why are the garda so afraid of licenced guns??

chem

Im just wondering why it seems that most garda fear legaly held firearms in Ireland? By all acounts we licenced gun owners are the most law abiding folks and in europe the smallest per head holders of firearms per cap.
Is it a civil war issue? Or is it a lack of training issue? Or is it comming down on us from the very top of the gardi?

I feel that it all boils down to supers who are comming to there retirements or sargents! NOT WANTING TO BE INFRONT OF A HIGH COURT DEBATe
I have asked for a pistol licence from my local and felt like i was a part of a teroist group; I shot all types of guns in the US and was in control of explosive items (legally) in Ireland. (IIE) for 10yrs.

sounder

chem wrote:

Im just wondering why it seems that most garda fear legaly held firearms in Ireland? By all acounts we licenced gun owners are the most law abiding folks and in europe the smallest per head holders of firearms per cap.
Is it a civil war issue? Or is it a lack of training issue? Or is it comming down on us from the very top of the gardi?

I feel that it all boils down to supers who are comming to there retirements or sargents! NOT WANTING TO BE INFRONT OF A HIGH COURT DEBATe
I have asked for a pistol licence from my local and felt like i was a part of a teroist group; I shot all types of guns in the US and was in control of explosive items (legally) in Ireland. (IIE) for 10yrs.

because they don't have a ****ing clue..........:)

GilGrissom

sounder wrote:

because they don't have a ****ing clue..........:)

QFT!

Oh it's so true.

Any time I go in to ask something, I end up having to refer them to which section of the firearms act applies. They seem to be afraid of people who know more than them.

alan123

Its simple.... guy buys gun, guy goes beserk and masacres his family, himself and his pets, would YOU want to be the one that reccomended his licence?!! Thats what he is thinking.

At the end of the day, lets face it handguns especially 9mm are designed to kill people, sure you can target shoot with them but they are primarily used to kill people (military police etc). You can probably target shoot with a rocket launcher but it doesnt mean they should grant licences!! As for the guard not having a clue... does anyone not involved in the sport have a clue?? I dont have a handgun, all I know about them is Clint Eastwood has the most powerfull handgun in the world and every time I turn on the tv someone is whacked, popped,etc by a handgun. I have never seen target shooting or any other pistol disciplines on tv or elsewhere so you cant blame a guy for thinking they are dangerous? Maybe the pistol associations should pro actively promote the sport and let people get informed about the sport?

And dont forget, for every one of you guys (genuine sports men) who applies he probably has ten nuts that applies and most of them pretending to be target shooters.

Im obviously pro gun, ust playing a bit of devils advocate and sticking up for the ol Guard, again!

bunny shooter

alan123 wrote:

Its simple.... guy buys gun, guy goes beserk and masacres his family, himself and his pets, would YOU want to be the one that reccomended his licence?!! Thats what he is thinking.

At the end of the day, lets face it handguns especially 9mm are designed to kill people, sure you can target shoot with them but they are primarily used to kill people (military police etc). You can probably target shoot with a rocket launcher but it doesnt mean they should grant licences!! As for the guard not having a clue... does anyone not involved in the sport have a clue?? I dont have a handgun, all I know about them is Clint Eastwood has the most powerfull handgun in the world and every time I turn on the tv someone is whacked, popped,etc by a handgun. I have never seen target shooting or any other pistol disciplines on tv or elsewhere so you cant blame a guy for thinking they are dangerous? Maybe the pistol associations should pro actively promote the sport and let people get informed about the sport?

And dont forget, for every one of you guys (genuine sports men) who applies he probably has ten nuts that applies and most of them pretending to be target shooters.

Im obviously pro gun, ust playing a bit of devils advocate and sticking up for the ol Guard, again!

desert eagle .50 cal is biggest and I'd love to shoot targets with it

rrpc

bunny shooter wrote:

desert eagle .50 cal is biggest and I'd love to shoot targets with it

No it isn't, this is.

That's if you can hold onto it of course

Hagar

alan123 wrote:

I have never seen target shooting or any other pistol disciplines on tv or elsewhere so you cant blame a guy for thinking they are dangerous?

I think the reason for that is shooting is a poor spectator sport. There's very little for a TV audience to see. A small hole appearing in a piece of paper is hardly rivetting TV. Imagine the slow mo action replay. No hole...hole...
The only regularly broadcast shooting event is the Skiing Bi-Athlon, that's interesting enough to watch but I don't think we have any Irish participation in the sport so it doesn't reach the genaral public awareness.

Saruman

Its probably down to availability. If there are lots of licensed guns, they are more available. More chances of them falling into the wrong hands.
Look at the US... a stroppy teenager decides enough is enough, goes home and gets his dads gun and blows the hell out of his classmates.

