oh right, Punk, that was nearly a year ago.

Has Punk really got the chance to show his real stuff, some of his matches with Nitro have been very very good. The only downside is they refuse to give them enough time.

ShawnRaven

estebancambias wrote:

I'm not sure if you meant he was not over, but if this is what you were getting at, watch Survivor Series 06, who got the biggest pop? Oh right, Punk, that was nearly a year ago.

And he's been struggling to get that same reaction ever since! It's called a novelty. It comes and it goes.

VR!

estebancambias

VR, seriously who would get that sort of reaction over a prolonged basis? Perhaps only one..Jeff Hardy.

Bubs101

He was blown away by Morrisson in their matches and the reason he got popped by the fans is beacause they're a bit soft compared to formere generations. My class' hero was loved cos he drank beer and hated authority, for some reason this generation loves the only "punk" who hates drink and silently begrudges Authority while doing nothing about it

ShawnRaven

estebancambias wrote:

VR, seriously who would get that sort of reaction over a prolonged basis? Perhaps only one..Jeff Hardy.

Try Steve Austin, as per Bubs101
VR!

Vince135792003

Mr.Nice Guy wrote:

Don't agree with that analogy at all. Astaire in Riverdance wouldn't work because he'd be a fish out of water. He wasn't an Irish dancer. Danielson is a professional wrestler and presumably ought to be well equipped to handle himself in a professional wrestling ring in WWE, right?

My point is wrestling is like dancing. There are different styles/expectations/demands for different audiences and none is more superior than the other. This gets away from my original point which I made earlier on why it would be questionable on whether he's succeed or not.

It had nothing to do with his ability in my original point when using the analogy. The guy in terms of his wrestling in my opinion could fit in anywhere. It was about the narrow criteria WWE has for what a wrestler should be.

gimmick

WWE fans are conditioned at this point to not like a wrestler like Danielson. He has no look, is a small guy, and wrestles techically, as opposed to doing high power manoevres at all times. Thats the long and short of it. The fact that he probably doesn't bathe in steroids wont help him either, but I read somewhere before that there is a contract waiting for him at WWE which he can decide to sign if and when he pleases.

Rather than using the analogy of Fred Astaire and Riverdance, what about Andrei Shevchenko at Chelsea. No one can doubt his achievements at Milan and Dynamo, and arguably for the Ukraine. However he isn't cutting it at Chelsea for maybe their style of play not suiting him. Or maybe he just doesn't want to be there. one way or other a very talented football is floundering. Is that because he isn't good enough to adapt, or is it because of reaosn beyond his control?

Not seen this PPV yet, but from what I have heard it worth seeing. Ill wait until it is out on DVD and make my own decisions.

Fozzy

Mr.Nice Guy wrote:

I'm not really knocking Danielson for the main event, mainly McGuinness. Don't you feel he was pretty lacklustre in comparison to Danielson? It seemed to me like he was putting more emphasis on making it a fluid technical match which is fine and dandy but I felt he neglected to show some aggression and a bit of fire in his belly.

I forgot to respond to that point before. McGuinness's character isn't the type where he's going to go out with a full head of steam and be real aggressive at the start. He's a laid-back guy, the sunglasses he wore to the ring convey that! Also, the last time he had a one-on-one match with Danielson was in Liverpool and he got very aggressive at the end, but he ended up losing it

I don't see any glaring reason why Danielson wouldn't do well in WWE. Back in 2002 he had some excellent matches on Velocity, including one against Cena, plus he often wrestles in a way to make his opponent look good. There were plenty of reports at the time saying that WWE wanted to sign him but he had to get a tan first

We've gone through the CM Punk thing before, but I stand by saying that if Punk did what he did on the indys on tv every week, then he would be having great matches and be blowing plenty more people away. But what he did on the indys isn't the style WWE wants, and no one style is any more correct than any other. Punk's good, but Danielson is in a whole different league

Danielson has proven plenty. He's proven that he can have amazing wrestling matches, and he doesn't need to go to WWE to do that. Has Khali proven that he's a magnificent wrestler by making it to the top of WWE?

flahavaj

If guys like Regal, Benoit and indeed the Dynamite kid made it as household names in WWE/F, theres no reason why Danielson couldn't, given of course the right push. Cetainly there's a spot for him at the moment given that theres a serious lack of scientific "workers" in WWE right now.

gimmick

Just finished watching the first DVD of this - the PPV part, and am quite happy with the purchase. Not going to do a match by match review, but the main event was fantastic. The psychology was amazing in this, but it always is when these two square off. Think it was a touch too short though. i think it only ran about 25 minutes, it could have gone another 10 for it to be considered a true great of their rivalry.

The opner, as I alluded to in the Last Match thread I tought was great. Sure there was nothing technical or pretty, but it was just a good fight.

Briscoes Vs Steenerico was brilliant, and I actually thought this was a tad short as well. They found the finishing sprint too early i thought, without enough work been done early on.

Looking forward to the extras disc now, if for no other reason Danielson Vs KENTA. I know both are overrated nobodies, but Ill enjoy it anyway.

Re the criticism of Morishima for being overhyped? Who has being over hyping him? For the most part, people are saying he is a good big man who plays the monster role very adequately, but will never be regarded as a great champion like some of his predecessors.

flahavaj

I thought Morishima had a fantastic run with the title belt and in his 6 months as champ had plenty good to very good defences. I've yet to see any of the Dragon trilogy which are said to be incredible stuff (what else do you expect from Dragon really?). His defence against Aries, Shingo, Albright, Claudio and jay Brisco are all great matches.

If anything my only criticism of Morishima is that he needs to be even more of a monster. He doesn't need to be so generous in giving so much offence to smaller wrestlers like on the ROH roster. He should watch him some Stan Hansen tapes and really knock some bitches out!

Give the big guy another few years seasoning and he will be incredible, mark my words and will carry NOAH on his ample shoulders for many years to come.