Jol and Spurs

GuanYin

Seriously puzzled by all the hoohaa thats come out of late. Can someone, perhaps even some Spurs fans tell me what on earth is going on here?

You've got a manager who has singlehandedly dragged you up from a mid table team of underachievers to a team on the cusp of breaking into the top 4 (as most pundits predicted would happen this season).

Ok, they're still a long way behind the top four (with Arsenal's current team it's hard to see which of the top four is the weakest) but they've managed 5th, two season's running with no real competition.

To have this level of turnaround and consistancy after such a short tenure is pretty remarkable, look how long it took Fergie to get United on track!

So seriously, why are the Spurs fans turning against Jol, am I missing something here?

DSB

They've spent enough money to be in the top 4 though really haven't they?

Id imagine its because they havent exactly had the best of starts to the season, and with the massive outlay of money during the summer the fans are probably restless, but Id say the performannces are stemming from the unrest caused by Levy when he went after Juande Ramos.


Im a United fan tho so dont take me at my word!!

zAbbo

They're bottom 3 this season, after spending 17m on a Striker they didn't necessarily need.

astrofool

I'd say the pressure is on both ends, from the director to improve results given the investment and from the players who expected to be pushing for the CL instead of being in the relegation zone.

I doubt players like Chimbonda, Berbatov, Lennon etc. will stay long when a top 4 team in the CL comes calling.

GuanYin

I think a bad start is a fair enough reason for concern, but given his overall record I don't think he should be sacked over it. The season isn't a write off yet and it's quite possible they'll be up in the mix at season's end.

As far as spending goes, I don't think Spurs have spent that much more than some clubs that are much less successful.

handsfree

i know a spurs fan who hates jol because essentially he is a crap manager who has never won a cup game and his only achievement is coming 5th twice. this year they wont even finsh top 6 so basically you have to give a guy with actual talent a chance to see if he can do better and give him this season and next to start building a team to compete.

Personally i wouldnt be sure about ramos taking charge because there are question marks over who buys his players. why let another puppet take charge. you dont need a big name just a guy with a winning mentality and a reasonable track record to go with it.

PHB

As far as spending goes, I don't think Spurs have spent that much more than some clubs that are much less successful.

From this thread http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055102447&page=4


Fergie V Benitez V Mourinho V Jol V Wenger V Newcastle

Net Spend 04/05 to Present Day

---

Total Net

---

Average per year
Mourinho

---

£185,930,000

---

£61,976,667
Fergie

---

£83,070,000

---

£27,690,000
Benitez

---

£78,770,000

---

£26,256,667
Jol

---

£58,250,000

---

£19,416,667
Newcastle United--£53,850,000

---

£17,950,000
Wenger

---

£-480,000

---

£-160,000

I think it's hard to criticise Jol considering he isn't in control of who gets bought. They bought Bent when they really really really didn't need another striker. They needed a CM and a DC, and they are still weak there.

therecklessone

£40m spent to improve a squad that finished 5th two years running, and only dead wood out the door...a lot expected considering that.

Something like 31 set piece goals conceded in the last 45 games...summed up best elsewhere with "everytime they get a corner I think we'll concede, everytime we do I think goal kick".

14 goals conceded from outside the box from the start of last season (worst record in PL)

Paul Robinson undroppable.

Ditto Robbie Keane.

Jermain Defoe not getting a look in.

Ditto Darren Bent.

3-1 (vs Chelsea in FA Cup) and we f*cked it up.

2-0 (vs Arsenal in Lager Cup) and we f*cked it up.

3-1 (vs Fulham in PL) and we f*cked it up.

1 win against the top 4 in 25 attempts.

Any or all of the above...:D

I don't care about the poor start to the season, I care that Martin still isn't learning from his mistakes...can't understand why Robbo is allowed punt long balls all day, can't understand why Keane is allowed roam the midfield leaving Berbatov isolated up front, can't understand why we've not addressed deficiencies in midfield, can't understand why 3-1 and cruising at Fulham he replaces Keane with Defoe and persists with Robbo's punts to the wee man surrendering possession, initiative, and ultimately the lead, can't understand why we played 4 CMs away to a poor Bolton side with Lennon on the bench and Bale (who's played LM for us) left in London!!!

