Who is going to stand up to the US this time when it decides to invade Iran ?

jonny72

The Israelis have been backed into a corner too many time, they've just learned that reacting strongly is the most effective thing they can do. Morally, though, the IDF aren't much different from Hezbollah, unless you doubt that Hezbollah wouldn't purposefully clusterbomb innocent civilians.

Akrasia

moe_sizlak wrote: »

israel most likely attacked and destroyed lebbanon so as to send a stong message to a stong nation in the region , i.e iran , lebannon was deemed by israel and the usa to be elligible for sacrafice to project israels might to stronger forces

Or more likely, Israel levelled lebanon because they were becoming too prosperous and threatened Israel's domination of the region.

They had only just started to recover from the previous war and they were sent back to square one again. They had only just finished building a new airport when it was flattened.

And just to make sure Lebanon takes its time rebuilding, Israel dropped millions of cluster bomblets all over the south of the country

Akrasia

Manic Moran wrote: »

Attacked? What attack? Syria denies any attack.
http://www.nytimes.com/2007/10/11/world/middleeast/11syria.html?_r=2&th&emc=th&oref=slogin&oref=slogin

It is possible that there is a connection between the missing nuclear weapon in the U.S. on August 30 (nukes simply do not get put on airplanes and flown around by accident), and the mysterious sortie carried out by Israel in Syria. Were they trying to deliver a bomb to a group in syria?
http://www.zmag.org/content/showarticle.cfm?SectionID=201&ItemID=13938

djpbarry

jonny72 wrote:

Morally, though, the IDF aren't much different from Hezbollah, unless you doubt that Hezbollah wouldn't purposefully clusterbomb innocent civilians.

And that is the crux of the matter. Hezbollah are recognised, by some governments at least, as a terrorist organisation - interestingly, the EU does not recognise them as such, but that is a matter for another thread. The IDA is the military arm of a sovereign state and should conduct themselves accordingly.

I am of the opinion that Israel's attack on Lebanon was, for the most part, an unjust one. It was purely a show of strength that achieved very little other than once again destroying the Lebanese economy and most likely resulted in Hezbollah receiving a surge in applications for membership.

purple'n'gold

In my opinion the USA are playing an extremely dangerous game in the Middle East. If this complete acceptance of every Israeli atrocity (which is totally condoned by Washington) is not stopped there is going to be a catastrophe. They are heading big time for another 9/11 and IMO it will be far worse that the original. They are alienating the entire Muslim world by their treatment of the Palestinian people.

Rhiannon14

The only answer I can give to the question the thread poses sounds rather bleak. The only ones who can stand up to the US right now are the citizens themselves. It's abominable that so many feel they cannot.

moe_sizlak

purplengold wrote: »

In my opinion the USA are playing an extremely dangerous game in the Middle East. If this complete acceptance of every Israeli atrocity (which is totally condoned by Washington) is not stopped there is going to be a catastrophe. They are heading big time for another 9/11 and IMO it will be far worse that the original. They are alienating the entire Muslim world by their treatment of the Palestinian people.

you honestly think the neo cons care about this reality , 9-11 gave this administration a blank cheque to go about there nation building or deconstruction more like
the PNAC or project for an american century which is a programme for goverment written a decade ago , mainly by israeli americans and the likes of dick cheney has been implemented to a large degree by this administratin , its key goals are to use american millitary might to shape the world and in particular the mid east both america and israels liking , that there would be a back lash from the arab world is not only irrelevant , its convienient , it reinforces the neo cons view to the american people that brute force must be used in the region , particulary by israel against its alledged enemys

purple'n'gold

Whether they care or not is of no real consequence. They are heading for a disaster.

Mr.Micro

Lest people forget after the so called "liberation of Iraq" , the US having destroyed what little infrastructure there was then awarded the likes of Halliburton and various others all the contracts to re build .Destroy and rebuild ,a sort of economy in itself worth billions to US corporations.Iraq has become an imperialist trophy and nothing so far persuades me that is not the case.Its all ok to meddle in countries thousands of miles away from the good old USA where most people can still aspire to live the American dream.

Manic Moran

Akrasia wrote: »

It is possible that there is a connection between the missing nuclear weapon in the U.S. on August 30 (nukes simply do not get put on airplanes and flown around by accident),

Why not? The mistake was an easy one to make if you look at how they're tracked. Besides, they were never missing, they were just sent to another base when they weren't supposed to have been. Not as if they ended up in Syria.

Besides, areas such as Beirut and Baalbeck, both of which are a considerable distance from the Israeli border, were heavily targeted by the Israeli Air Force.

The question, though, is would they have been had the Lebanese government taken an interest in the affairs of the Southern part of their country? It would be a little unfair to attack the Lebanese for at least trying and failing, but they were content enough to accept their own increasing prosperity from their four years of peace without worrying about the simmering cauldron within their own borders. And who's to say that the Lebanese couldn't have asked for external assistance such as from the UN to help them regain control over their own country?

NTM

Sir Digby Chicken Caesar

why would they? alot of the lebanese support hezbollah... you don't get to be a resistance movement without popular support.

djpbarry

Manic Moran wrote: »

The question, though, is would they have been had the Lebanese government taken an interest in the affairs of the Southern part of their country? It would be a little unfair to attack the Lebanese for at least trying and failing, but they were content enough to accept their own increasing prosperity from their four years of peace without worrying about the simmering cauldron within their own borders. And who's to say that the Lebanese couldn't have asked for external assistance such as from the UN to help them regain control over their own country?

