Muslim Integration?

dc69

Hi guys,
Just passing and wanted your opinion on this.I was talking to a friend of mine who recently refereed a football match between two teams of 9 year olds.One of the teams was an all muslim team which is fine but i am just wondering why would these parents not want there children to join a football team with no religious or ethnic criterias?If you are trying to integrate into western society this seems like an odd way to do it as it is just another road block in the integrating of the mixed beliefs and race youngsters we now have in ireland.

It just seems from someone looking from the point as a normal Irish person that it is a prime example of how you guys can learn from the mistakes that muslims have made in england,of creating segregation for themselves which in turn leads to fear.
When people attack others with muslim beliefs it is wrong!
but you have to see where they are coming from .when you see muslims at protests in town where they hold up signs relating to how ,ireland and the western world should convert to muslim and anyone who doesnt will face allah's wrath.

Do you not think segregation like this is just asking for trouble?because if young irish people do not mix with muslims in football team and schools etc,they wil not understand that not all muslims believe these narrowminded statements and are actually quite normal
Thanks
Dave

Karl Hungus

dc69 wrote:

If you are trying to integrate into western society

Who says they're trying to do that though?

dc69

dc69 wrote:

Hi guys,
Just passing and wanted your opinion on this.I was talking to a friend of mine who recently refereed a football match between two teams of 9 year olds.One of the teams was an all muslim team which is fine but i am just wondering why would these parents not want there children to join a football team with no religious or ethnic criterias?If you are trying to integrate into western society this seems like an odd way to do it as it is just another road block in the integrating of the mixed beliefs and race youngsters we now have in ireland.


but you have to see where they are coming from .when you see muslims at protests in town where they hold up signs relating to how ,ireland and the western world should convert to muslim and anyone who doesnt will face allah's wrath.

Er, there's a big difference between "everyone must convert or else" protests and a children's football team...?
In fairness, there's enough fundies in any religion who say everyone must convert or else...

dc69

Karl Hungus wrote:

Who says they're trying to do that though?

well they should be,if you are coming to a different country you should try to integrate as best you can.that is a ridiculous

what do you want in the future a hate filled ireland where people of different races and beliefs dont talk to each other.look at the north as an example !

dc69

bluewolf wrote:

Er, there's a big difference between "everyone must convert or else" protests and a children's football team...?
In fairness, there's enough fundies in any religion who say everyone must convert or else...

I know there is but do you not think a football team is the first step in creating segregation on purpose

dc69

dc69 wrote:

I know there is but do you not think a football team is the first step in creating segregation on purpose

Or they want the kids to have something in common?

dc69

bluewolf wrote:

Or they want the kids to have something in common?

they will always have something in common,but in my opinion basing a youths football team around their religion is stupid

the_new_mr

I agree actually. I think it's important to integrate in sport and that kind of thing because it allows the kids to see that they're more or less the same and to make friends different to themselves.

The formation of the team was probably the result of some innocent thing like a weekly get together for the Muslim kids to play football on Sundays and they decided to make a team or something. That's just a guess on my part

dc69

the_new_mr wrote:

I agree actually. I think it's important to integrate in sport and that kind of thing because it allows the kids to see that they're more or less the same and to make friends different to themselves.

The formation of the team was probably the result of some innocent thing like a weekly get together for the Muslim kids to play football on Sundays and they decided to make a team or something. That's just a guess on my part

exactly
Thank you

DinoBot

dc69 wrote:

Hi guys,

Do you not think segregation like this is just asking for trouble?because if young irish people do not mix with muslims in football team and schools etc,they wil not understand that not all muslims believe these narrowminded statements and are actually quite normal
Thanks
Dave

I agree with you 100% dc69, segregation like this is just asking for trouble. But you don't have to look too far to see its still a very common problem in our society.
Our local schools still have the policy of "non-catholics need not apply" although its not enforced until the numbers of catholics children are high enough like the recent case in Ballbriggin.