The Gun owners might be fine but the fact they own a gun is a temptation for others.

Sparks

rrpc wrote:

That's if you can hold onto it of course

Which isn't always that funny a joke, sadly. Wasn't a young kid killed in Canada a few years back because someone let him shoot a handgun that was so overpowered for him that he was killed when the recoil threw the pistol back against his skull?

As to why the Gardai are so afraid of licenced firearms, they're not. Some of them, usually the ones who have no training in firearms legislation or exposure to firearms in a civilian context, have a problem with being the one with the signature on the piece of paper and the subsequent possible liability in the event of an accident. They believe, and I can't really blame them too much for it because I'd feel the same way, that if they have no idea of how the sport goes or what the firearms are capable of and probably don't know you from adam, that it's unfair to ask them to take on liability for something they've only ever seen through coverage of Dunblane or Hungerford on tabloid news channels.

It's also a distant and remote possibility that being described as eejits by the target shooting community more or less continually and in print both here and in places like the ISD and in the national press, may not have prejudiced the undecided gardai in our favour...

alan123

Hagar wrote:

I think the reason for that is shooting is a poor spectator sport. There's very little for a TV audience to see. A small hole appearing in a piece of paper is hardly rivetting TV. Imagine the slow mo action replay. No hole...hole...
The only regularly broadcast shooting event is the Skiing Bi-Athlon, that's interesting enough to watch but I don't think we have any Irish participation in the sport so it doesn't reach the genaral public awareness.

I agree, the whole thing where the gun doesnt look like a gun and the shooter is wearing blinkers isnt very exciting but what about that dicipline where guys use 9mm and move around the course, like a mock action scene or dont they do that here? Thats good tv.

rrpc

alan123 wrote:

I agree, the whole thing where the gun doesnt look like a gun and the shooter is wearing blinkers isnt very exciting but what about that dicipline where guys use 9mm and move around the course, like a mock action scene or dont they do that here? Thats good tv.

Might be good tv, but (no offence to the practical guys) it looks like either kids playing cops and robbers or paramilitary training exercises to the uninitiated. I want to re-emphasise that it's to the uninitiated before I get flamed here. I understand the difficulty involved, but seeing as this thread started about Gardai being afraid of granting pistol licences, I doubt watching practical matches would give them much comfort.






Goes away and hides under desk in anticipation of fusillade from IPSC people

BryanL

but they have no problems with driving licences, alot of people killed every year.
when i went to pay for my gun licence the gara behind the desk was complaining that they were so cheap! we had a chat.......
Bryan

nice1franko

rrpc wrote:

No it isn't, this is.

That's if you can hold onto it of course

that was a fair oul smack in the head - that'll learn em!!

alan123

rrpc wrote:

Might be good tv, but (no offence to the practical guys) it looks like either kids playing cops and robbers or paramilitary training exercises to the uninitiated. I want to re-emphasise that it's to the uninitiated before I get flamed here. I understand the difficulty involved, but seeing as this thread started about Gardai being afraid of granting pistol licences, I doubt watching practical matches would give them much comfort.






Goes away and hides under desk in anticipation of fusillade from IPSC people

Well if you dont do the "practical" shooting courses, what sport do you use 9mm for or are they only good for shooting people??!!!Is there a genuine sporting dicipline in this category?????

rrpc

alan123 wrote:

Well if you dont do the "practical" shooting courses, what sport do you use 9mm for or are they only good for shooting people??!!!Is there a genuine sporting dicipline in this category?????

Practical pistol seems to be the only major international discipline. The NRA in the US have a few different target dsiciplines using them, but they haven't really transferred across the Atlantic.

alan123

rrpc wrote:

Practical pistol seems to be the only major international discipline. The NRA in the US have a few different target dsiciplines using them, but they haven't really transferred across the Atlantic.

So back to the thread then; can you blame the Guards for not wanting to issue licences when there is no sporting value to 9mm pistols in Ireland??

Bananaman

Steady now

I do both Practical and Static pistol shooting competitions. Both with 9mm - although I do prefer some other calibres for the static - a CZ Champion in .40 or a S&W or Taurus .38 Revolver are hard beat for those disciplines for me.

With respect to an audience for Practical Pistol - even it being Gardai who want to "have a goo" - I would find that a good step forward - we have held competitions before where a few Gardai have come for a look to see what it as all about- they were impressed by the safety aspects of it and also were quite curious as to how they would do.

There were two Gardai on my Basic Practical Pistol Course - again I'm sure they learned a thing or two and would have gone away knowing that there is nothing in common between Practical Pistol and any sort of training for armed duty - in fact, if I remember correctly they pointed out they contradict each other in many ways due to the safety concerns in practical.

