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Once saved always saved is a false doctrine..
Comments
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BrianCalgary wrote:I feel bad about all the sins I commit. I just don't worry about my salvation, because it is secure.
If I were to slide back into my former life in a small way I would still be saved. But it is a moot point because I have no desire to commit those sins anymore.
The Holy Spirit has worked wonderfully to remove those desires from me.
But in the end it is what is in the heart that counts, my heart is to serve God and to accept His grace.
So there is nothing you can do, ever, that means you won't be saved?
Is that supported by the Bible, or is it your opinion?0 -
Not sure.
Forgive me for saying this Brian, but your position seems a little complacent. There is nothing in scripture that guarantees you will be saved. We are all human and we are all subject to temptation. Jesus never promised that our struggle against sin would cease when we decide to follow Him.BrianCalgary wrote:If I were to slide back into my former life in a small way I would still be saved. But it is a moot point because I have no desire to commit those sins anymore.
The Holy Spirit has worked wonderfully to remove those desires from me.
Why did Christ pray for Peter if He was already saved? See:Luke 22:31 And the Lord said: Simon, Simon, behold Satan hath desired to have you, that he may sift you as wheat: 32 But I have prayed for thee, that thy faith fail not.
See also:Matthew 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven
Matthew 24:12 And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold. 24:13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved
Luke 8:13 They on the rock are they, which, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, which for a while believe, and in time of temptation fall away
Acts 14:22 Confirming the souls of the disciples, and exhorting them to continue in the faith, and that we must through much tribulation enter into the kingdom of God.
Romans 11:20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear: 11:21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee. 11:22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.
1 Cor 9:27 But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway.
1 Cor 10:12 Wherefore let him that thinketh he standeth take heed lest he fall.
Phil 2:12 Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.
God bless,
Noel.0 -
Not sure.For the people who believe in OSAS, here are two passages from scripture
that appear to contradict each other. Which one is true?
ORRomans 10:9 For if thou confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and believe in thy heart that God hath raised him up from the dead, thou shalt be saved.Matthew 7:21 Not every one that saith to me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven: but he that doth the will of my Father who is in heaven, he shall enter into the kingdom of heaven.
Is it right to choose the first and dismiss the second? People need to realize that up to the time of Calvin, OSAS was either unheard of or heretical. Even Luther didn't preach OSAS! So why believe it? Isn't it just a bit crazy to suggest that the Church had got it wrong for about 1500 years and that Calvin discovered the truth of the matter??
God bless,
Noel.0 -
kelly1 wrote:For the people who believe in OSAS, here are two passages from scripture
that appear to contradict each other. Which one is true?
My reading of Matt 7:21 is that Jesus is talking about people who proclaim he is a lord without recognizing that God is the Lord and that people must follow God. Don't think it applies to OSAS either way.0 -
Not sure.kelly1 wrote:For the people who believe in OSAS, here are two passages from scripture that appear to contradict each other. Which one is true?
Romans 10:9 For if thou confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and believe in thy heart that God hath raised him up from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
OR
Matthew 7:21 Not every one that saith to me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven: but he that doth the will of my Father who is in heaven, he shall enter into the kingdom of heaven.
To answer the question, read 2nd Thessalonians 1vs8 "In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that KNOW NOT GOD, and that OBEY NOT THE GOSPEL of our Lord Jesus Christ"
Those that "KNOW NOT GOD" are the unsaved, those not born again, that reject christ as their lord and saviour (Romans 10vs9).
Those that "OBEY NOT THE GOSPEL" of our lord Jesus Christ are the saved that deliberatly do not obey the Gospel, the backsliders, the burnt vine branches, those that have given up their faith and have fallen back into the world. (These would be the very ones spoken of in Matthew 7vs 21).0 -
Those that believe "once saved always saved" is a false docterine.Run to da hills
This is why Jesus specified in Matthew 7:13-23 that the way to salvation is a "Narrow way".
…..and the ‘narrow way’ is Jesus Christ and Him crucified!!!
Originally Posted by J C
Can you see that under your position, NOBODY can be saved ……..because they will be almost instantly ‘unsaved’ when they commit their first sin after believing on Jesus Christ????
Run to da hills
James gives a good answer to your question when he is addressing the BELIEVERS, "But each one is tempted when he is drawn away by his own desires and enticed. Then, when desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, brings forth death. (Spiritual death)". "Brethren, if anyone among you wanders from the truth, and someone turns him back, let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save his soul from death (Spiritual death again) and cover a multitude of sins". James 5:19,20. It it up to the saved christian to avoid deliberatly sinning and "nip it in the bud" by repentance should he fall.
The KJV of James 5:19-20 is “Brethren, if any of you do err from the truth, and one convert him;
Let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins.”
The error that you are committing, is to assume that the 'death' referred to in these verses is spiritual death.
Sin causes physical death (which applies to both the saved and the unsaved)……but spiritual death is the exclusive state of the unsaved!!!
The saved Christian should avoid sinning because of it’s negative temporal effects and out of love and respect for God and His Word…….but one way or the other they will always remain saved.
Originally Posted by J C
There are many uncertainties in this life, but your soul’s salvation does NOT need to be one of them. You can KNOW beyond a shadow of a doubt that you are saved and on your way to heaven. “These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may KNOW that ye have eternal life” (1st John 5:13).
Run to da hills
Jesus will TAKE THIS PRIVILAGE AWAY if you deliberatly fall away, ie Read the parable of the Vine "If anyone does not abide in Me, he is thrown away as a branch and dries up; and they gather them, and cast them into the fire and they are BURNT (John 15vs6)
The saved ALWAYS abide in Jesus Christ (and His Holy Spirit in them)…….Jesus was referring to the people who do not abide in Him i.e. the unsaved in this verse…………and EVERYONE He was addressing were unsaved at that time, because Jesus had not yet died on the cross for sin.......and so salvation had not yet begun at that time!!!!
Run to da hills
So my pre Christian livelyhood was selling counterfeit xxx videos, dealing in dope and getting pissed regularly, I get delivered from all this through the blood of Jesus Christ by repentance. A year I backslide and end up back doing the exact same thing again, Am I am still in my "saved" state? I would hardly think so. 1 Corrinthians vs6 is very specific. "Know ye not that the unrighteous SHALL NOT INHERIT the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind", Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.
……and if you read on……. you will find that 1 Cor 6:11-12 says “ And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.
All things are lawful unto me, but all things are not expedient: all things are lawful for me, but I will not be brought under the power of any.”
In other words such HABITUALLY sinful states were the condition of many Christians BEFORE they were saved……. but after being saved these sins are wiped away.
In addition, because all things are lawful onto a Christian, all FUTURE sins are also wiped away…….but The Saved should refrain from licence and habitual sinning.
Because the Saved are indwelt by the Holy Spirit, they will try to avoid sin (but they may not always succeed)!!!
Jesus confirms the 'once saved always saved' state of the Christian in the following verses:-
Jn 10:27-29” My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.
Run to da hills
I know well that if I "return to my Vomit", and deliberatly sin against God I will be danmed and worse off than the unsaved. We are warned in 1 Peter 5:8 "Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour" to devour means to "consume", "waste", "destroy", "annihilate". Peter is talking to the believer being "consumed" by Satan.
A dog who returns to his vomit hasn’t changed his state, and is STILL a dog………so, people who gladly ‘return to their vomit’ also HAVEN’T changed their state and they haven't been saved!!!!
The saved may sin……but they always regret it and repent of it.
Satan ultimately has no power over a saved Christian who is indwelt by the Holy Spirit…….we are told to resist him and he shall flee ......just like he had to flee when Jesus resisted him in the desert and at the temple in Mt 4:1-11.
Satan may devour the unsaved...who have no power (and sometimes no inclination) to rebuke him!!!
Run to da hills
I know well that if I "return to my Vomit", and deliberatly sin against God I will be danmed and worse off than the unsaved. We are warned in 1 Peter 5:8 "Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour" to devour means to "consume", "waste", "destroy", "annihilate". Peter is talking to the believer being "consumed" by Satan.
…..so let’s see WHO Peter was talking about in relation to ‘returning to their vomit’….
2Pe 2:17-22 These are wells without water, clouds that are carried with a tempest; to whom the mist of darkness is reserved for ever.
For when they speak great swelling words of vanity, they allure through the lusts of the flesh, through much wantonness, those that were clean escaped from them who live in error.
While they promise them liberty, they themselves are the servants of corruption: for of whom a man is overcome, of the same is he brought in bondage.
For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.
For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.
But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.
These are ‘wells without water’ i.e. unsaved people who claim to be Christians.
They have escaped some of the physical punishments of the world, through following Biblical principles and the Word of Jesus Christ, but they haven’t believed on Jesus to forgive their sins ….and thus they are not saved.
Originally Posted by J C
Hell is the BIGGEST problem for the unsaved ……because they will go there if they die…..and believe me, nobody wants to go there!!!!!!!
Run to da hills
Hell is the BIGGEST problem for the unsaved ……because they will go there WHEN they die. (Hebrews 9vs27).
As I have said, Hell is the BIGGEST problem for the unsaved ……because they will go there IF they die, and they haven't been saved!!!
Kelly1
I think this passage clearly shows that salvation can be lost:
Hebrews 10:26 For if we sin wilfully after having the knowledge of the truth, there is now left no sacrifice for sins, 27 But a certain dreadful expectation of judgment, and the rage of a fire which shall consume the adversaries.
This was again addressed to the UNSAVED, who continue to set their face against salvation, despite having knowledge of Jesus Christ as the means of salvation. This verse points out that “there is now left no sacrifice for sins”……so that we cannot save ourselves by good works or sacrifices to cover our sins..….but only by believing on Jesus Christ.