It was a real eye opener for me when I went to enlist my kids in school for the first time :mad:

I think segregation breeds a feeling of "us and them" which is not good for the integration of cultures and religions.

bus77

The Muslem religion is very encompassing, these lads would be going to the Mosque with each other every day. It's just natural to want to hang around with who you know and whats familiar. For any more intergration I think it would have to come down to a personal decicion on the persons part between their faith and the culture they are in.

DinoBot

bus77 wrote:

The Muslem religion is very encompassing, these lads would be going to the Mosque with each other every day. It's just natural to want to hang around with who you know and whats familiar. For any more intergration I think it would have to come down to a personal decicion on the persons part between their faith and the culture they are in.

But then these kids are thrown into the world of work, where they have to mix with different people of different religion and culture every day. I think that if you don't teach people the skills of integration as kids they suffer as adults.
How can kids make a "personal decision" between their faith and culture ??

mmalaka

I know some Muslims families here and they have kids, they do not force them to just play with Muslims; they go to clubs and Sport events and mix with other kids normally

I did not notice this un-Integration thing here in Ireland

A question: what was the match score ????

Sir Digby Chicken Caesar

surely you could say the same about Irish kids.

if muslim integration is such a huge issue for you, then go out personally and do something about it. meet some local muslims, befriend them and do your best to bring them into your community. that's what it takes, not government policy or a media campaign.

dc69

Mordeth wrote:

surely you could say the same about Irish kids.

if muslim integration is such a huge issue for you, then go out personally and do something about it. meet some local muslims, befriend them and do your best to bring them into your community. that's what it takes, not government policy or a media campaign.

you cant say the same for others at all.when the lads used to play gaa,there was asians ,blacks and whites on the team.that is the way it should be!
its not up to me as a non muslim to help them integrate,its up to the parents themselves.its of more benefit to them than me

wes

Well one example hardly means anything really. There any number of reasons that the team is all Muslim, some have suggested it may have formed from kids knowing each other from the Mosque. Also, they did go and play against a team who weren't all Muslims, so its not like they aren't getting involved in the wider community.

Still without more information, its hard to draw any real conclusions and all that can really be done is speculate at best.

I do agree that purposefully setting up an all Muslim team is silly and that anyone who want to join regardless or religion etc should be allowed. Having children of all different religions, races etc interact is a good idea as it will help integration and make things easier for all involved when they grow up.

fatal

Im a muslim and I know that I am gonna get alot of stick from other muslim for saying this but I agree that alot alot of muslims simply don't make enough of an effort to integrate into various aspects of society whether it is getting involved in sport or something else.
Im not expecting every single muslim to get up and start going to pubs/clubs but can we please take our heads out of the sand and stop thinking that drink is the only thing that Ireland offers.

wes

Fatal, any example of what Muslims are doing wrong?

Also, what should Muslims do to better integrate?

I think you may have a point, but without more detail its hard to make up ones mind.

fatal

wes wrote:

Fatal, any example of what Muslims are doing wrong?

Also, what should Muslims do to better integrate?

I think you may have a point, but without more detail its hard to make up ones mind.

Heres just one example from my own experience.As a member of a gym and martial arts club I have noticed that when I tend to tell people at the club/gym that I am a muslim,they will often imply by(their response) that im maybe one in a million-referring to the muslim aspect of it.If I was the only muslim in Ireland that had and interest in working out/martial arts,that would be fine but thats certainly is not the case.Why are we so hesitant in pursing something that we have an interest in just because we are living in "the west"?

Taking your child to the mosque every Saturday and Sunday and letting them mingle with their "muslim friends" and not letting them do anything with "christian friends" is certainly as far away from society as we can get.Yet,I couldn't tell you how often I saw this happening when I was growing up 10 years ago and how much I still see it today.In that time the size of the community has increased ten times over but we still haven't tried to iron out the differences between ourselves and "our neighbours".

wes

You make some good points. What do you think would be the best way to encourage Muslims who are interested in Martial arts, and other activities to do so? What could be done to change this?

I am not too sure about the friends things, most of my friends aren't Muslim and my parents had no problem with me having non-Muslim friends. Also, of the few Muslims friend I do have are in much the same situation.

