Lanes at Traffic Lights

Sully

Hey lads,

I'm hoping someone can help me out here. Today I received a fine of €80 and notice that iv two penalty points for ignoring a red light. I'm a bit disappointed (at myself mainly, but also at the guard who pulled me over) and im looking for some advise. Please do not take this as a "way of evading the law" type thread. I fully understand and admitted to what happened, and accept punishment no problem.
I have a full, clean drivers license (until now of course).

Here is what happened:-

I left a local housing estate to enter onto the main road. Traffic was heavy, so the guards indicated to me that I can drive out (they will give way basically). I thanked them and drove up to the traffic lights at the junction - indicating that I was turning right. As the lights were red, I stayed behind the line. Once they became green, I moved out past the lines half way out on the rood waiting for traffic to break so I can fully turn right safely (no filter light at this spot).

I payed to much attention to the cars in front, and once a break came - I turned to the right and drove on. On doing so I noticed the light was red, but didn't think an awful lot of it - as I was blocking traffic I remained where I was. The same guarda car that let me out followed me for sometime - so I pulled into another housing estate thinking it was a bit odd they were with me still. On doing so, they turned on their blue lights and I pulled over when safe to do so and turned down my lights and put on my hazards.

Two guards came over, one checked my tax and insurance - up to date, for a year. The other asked my name and did I have a full license. I presented it and he inspected it. He then said "Did you know you ran a red light on John St?". I apologised and explained why I done so. He said "You still ran the light, and you were not that far out". I apologised again, and said my mistake - I thought I was and that's why I moved.

He went to his car for a while and came back and said "Take it easy on the roads" while handing me my license. I apologised again, said thanks, and went on my way. Nothing was said about getting fined or points. I didn't take down the badge number or anything of the guard as I thought that was it. This happened maybe Tuesday or Monday.

Today, I received the fine. A bit annoyed at myself, as I was stupid enough to break the light when I saw the gap in traffic after a wait. I got many driving lessons - of an instructor and my dad, an ex-guard and member of the IAM (Institute of Advanced Motorists). Disappointed I was never told I was getting a fine - I honestly thought he understood why I did it, and accepted my apology and left it of as its my first offense.

Two questions;
1) When at traffic lights in the right lane - when the lights go green: Should I have moved out half way (the area where those "pressure sensors" are for the lights) and waited for a break in the lights for me to move? Was I right in that sense? I know I should have paid attention to the traffic lights also - but I was blocking traffic from my right if I didn't move. So, im confused. Can someone clarify, so I don't get myself in the position again?

2) Is there much point in me trying to approach the guard and explaining the situation again? I don't mind paying the fine, but 2 points on my license will cause an insurance hike and I personally would prefer a clean license - its a mistake, that I intend not to make again. Iv apologised and admitted I was wrong for breaking the lights. I know the risks of appealing the case.

Id appreciate any help on this one. I'm confused as to number one, but id like to know if there is any point in doing number 2?

Thanks lads, appreciated.

Creamy Goodness

when i was learning to drive i was always told to pull into the middle of the junction - providing there's not a yellow box - when the light is green lining up my front wheels with the line in the middle of the road i'm turning into.

i was then told that if the light goes red you are allow to proceed with your turn this was the reason for the delay in the light turning green for the other cars.

i think you were harshly done by to be honest, and i've too felt the wrong side of the law when an officer mistook fixing my sunglasses as me using a mobile phone.

ballooba

Personally I would have went but I would have been in the centre of the junction waiting for a space. That's the proper practice, not at the white line.

2 points will not affect insurance.

Mr. Presentable

You shouldn't enter a junction until you can clear it. Isn't that the regulation?

Seth Brundle

Appeal what? You broke the light and all a judge will ask is "did you break the light?" to which you will have to confess
Two points won't do much to your insurance unless you already have some!

Shield

When he handed you back your licence and said "Take it easy on the roads", he should have notified you of the fine there and then, and also that you would be receiving points for the offence.

If what you say is true, then in my experience, you have grounds for recourse through the courts, as it was your belief that to stay would have obstructed traffic, and that other oncoming cars failed to obey the orange light turning to red, thus preventing you from safely making the right turn, leaving you either stuck at a junction at a red light, or proceeding with caution around the corner, which you did safely.

If it were me, I'd be contesting on these grounds.

ballooba

nipplenuts wrote:

You shouldn't enter a junction until you can clear it. Isn't that the regulation?

Only if there is a yellow box.

Wishbone Ash

The OP was turning right. It is perfectly legal to enter a yellow box while waiting to turn right ( providing that the exit road is clear).

OP - I think you were hard done by if what you say is correct. It is generally acceptable to clear a junction if the light changes to red and is reasonably safe to do so. Otherwise you would block the junction and would have to move anyway. I regularly drive large vehicles (articulated trucks and buses) and would often have to complete a manoeuvre when the light goes to red. If I didn't, I would block the entire junction!

cyclopath2001

ballooba wrote:

Only if there is a yellow box.