I actually look forward to the day when the Gardai and the Army get their teeth into Practical Pistol and start to enter teams coz you know you'll have some serious rivalry between them and a generally better appreciation, by the rest of the force, of the types of firearms used in competition.

A lot has been said about a lack of experience by some Gardai with respect to firearms - a lot of the time you wil get the new guy at the desk so that is to be expected. I have been there and will be again so I understand the frustration. The best way, in my opinion, for them to get experience and for the rest to get interested in the sport is for the Gardai themselves to be in it.

it looks like either kids playing cops and robbers or paramilitary training exercises to the uninitiated

I beg to differ - on the range I use, camo or militaria are not allowed for that very reason - you don't want people - the uninitiated as you called them - to think you have weekend warriors on the range.
When a Practical competition - or just a few lads shooting a couple of stages for the craic is on - there are no firearms allowed to be unboxed until you enter the range and only then at a designated safety area.

No competitors coming down to the range will have had a safety briefing and had a brief description of the sport explained to them.

Once shooting commences there is usually 30-40 seconds shooting in 60-70 seconds of range prep and making safe followed by 120-240 seconds of scoring.

I dunno how that can look like anything other than competition.

PS: Our guns run out of bullets aswell - usually with only one round required to finish the stage

B'Man

Bananaman

No competitors

ALL competitors

sidneyreilly

Indeed. One of the root problems with the sport is the ingnorance of others, only way to change that is to show them, helps to have a good ambasador explainging what they are looking ta though:)

alan123

sidneyreilly wrote:

Indeed. One of the root problems with the sport is the ingnorance of others, only way to change that is to show them, helps to have a good ambasador explainging what they are looking ta though:)

Agreed, thanks Bananaman, where is a range to watch practical shooting?? (north Dublin vicinity)

sidneyreilly

alan123 wrote:

Agreed, thanks Bananaman, where is a range to watch practical shooting?? (north Dublin vicinity)

PM sent Alan.

cavan shooter

I don't think Gardai are afraid of licenced guns, it is licenced guns falling into the hands of criminals/NUTTERS that the Gardai are afraid of. But there is another side of this story, Gardai/Police forces tend to implement state policy.

A friend of mine who has studied poitical science for years (big shooting man) and now works as a lecturer. He reckons that in any country which was founded by force of arms, the state is always nervous of the "plebs" having access to firearms and therefore has tighter gun control.

Sometimes you cant blame the gardai....I overheard a conversation at a gun shop recently where a guy was enquiring "on how he could get a 9 mil" after moving away from pistols he looked at a mossberg pump and was physically upset when the store owner informed him it only fired 3 shots (2 mag 1 in chamber)

The argument that tighter gun control stops criminals is ridiculous. Paul williams writes often about the weapons sent in with drugs shipments the so called "sweetneer". But I'd hate to see nothing at all.......

Trojan911

Sparks wrote:

As to why the Gardai are so afraid of licenced firearms, they're not. Some of them, usually the ones who have no training in firearms legislation or exposure to firearms in a civilian context, have a problem with being the one with the signature on the piece of paper and the subsequent possible liability in the event of an accident. They believe, and I can't really blame them too much for it because I'd feel the same way, that if they have no idea of how the sport goes or what the firearms are capable of and probably don't know you from adam, that it's unfair to ask them to take on liability for something they've only ever seen through coverage of Dunblane or Hungerford on tabloid news channels...

I agree in the sense that it is a straightforward process. I don't believe the Gardaí are afraid to issue FAC's. You apply for your licence, fit the criteria & get your licence, similar to a ticky box situation. If you don't meet the criteria you don't get your licence whether it be pulse information i.e drunkeness etc, pre/cons or cautions etc that disentitle you from holding one. That then is down to the Gardaí making reprsentations in court for the refusal.

What should be addressed is that each Super seems to have a different approach to granting a FAC (from reading some peoples difficulties on previous posted threads on this forum) when there is one blanket rule for the application and issuing of a firearm certificate. This needs to be addressed in the interests of fairness to FAC holders.

On Hungerford in 1987, well as tragic as it was, one cannot determine a persons state of mind & when Michael Ryans mind went pear shaped then it had an horrific consequence.

On Dunblane in 1996, as far as I am aware, the local Constablary refused Thomas Hamiltons FAC but it was granted on appeal by a Magistrates court or the equivalent of a Scottish court. He was apparently a disturbed person who had an unhealthy interest in young boys & was a bitter person for whatever reason.

There appears to be nothing in the legislation here for psychological testing for each FAC holder so in theory there is no reason why we shouldn't encounter a similar situation like the UK here in Ireland from a legally held FAC holder or a family member of a FAC holder, There are some isolated incidents that I am aware of.