Of course most kids are brought to the Mosque to learn religion, but for me thats where I only ever met Muslim children that I wasn't related to and that was only for an hour or so at worst. I am not sure that is really the cause of the problem. I think its the discouraging kids to make non-Muslim friends elsewhere thats more of an issue. We should certainly encourage children to mix with other religions etc and parents should be encourage to facilitate this for there children.

GUIGuy

Agreed, I don't think there's any agenda there... that's just the way things happen. But it obviously does take effort to break out of the normal easy patterns.

A question! How is the GAA perceived by the Muslims? While now it's by no means a Catholic club I know at one stage in Northern Ireland it might have been perceived as such... thankfully no longer. Would the GAA register as a positive, viable thing for Muslim parents or would it even register at all? Sport is nearly always good.

I think we can agree and should learn from the north, segregation is a BAD thing. Sad if we make the same mistakes again. I don't really think its up to the Muslims to try to 'integrate' per-se though, hopefully they just get stuck in and participate, and not self exclude. But I dunno if this is purely up to individuals or if religious/community leaders should giving gentle push in that direction.

An example of integration from Malaysia is the "Open House" (not to be confused with the Irish 'free gaff');) . During Hari Raya (festival of Eid in Malay) people open their houses to all comers to eat, give gifts, chat and generally have fun. Now while I don't think that's practical in durty ol' dublin, I must say it was impressive to be welcomed into relative strangers' homes. I was a little taken aback by how much food was eaten but then again I've been known to inhale chocolate at Easter! It was/is a Malay Muslim tradition... but not just for Muslims. In fact quite often Hindu and Chinese festivals coincide and all are welcome. It's unusual because the Indian's and Chinese now have DeepaRaya and Kongsi Raya... the festivals have begun to almost merge. And in a majority Muslim country Christmas is celebrated by all in almost the same manner.

Some Muslim scholars have criticized this phenomenon as it might lead to a dilution of Islam and syirik/shirk or polytheism by association (a bit of a no-no). But I fear it amounts to little more than "don't mix with that dodgy lot, they're up to no good!" Seems like old fashioned bigotry masked as 'defending the flock' to me... but that's common in all parts of the world, we're not so different after all.

So that brings me back to Ireland and a question that might be difficult to answer. Do you think that there is a real desire/aspiration to become Irish and to enrich and participate in the cultural life of the nation? Also to define yourself as being Irish first, and being a Muslim or Ethnicity second/third? I don't know myself, I don't think there is a right answer. Maybe some do, maybe some want to live their own private separate lives, maybe some would like to integrate but find some Irish a bit 'coarse' (Thanks Mr. Ambassador!).

I hate our tendency (and I'm guilty myself) to label groups "the [insert vague grouping] community" because that's self perpetuating. If you keep on categorizing people as members of the Traveler/Gay/Muslim community you deny them their individuality and quite possibly they will band together to define themselves primarily as being that group.

In the end I think its each individual's responsibility (like many on in this forum), and not groups to actively get stuck in, participate, and let their good nature shine through their open mind!
Wow did I sound like a ranting hippy?

Hobbes

I am hoping some of you people can help me out. I was looking through the boards.ie Wiki the other day and noticed that Boards.ie has a football team.

I was wondering why the guys on this football team don't join other football teams. Clearly this is segregation?

I even found that my company has their own football team made up of all employees of the same company. Why aren't they joining other companies football teams? How do they plan to integrate?

... For those people who the last paragraphs went over peoples heads. It has nothing to do with integration. It is more likely the local mosque has an organised football team and you were probably looking at them.

How do you know that they only play on that team? Or that this is some kind of stand against integration?

Bottle_of_Smoke

GUIGuy wrote:

A question! How is the GAA perceived by the Muslims? While now it's by no means a Catholic club I know at one stage in Northern Ireland it might have been perceived as such... thankfully no longer. Would the GAA register as a positive, viable thing for Muslim parents or would it even register at all? Sport is nearly always good.