If there is a yellow box, you're allowed stop on it if you're turning right and you're waiting for oncoming traffic to clear. (SI182/1997 para 29.2). That said, there's a general rule against making a nuisance of yourself.

On a side note, not only is it an offence to run a red light, but it's also an offence to run an amber one (unless you can justify why you could not stop for it......don't say you were driving too fast!). (SI82/1997 para 30.2). It's interesting to see how many motorists in criticising cyclists for running red lights, invariably misquote the very rule they're applying.

In the situation described, you'd think that once you're past the initial signal and are waiting in the box, you'd be allowed to exit the junction without committing an offence. But maybe it depends on the specific circumstances of the incident & any pedestrians or other vehicles affected by the manoeuvre and the layout of the junction.

That said, I'd sympathise with the OP based on the facts presented his account.

tricky D

Imo you should contest this. If the junction has no yellow box, I can't see any problem with you advancing into the junction in preparation for turning. Some junctions have been getting those dashed turn right from here boxes, but I dare say most are still the old poorly marked ones. Way back when I learnt the Rules of the Road, anything already on a junction has right of way until they clear the junction irrespective of the state of the lights. You also have not broken the lights if you crossed the line on the green light - nothing to apologise for or admit there. Preferably, you should have been informed of any intention to pursue the matter but I doubt that is required.

Normally the best line is to approach a garda for a chat, but given that this garda seems to have got 2 or 3 things pretty much plain wrong I'd wonder if this is a good idea. Then again he might be nice guy who had a bad day.

Wishbone Ash

tricky D wrote:

If the junction has no yellow box

That is irrelevant (see above posts).

Eoin

cyclopath2001 wrote:

On a side note, not only is it an offence to run a red light, but it's also an offence to run an amber one (unless you can justify why you could not stop for it......don't say you were driving too fast!). (SI82/1997 para 30.2). It's interesting to see how many motorists in criticising cyclists for running red lights, invariably misquote the very rule they're applying.

Bit of a difference between going through an orange, and the blatant red light breaking by seemingly untouchable cyclists I see every day, but that's for another topic.

cyclopath2001 wrote:

In the situation described, you'd think that once you're past the initial signal and are waiting in the box, you'd be allowed to exit the junction without committing an offence. But maybe it depends on the specific circumstances of the incident & any pedestrians or other vehicles affected by the manoeuvre and the layout of the junction.

That said, I'd sympathise with the OP based on the facts presented his account.

Yep - probably one of those discretionary calls. Before I did my test, my instructor specifically told me that one question that can come up is "when are you allowed break a red light" - and the answer was along the lines of "when you are in control of a junction and turning right, and motorists coming the other way have driven through the orange lights" (which, they probably have, as you could have gone through them, had they not).

I think it is a harsh call - one of the turns I have to make every morning is exactly like this (Mount Street onto Hollis Street). It's a massive junction, so it's very easy to get stuck at a red, and you're easily in the way if you don't break the red.

fricatus

Sully, was that the junction of the Manor and John St in Waterford by any chance? If it was, it's definitely got a yellow box, and it's a busy one too... pretty much constant traffic from early morning till late at night.

Sounds to me like you were forced into going through on red because of oncoming drivers going through orange. What would the Gardai have done if you'd waited in the middle of the junction until green? You'd have been obstructing the road to your right, and they certainly wouldn't be happy with that.

It might do you more harm than good to fight it, but morally I think you were in the right if it's as you describe.

Wishbone Ash

eoin_s wrote:

Bit of a difference between going through an orange, and the blatant red light breaking by seemingly untouchable cyclists I see every day, but that's for another topic.



Yep - probably one of those discretionary calls. Before I did my test, my instructor specifically told me that one question that can come up is "when are you allowed break a red light" - and the answer was along the lines of "when you are in control of a junction and turning right, and motorists coming the other way have driven through the orange lights" (which, they probably have, as you could have gone through them, had they not).

I think it is a harsh call - one of the turns I have to make every morning is exactly like this (Mount Street onto Hollis Street). It's a massive junction, so it's very easy to get stuck at a red, and you're easily in the way if you don't break the red.

fricatus wrote:

Sully, was that the junction of the Manor and John St in Waterford by any chance? If it was, it's definitely got a yellow box, and it's a busy one too... pretty much constant traffic from early morning till late at night.

Sounds to me like you were forced into going through on red because of oncoming drivers going through orange. What would the Gardai have done if you'd waited in the middle of the junction until green? You'd have been obstructing the road to your right, and they certainly wouldn't be happy with that.

It might do you more harm than good to fight it, but morally I think you were in the right if it's as you describe.

