Runnig advice please!

clickerquicklic

Hi all have been reading some of the posts here and the advice seems fantastic so i'd like to thank all in advance for advice.
Basically my story is I started running in June when a mate of mine challenged my to do the marathon with him, I had never run before in my life but did cyle in and out of work. I have to admit that I taught it would be a lot easier than it is and I have total respect for everyone I see out there running.
I regularly did 4 hour mountain bike trails in tree rock and it just doesn't compare to the strain on the joints of a run.
So I signed up with my mate for the adidas race series and did the 5, 10 and half marathon in times of 40m 1.17m and 1.46m respectively and i have to say although they were tough at the time they were managable.

Now the main reason for my post is the week before the half I ran an 18 mile run it took 2hrs 30m and I was dead on my feet, that night had a horrible sleep and headaches maybe i was a little dehydrated, i brought a 500ml bottle of water with me and two packets of wine gums on advice of my running friend, is this correct or should i be taken on more fluids?? or what type of food would people bring with them ??
Since that night i went on two more long runs two 16 mile runs that took me 2hrs 30 mins on both runs i've had to slow down and stop not because of my legs but because of a feeling of light-headness - has anyone experienced this??
Now at this stage im really concerned about weather i can finish the marathon i just dont seem to have the energy in me to surpass the 2hr 30min mark without getting a feeling of energyless, is there anyway of combatting this i normally run my long run on a sunday evening and try to have a big lunch before going out .
My dream would be to finish the marathon but to do it sub 4hrs would be fantastic.
Thanks so much for the advice I find it so emotional as well as physical coming in from a bad run puts me in such a bad mood and makes me doubt wheather to turn up for the marathon.
Fair play to all the runners on here its a true measure of fitness.

Pherekydes

What you're experiencing on the longer runs (2 hrs+) is called "hitting the wall". Basically, your brain runs out of fuel and you become lightheaded and disoriented. On longer runs you will need to bring a source of fuel with you. Sugary drinks, such as de-gassed coke or some such (personal preference) are best. Nothing solid. Also, you should not eat a large lunch before running as your muscles need all the blood they can get, and digestion diverts blood supply. Something light 2 hours before should suffice, and preferably something that will not upset your stomach.

Have a read of this thread on hitting the wall.

Your times at the 10 miles and half marathon indicate you are making good progress. There's no real fall-off in performance and that's a good sign. So stick with the program and try not to get discouraged. In my opinion, you could get under 4 hours if all goes well.

Good luck!

clickerquicklic

Hi there "Slow coach" and thanks for the reply ,thats very helpful what you say about not eating so much before running I have been consciously trying to eat as much as possible 2 to 3 hours before running as i taught that would solve the energyloss problem.
I'll read that article on "hitting the wall" now and i'll give the coke thing a try.
Sorry for all the questions but just wondered what quantity of fluids would you be bringing out with you on a long run considering the only way of bringing them seems to be carrying them?

Peckham

clickerquicklic wrote:

Sorry for all the questions but just wondered what quantity of fluids would you be bringing out with you on a long run considering the only way of bringing them seems to be carrying them?

A fuel belt would be a good investment. You can get various different types in any running store (Arnotts has a reasonable selection if you're in Dublin). These vary from a number of small bottles to one large bottle. You could also try a camelpak. It's all personal preference and takes a bit of experimenting.

Irishfit.com has a good range of these, see here.

Another alternative is to bring a few euro with you and pop into shops when running past.

In terms of how much/what liquid to take with you. The how much is dependent on how much fluid you lose when running (mainly driven by how much you sweat). A good way to work this out is if you have a precise weighing scales at home - weigh yourself before you run, and then weigh yourself afterwards. If the difference is more than 1 or 2lbs, then you probably need to consume more fluid on your run.

The "what liquid" is entirely personal preference. I always take both isotonic drinks and water with me on any run of 10 miles plus, however I normally just use the water when taking gels.

Abhainn

Hi there clickerquicklic,

Now the main reason for my post is the week before the half I ran an 18 mile run it took 2hrs 30m and I was dead on my feet,
My dream would be to finish the marathon but to do it sub 4hrs would be fantastic.