I would be firmly in favour of a mandatory gun cabinet order as part of the criteria to hold a FAC and the release of GP records with anything related to depression etc.

Just my 2cents worth.

TJ911...

bunny shooter

Only FAC holder should have access to firearms, ammo etc. security is to prevent all unauthorised access. If a legally held firearm is used by someone, even a family member, not holding an FAC the FAC holder is responsible

recipio

:mad: Its not just the gardai that are afraid of licenced guns, the politicians are also. Just look at the rediculous laws governing airguns brought in as a kneejerk reaction in 1972. Result, no dedicated airguns shops, no buying or selling freely, no FT or HFT , no collecting airguns as a hobby as all transactions go through the Super making it impossible. In effect they have outlawed a perfectly legimate hobby and the airgun leisure scene here is dead in the water. I'm not aware of any country in the E.U needing a licence for every airgun except us.( correct me if I am wrong )
An example of political arrogance in my view.

bunny shooter

recipio wrote:

:mad: Its not just the gardai that are afraid of licenced guns, the politicians are also. Just look at the rediculous laws governing airguns brought in as a kneejerk reaction in 1972. Result, no dedicated airguns shops, no buying or selling freely, no FT or HFT , no collecting airguns as a hobby as all transactions go through the Super making it impossible. In effect they have outlawed a perfectly legimate hobby and the airgun leisure scene here is dead in the water. I'm not aware of any country in the E.U needing a licence for every airgun except us.( correct me if I am wrong )
An example of political arrogance in my view.

Extremely good point. I've lived in UK and they have a tremendous airgun scene as said FT & HFT. I used to do a bit of what was tantamount to HFT in the late 80's, springers (BSA Superstar I had, lovely rifle, and HW 77's were the popular rifles) and low power scopes, no pcp's then and it was great. The area required is small and ranges are small compared even to rimfire 22's. There were two local gun shops to me who were able to make a good living supplying the airgun scene. if I remember one was a dedicated airgun shop. Great pastime, relatively cheap, safety req's are easier to satisfy, over 17 no restrictions except if you had a criminal record, loads of clubs and a national and international competition scene.

Think there are restrictions on the way there now ?

Trojan911

recipio wrote:

I'm not aware of any country in the E.U needing a licence for every airgun except us.( correct me if I am wrong )
An example of political arrogance in my view.

You are spot on there. There was also kneejerk reaction in the UK in '97 when the revokation of sec1 FAC's was brought in because of Dunblane.

I also lived in the UK and my handguns were revoked during that period. I acknowledge the tragedy of Dunblane but I was aggreived by the punishment meeted out by the Government. We shooters felt, rightly so, that we had been tarred by the brush.

TJ911...

bunny shooter

Trojan911 wrote:

You are spot on there. There was also kneejerk reaction in the UK in '97 when the revokation of sec1 FAC's was brought in because of Dunblane.

I also lived in the UK and my handguns were revoked during that period. I acknowledge the tragedy of Dunblane but I was aggreived by the punishment meeted out by the Government. We shooters felt, rightly so, that we had been tarred by the brush.

TJ911...

Hopefully same won't happen here in any shape or form

Kryten

alan123 wrote:

So back to the thread then; can you blame the Guards for not wanting to issue licences when there is no sporting value to 9mm pistols in Ireland??

A common misconception. Pistol shooting is still really in it's infancy here, but getting more popular and more structured. Pistol shoots, both full bore and rimfire are now being incorperated into National Shooting Calenders. Practical Pistol is a legitamite pistol target shooting discipline and is enjoyed by 32 nations (maybe more havent looked at the latest stats) worldwide.

You also have the WA1500 which comprises events in both revolver and automatics, including 9mm.

One of our members recently returned from the Jersey open with 5 medals for various pistol disciplines, including ISSF Centerfire pistol using a .38, also PP2 and service pistol B.

So Legitimate target shooting use for 9mm pistols, certainly is!!!!!

alan123

Understood. My firearms man tells me he has some complete headers looking for 9mm's. I think the main problem is picking out the good guys from the bad guys and some nutjobs can be very convincing about their genuine intrest in sport!

As an aside, could a criminal/header buy a gun and store it at the clayground/range and shoot it only at the clayground/range without holding a licence? i.e can criminals go and practice legally?!!!

sidneyreilly

alan123 wrote:

As an aside, could a criminal/header buy a gun and store it at the clayground/range and shoot it only at the clayground/range without holding a licence? i.e can criminals go and practice legally?!!!

Unlikely. Owner/operators/club members are very wary of such things. We dont want our sport banned because of letting a header in!