AMBER, AMBER, AMBER !!! :D

J_R

Hi,

Cops must have taken driving lessons with Who is this twit Frank Cullinane?

You can only break the lights by crossing the white line on amber or red. When you have entered the junction you are no longer controlled by the lights.

Basically, lights control the entrance to a junction - not the exit.

You could be charged with some other motoring offence, but not breaking the lights.

From the Irish Independent article Independent.ie

The Road Safety Authority said it is up to each local authority to set the times on traffic lights and believed this was consistent throughout the country. It said the second light at the other side of a junction did not determine whether a motorist was fined.

When turning right, you enter the junction, (on green), if possible to your turning point, then go when clear and safe. Irrespective what colour the lights.

hi5

Depends on how far across the road you were,I always make sure the front wheels on my car are just on the centre line and locked to the right ready to go once a break in traffic appears with the nose of the car slightly blocking any traffic that will approach from the left ,this should make your intentions clear to all.
If your car was back closer to your red light and you had to move forward to get to the centre of the road then it could be argued you broke the light.

Del2005

I agree with what the others have said. According the OPs post they entered a junction on green to turn right. They couldn't clear the junction when lights where green, so cleared it when the lights went red. From my reading of the ROTR and from my driving instructors, I thought that once you are in the junction then you have right of way.

OP was there another car in the junction in front of you turning right? If there was you can't enter the junction to turn right till the other car has cleared the junction. That would be the only reason I can see you being done.

Del2005

hi5 wrote:

Depends on how far across the road you were,I always make sure the front wheels on my car are just on the centre line and locked to the right ready to go once a break in traffic appears with the nose of the car slightly blocking any traffic that will approach from the left ,this should make your intentions clear to all.
If your car was back closer to your red light and you had to move forward to get to the centre of the road then it could be argued you broke the light.

The bit in bold above is very dangerous. If someone rear ends you, you will be forced into oncoming traffic and have a head on collision. When waiting to turn at any junction always have your wheel pointed straight ahead, if possible, so if you do get rear ended you only move forward and may have a shunt into another car.

_Kaiser_

I'm with Del2005 on this one.. As I understand it, when the lights are green you may move forward across the junction in preparation to turn right when an opening appears in the oncoming traffic. If the lights turn red before this, you retain control of the junction and other cars must yield to you until you complete the manoeuver. I've done it many times myself.

Sounds like you were hard done by OP, but seeing as the Gardai themselves often don't know the ROTR in my experience with differing opinions and judgements from different Gardai (hence the "it depends who you get" phenomenon), it's not surprising really. Or they may have just been filling their ticket quota for the day/month.

You could appeal, but given our wonderful system where you are guilty until proven innocent - ie: discouraged from doing so by the threat of higher fines/more points - and the laughable (but not funny) situation where the only evidence a cop has to give is his/her "word", you may be as well just to save yourself the hassle and take the 2 points.

It's not right, but that's Ireland for you :mad:

Sully

Del2005 wrote:

I agree with what the others have said. According the OPs post they entered a junction on green to turn right. They couldn't clear the junction when lights where green, so cleared it when the lights went red. From my reading of the ROTR and from my driving instructors, I thought that once you are in the junction then you have right of way.

That is exactly what happened - and im not leaving anything out. What iv said is true and iv left nothing out. I arrived at the top of the queue, I then waited until it went green. It did, I moved the car forward past the lines into the centre of the road (as I was told to do when learning to drive). I waited for a break in the oncoming traffic. The only time a break came is when the lights went red - which I only noticed after turning as I paid attention mainly to the traffic. If I did not move, I would have been out to far and been an obstruction to traffic on my right.

I was always told to do this, and iv seen many people do it in the past and even since the incident. I honestly thought this is what was supposed to be done.

OP was there another car in the junction in front of you turning right? If there was you can't enter the junction to turn right till the other car has cleared the junction. That would be the only reason I can see you being done.

I was at the top - there was nobody in front of me. I was behind the line when I arrived first as it was red. I moved forward on green and waited for the break, as described. Basically, iv been fined and given two points for something I was told was proper driving.

I mean, if the instructors are saying one thing and the guards are saying another - who's right? What proof is there?

Eoin

Wishbone Ash wrote:

[ COLOR="[B]Orange[/B]"]AMBER, AMBER, AMBER [/COLOR]!!! :D

The irony!

ec18

If you were the first car in the junction...and broke the lights turning right..wouldn't that mean that the guards also broke the lights to follow you......And shouldn't have even been in the junction as they were the second car?

cyclopath2001

Sully wrote:

I was at the top - there was nobody in front of me. I was behind the line when I arrived first as it was red. I moved forward on green and waited for the break, as described. Basically, iv been fined and given two points for something I was told was proper driving.

Sounds like the Gardai got it wrong. It would not be not the first time.