I'd settle for a top 6 finish this year (and would have done at the start of the season) but under Jol I can't see us ever aiming higher. Nice man, who did a great job the last few years but I've realised he's not up to the task of pushing the top 4.

The recent booing is directly related to his treatment of Defoe btw.

p.s. if people leave aside Tottenham's underachievement for the last 20 years for a moment and looked beyond the results you'd see a lot of these problems for what they are. Paul Merson suggested on Soccer Saturday last week that Spurs would be mad to let Jol go, he's a great manager and he was unlucky not to get a win at Old Trafford this season...how often have we heard that? Truth is Hudd was too slow to turn and close down Nani, Gardner was too slow to step up and Robbo was off his line by about 7 yards. The slight deflection doesn't come into it, get the basics right and you make your own luck.

mike65

That looks like a typo at the bottom PHB!

The board have behaved appallingly towards Yol, if they were'nt convinced of his merits then they should'nt have spent 40 million for him. The idea that Spurs season is already a write off is daft, right now the gap between 3rd bottom and 5th is SIX POINTS, one decent run of games and they could be contenders for a UEFA spot by mid/late November.

Mike.

therecklessone

PHB wrote:

I think it's hard to criticise Jol considering he isn't in control of who gets bought. They bought Bent when they really really really didn't need another striker. They needed a CM and a DC, and they are still weak there.

The assumption is we bought Bent because your lot will eventually get Berbatov and so Bent will be his replacement. Which is nonsense, because if he ain't getting his game now he'll lose his sharpness by the time he is required.

He should be starting ahead of Keane at the moment.

As for another central defender?

Dawson
Kaboul
Rocha
Gardner
And King out injured.

How many more do we need? Midfield I agree.

Jol's input into transfers aside, would you say he gets the best out of the players he's given? Bent was a player he wanted...Wayne Routledge has hardly got a look in yet Jol specifically requested him.

PHB

Quierez for Spurs is a rumour I've heard :P King is always injured. Rocha and Gardner are not good enough. End of. Dawson looks ok with King next to him, but they need somebody to come in and be able to play for the whole season at the level of King.

therecklessone

mike65 wrote:

The board have behaved appallingly towards Yol,

Agreed, but is Jol without blame?

Interviewed by both Ajax and Newcastle while employed at Spurs.

There are some real slimeballs on the board at Spurs, Paul Kelsmley being chief among them. Best mates with Bent 'Arry, and if Ramos gives us the bird I expect Steptoe to be approached...:(

therecklessone

PHB wrote:

Rocha and Gardner are not good enough.

Agree re. Gardner, disagree re. Rocha. If he was good enough to play CL with Benfica he's good enough to play Sundireland and Bolton away.

handsfree wrote:

Personally i wouldnt be sure about ramos taking charge because there are question marks over who buys his players. why let another puppet take charge. you dont need a big name just a guy with a winning mentality and a reasonable track record to go with it.

Because the board want to retain the structure and so they need a head coach rather than a manager? Because Ramos works under that regime in Seville?

PHB

That's the key question though, is Ramos really any better, or does he have a better system behind him? Sevilla in my mind are incredibly good in the transfer market, can't say the same about Spurs.

therecklessone

PHB wrote:

can't say the same about Spurs.

Why not?

I'd have thought the purchases of Berbatov, Zokora, Chimbonda, Bale, Kaboul, Ekotto, Taarabt etc show that Comolli is doing a decent job. Key question should be, is Jol good enough to improve those players through coaching?

As for effectiveness in the transfer market, doesn't matter a jot if your coach isn't utilising the resources well...

leninbenjamin

I'm not a spurs fan but I pretty much agree with therecklessone's view on this. There are some glaring obvious tactical failures in the side that Jol has simply failed to address under his tenure, rather they appear to be getting worse every time i see them play. he's a decent manager but they'll never go much further than they are now under him.

changing him alone though won't guarantee them success though. If they do persist with the sporting director first coach set up they need to look at replacing and hiring them both in tandem with a view to the ability of the potential hiree's ability to work together, or else giving commoli a role in the hiring process to ensure whoever they hire can work with the players he buys. Also why the board started this mess so early into the season really shows up their own competency to run a club.