Two bits so advice:

1.
I deduct from the information above that your are pushing too hard in your long runs. We are told long runs should 45-90 secs SLOWER than you goal marathon pace.
From your recent race times you are well on course for a sub 4hr marathon alright (http://www.runningforfitness.org/calc/rp.php).
So lets calculate:
Say MP is 9min / mile you would be on course of a 3hr55min marathon. Your long runs in training should be in the region 9:45 - 10:30/ mile. If you take 9min 45sec / mile x 18 miles = 2hr 55.
I hoping for a sub 3:20 marathon and did an 18 mile recently. My goal was to do it in 2:30 but was annoyed at myself when I came back inside 2:23. I felt ok but legs were a bit like jelly. My 20 mile this weekend will be in the region of 2:45 - 2:50 (I hope as I have never run this far before!)

2. I usually do my long runs in the morning say 9am. I rise at 7am or so (when our little angel awakes). I have one weetabix and some toast with jam. In the hour before the run I hydrate with 500ml wate and a seperate energy drink of my own concoction 750ml or so of water, two / 3 desert spoons of glucose, some lemon cordial, squeezed half a pure lemon.

On the run I take 600ml of the energy drink and 200ml of water in my fuel belt.


So far it works! Best of luck

clickerquicklic

Hi "peckham" thanks for the advice and the link, I work in the city centre so i'll pop down to Arnotts today and have a look around the belts would definitly be a help.
In terms of sweating I don't actually sweat that much , luckily on all runs I find im rarely out of breath or sweating and have only stopped twice due to the feeling of light-headness which i now know as "hitting the wall" thanks to the earlier poster.
Some great advice here guys thanks it puts me back raring to go for the marathon.
Good luck and fair play to anyone else training for same.

Clum

Yeah, you're looking good for a 4 hour marathon. Keep up the good work.

The days before the long run you need to Carb Load aswell. Pasta dishes, rice, bread, potatoes, cereals, etc...after a while your body will get used to breaking down and storing these foods as fuel in your muscles and use them when required. If you're out running regularly there should be no worries about the carbs hanging around and converting to fat.

Add Tomatoes and Red Peppers to the pasta dishes, loads of Vitamin C. You'll need to eat extra for all the miles you're running now and this includes extra portions of fruit and veg, they'll provide the fibre necessary to break down all the carbohydrates.

Your friend wasn't wrong about the wine gums. Sweets like them provide a good sugar boost (although wine gums require a lot of chewing). The boost doesn't last long but can help when needed. A lot of long distance runners bring glucose gels, or isotonic drinks, even mars bars and you'll even see some elite athletes popping a few jelly babies for the extra quick energy release. I've no doubt extra fluid and energy needs to be taken on during a long run but the preperation before hand is very important too.

billyhead

Lads,

Just as a matter of interest. In relation to those energy belts, I run my long runs at a fairly fast pace i.e 6.45 - 7 mins per mile pace. Are they ackward to run with or do you barely notice them on your waist? I have ran one 20 miler and two 18 mile runs so far without taking gels or drinks but I know myself I should be taking something on the long runs as I begin to tire out a lot during the last 5-6 miles.

Peckham

billyhead wrote:

Lads,

Just as a matter of interest. In relation to those energy belts, I run my long runs at a fairly fast pace i.e 6.45 - 7 mins per mile pace. Are they ackward to run with or do you barely notice them on your waist? I have ran one 20 miler and two 18 mile runs so far without taking gels or drinks but I know myself I should be taking something on the long runs as I begin to tire out a lot during the last 5-6 miles.

They are a bit awkward on the first run or two, but you get used to them (however I never got used to a Camelbak, so stuck to the belts).

However....long runs at 6.45 to 7.00....that puts you at a 2:40 marathon (based on 6:10MP) - top 40 finisher based on last years results! How many 20 milers have you done at that pace?! Are you going too fast given that you're tiring in final 5-6 miles

billyhead

Thansk for the info Peckham. I have done two 18 milers and one 20 mile run at that pace. I am hoping to finish the marathon (New York) in under 2hr 45mins.

tenandtracer

Hi Billyhead,
I use the powerbar belt that you can get from irishfit. I do not really notice it now on long runs -it only weighs 400 g fully packed.It is a necessity for me, on my long run today (21 miles), I took a gel at miles 13 and 18 and got through all the fluids on the belt during that time. Previously, I struggled at 14 miles and beyond without the gels and belt.
Best of luck with New York

onekeaneo

Sorry lads I wonder can I hijack this thread for a minute just to ask a question. Where can you buy those energy gels? I bought some in the cycle superstore before but Tallaght is a bit for me so I was just wondering is there another shop that sells them. Thanks.

clickerquicklic

Hi lads thanks everyone for your excellent replies that has really helped, some stuff i have never taught of there lads brilliant advice.