30. (1) Where traffic sign number RTS 00I, RTS 002, RTS 003 or RTS 004 (referred to in these Regulations as traffic lights) is provided, a person shall not drive a vehicle past the traffic lights, or past traffic sign number RRM 017 [stop line] where such sign is provided in association with the traffic lights when the red lamp of the traffic light is illuminated.

It seems to me that you did not break this rule as described above, assuming you were already past the RRM017 and did not then pass a red signal. It might be important to check carefully what rule they say you broke.

I got stopped for 'not riding on a cycle track where one was provided', but he put his ticket book away when I pointed out that the 'cycle track' had been closed by the city council some months earlier and the statutory RUS009 sign had been removed. We ended up mutually slagging off the corpo's stupidity.

For convenience of not having to argue in court, you needed to get your point of view across before the ticket was written. Also, a Garda should inform you why you've been stopped. They can't stop you without a reason and they must give it. In your case, it's unfair that you were not informed that they were considering writing a ticket for the alleged offence.

Wishbone Ash

eoin_s wrote:

The irony!

I was very much aware of that irony!

Sully

I checked today, the junction has no yellow box (not that it makes a difference it seems) nor does it have a fliter light.

I drove up to the lights at first which were red. Stayed behind the white line and lights until it went green. Moved out and got ready to turn when safe to do so. I watched the traffic and not the traffic lights across the road (if you understand, there are traffic lights at the white line and then directly opposite it on the other side of the road). When I got the chance, I went - but it so happened the only break was when the lights went red.

Got a link to that "30" reference about passing lights? Or anything else which backs up earlier claims that your allowed to turn on a red signal if your out in the middle waiting for a break in traffic to turn right?

cjt156

I think they took a cheap shot, if you had continued driving & not pulled over they probably would have let you go.

Many, many moons ago I actually failed my first driving test (on a bike) for NOT DOING what you did. I stayed at the white line waiting for a green filter instead of "moving forward & occupying the junction" (can still hear those words today).

Del2005

From checking the Rules of the Road from the RSA it isn't clear but on page 83 they have this

If you wish to turn right at a set of traffic lights that has an arrow to the right,
drive into the junction when you see a green light, taking care not to block any
oncoming traffic. Then, when it is safe, finish your turn. You should only wait for
the filter arrow for turning right when you are in the junction and if it would be
dangerous to finish your turn before the filter light appears.

From the bit I've bolded it says not to block oncoming traffic. If you where in the junction and on a red you would have blocked the traffic coming through on green.

Also found this on page 63

If oncoming traffic means you cannot take a right turn immediately, you must wait in the box until you can safely take the turn.

It appears that it's a typical Irish solution to an easy problem, all the driving instructors tell you to drive through when the lights go red but it isn't written down anywhere. But the only offence I can see is passing the line/lights on amber or red and from what you said you didn't. But unfortunately it'll be your word against the Garda's if you challange it and the Garda doesn't have to provide proof. Hopefully someone else can find better info.


http://www.rsa.ie/PUBLICATIONS/upload/File/ROTR_2007.pdf

spockety

Your best bet might be to get on to the Garda who gave you the ticket, and discuss it with him, tell him you were unsure about what you were ticketed with and you've done some rooting around and found that you were within your rights to do what you did. He/she might be reasonable about it, and tell them you are going to have to challenge it because you don't want points on your license.. they may hold their hands up and tell the judge to chuck it out when it goes to court.

Is there any CCTV cameras on that junction?

Sully

Ya I had a look at the Rules of the Road and it only discusses what to do when a filter light is present. After that, it says nothing (at least, that I can find).

I think ill speak to my solictor on this one, and see if he thinks its worth challenging. I dont want to end up with a larger fine and 5 points (stupid, for explaining your side to a story you risk getting more points).

Also, I didnt pull over for them - I just moved of into an estate which is when they decided to put on their lights. I moved in there having a fair idea its either now or never with them. Didnt think they would go on about the red light, I assumed they just spotted 3 young people in a car (well, in our 20s - 03 Toyota Avensis) and monitored the driving and decided to pull us over.

Also, CCTV is at the buildings of the junctions - not on the lights. One points towards the back of my car but more towards the footpath then the road.

seamus

Definitely sounds like they took a cheap shot. Almost everyone in the country is taught that the first person in the queue, moves out to the middle of the junction when the lights go green and if they're blocking traffic, completes their turn when it is safe to do so, regardless of the colour of the lights.

Unless there were green pedestrian lights which would have prevented you turning right, I can't see any reason for the Gardai to claim you broke the red light.

Sully

Fair enough - but I cant say that in court. I need some sort of legislation or rule thats written down officaly that states the above. Thats my main problem now - despite what being told, I need something thats offical that states the above so I can prove my case.

I really dont want to end up with 5 points and a bigger fine, just for arguing that pretty much everyone is thought to drive that way!!