PHB

Coaches make teams work well, but if the right players aren't there, he really can't get it going beyond 5th place.

Berbatov, Zokora, Chimbonda, Bale, Kaboul, Ekotto, Taarabt etc show that Comolli is doing a decent job

He certainly has identified some good players (although I certainly wouldn't include Zokora in that list. Zokora as a replacement for Carrick was a shocking move) However, in comparision to Sevilla, in terms of balance as a team, Spurs are still far behind. Spurs have gotten good players in, but it seems to be that Commoli doesn't have a grander plan in terms of getting good players in in every position.

GuanYin

I was under the impression that Jol didn't have sole say on transfers. I thought the purchase of a full back and striker when the obvious deficiencies lie it the centre of the park to be most strange.

As far as Keane goes, I'm not his biggest fan, but the opinion from Jol (and this is only from interviews I've read) is that he is their top scorer over the past few seasons and scores goals from all over the park which it seems is not the case with Defoe. He also talks about options and feels that Defoe can only play well alongside Berbatov while the other three are more interchangable.

I'd assumed that Bent was the replacement for a departing Defoe, not for Berbatov.

therecklessone

PHB wrote:

Coaches make teams work well, but if the right players aren't there, he really can't get it going beyond 5th place.

What I find strange is this: in a league table excluding the top 4, Spurs top the last two season's tables, in 2005/06 by 9 points from Newcastle, and in 2006/07 by 3 points from Reading. I'll attach a spreadsheet to show that. That suggests to me that we have continually proven ourselves against our peers, yet while we have struggled to break into the top tier of domestic football, our peers continue to take points from those sides.

That can't simply be down to the calibre of player available to Jol, attitude and motivation must be taken into account.

Is there much difference between the squad Sam Allardyce led to 6th last season and the squad Franny Lee has in 19th at the moment? They look very different on the pitch...

therecklessone

psi wrote:

I was under the impression that Jol didn't have sole say on transfers.

Very hard to know what the score is there, the most recent comments from Daniel Levy at a meeting with the Supporters Trust were to the effect that no player is bought without Jol's approval. That doesn't mean that the players he necessarily wants are bought though, and I'm led to believe that Jol wanted to sign Martin Petrov who is now at Man City but was over ruled by Comolli on the grounds that he is too old (on orders from above to only buy with resale value in mind?)

psi wrote:

As far as Keane goes, I'm not his biggest fan, but the opinion from Jol (and this is only from interviews I've read) is that he is their top scorer over the past few seasons and scores goals from all over the park which it seems is not the case with Defoe. He also talks about options and feels that Defoe can only play well alongside Berbatov while the other three are more interchangable.

I think that's a cop out by Jol TBH. Martin is very adept at handling the PR side of his job, it's maybe why he's getting all the sympathy from outside the club while the Three Stooges (Levy, Kelmsley and Comolli) are painted as the pantomime villains. Jol has also said that Defoe needs to wait his turn and take his chances when presented to him, which I feel he did against Famagusta. His reward was to be left out of the squad for Bolton while the Golden Boy kept his place...Jol would no doubt claim his decision was vindicated when Keane tapped in to take the lead...heard a great saying last night..."the sun comes up as the cockrel crows, doesn't mean he called it"

TBH, I'd prefer Bent started with Berbatov as I think that would be our best partnership. Instead Keane gets to start every game (along with Chimbonda the only two to do so this season) and £16.5m sits wasted on the bench...at least Bent wants to be in the oppositions box, not poncing around the centre circle waving his arms.

PHB

therecklessone wrote:

What I find strange is this: in a league table excluding the top 4, Spurs top the last two season's tables, in 2005/06 by 9 points from Newcastle, and in 2006/07 by 3 points from Reading. I'll attach a spreadsheet to show that. That suggests to me that we have continually proven ourselves against our peers, yet while we have struggled to break into the top tier of domestic football, our peers continue to take points from those sides.

That can't simply be down to the calibre of player available to Jol, attitude and motivation must be taken into account.

Is there much difference between the squad Sam Allardyce led to 6th last season and the squad Franny Lee has in 19th at the moment? They look very different on the pitch...