Kelly1
Forgive me for saying this Brian, but your position seems a little complacent. There is nothing in scripture that guarantees you will be saved. We are all human and we are all subject to temptation. Jesus never promised that our struggle against sin would cease when we decide to follow Him.
We are all human and we are all subject to temptation. Jesus never promised that our struggle against sin would cease when we decide to follow Him……but He will permanently save (form eternal perdition) everyone who believes on Him!!!
Kelly1
Why did Christ pray for Peter if He was already saved? See:
Luke 22:31 And the Lord said: Simon, Simon, behold Satan hath desired to have you, that he may sift you as wheat: 32 But I have prayed for thee, that thy faith fail not.
Peter WASN’T saved at the time……..Jesus hadn’t died on the cross for the remission of sin at that stage……so salvation wasn’t possible for anybody at that time…….and Judas was subsequently lost!!!
Kelly1
Matthew 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven
These are the unsaved people who claim to be Christians, who are full of outward show but who haven’t believed on Jesus Christ to save them.
Kelly1
Matthew 24:12 And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold. 24:13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved
This will be the situation during the End Times when some people will be saved by believing on Jesus Christ AFTER enduring the tribulation.
Kelly1
Luke 8:13 They on the rock are they, which, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, which for a while believe, and in time of temptation fall away
These are the unsaved people who claim to be Christians,who are full of outward show but who “have no root” …….because they haven’t believed on Jesus Christ to save them.
Kelly1
Acts 14:22 Confirming the souls of the disciples, and exhorting them to continue in the faith, and that we must through much tribulation enter into the kingdom of God.
Saved Christians are not protected from physical tribulation……..but the fact that they know that they are saved provides great comfort to them during it!!!
Kelly1
Romans 11:20-22 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear: For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee. Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.
Paul was referring here, to some unsaved members of Gentile NATIONS being cut off ……and NOT the individually saved members of these nations ……..who were already saved ….. and therefore guaranteed to continue in their salvation.
Kelly1
1 Cor 9:27 But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway.
The word ‘castaway’ as used in the context of this verse means that Paul wanted to avoid being ‘rejected’ or cast away, (by the people that Paul had preached to).
Kelly1
1 Cor 10:12 Wherefore let him that thinketh he standeth take heed lest he fall.
Paul is using something similar to the well know proverb ‘that pride comes before a fall’ in this verse.
However, such a ‘fall’ will NOT ‘unsave’ a saved Christian….and Paul confirms that he is actually above the law because he is saved in 1Cor 10:23…..but this does not give him licence to sin because of the negative temporal consequences and the scandal that would result from such sinning.
1Co 10:23 All things are lawful for me, but all things are not expedient: all things are lawful for me, but all things edify not.
Kelly1
Phil 2:12 Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling
The Holy Spirit indwells all saved Christians……who do indeed sense the presence of God within themselves .......with fear and trembling (or reverent awe) at the enormous privilege (and responsibility) that such a close personal relationship with God confers.
Kelly1
For the people who believe in OSAS, here are two passages from scripture
that appear to contradict each other. Which one is true?
Romans 10:9 For if thou confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and believe in thy heart that God hath raised him up from the dead, thou shalt be saved
OR
Matthew 7:21 Not every one that saith to me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven: but he that doth the will of my Father who is in heaven, he shall enter into the kingdom of heaven
They are BOTH true and not contradictory.
Rom 10:9 confirms that confessing your belief that Jesus Christ is risen from the dead …..and therefore that He is the Redeemer capable of forgiving sin will save you……it is the same advice given by Paul in Acts 16:31 to say but the words "I believe on Jesus Christ" and you WILL be saved.
Mat 7:21 confirms that there will be unsaved people who claim to be Christians, who will make a great show of external piety…….but who haven’t placed their faith in Jesus Christ to save them.
Run to da hills
read 2nd Thessalonians 1vs8 "In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that KNOW NOT GOD, and that OBEY NOT THE GOSPEL of our Lord Jesus Christ"
Those that "KNOW NOT GOD" are the unsaved, those not born again, that reject christ as their lord and saviour (Romans 10vs9).
Those that "OBEY NOT THE GOSPEL" of our lord Jesus Christ are the saved that deliberatly do not obey the Gospel, the backsliders, the burnt vine branches, those that have given up their faith and have fallen back into the world.
Those who ‘know not God’ and ‘obey not the Gospel’ are the unsaved. The saved are indwelt with the Holy Spirit and therefore they know God and they also TRY to obey the Gospel.
NOBODY will succeed in perfectly obeying the Gospel …….but the saved STRIVE to do so.
Run for da hills
I know now from my own experience that no matter how far a saved person will fall away, God will always accept him back, however I do believe that if I would have died in my back sliden state, I would have some serious explaining to give on Judgement day and I would have been worse off than the unsaved because I had the knowledge of the truth and deliberatly turned my back on it
'Backsliding' should be avoided because of our love for God, because of the scandal that it may cause to fellow Christians and the unsaved, because of the temporal punishment that it may trigger from Law Enforcement Agencies and because of the physical and psychological trauma (including accelerated disease and physical death) that it may cause the Backslider and their fellow man !!!
......BUT 'backsliding' will NOT 'unsave' somebody, who is already saved!!!0 -
Not sure.
Yes this is obvious and of course if you fall back into sin and backslide into your old ways of life you are no longer living the "narrow way".Run to da hills
This is why Jesus specified in Matthew 7:13-23 that the way to salvation is a "Narrow way". and the ‘narrow way’ is Jesus Christ and Him crucified!!!
I already quoted James on this one, Sin if left unchecked will build up and lead to spiritual death. A newly saved person knows well when he sins, God will convict him and lead him to repentance, and he will seek God for forgiveness (1 John 1vs9) If on the other hand the person decides to ignore Gods plan and carry on knowingly sinning he will fooling himself and will be worse off than if he was saved if he dies in his sin.Can you see that under your position, NOBODY can be saved ……..because they will be almost instantly ‘unsaved’ when they commit their first sin after believing on Jesus Christ????[/I][/B]The KJV of James 5:19-20 is “Brethren, if any of you do err from the truth, and one convert him;
Let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins.”
The error that you are committing, is to assume that the 'death' referred to in these verses is spiritual death.
Sin causes physical death (which applies to both the saved and the unsaved)……but spiritual death is the exclusive state of the unsaved.
Not true, the saved can end up in the same condemnation as the Devil. Read 1 timothy 3vs6, when the Apostle Paul wrote to Timothy he warned about new converts taking up the office of a Bishop. "Not a novice, lest being lifted up with pride he fall into the condemnation of the devil". I Timothy 3:6
Here we see the importance of spiritual maturity when it comes time to appoint elders to the local assembly. Timothy is warned that a recent convert should not be placed in a position of spiritual authority because his pride could cause him to fall under the same judgement/condemnation of the devil. We know that the devil's judgement is none other than the lake of fire. I'll post this in several translations, so you can really get the feel of this passage from the Greek language:
I Timothy 3:6 He must not be a recent convert, or he may become conceited and fall under the same judgment as the devil. (NIV)
I Timothy 3:6 and not a new convert, so that he will not become conceited and fall into the condemnation incurred by the devil.(NASB)The saved Christian should avoid sinning because of it’s negative temporal effects and out of love and respect for God and His Word…….but one way or the other they will always remain saved.
Paul again addressing Timothy, "For some have already turned aside after Satan".1 Timothy 5:15 Note: They no longer followed Christ. To come to Christ is not a one-time deal and it is all over with. You can turn aside after Satan just like these people did. Don't do it!
2nd Thessalonians 1vs8 "In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that KNOW NOT GOD, and that OBEY NOT THE GOSPEL of our Lord Jesus Christ"
How can the unsaved "OBEY NOT THE GOSPEL" of our Lord Jesus Christ" IF THEY DO NOT KNOW THE GOSPEL TO BEGIN WITH, Im talking of Athiests, Muslims, Hindus, even "Christian religions", etc. The Apostle Paul is addressing those that KNOW the gospel, ie the SAVED and who do not obey it.Those who ‘know not God’ and ‘obey not the Gospel’ are the unsaved. The saved are indwelt with the Holy Spirit and therefore they know God and they also TRY to obey the Gospel.
NOBODY will succeed in perfectly obeying the Gospel …….but the saved STRIVE to do so.'Backsliding' should be avoided because of the scandal that it may cause to fellow Christians and the unsaved, because of the temporal punishment that it may trigger from Law Enforcement Agencies and because of the physical and psychological trauma (including accelerated disease and physical death) that it may cause the Backslider and their fellow man!!!
BUT 'backsliding' will NOT 'unsave' somebody, who is already saved!!!
Backsliding MUST be avoided at all costs because not alone dose it put Christ to shame, it will also send your soul to hell! "For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries". Hebrews 10:260 -
Those that believe "once saved always saved" is a false docterine.Originally Posted by J C
This is why Jesus specified in Matthew 7:13-23 that the way to salvation is a "Narrow way". and the ‘narrow way’ is Jesus Christ and Him crucified!!!
Run to da hills
Yes this is obvious and of course if you fall back into sin and backslide into your old ways of life you are no longer living the "narrow way".
The ‘narrow way’ of Jesus Christ and Him crucified is the MEANS of our salvation!!!
Originally Posted by J C
Can you see that under your position, NOBODY can be saved ……..because they will be almost instantly ‘unsaved’ when they commit their first sin after believing on Jesus Christ????
Run to da hills
I already quoted James on this one, Sin if left unchecked will build up and lead to spiritual death. A newly saved person knows well when he sins, God will convict him and lead him to repentance, and he will seek God for forgiveness (1 John 1vs9) If on the other hand the person decides to ignore Gods plan and carry on knowingly sinning he will fooling himself and will be worse off than if he was saved if he dies in his sin.