One thing I'm not to sure about is that you should run your training runs slower than marathon pace? Do people do this ?? Is it not too hard then to up the pace and distance on the day?

Again thanks everyone for advice going to try a 20mile tonight with new powerbar belt and gels, In responce to onekeaneo I bought the belt and gels in Arnnots after Peckham advised me to try there.

I found the gels a bit thick so premixed it with water and it seems fine.
I'll post up how i find the gels tonight , thanks all and good luck in your training .

Abhainn

clickerquicklic see below



One thing I'm not to sure about is that you should run your training runs slower than marathon pace? Do people do this ?? Is it not too hard then to up the pace and distance on the day?

Some info here:

http://www.halhigdon.com/marathon/Mar00intermediate.htm

tenandtracer

onekeaneo wrote:

Where can you buy those energy gels? .

http://www.irishfit.eu/
Sean is quick about sending them out as well.

Stupid_Private

Another question on the gels... does anyone know where to get ones that aren't Powerbar gels? I tried 2 of them on my long run this week and they were the foulest I'd ever used!

hunnymonster

you can get lucozade gels in Boots. Other brands some people like are maxim and high five. At the moment I'm using stinger gels. They are esentially just honey, no additives or anything nasty. You can buy them online.

FlyOver

Does every Boots store have these gels?

Any other stores in Dublin that has them apart from Arnotts?

hunnymonster

I don't know what EVERY boots stocks. They are listed in the Golden pages or you could go into a store and ask!

What are you lookg for in an Arnotts alternative?

Stupid_Private

Apparently the cycle shop on the quays has them as well - Cycleogical I believe it's called. I don't know exactly what brands they stock but I'll find out this weekend

jrar

Clum wrote:

Your friend wasn't wrong about the wine gums. Sweets like them provide a good sugar boost (although wine gums require a lot of chewing). The boost doesn't last long but can help when needed. A lot of long distance runners bring glucose gels, or isotonic drinks, even mars bars and you'll even see some elite athletes popping a few jelly babies for the extra quick energy release. I've no doubt extra fluid and energy needs to be taken on during a long run but the preperation before hand is very important too.

What about glucose sweets ? I take them regularly when on longer runs but I'm not sure how effective they are i.e. can't say I notice any additional energy from them, so is some of this potential boost a psychological thing as much as a physical thing ??

Clum

jrar wrote:

What about glucose sweets ? I take them regularly when on longer runs but I'm not sure how effective they are i.e. can't say I notice any additional energy from them, so is some of this potential boost a psychological thing as much as a physical thing ??

Haven't used them myself, I'd normally carry a Lucozade Sport Carbo Gel or two but the old lad, who has completed over 20 marathons, swears by them. Usually takes a couple around the 19 or 20 mile marker. I don't normally run along side him (I'm a fair bit quicker thankfully) but neither of us take extra fuels on during any run under 20 miles, only fluids.

gar_29

Stupid_Private wrote:

Another question on the gels... does anyone know where to get ones that aren't Powerbar gels? I tried 2 of them on my long run this week and they were the foulest I'd ever used!

yeah, most of those gels are pretty manky!

other options for energy levels during runs:

(a) haribo. during last year's marathon they had boxes of them at the water stations, but you'd need to be in the first half of the field to be sure to get any!

(b) cashews, if you can carry them. they're pretty bulky though.

(c) pepperami. an absolute godsend! i'd never go for a long run without one. for obvious reasons, carry it, don't stick it in the pocket of your tracksuit

it's a question of finding what works for you. i did a long race in england last month, and only took on pepperami while running. some of the other lads existed solely on jelly babies.

make sure that whatever you do, you're not doing it for the first time on race day! also, a good rule of thumb for taking in water during training runs and for the day itself is to drink 500mls per hour. always drink before you feel thirsty. if you feel thirsty, it's already too late....