I think it's quite simple really. THe top 4 know they have to raise their game against Spurs and they do. Against other clubs, they don't necessarily need to. The last time Spurs have played United each game has been very close, but United always raised their game to an extra level when they needed too. That doesn't always happen against Bolton, cause they know they can coast by.

Running Bing

PHB wrote:

I think it's quite simple really. THe top 4 know they have to raise their game against Spurs and they do. Against other clubs, they don't necessarily need to. The last time Spurs have played United each game has been very close, but United always raised their game to an extra level when they needed too. That doesn't always happen against Bolton, cause they know they can coast by.

I would definately agree with that PHB.

As for the wider issues the way I see it is Jol has done what he was supposed to the last two seasons. He lead us to fifth place with the fifth best squad.

Last year we only went out of cup competitions to tems which were better than ours(Arse in semi of league cup, Chelsea in quarter of Fa cup and Sevilla in semi of WAFA). Two years ago we were fourth for the majority of the season only missing out on the last day due to illness.

The fact of the matter is Arsenal and Pool have spent the last decade at the top of the PL winning trophies and building title challenging teams. A few years ago Arsenal were almost unbeatable and Pool won 5 throphie within a year. What were we doing? Languishing in mid table mediocrity! You cannot just change that over night!



Bottom Line we stand to lose little if we give Martin Jol some more time, but we could lose a lot(we could lose it all) if we let him go. Spurs fans need to learn some patience(which is difficult for a club who has a history of winning and playing exciting football with some quality players who has spent the last twenty odd years in the sh1ts winning nothing and playing mediocre football)


Oh and BTW Zokora was a shocking signing. He is one of the worst players in the PL.

therecklessone

PHB wrote:

I think it's quite simple really. THe top 4 know they have to raise their game against Spurs and they do. Against other clubs, they don't necessarily need to.

I don't accept that.

Worse sides than Spurs have outfought and out-thought the top 4 sides a number of times since Jol took charge at Spurs, meanwhile we've gone out expecting to lose every time.

5 Everton (ManYoo, Pool x2, Arsenal x2)
5 Boro (Pool, Chelsea x2, ManYoo, Arsenal)
5 Blackburn (Chelsea, ManYoo x2, Arsenal, Pool)
5 West Ham (Arsenal x3, ManYoo x2)
4 Bolton (Arsenal x3, Pool)
4 Newcastle (Pool x2, Chelsea, Arsenal)
4 Man City (Pool, ManYoo x2, Arsenal)
4 Fulham (Chelsea, Pool x2, Chelsea)
3 Birmingham (Arsenal, Pool x2)
2 Pompey (ManYoo, Pool)
1 Norwich (ManYoo)
1 Southampton (Pool)
1 Palace (Pool)
1 Charlton (Pool)
1 WBA (Arsenal)
1 Spurs (Chelsea)
1 Sheff Utd (Arsenal)
1 Villa (Chelsea)

18 teams in the league since Jol took the reins at Spurs...yeah, the top 4 have to up their game against Spurs...;)

All these in domestic cups as well:

Bolton (Arsenal)
Wigan (Arsenal)
Blackburn (Arsenal)
Newcastle (Chelsea)
Charlton (Chelsea) on penos
Southend (ManYoo)
Coventry (ManYoo)
Burnley (Pool)
Palace (Pool)

Raskolnikov

From what I've seen of Keane, he's been one of the better Spurs players this season.

therecklessone

Raskolnikov wrote:

From what I've seen of Keane, he's been one of the better Spurs players this season.

wiki quote:

Strikers, also known as forwards and attackers, and formerly inside forwards, are the players on a team in football in the row nearest to the opposing team's goal, who are therefore principally responsible for scoring goals.

He has been shocking, Fulham aside.

Raskolnikov

Emile Heskey must be one of the worst players in England then!

leninbenjamin

Raskolnikov wrote:

Emile Heskey must be one of the worst players in England then!

difference between Keane and Heskey is that Heksy stays in the striker's position and doesn't score, Keane goes absolutely everywhere except his actual position and sometimes scores...

i think Keane has been crying out for a manger for years to convert him into an attacking midfielder. he's quite good at it imo, it's just he always seems to be doing it when he's supposed to be the one getting on the end of things.