If sin is unchecked in EITHER the saved or the unsaved it can lead to PHYSICAL death!!!
A saved person who repents, will be saved further temporal punishment by not repeating his sin.
If on the other hand the person decides to carry on sinning, he will run the risk of further temporal punishment up to and including premature physical death for his sin…….but his salvation will remain intact.
In point of fact, 1Jo 1:8-10 confirms that saved Christians who deny that they are sinners, and in CONTINUOUS need of Gods forgiveness, (which comes from salvation) are deceived!!
If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.
Run to da hills
the saved can end up in the same condemnation as the Devil. Read 1 timothy 3vs6, when the Apostle Paul wrote to Timothy he warned about new converts taking up the office of a Bishop.
Not a novice, lest being lifted up with pride he fall into the condemnation of the devil. I Timothy 3:6
Here we see the importance of spiritual maturity when it comes time to appoint elders to the local assembly. Timothy is warned that a recent convert should not be placed in a position of spiritual authority because his pride could cause him to fall under the same judgement/condemnation of the devil.
OK, so let’s look at the qualifications for a bishop in I Tim 1-7:-
This is a true saying, If a man desire the office of a bishop, he desireth a good work.
A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, vigilant, sober, of good behaviour, given to hospitality, apt to teach;
Not given to wine, no striker, not greedy of filthy lucre; but patient, not a brawler, not covetous;
One that ruleth well his own house, having his children in subjection with all gravity;
(For if a man know not how to rule his own house, how shall he take care of the church of God?)
Not a novice, lest being lifted up with pride he fall into the condemnation of the devil.
Moreover he must have a good report of them which are without; lest he fall into reproach and the snare of the devil.
ALL of the above are QUALIFICATIONS/CONDITIONS to be looked for, in selecting a bishop, so as to avoid scandal amongst both Christians and the unsaved, thereby ensuring that the work of salvation isn’t set back by an inappropriate choice of man for bishop.
This proves that the saved (including bishops) may fall into sin…….but it doesn’t indicate that they will lose their salvation because of sin.
Paul warns Timothy that a novice may have so much pride that HIS CONGREGATION may reject/condemn him as bishop, just like THEY reject/condemn the devil for the same vice.
The spiritual states of the saved and the devil are not comparable……the devil is eternally and irrevocably condemned while the saved are eternally and irrevocably saved!!!!
Originally Posted by J C
The saved Christian should avoid sinning because of it’s negative temporal effects and out of love and respect for God and His Word…….but, one way or the other, they will always remain saved
Run to da hills
Paul again addressing Timothy, "For some have already turned aside after Satan".1 Timothy 5:15 Note: They no longer followed Christ. To come to Christ is not a one-time deal and it is all over with. You can turn aside after Satan just like these people did. Don't do it!
Every time we sin (no matter how minor) we 'turn aside after Satan'!!
So, let’s look at 1 Tim 5:11-15
I will therefore that the younger women marry, bear children, guide the house, give none occasion to the adversary to speak reproachfully.
For some are already turned aside after Satan.
This admonishment is addressed to younger widows, with the advice that marriage will help them to avoid sin, especially because some young widows were already leading sinful lives.
Your advice to avoid sin is indeed good advice.
'Backsliding' should be avoided because of our love for God, because of the scandal that it may cause to fellow Christians and the unsaved, because of the temporal punishment that it may trigger from Law Enforcement Agencies and because of the physical and psychological trauma (including accelerated disease and physical death) that it may cause the 'Backslider' and their fellow man!!!
......BUT 'backsliding' will NOT 'unsave' somebody, who is already saved!!!
Saved Christians who deny that they are sinners, and in CONTINUOUS need of Gods forgiveness, (which comes from salvation) are deceived!!
Saved Christians are under Gods Grace and not His Law.....and they therefore remain exempt from God's Judgement for sin.....not because of any merit on their parts lest any man should boast!!!
The unsaved remain under God's Law ..... and therefore under His condemnation for sin!!!
God Bless
J C0 -
Those that believe "once saved always saved" is a false docterine.Run_to_da_hills wrote: »How can the unsaved "OBEY NOT THE GOSPEL" of our Lord Jesus Christ" IF THEY DO NOT KNOW THE GOSPEL TO BEGIN WITH, Im talking of Athiests, Muslims, Hindus, even "Christian religions", etc. The Apostle Paul is addressing those that KNOW the gospel, ie the SAVED and who do not obey it.
There are many unsaved people who intellectually know the Gospel of Jesus Christ......but they aren't saved because they haven't relied on Jesus Christ to cover their sins.Run_to_da_hills wrote: »Backsliding MUST be avoided at all costs because not alone dose it put Christ to shame, it will also send your soul to hell! "For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries". Hebrews 10:26
As I have said this verse was addressed to the UNSAVED, who continue to set their face against salvation, despite having knowledge of Jesus Christ as the means of salvation. This verse points out that “there is now left no sacrifice for sins”……so that we cannot save ourselves by good works or sacrifices….but only by believing on Jesus Christ.
Because EVERY Christian 'backslides' to some degree (no matter how minor, in most cases)......the alternative is therefore to accept that the saved lose their salvation every time they sin .....which is pretty much 24/7 up to the moment of death.......unlesss you have discovered the secret of a sinless life???
However, such a conclusion would 'fly in the face' of Jesus Christ's assurances to the saved in Jn 10:27-29
”My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand."0 -
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Not sure.So in other words there is a different rule book for those who are "saved" and have backslid and have deliberately disobey the Gospel, ie stealing, getting Drunk, and having having unlawful sex despite the fact that it clearly states in 1Corrinthians 6 verse 9 11 “Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God".
Quoting from James again, sin builds up and when full blown brings forth death. "A new person in Christ" knows well when he sins against god, he is convicted and will almost immediately ask God for forgiveness, however as time goes on the Backslider he may be tempted, sin eventually starts to dominate his life to such an extent that he even forgets the fact that he was ever saved in beginning, he no longer fellowships, attends church or reads the bible, this was my case for almost 20 years, However I was fortunate that I was led into a situation that I had to cry out to God for forgiveness, I heard his voice and followed him. Others would have been less fortunate.Because EVERY Christian 'backslides' to some degree (no matter how minor, in most cases).the alternative is therefore to accept that the saved lose their salvation every time they sin .And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand."
This verse would explain that no other person can take away your salvation, for example, The Christians that were burnt alive at the stake in their millions by the crusaders of the Church of Rome for denying its teachings. No matter what destruction that was caused to their physical bodies their souls was saved and in Gods hands.
Did the Lord Jesus teach that one moment of faith would guarantee eternal salvation? Speaking to His disciples as He was sending them out to preach the gospel and heal the sick, He warns them, “And ye shall be hated of all men for my name’s sake: BUT HE THAT ENDURETH TO THE END SHALL BE SAVED." (Matt. 10:22)
In John 8:31-32 we see Jesus speaking to some Jews that the Bible says had believed in Him. Jesus tells these believers, “if ye continue in my word, then are ye My disciples indeed; and ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.” Jesus tells these believers that THEY MUST CONTINUE in His word to come to know the truth and to be made free. In Luke 8:13 we see Jesus in the process of explaining the parable of the sower to His disciples. He makes the point to them that there are some people who “believe” for a while but in time of temptation or trial, they fall away. Can this statement be any plainer from our Lord? Here we need to ask ourselves a question, can someone fall away from something if they had never been there in the first place? It doesn’t appear that Jesus believed that one moment of faith would guarantee eternal salvation as many teachers today believe and teaching.
To conclude, If I were to name two doctrines that I felt were responsible for sending more souls to hell I would name one of them as OSAS and the other one Infant baptism.0 -
Those that believe "once saved always saved" is a false docterine.kelly1 said:
Correct. We are in the war until the day of our departure to be with Him.Jesus never promised that our struggle against sin would cease when we decide to follow Him.
Because that is the infallible means God uses to keep us saved. Christ is our Great High Priest, continually representing us before His Father. God has predestined the ends - the salvation of everyone of Christ's sheep. He also has appointed the means - the work of the Holy Spirit in regenerating us, sanctifiying us, comforting us; Christ's atonement for our sins on Golgotha, His resurrection and ascension to be our High Priest, His coming again to receive us to Himself forever; our persevering in the faith, despite any falls into sin. None of these things can fail. None of His sheep will be lost, for He will keep His part, and will make sure we keep ours.Why did Christ pray for Peter if He was already saved?
Look at the golden chain of salvation in:
Romans 8:28 And we know that all things work together for good to those who love God, to those who are the called according to His purpose. 29 For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren. 30 Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified.
No link missing from eternity past to eternity to come.
Remember the terms of the New Covenant:
Jeremiah 31:31 “Behold, the days are coming, says the LORD, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah— 32 not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt, My covenant which they broke, though I was a husband to them, says the LORD. 33 But this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the LORD: I will put My law in their minds, and write it on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people.
Our salvation is not on the terms of the Old Covenant - 'Do this and live', which covenant no mere man could keep. The New Covenant is one where God ensures that we keep it: He writes it on our hearts. Result: I will be their God, and they shall be My people..0 -
Those that believe "once saved always saved" is a false docterine.Run to da hills
So in other words there is a different rule book for those who are "saved"
There certainly IS a different rule for the saved………they are saved by God’s Grace and ALL their sins are forgiven by God through NO merit on their part!!!
....while the unsaved continue under God's Judgement for their sins!!!
Run to da hills
So in other words there is a different rule book for those who are "saved" and have backslid and have deliberately disobey the Gospel, ie stealing, getting Drunk, and having having unlawful sex despite the fact that it clearly states in 1Corrinthians 6 verse 9 11 “Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God".