You can't be serious? The Lebanese army don't have the resources to deal with Hezbollah, so civilians in Beirut and Baalbeck should die to make up for it? Besides, the UN are not a "liberation" force, they are a peacekeeping force.

Mordeth wrote: »

alot of the lebanese support hezbollah... you don't get to be a resistance movement without popular support.

Really? The IRA were a resistance movement, did they have the popular support of the Irish people? Do ETA have the popular support of the Basque people? Hezbollah have only 14 seats out of 128 in the Lebanese parliament.

Manic Moran

djpbarry wrote: »

You can't be serious? The Lebanese army don't have the resources to deal with Hezbollah, so civilians in Beirut and Baalbeck should die to make up for it? Besides, the UN are not a "liberation" force, they are a peacekeeping force.

Who said anything about a liberation force? All they would be doing is assisting in the UN Resolution 1559 of 2004 saying that the only armed power in Lebanon should be the Lebanese government, and the central government should exert full control over their territory.

Beiruit, however, did absolutely feck-all until after a couple of weeks of bombing in 2006 they decided finally to declare that maybe they should be the only military authority in the country. Noting that the resolution for UNIFIL II says that the UN force should "Accompany and support the Lebanese armed forces as they deploy throughout the South" indicates that the UN has no particular issue with lending its military weight to the Lebanese central government, but Beiruit didn't as much as ask for assistance. Peace enforcing is part of the UN's mandate as well, don't forget.

NTM

Hobbes

Manic Moran wrote: »

Why not? The mistake was an easy one to make if you look at how they're tracked.

Actually it is one of the hardest mistakes to make. Almost impossible thing to do by mistake of loading nukes onto a B52, and then leaving it on runway for 10 hours without armed guards.

I don't have the link but there was a very good write up on the process involved of moving nukes around and even putting them onto a plane requires numerous amounts of paperwork and authorization.

Basically anyone working on the nukes has an armed guard at their back and another person double checking their work. The second something looks amiss both end up on the tarmac while the guard calls in someone to triple check.

Considering this goes on at the taking out of storage, preparing, hauling, loading, preparing the bomber, bomber crew, fueling. I find it very hard to believe it was a mistake. If it was, the US military is in a worse state then previously thought.

djpbarry

Manic Moran wrote: »

Who said anything about a liberation force? All they would be doing is assisting in the UN Resolution 1559 of 2004 saying that the only armed power in Lebanon should be the Lebanese government, and the central government should exert full control over their territory.

UN Resolution 1559 states that the Security Council is (emphasis mine):

" gravely concerned at the continued presence of armed militias in Lebanon, which prevent the Lebanese Government from exercising its full sovereignty over all Lebanese territory "

As I have already stated, it is unlikely that the Lebanese army had the resources to deal with Hezbollah, seeing as how the IDF couldn't handle them.

Besides, irrespective of whether the Lebanese government failed to act with regard to Hezbollah, the actions of Israel in bombing Beirut and Baalbeck (among others) was inexcusable.

Mr.Micro

. And who's to say that the Lebanese couldn't have asked for external assistance such as from the UN to help them regain control over their own country?

NTM[/QUOTE]

With respect I am not sure if Israel would be happy with UN intervention in Lebanon .Israel pointedly refuse to allow UN ( I believe) peacekeepers in the West Bank and other areas of the region,as perhaps this would curtail any actions on Israels part.

karen3212

purplengold wrote: »

The USA could have stopped the destruction of Lebanon with a click of their fingers. They choose not to, it suited them to destroy Lebanon (and it was the USA that destroyed Lebanon, they used Israel as their tool). It kept the pot boiling and scared the likes of Saudi Arabia.

I agree, but you put it in better english. They are completely using Israelis as fodder. I also see anti-semitism rising all around the world. I can't believe Israel's government continues to be used like this. I hope US and Israeli citizens take back power from the warmongers.

moe_sizlak

karen3212 wrote: »

I agree, but you put it in better english. They are completely using Israelis as fodder. I also see anti-semitism rising all around the world. I can't believe Israel's government continues to be used like this. I hope US and Israeli citizens take back power from the warmongers.

whatever about what support the american goverment has from it its citizens for its actions , the israeli goverment enjoys high levels of support for its hardline , the prime minister of israel last yt was trashed for not having gone far enough with the war on lebannon

Mr.Micro

moe_sizlak wrote: »

whatever about what support the american goverment has from it its citizens for its actions , the israeli goverment enjoys high levels of support for its hardline , the prime minister of israel last yt was trashed for not having gone far enough with the war on lebannon

I think it is just as well Israel did not go any farther with the war because it appears they were getting their ass kicked by Hisbollah.An incursion is one thing but to get bogged down in an all out war that could have been prolonged was not on the cards .I read some ago that the Israeli PM was castigated for the war and the Parliament was /is still trying to oust him.

Mr.Micro

I note to day that the Turkish Parliament is debating a motion to allow its troops to incur raids across the Iraq border in pursuit of Kurdish rebels(PKK) .It will, it appears receive sanction in Parliament but the US is opposed . I do believe this is a similar situation that Israel has ,and it acts accordingly,as has been debated on this thread.