I doubt it would even register, actually when I was at the first night time GAA match @ croke park, (Dublin/Tyrone I think)they had a special half time match for non-national gaa kids. They called out the kids names on the speakers & there was a fair few Mohammeds playing.

the_new_mr

I LOVE GAA!! I can't play (although I was often encouraged to train up to play for my local club's reserves... ya never know, might happen in the future) but it's my favourite ball sport to watch.

Have to say, I really liked your post GUIGuy. You're very welcome here on the Islam forum. Don't think you've posted here before but I hope you do again.

I think that what goes on in Malaysia is great. I'm a Muslim with Western/Arab origins but, once again, Malaysia show us how it's done I think I can see where the scholars are coming from in the celebrating of other peoples' festivals. As a Muslim, you're completely obliged to wish your non-Muslim neighbour all the best for the holidays but I think you have to draw the line at putting up common decorations or there will be a weird merge that will be difficult to separate in a couple of centuries. In general though, I think the example set up by the Malaysians is really something to aspire to.

I guess it is down to the individuals but I think that community leaders can take the initiative and try and arrange something in the hope to motivate others to join in. From my experience, people usually have no problem with integrating but are usually just too lazy to do it and just find it easier to head down to so-and-so's house for tea because there's no effort required/language barrier etc.

I hope that everyone on this thread who is in favour of integration makes the effort to actually try and integrate. If you're a Muslim, make effort to integrate into the community and if you're a non-Muslim, make effort to integrate Muslims into your community.

This thread is just sooooooooo positive!!

condra

Surely the fact that these kids are playing sport in the Irish community in the first place, means there is some integration both for the kids and the parents.

Sport teaches kids virtues such as fair play, and a healthy respect for their peers aswell as rivals.

Maybe one day one of these kids might represent Ireland on the world stage. That would be cool.

smirkingmaurice

Enough of the nonsense, i recently took part in an adult game of basketball, 5 muslims versus 5 catholics and it was great crack for all involved, it adds that extra spark of competitiveness, you don't have to take on a crusader mindset when playing team sports, in fact it strengthened our repect for one another, one of the muslim boys even joined us for a pint afterwards,great crack

KIVES

I think the phrase mountain and molehill maybe apt here - attended a highly competitive quiz night in my local cricket club last August and there were several members of the muslim community on one of the opposition teams - as we were leading them by a couple of points there were a few 'fatwah' comments passed by one of the team against a quiz buff on our side - all these comments were taken in jest and nobody blinked an eyelid - in any case, the guy issuing the jestful 'fatwhs' is the wicket-keeper on our cricket team so I think an honour killing may be out of the question as he has six months of his contract to run - fair play to him - and yes, in response to the complimentary comments made above about Malaysia and how it integrates it's varying communities I agree wholeheartedly...

smirkingmaurice

Funny you mention it that was the running joke of our basketball game, "if you get a 3 pointer we'll have a fatwh out on ye", he he, mighty crack, it was a great game that ended in a few scones and tea and a good night out

InFront

GUIGuy wrote: »

How is the GAA perceived by the Muslims?

Hard question to answer, but I've never come across it being perceived in a bad light and I know a reasonable number of families whose kids (<15yo) are involved in school's GAA.

One of my earliest introductions to Irish life was the GAA schools scene of rural GAA-mad Tipperary as a wiry 8 year old with a Londonstani accent. After a few too many blows from crazy-fast little Cuchullains wielding hurleys bigger than themselves, I quickly learned what was good for me and retreated, limbs intact, back to the safety of the soccer pitches:) Still appreciate hurling and its skill a lot, and no doubt as the current generation of primary school kids mature, their presence will become more and more a feature on the GAA scene.

Suff

Hold on for a sec.....

Are you looking at this from a racial or a religious sense??

If you by religious then what about professional footbal clubs such as Celtic and Rangers? they'r membership and fans all based on religious backround.

Also how could you tell that they were all muslim? did their jerseys stated something islamic?

gillyfromlyre

Is there any stage that the muslims can let their hair down and join the irish lads for a few pints of stout, strictly no talk on religion or politics as they say he he