Yes, all your past, present and future sins are forgiven when you are saved…….and ‘the unrighteous’ in 1 Cor 6:9-11 are the unsaved!!
The ONLY alternative proposition is that your eternal destiny is determined by your state of sin at the moment of your death…..and because ANY sin cannot be tolerated by God, EVERYONE is either doomed (because they will have SOME unrepented sin) or a concept like Purgatory will be required to purge unrepented sins.
There is NO ‘half-way house’ that is possible between the concepts of being PERMANENTLY saved at a particular point during your life....... or being saved by PURGING your ‘minor sins’ after your death!!!!
The Bible makes NO reference to the possibility of purging your sins….and it doesn't distinguish between 'minor' and 'major' sins.....
.......therefore OSAS is the ONLY biblically supported means of salvation from ALL sin!!!
Run to da hills
Quoting from James again, sin builds up and when full blown brings forth death.
Yes, sin can cause physical death!!!
Run to da hills
"A new person in Christ" knows well when he sins against god, he is convicted and will almost immediately ask God for forgiveness,
Yes, you will be able to identify the major sins (from a Human perspective)……but there will be many sins that you won’t even remember……but they will ALL be an affront to God……..and the ONLY way that they can be forgiven is because you are permanently saved…..and ALL your past, present and future sins were forgiven when you were saved.
Run to da hills
however as time goes on the Backslider he may be tempted, sin eventually starts to dominate his life to such an extent that he even forgets the fact that he was ever saved in beginning, he no longer fellowships, attends church or reads the bible, this was my case for almost 20 years, However I was fortunate that I was led into a situation that I had to cry out to God for forgiveness, I heard his voice and followed him. Others would have been less fortunate.
IF somebody forgets that they were ever saved then the fact they were ever saved may be in doubt.
Either way, IF you are correct, and future sin will ‘unsave’ you, then you had better get ready for a spell in Purgatory (or even a permanent abode in Hell) when you die….because that last lustful thought about your hospital nurse will mean that you will die in unrepented sin….and you seem to believe that unrepented sin will not be forgiven by God!!!!
Originally Posted by J C
And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand."
Run to da hills
This verse would explain that no other person can take away your salvation, for example, The Christians that were burnt alive at the stake in their millions by the crusaders of the Church of Rome for denying its teachings. No matter what destruction that was caused to their physical bodies their souls was saved and in Gods hands.
The verses indicate that God gives eternal life to the saved and they shall NEVER perish …..as well as no other person being able to take away your salvation.
The people who died in the Crusades will have eternal life if they were saved BEFORE they died!!!
Run to da hills
Did the Lord Jesus teach that one moment of faith would guarantee eternal salvation? Speaking to His disciples as He was sending them out to preach the gospel and heal the sick, He warns them, “And ye shall be hated of all men for my name’s sake: BUT HE THAT ENDURETH TO THE END SHALL BE SAVED." (Matt. 10:22)
As time-bound creatures we are saved in a moment in time.
The events in Mat 10:22 took place while Jesus was still alive…….and so the disciples could only be saved after the death and resurrection of Jesus. That was why Jesus told them that those who endured persecution and remained faithful to Him up to the end of His life would be saved!!!!
Run to da hills
In John 8:31-32 we see Jesus speaking to some Jews that the Bible says had believed in Him. Jesus tells these believers, “if ye continue in my word, then are ye My disciples indeed; and ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.” Jesus tells these believers that THEY MUST CONTINUE in His word to come to know the truth and to be made free.
AGAIN, these events all took place while Jesus was still alive…….and so the disciples could only be saved after the death and resurrection of Jesus. That was why Jesus told them that those who continued to remain faithful to Him up to the end of His life would be saved!!!!
Run to da hills
In Luke 8:13 we see Jesus in the process of explaining the parable of the sower to His disciples. He makes the point to them that there are some people who “believe” for a while but in time of temptation or trial, they fall away.
Luke 8:13 states “They on the rock are they, which, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, which for a while believe, and in time of temptation fall away”
These are the unsaved people who claim to be Christians, who are full of outward show but who “have no root” …….because they haven’t believed on Jesus Christ to save them.
Run to da hills
Can this statement be any plainer from our Lord? Here we need to ask ourselves a question, can someone fall away from something if they had never been there in the first place?
……but the people in Lk 8:13 are not falling away from salvation…….they are falling away from the Word of God that they have superficially accepted.
Run to da hills
It doesn’t appear that Jesus believed that one moment of faith would guarantee eternal salvation as many teachers today believe and teaching.
ALL our sins are an equal affront to God......and they are forgiven through no merit on our part......
.........so WHY do you have such a problem with God's forgiveness of sin after we are saved?
As time-bound creatures we can only be saved in a moment in time....and IF we are saved ....then we ARE (logically) saved!!!
Joh 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.0 -
Not sure.
I certainly agree with you that the unsaved are under Gods Judgement however I believe Sin is Sin and to knowingly carry on a life of sinning after being clensed by the blood of Christ (Saved) will certainly be judged by the same scriptures. We have only one rule book and that is the Word of God where it states that "the wages of sin is death".Run to da hills
So in other words there is a different rule book for those who are "saved"
There certainly IS a different rule for the saved………they are saved by God’s Grace and ALL their sins are forgiven by God through NO merit on their part!!!
....while the unsaved continue under God's Judgement for their sins!!!
When I accepted Christ at first (Became born again), all my sins were forgiven, My present sins are forgiven when I aknowledge them in a confessional (not to an other man) directly to Jesus who is my mediator. It is an extremly dangerous thing to assume my future sins will be forgiven, or to carry out a sinful act as mentioned already and assume that "God will forgive me in the future, im saved anyway"Yes, all your past, present and future sins are forgiven when you are saved…….and ‘the unrighteous’ in 1 Cor 6:9-11 are the unsaved!!
Read the parable of the 10 virgins, a classic example showing how dangerous it is to be unprepared, How dangerous it is to not be right with god all the time.
"Then the kingdom of heaven shall be likened to ten virgins who took their lamps and went out to meet the bridegroom. Now five of them were wise, and five were foolish. Those who were foolish took their lamps and took no oil with them, but the wise took oil in their vessels with their lamps. But while the bridegroom was delayed, they all slumbered and slept. And at midnight a cry was heard: "Behold, the bridegroom is coming; go out to meet him!" Then all those virgins arose and trimmed their lamps. And the foolish said to the wise, "Give us some of your oil, for our lamps are going out." But the wise answered, saying, "No, lest there should not be enough for us and you; but go rather to those who sell, and buy for yourselves." And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came, and those who were ready went in with him to the wedding; and the door was shut. Afterwards the other virgins came also, saying, "Lord, Lord, open to us!" But he answered and said, "Assuredly, I say to you, I do not know you." Watch therefore, for you know neither the day nor the hour in which the Son of Man is coming".’ [Matthew 25.1-13 NKJV]
The five that had no oil were the ones that would have fallen back into the world and were not prepared, ie they were living in sin, ie caught out.
Im afraid, this is spiritual death! We all die a physical death! The wages of sin is death!.Quoting from James again, sin builds up and when full blown brings forth death.
Yes, sin can cause physical death!!!0 -
Those that believe "once saved always saved" is a false docterine.Originally Posted by J C
There certainly IS a different rule for the saved………they are saved by God’s Grace and ALL their sins are forgiven by God through NO merit on their part!!!
....while the unsaved continue under God's Judgement for their sins!!!
Run for da hills
I certainly agree with you that the unsaved are under Gods Judgement
……and I would also point out that the saved are under God’s Grace.....and they therfore are NOT under God's Judgement for ANY sins??
Run for da hills
I believe Sin is Sin and to knowingly carry on a life of sinning after being clensed by the blood of Christ (Saved) will certainly be judged by the same scriptures. We have only one rule book and that is the Word of God where it states that "the wages of sin is death".
Sin is sin ……. and it causes physical death…….which applies to both the saved and the unsaved.
………and being saved is the only means for the forgiveness of ALL sin!!!
As Rom 6:23 says “For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.”
Run for da hills
When I accepted Christ at first (Became born again), all my sins were forgiven, My present sins are forgiven when I aknowledge them in a confessional (not to an other man) directly to Jesus who is my mediator.
The saved should avoid sin and repent of it whenever possible….because they love God.......and NOT because their eternal destiny is at stake. Other reasons to avoid sin include the prevention of scandal to fellow Christians and the unsaved, the avoidance of the temporal punishment that it may trigger and because of the physical and psychological trauma (including accelerated disease and physical death) that it may cause the Backslider and their fellow man!!!
......BUT 'backsliding' will NOT 'unsave' somebody, who is already saved!!!!
Run for da hills
It is an extremly dangerous thing to assume my future sins will be forgiven, or to carry out a sinful act as mentioned already and assume that "God will forgive me in the future, im saved anyway"
A presumption that you can be saved later, would be dangerous all right.
One of the reasons why we can be confident that OSAS is valid is because there is no valid alternative.
The ONLY alternative proposition is that a person's eternal destiny is determined by their state of sin at the moment of death…..and because ANY sin cannot be tolerated by God, EVERYONE is either doomed under this proposition (because they will have SOME unrepented sin) or a concept like Purgatory will be required to purge these unrepented sins in order to save them.
There is NO ‘half-way house’ that is logically possible between the concepts of being PERMANENTLY saved at a particular point during your life or being saved by PURGING your unrepented sins after your death!!!!
The Bible makes NO reference to the possibility of purging your sins….and therefore OSAS is the ONLY biblically supported means of salvation!!!
Run for da hills
Read the parable of the 10 virgins, a classic example showing how dangerous it is to be unprepared, How dangerous it is to not be right with god all the time.
"Then the kingdom of heaven shall be likened to ten virgins who took their lamps and went out to meet the bridegroom. Now five of them were wise, and five were foolish. Those who were foolish took their lamps and took no oil with them, but the wise took oil in their vessels with their lamps. But while the bridegroom was delayed, they all slumbered and slept. And at midnight a cry was heard: "Behold, the bridegroom is coming; go out to meet him!" Then all those virgins arose and trimmed their lamps. And the foolish said to the wise, "Give us some of your oil, for our lamps are going out." But the wise answered, saying, "No, lest there should not be enough for us and you; but go rather to those who sell, and buy for yourselves." And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came, and those who were ready went in with him to the wedding; and the door was shut. Afterwards the other virgins came also, saying, "Lord, Lord, open to us!" But he answered and said, "Assuredly, I say to you, I do not know you." Watch therefore, for you know neither the day nor the hour in which the Son of Man is coming".’ [Matthew 25.1-13 NKJV].
The five that had no oil were the ones that would have fallen back into the world and were not prepared, ie they were living in sin, ie caught out.
I agree that it is very dangerous to not always be prepared for death and not 'to be right with God'.......so HOW do we become 'right with God'?
We become 'right with God' by being saved .......by believing on Jesus Christ....who died ONCE to atone for ALL sin......
......and similarly, when a person is saved there is a ONCE-OFF forgiveness of ALL of their sins.
You are NOT saved and saved again and saved again and again and again......you are saved once and forever!!!
The parable cautions us against not being ready whenever God calls us……..because we have put off being saved.
There is no evidence from the parable that the wise virgins were any more virtuous or less sinful then the foolish virgins…….they were ALL virgins ….and they ALL slumbered and slept, while they waited for the bridegroom.
The ONLY difference between the two groups was that the wise virgins were prepared for the wedding when the bridegroom arrived……and the reason the other virgins were foolish was because they had no oil in their lamps……and they missed the wedding feast because they had gone off to get oil at the very time the bridegroom arrived.
Similarly the unsaved may not get the opportunity to be saved, if they don’t get saved while they can “for you know neither the day nor the hour in which the Son of Man is coming”.
So the message is that the unsaved should ‘fill their lamps’ and get saved today!!
Run for da hills
Im afraid, this is spiritual death! We all die a physical death! The wages of sin is death!.
We all die physically, because our physical bodies retain their sinful state, even after we are saved…..and that is why our salvation hasn’t conquered physical death!!!
Salvation has FULLY conquered spiritual death for the saved…..and that is why salvation is spiritual and eternal ….and OSAS is valid!!!0 -
Not sure.
I agree all my sins are forgiven up to the point of being savedOriginally Posted by J C
There certainly IS a different rule for the saved………they are saved by God’s Grace and ALL their sins are forgiven by God through NO merit on their part!!!
by grace however after being saved It is up to me to chose to live for Christ for the rest of my live. If I backslide unchecked to such an extent I will no longer be living my life for Christ as a Christian but will be living my life for myself and will loose it in the next. "For whosoever will save his life shall lose it; but whosoever shall lose his life for my sake and the gospel's, the same shall save it" Mark 8:35 Being saved dose not mean it is all over, that you can
sit back and relax for the rest of your days.
Of course the saved are under Gods Judgment for any sins that they knowingly commit without repenting, this is like spitting in the face of Christ. In fact a saved person can fall back in sin to such an extent that he even forgets the fact that he was saved in the first case. “Let us (believers) labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief”—Heb. 4:11.and I would also point out that the saved are under God’s Grace.....and they therefore are NOT under God's Judgment for ANY sins??
It is possible for saved people to backslide and fall from grace. “For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift (saved) and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost (sanctified), And have tasted the good word of God (obedient disciples) and the powers of the world to come (the supernatural), If they shall fall away (apostatize or fall from grace) to renew them again to repentance, seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame”—Heb. 6:4–6.
This teaches the possibility that one saved and sanctified, can fall from grace. It does not teach, however, that if one is saved and sanctified, and backslides, falls from grace, he cannot be saved again. It is clear that when one falls, or apostatizes, there is the danger his heart will become so hard he will not repent, or to renew him to repentance. (As it was my case for 20 years) Jesus says, “I tell you nay, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish”—Luke 13:3. There is no salvation short of repentance. If one comes repenting he can be saved. If his heart is so hard he will not repent, there is no possibility of salvation.
The Bible says, “The soul that sinneth it shall die”—Ezek. 18:4. Man loses spiritual life by sinning which means dying. When a man sins, or dies spiritually he will be blotted out of the book of life. “And the Lord said unto Moses, whosoever hath sinned against me, him will I blot out of my book”—Exodus 32:33. “Behold therefore the goodness and the severity of God: on them which fell severity, but toward thee goodness; if thou continue in his goodness; otherwise thou shall also be cut off”—Rom. 11:22.As Rom 6:23 says “For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.”
This makes it clear that it is possible for the soul to sin after being born again, converted, and saved. It also teaches that it is possible for a believer in Christ to fall from grace, be cut off, and lost forever.
When one disobeys God, he will be blotted from, or have his part, or name taken out of the book of life (Rev. 22:18–19). God’s work makes it clear that “whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire”—Rev. 20:15.
Run for da hills
When I accepted Christ at first (Became born again), all my sins were forgiven, My present sins are forgiven when I acknowledge them in a confessional (not to an other man) directly to Jesus who is my mediator.
I agree with you that if one loved God with all their heart they should not knowingly sin, it spits in the face of Christ, and will also send your soul to hell if left unchecked.The saved should avoid sin and repent of it whenever possible….because they love God and NOT because their eternal destiny is at stake. Other reasons to avoid sin include the prevention of scandal to fellow Christians and the unsaved, the avoidance of the temporal punishment that it may trigger and because of the physical and psychological trauma (including accelerated disease and physical death) that it may cause the Backslider and their fellow man!!!
......BUT 'backsliding' will NOT 'unsave' somebody, who is already saved!!!!
[/QUOTE]
A presumption that you can be saved later, would be dangerous all right.You have admitted that this would be dangerous, in fact it is detrimental and is putting God to the test. One of the greatest tricks of Satan is to "put it off", i.e Ask god for forgiveness in time to come, ie. "I know that I can get away with this, Ill ask God for forgiveness LATER ON MAY NEVER COME, ie "But God said unto him, Thou fool, this night thy soul shall be required of thee: then whose shall those things be, which thou hast provided?".
There is a valid alternative, HELL!, A true Christian will follow Christ, they will know his voice (My sheep hear my voice John 10:27) and abide in him like the parable of the vine, they understand Christ by reading his word, fellowshipping with other Christians. They know they are following Christ and feel his love.One of the reasons why we can be confident that OSAS is valid is because there is no valid alternative.
The ONLY alternative proposition is that a person's eternal destiny is determined by their state of sin at the moment of death…..and because ANY sin cannot be tolerated by God, EVERYONE is either doomed under this proposition (because they will have SOME unrepented sin) or a concept like Purgatory will be required to purge these unrepented sins in order to save them.
On the other hand the Backslider no longer feels this relationship with Christ that he first felt, his heart is hardened towards God, He no longer fellowships, attends Church or reads the word, he no longer feels guilty when he sins and in fact he often has pleasure doing these things, and perhaps the most importantly he has absolutly no interest in God's Plan to Bring Lost Sinners to Christ for Salvation . This is a classic case of the withered vine branch that is cut off and thrown into the fire to be burnt.
God will never forget or forsake this person and will always forgive him no matter how far back he has fallen as long as he lives (Prodigal Son). God forbid, that person if he dies in his sin in that state. Purgatory is a dirty lie of the Devil and dose not exist. There is not one mention in the Word of God about a place called Purgatory!0 -
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Not sure.RTDH, good post and nice quotes showing that salvation can be lost. Pity about you statements on Purgatory. There are two consequences of sin: guilt and temporal punishment. When God forgives, He forgives the guilt and without this forgiveness we would suffer eternal punishment. Suffering in this life and Purgatory is temporal punishment. We must be purged of all stain of sin and attachments to sin before we can enter Heaven. See http://www.scripturecatholic.com/purgatory.html and http://www.rosary-center.org/ll48n6.htm
God bless,
Noel.0 -
Not sure.
Purgatory is just as dangerous a docterine as OSAS, Believers in the Christ of Scripture have no fear of Purgatory. "For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ, Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him".1 Thessalonians 5:9-10.RTDH, good post and nice quotes showing that salvation can be lost. Pity about you statements on Purgatory. There are two consequences of sin: guilt and temporal punishment. When God forgives, He forgives the guilt and without this forgiveness we would suffer eternal punishment. Suffering in this life and Purgatory is temporal punishment. We must be purged of all stain of sin and attachments to sin before we can enter Heaven. See http://www.scripturecatholic.com/purgatory.html and http://www.rosary-center.org/ll48n6.htm
God bless,
Noel.
Should God choose to chastise his unruly children, it will be in this lifetime, for at death we go to our eternal home (Ecc. 12:5). Christians cannot accept the concept of Purgatory, Although the offering of indulgences is perhaps no longer a major source of of income, it still serves the purpose of creating and maintaining dependency on the Catholic church to ease the consequences of sin. This is just as dangerous as OSAS. THERE IS ONLY ONE CONSEQUENCE OF SIN AND THAT IS DEATH!. "The wages of sin is death"!, (Spiritual death and eternal seperation from God). but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord." ( Romans 6:23 KJV)
Purgatory defeats the whole purpose of Christ dying on the cross. All of mankind’s sins have been paid for by Christ at the Hill of Cavalry in Jerusalem. This is where Jesus hung on a cross and paid the great price. Jesus paid for the sins of the vilest wretched sinner and all that sinner needs to do to be saved is to admit their sin and turn to Christ in faith for the forgiveness of their sins, believing that Christ and Christ alone can save.0 -
Not sure.
How is it dangerous? We need to be purified from actual sin and attachment to sin before we are fit to enter Heaven.Run_to_da_hills wrote: »Purgatory is just as dangerous a docterine as OSAS
Is this a biblical quote? My bible is nothing like that.Run_to_da_hills wrote: »Should God choose to chastise his unruly children, it will be in this lifetime, for at death we go to our eternal home (Ecc. 12:5).
Not at all. Christ's passion and death won for us forgiveness of the guilt of sin and won for us God's grace. That's not to say that we won't be punished. If it's not in this life, it will be in the next.Run_to_da_hills wrote: »Purgatory defeats the whole purpose of Christ dying on the cross.Matthew 5:26. Amen I say to thee, thou shalt not go out from thence [the prison] till thou repay the last farthing.
From an apologetics site:When someone repents, God removes his guilt (Is. 1:18) and any eternal punishment (Rom. 5:9), but temporal penalties may remain. One passage demonstrating this is 2 Samuel 12, in which Nathan the prophet confronts David over his adultery:
"Then David said to Nathan, ‘I have sinned against the Lord.’ Nathan answered David: ‘The Lord on his part has forgiven your sin; you shall not die. But since you have utterly spurned the Lord by this deed, the child born to you must surely die’" (2 Sam. 12:13-14). God forgave David but David still had to suffer the loss of his son as well as other temporal punishments (2 Sam. 12:7-12). (For other examples, see: Numbers 14:13-23; 20:12; 27:12-14.)
I don't wish to digress from the topic under discussion so I'll leave it as that.
God bless,
Noel.0 -
Not sure.
As the OP of this thread I would agree with you that the subject of Purgatory is straying away from the subject of OSAS being a false docterine. However I believe both subjects are very much related. Satan will do anything in his power to make little of sin and will do anything to get people to die in it without repentance by his dirty lies, either by his "get out of Jail free" scam called purgatory, or other dirty tricks such as OSAS. The Bible clearly states, "The soul that sinneth, it shall die", Ezekiel 18:20 and again, "the wages of sin is death". Only jesus has the power to forgive and forget our sin in this life and definitally not in the next.How is it dangerous? We need to be purified from actual sin and attachment to sin before we are fit to enter Heaven.
Is this a biblical quote? My bible is nothing like that.
Not at all. Christ's passion and death won for us forgiveness of the guilt of sin and won for us God's grace. That's not to say that we won't be punished. If it's not in this life, it will be in the next.
From an apologetics site:
I don't wish to digress from the topic under discussion so I'll leave it as that.
God bless,
Noel.
Jesus forgives and forgets sin to those that repent and ask him for forgiveness now.
"come now, and let us reason together, saith the LORD: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool".(Isaiah 1vs 18).
"I, am he that blotteth out thy transgressions for mine own sake, and will not remember thy sins". (Isaiah 43:25).
Our lord dose not want anyone to be danmed even the most vilest of sinners, but all to come to repentance, this would include the unsaved and the saved that have fallen back into sin.
"The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance" (2 Peter 3vs9)0 -
Those that believe "once saved always saved" is a false docterine.Run to da hills
I agree all my sins are forgiven up to the point of being saved
by grace however after being saved It is up to me to chose to live for Christ for the rest of my live. If I backslide unchecked to such an extent I will no longer be living my life for Christ as a Christian but will be living my life for myself and will loose it in the next.
How MANY sins constitutes backsliding “unchecked to such an extent I will no longer be living my life for Christ as a Christian but will be living my life for myself and will loose it in the next.”???
You seem to be implying that a few so-called ‘minor sins’ won’t affect your salvation…….but you will lose it with ‘more sins’ or ‘big sins’!!!!
ALL sin is an affront to God…….BUT Jesus Christ has atoned for ALL sin ……and ALL we have to do to be saved is to believe on Jesus Christ !!!
Run to da hills
"For whosoever will save his life shall lose it; but whosoever shall lose his life for my sake and the gospel's, the same shall save it" Mark 8:35 Being saved dose not mean it is all over, that you can
sit back and relax for the rest of your days.
ALL saved Christian can relax about their salvation…..
…….but they cannot relax about their faith or their physical life…….because their faith drives them to witness for Jesus Christ to the unsaved……and many Christians have lost their physical lives for doing so!!!
Run to da hills
It is possible for saved people to backslide and fall from grace. “For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift (saved) and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost (sanctified), And have tasted the good word of God (obedient disciples) and the powers of the world to come (the supernatural), If they shall fall away (apostatize or fall from grace) to renew them again to repentance, seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame”—Heb. 6:4–6.
This teaches the possibility that one saved and sanctified, can fall from grace. It does not teach, however, that if one is saved and sanctified, and backslides, falls from grace, he cannot be saved again.
The above verses indicate that the saved who sin CANNOT be renewed through repentance…..BECAUSE they are already saved…..and Heb 6:9-11 indicates that they are STILL saved with full assurance of hope.
“ But, beloved, we are persuaded better things of you, and things that accompany salvation, though we thus speak.
For God is not unrighteous to forget your work and labour of love, which ye have shewed toward his name, in that ye have ministered to the saints, and do minister.
And we desire that every one of you do shew the same diligence to the full assurance of hope unto the end:”
…..and Heb 6:18-20 confirms that the hope (or belief) of the saved in their eternal destiny when they die, is guaranteed by Jesus Christ:-
“That by two immutable things, in which it was impossible for God to lie, we might have a strong consolation, who have fled for refuge to lay hold upon the hope set before us:
Which hope we have as an anchor of the soul, both sure and stedfast, and which entereth into that within the veil;
Whither the forerunner is for us entered, even Jesus, made an high priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec.”
Run for da hills
It is clear that when one falls, or apostatizes, there is the danger his heart will become so hard he will not repent, or to renew him to repentance. (As it was my case for 20 years) Jesus says, “I tell you nay, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish”—Luke 13:3. There is no salvation short of repentance. If one comes repenting he can be saved. If his heart is so hard he will not repent, there is no possibility of salvation.
Luke 13:3 is addressed to the UNSAVED…….who must repent and believe on Him in order to be saved!!!
Run for da hills
The Bible says, “The soul that sinneth it shall die”—Ezek. 18:4. Man loses spiritual life by sinning which means dying.
Ezek 18:4 refers to the punishment of physical death upon the soul (or person) who sins.
Please bear in mind that this was Old Testament times when the punishment under law for many sins was (physical) death……and nobody was saved at the time, because Jesus had not yet come on Earth….so the ONLY possible interpretation of this verse is that the person who sins shall physically die.
Run for da hills
“Behold therefore the goodness and the severity of God: on them which fell severity, but toward thee goodness; if thou continue in his goodness; otherwise thou shall also be cut off”—Rom. 11:22.
This makes it clear that it is possible for the soul to sin after being born again, converted, and saved. It also teaches that it is possible for a believer in Christ to fall from grace, be cut off, and lost forever.
Paul was referring to the unsaved members of the Gentile NATIONS being cut off here……and NOT the individually saved members of these nations ……..who were already saved ….. and therefore guaranteed to continue in their salvation.
Run for da hills
When one disobeys God, he will be blotted from, or have his part, or name taken out of the book of life (Rev. 22:18–19). God’s work makes it clear that “whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire”—Rev. 20:15.
The punishment for adding to or taking from the words of prophecy in Revelation is eternal perdition under God’s Judgement……but such judgement doesn’t apply to saved people……who are under God’s grace.
The people “not found written in the book of life” are the unsaved.
Run to da hills
Jesus paid for the sins of the vilest wretched sinner and all that sinner needs to do to be saved is to admit their sin and turn to Christ in faith for the forgiveness of their sins, believing that Christ and Christ alone can save.
….and if you do this you are saved ……once and for all!!!
Have a look here for further elaboration of my point:-
http://www.allaboutgod.com/once-saved-always-saved.htm
Run to da hills
God will never forget or forsake this person (a saved sinner) and will always forgive him no matter how far back he has fallen as long as he lives (Prodigal Son). God forbid, that person if he dies in his sin in that state.
Either God forgives the saved sinner or He doesn’t!!!
Could I point out that EVERY saved person will die as a sinner…….who has sinned AFTER being saved…….
…….so either salvation blots out ALL sin (the OSAS position) …… or something like Purgatory IS required to save ANYBODY!!!!
Kelly1 is consistent in his belief in salvation through works…..which involve virtue and confession in this life and purgatory in the next.
This belief in Purgatory isn’t supported Biblically …… but it is a consistent position for somebody who believes in salvation through works.
Your position, however, is some kind of hybrid between salvation by faith AND works.
You seem to believe that somebody is saved through faith alright ……but then you seem to think that they ‘run the gauntlet’ of sin and repeated repentance (which is a form of ‘works’) for the rest of their lives …….and as everyone will die with some un-repented sin, all would appear to be doomed under your scenario…..unless you adopt Kelly’s mechanism for the purging of un-repented sin after death……which is some kind of ‘Purgatory’!!!
The logically consistent position for somebody who believes in salvation through faith alone is OSAS....and denial of 'eternal security' is an acceptance of salvation through (at least some) 'works'!!!0 -
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Not sure.
We seem to be going around in circles over this. Backsliding is a gradual process, It starts off with minor sins and disobedience, submitting to Satan more and more as he takes control over your mind. When he has complete control of your mind you no longer live for Christ but lives for him and then suffers the consequences by losing your salvation.You seem to be implying that a few so-called ‘minor sins’ won’t affect your salvation…….but you will lose it with ‘more sins’ or ‘big sins’!!!!.
I agree with you that you MUST be saved, Its up to the person to chose to remain saved and not fall back after that.ALL sin is an affront to God…….BUT Jesus Christ has atoned for ALL sin ……and ALL we have to do to be saved is to believe on Jesus Christ.
I never heard such rubbish, If anything the Christian should be ON EDGE, AWAKE, SOBER, and definitely NOT relaxed!, Again Read 1 Peter 5vs8 to "Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour" This includes ANYBODY, saved and unsaved. We all have that appointment with death and lose our "physical lives" at ANY TIME (Hebrews 9:27) It is up to us to be AWAKE with God at all times and not fall back into sin least we be caught out.ALL saved Christian can relax about their salvation…..
…….but they cannot relax about their faith or their physical life…….because their faith drives them to witness for Jesus Christ to the unsaved……and many Christians have lost their physical lives for doing so!!!
It is true, a person cannot be saved "again and again", once saved our lord NEVER FORGETS that person and will always take him back again only when he confesses, 1john1vs9.The above verses indicate that the saved who sin CANNOT be renewed through repentance…..BECAUSE they are already saved…..but Heb 6:9-11 indicates that they are STILL saved with full assurance of hope..
Luke 13:3 is addressing both the unsaved and the backslider because both of them will suffer the consequences and die in their sin."except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish” Luke 13:3
There is no salvation short of repentance. If one comes repenting he can be saved. If his heart is so hard he will not repent, there is no possibility of salvation. [/B]
Luke 13:3 is addressed to the UNSAVED…….who must repent and believe on Him in order to be saved!!! ..
. It refers to SPIRITUAL death, we all die a physical death.Ezek 18:4 "the soul that sinneth, it shall die" refers to the punishment of physical death upon the soul (or person) who sins.[/B]..
Of course it dose, so you are implying that any saved Tom Dick and Harry can go around and butcher the word of god and get away with it, this is the exact reason that there are hundreds of corrupted and perverted versions of the Bible in existent to-day. Any one saved or unsaved will be made accountable for interfering with the Word of God and will suffer the consequences.The punishment for adding to or taking from the words of prophecy in Revelation is eternal perdition under God’s Judgement……but such judgement doesn’t apply to saved people……who are under God’s grace...
I agree 100% on this one.The people “not found written in the book of life” are the unsaved.
That’s what Satan would like to lead you to believe,.....and if you do this you are saved ……once and for all!!!.
As I already stated, Purgatory is a dirty lie of the Devil, just like OSAS, You are SAVED ONCE, it is up to you to endure your relationship with Christ to the very end after that.
Either God forgives the saved sinner or He doesn’t!!! Could I point out that EVERY saved person will die as a sinner…….who has sinned AFTER being saved…….so either salvation blots out ALL sin (the OSAS position) …… or something like Purgatory IS required to save ANYBODY!!!! .
http://www.bebaptized.org/Oncesaved.htm
http://www.geocities.com/1christlover/OSAS-1Tim-James.html
Kelly1's beliefs is based on salvation through the traditions of the Roman Catholic Church which involves works.Kelly1 is consistent in his belief in salvation through works…..which involve virtue and confession in this life and purgatory in the next.
This belief in Purgatory isn’t supported Biblically …… but it is a consistent position for somebody who believes in salvation through works.
Your position, however, is some kind of hybrid between salvation by faith AND works. .
I believe I am saved through faith in Jesus Christ alone and what he did by dying on the cross to saved my soul. However it is not all over. Sin which seperates me from Christ will always be apart of my life right to the day I die and it is up to me to keep check of it, (If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us, If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 1 John 1vs8/9 ) It is up to me to endure to the end and not fall away.
From what I gather you are implying that a person once saved need not keep check of his sins as he goes through life once he is saved because it is a "form of works" and he can sit back and relax because he will not lose his salvation.0 -
Not sure.JC and RTDH, could I be very cheeky and ask why the two of you can't agree on wheter OSAS is true? Could it be you aren't qualified to interpret scripture for yourselves in the same way that I'm not qualified? I dare suggest that you're missing half of the picture i.e. Sacred Tradition. There, I've said it now
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Not sure.
What the two of us can agree on is that we are both saved, ie we are both Born Again believers and have both accepted Christ as our saviour.JC and RTDH, could I be very cheeky and ask why the two of you can't agree on wheter OSAS is true? Could it be you aren't qualified to interpret scripture for yourselves in the same way that I'm not qualified? I dare suggest that you're missing half of the picture i.e. Sacred Tradition. There, I've said it now
What we cannot agree on is that if we fall away or neglect our faith, ie backslide. I believe that I will be made accountible for this and will suffer the concequences while JC believes that this will make no difference to his initial calling. Either way of this dispute between OSAS being true or false, If we both endure to the end we have no worries of losing our salvation.0 -
Run_to_da_hills wrote: »What the two of us can agree on is that we are both saved, ie we are both Born Again believers and have accepted Christ as our saviour.
What we cannot agree on is that if we fall away or neglect our faith, ie backslide. I believe that I will be made accountible for this and will suffer the concequences while JC believes that this will make no difference to his initial calling. Either way of this dispute between OSAS being true or false, If we both endure to the end we have no worries of losing our salvation.
Well said.
Not a doctrine to divide on.0 -
Not sure.
Agreed, you're playing safe so to speak. JC would seem to think that somehow Christ will save him from himself as though his free will were taken away (sorry if I have this wrong). Unfortunately OSAS isn't true and leads to laxity and a false sense of security worthy of a deceipt of the devil.Run_to_da_hills wrote: »Either way of this dispute between OSAS being true or false, If we both endure to the end we have no worries of losing our salvation.
God bless,
Noel.0 -
Not sure.
But the truth of the matter does is important to know, is it not? Don't you see the danger of OSAS? Salvation can be lost without realizing it etc. It's a Calvinist invention isn't it? Call me a hair splitter, but I think it really does matter when you're dealing with the salvation of souls.BrianCalgary wrote: »Well said.
Not a doctrine to divide on.
God bless,
Noel.0 -
I really don't think so.
You can say: OSAS then be lazy and don't worry.
On the reverse no OSAS live in fear and be legalistic.
On the first the Christian understands that they have a responsibilty to follow the leading of the Holy Spirit and to follow Christs teachings, which include but are not limited to: helping the poor and preaching the gospel.
On the second it is the same, don't worry about works and legalism just follow the Holy Spirit and obey Christs teachings.
Either way a true Christian will be recognized by the fruits of love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control.0 -
Those that believe "once saved always saved" is a false docterine.Run to da hills
We seem to be going around in circles over this. Backsliding is a gradual process, It starts off with minor sins and disobedience, submitting to Satan more and more as he takes control over your mind. When he has complete control of your mind you no longer live for Christ but lives for him and then suffers the consequences by losing your salvation.
IF a person is saved, Satan can have no hold on him/her……because he/she is indwelt by the Holy Spirit.
The situation you are describing isn’t ‘backsliding’ but that of an unsaved person ‘sliding’ deeper into sin.....and Satan's clutches!!!!
Run to da hills
the Christian should be ON EDGE, AWAKE, SOBER, and definitely NOT relaxed!, Again Read 1 Peter 5vs8 to "Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour" This includes ANYBODY, saved and unsaved.
The devils devouring DOESN’T include everybody (i.e. the saved and the unsaved).
The devil is the adversary of the saved (and Jesus Christ) for the eternal lives of the unsaved.
Satan can ONLY devour the unsaved…….and it is the duty of the saved to remain ‘awake and sober’ like a lifeguard to try and help save the lost from Satan’s clutches!!!!
Run to da hills
We all have that appointment with death and lose our "physical lives" at ANY TIME (Hebrews 9:27) It is up to us to be AWAKE with God at all times and not fall back into sin least we be caught out.
…..there you go again, with a (partially) ‘works based’ salvation!!!!
EVERYBODY is in a state of sin AT ALL TIMES…….so HOW are you going to be saved IF you are going to be judged on your sinful state when you die?
The people who hold to a full ‘works based’ salvation ALSO recognise that EVERYONE will have unrepented sins when they die……and they have introduced the concept of Purgatory to purge these sins.
The people who hold to a full ‘faith based’ salvation believe that ALL sins are forgiven at the moment a person is saved (including all future unrepented sins).
Your position however, means that we would NEITHER have the assurance of ‘eternal security’ through faith NOR the ability to purge unrepented sin through works……
…….it is.the ‘worst of both possible worlds’ so to speak……and effectively denies the possibility of salvation by EITHER ‘works’ OR ‘faith’!!!!:)
Run to da hills
It is true, a person cannot be saved "again and again", once saved our lord NEVER FORGETS that person and will always take him back again only when he confesses, 1john1vs9.
Of course, the Christian strives to avoid sin…..and confesses and repents of any sin that they may be aware that they have committed…..and anyone who denies they are a sinner is a liar…….
……..BUT a person’s salvation does NOT depend on repenting of EVERY sin ……because the saved are under God’s Grace ……. they are NOT under His Judgement………which would condemn them for their sins…..IF they weren’t saved!!!
Run to da hills
Luke 13:3 (except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish) is addressing both the unsaved and the backslider because both of them will suffer the consequences and die in their sin.
Luke 13:3 was addressed to the unsaved.
To be saved you MUST repent and believe on Jesus Christ to forgive all of your sin.
Once you are saved you SHOULD repent of sin to avoid further temporal punishment for it and to avoid scandal and because you love God and are sorry for the affront that you have caused to Him and your fellow man!!!
Run to da hills
Of course it dose, so you are implying that any saved Tom Dick and Harry can go around and butcher the word of god and get away with it, this is the exact reason that there are hundreds of corrupted and perverted versions of the Bible in existent to-day. Any one saved or unsaved will be made accountable for interfering with the Word of God and will suffer the consequences.
Any saved Tom, Dick or Harry WON’T ‘mess’ with the Word of God………because they are indwelt by God’s Holy Spirit they respect it's veracity!!
………but they WILL ‘get away with’ sin……after all, that IS what being saved is all about!!!!
Fact:- Jesus Christ came to save SINNERS!!!
Fact:- We are undeserving of salvation!!!
Fact:- We are saved as sinners through no merit on our part!!
Run to da hills
It is up to me to endure to the end and not fall away.
You make it sound like an endurance test or a marathon!!!:)
Salvation is a loving relationship between God and Man…….and NOT a loveless marathon marriage of convenience and endurance!!!
…….and your salvation is not ‘up to you’…….but an UNMERITED free gift from God …..
Run to da hills
From what I gather you are implying that a person once saved need not keep check of his sins as he goes through life once he is saved because it is a "form of works" and he can sit back and relax because he will not lose his salvation.
Of course, a Christian will ‘reign in’ his sinful inclinations…….for the love of God and his fellow man……but NOT because he will lose his (already assured) salvation!!!!!!
Kelly1
JC and RTDH, could I be very cheeky and ask why the two of you can't agree on wheter OSAS is true? Could it be you aren't qualified to interpret scripture for yourselves in the same way that I'm not qualified? I dare suggest that you're missing half of the picture i.e. Sacred Tradition.
You could be very cheeky......and I will be equally cheeky, and ask you :-
Where does the Bible refer to ‘Sacred Tradition’ as a means of salvation?
……and BTW, a Christian indwelt by the Holy Spirit, IS fully qualified to interpret Holy Scripture……you cannot get a better teacher than God Himself, after all!!!:)
Run to da hills
What the two of us can agree on is that we are both saved, ie we are both Born Again believers and have both accepted Christ as our saviour.
What we cannot agree on is that if we fall away or neglect our faith, ie backslide. I believe that I will be made accountible for this and will suffer the concequences while JC believes that this will make no difference to his initial calling. Either way of this dispute between OSAS being true or false, If we both endure to the end we have no worries of losing our salvation.
A fair and reasonable summary……….only I won’t be merely ‘enduring’ to the end ……I will be joyously proclaiming the reality of God’s saving grace and my assured salvation to all who will listen!!!!
…….and thanking God for having saved a wretch like me DESPITE my sinful condition!!!!
I often think that some Christians make Christianity (and the avoidance of sin) look like a terrible sacrifice……when the reality is that it is a great source of joy and consolation.
The fact that the Sovereign God of the Universe loved ME personally so much that He died on the cross to set aside ALL MY SINS never ceases to amaze me!!!
…….and if anybody thinks that avoiding sin is drudgery…….just think of what your life could be like if you embrace sin…….
……you could be forever looking over your shoulder for a policeman to arrest you for theft or awaiting the moment when a jealous husband will wreak vengeance on you for committing adultery with his wife or end up dreading when she will turn up at your door claiming that you are the father of her child!!!!!
Equally you could be enslaved by work without rest 24/7 or be apprehensively awaiting somebody ‘settling scores’ with you for your last violent attack on him!!!
Sin could also see you in a doctor’s surgery awaiting the prognosis for any number of life-threatening or incurable illnesses caused by your sexual incontinence or you could be awaiting arraignment before the courts for debts that you incurred through sinful greed.
…..or you could just end up being a lonely old person abandoned by everyone who might have loved you, because you had been so sinfully selfish…..that you have become a parody of your hatred for both God and man!!!
The wages of sin IS a nightmare of death and disease…….and the only known antidote to sin is God’s free gift of salvation……..which is eternal !!!
It’s a ‘no brainer’ to choose salvation over sin!!!!!
Salvation is where Man’s free will to love and God’s sovereign ability to save MEET!!!
……and let there be not doubt about God’s ability AND willingness to save ALL who believe on Him!!!
I love you all!!!:)0 -
Mmm...popcorn.
diverted,
Scofflaw0 -
Yeah, you're right. I believe that every other religion is full of grumpy, evil, non-believers as well. I completely agree with you. Christianity is the only way in to the kingdom of heaven.BrianCalgary wrote: »Either way a true Christian will be recognized by the fruits of love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control.0 -
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Not sure.IF a person is saved, Satan can have no hold on him/her……because he/she is indwelt by the Holy Spirit.
The situation you are describing isn’t ‘backsliding’ but that of an unsaved person ‘sliding’ deeper into sin.....and Satan's clutches!!
The unsaved CANNOT BACKSLIDE deeper into sin and the Satans clutches, they are CONDEMED already! They never came to the truth in the first place so how can they backslide?.
"He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God". John 3:18
The Devil is the adversary end of story, to the saved and unsaved and is quite capable of manipulating the minds of the saved, we are WARNED as in Ephesians to protect ourselves from his tactics.The devils devouring DOESN’T include everybody (i.e. the saved and the unsaved).
The devil is the adversary of the saved (and Jesus Christ) for the eternal lives of the unsaved.
Satan can ONLY devour the unsaved…….and it is the duty of the saved to remain ‘awake and sober’ like a lifeguard to try and help save the lost from Satan’s clutches!!!!!!
"Put on the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil, for we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high, wherefore take unto you the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand" Ephesians 6vs12.The people who hold to a full ‘works based’ salvation ALSO recognise that EVERYONE will have unrepeated sins when they die……and they have introduced the concept of Purgatory to purge these sins. The people who hold to a full ‘faith based’ salvation believe that ALL sins are forgiven at the moment a person is saved (including all future unrepeated sins). Your position however, means that we would NEITHER have the assurance of ‘eternal security’ through faith NOR the ability to purge un repented sin through works!! it is. the ‘worst of both possible worlds’ so to speak……and effectively denies the possibility of salvation by EITHER ‘works’ OR ‘faith’!
When someone is initially "saved" by grace it is by faith alone in Jesus Christ and not by any works. "For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast." Ephesians 2:8-9 KJV
However Gods plan to the saved in fact dose involve "works" such as preaching the Gospel to the unsaved and helping the needy. "What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?" James 2:14 This verse is telling us that when you have faith in God it will be seen in your works. See Ephesians 2:8-10. It does not say or imply that your good works produce salvation.
The people who hold full based salvation have this illusion that they have a "blank cheque" written from God and can go around for the rest of their lives believing they are immune from their dirty sinful carnal habits. On the other hand I believe all my future sins are forgiven only if I confess them and remain living the rest of my life in accordance to Gods plan.
All sin is of the Devil to both to the saved or unsaved and will be punished even more so for the "saved" that has sinned after his initial calling because he knows well that he is transgressing against God.Of course, the Christian strives to avoid sin…..and confesses and repents of any sin that they may be aware that they have committed…..and anyone who denies they are a sinner is a liar…….
……..BUT a person’s salvation does NOT depend on repenting of EVERY sin ……because the saved are under God’s Grace ……. they are NOT under His Judgement………which would condemn them for their sins…..IF they weren’t saved!!!!
Are you are talking of a non existent "temporal punishment"? Do I smell purgatory??Luke 13:3 was addressed to the unsaved.
To be saved you MUST repent and believe on Jesus Christ to forgive all of your sin.
Once you are saved you SHOULD repent of sin to avoid further temporal punishment for it and to avoid scandal and because you love God and are sorry for the affront that you have caused to Him and your fellow man.
You have obviously never read 1 Corinthians 9It is up to me to endure to the end and not fall away.
You make it sound like an endurance test or a marathon!!!
Salvation is a loving relationship between God and Man…….and NOT a loveless marathon marriage of convenience and endurance!!!.
"Do you not know that in a race all the runners run, but only one gets the prize? Run in such a way as to get the prize.
"Everyone who competes in the games goes into strict training. They do it to get a crown that will not last; but we do it to get a crown that will last forever. Therefore I do not run like a man running aimlessly; I do not fight like a man beating the air. No, I beat my body and make it my slave so that after I have preached to others, I myself will not be disqualified for the prize".
Your salvation is up to you, If do not continue to walk in Gods plan after you are initially saved you will suffer the consequences."And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth" Matthew 25vs30and your salvation is not ‘up to you’…….but an UNMERITED free gift from God
Again but this time KJV. "Know ye not that they which run in a race run all, but one receiveth the prize? So run, that ye may obtain. And every man that striveth for the mastery is temperate in all things. Now they do it to obtain a corruptible crown; but we an incorruptible. I therefore so run, not as uncertainly; so fight I, not as one that beateth the air", 1 Corintians9A fair and reasonable summary……….only I won’t be merely ‘enduring’ to the end ……I will be joyously proclaiming the reality of God’s saving grace and my assured salvation to all who will listen!!!!
And But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.Matthew 24 vs13.
The wages of Sin is Death, end of story, to both the saved and unsaved. The only known antidote to sin is REPENTANCE to and pleading to God for forgiveness each time you are convicted of it.The wages of sin IS a nightmare of death and disease…….and the only known antidote to sin is God’s free gift of salvation……..which is eternal !!! .0 -
Run_to_da_hills wrote: »The comment from PDN in previous thread reminded me of a docterine I believe is false, ie once saved always saved. (OSAS) I believe a Christian can loose their salvation if they delibertly engages in sinful activity and refuse to repent and if he dies in his sin he is worse off than someone who has never known Christ in the first place. IE. "And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth".(Matthew 25:30) However I believe no matter how bad a person has fallen away our lord will always accept a repentant sinner.
I believe that if someone continues to engage in a sinful activity and feels no remorse or sorrow for it, if they use the Gospel to hide behind to make themselves LOOK like they are a struggling Christian as so many of us are...then they probably were never a True Believer to begin with. I do believe that if you are truly repentant and active Christian that no matter how hard it is to fight your sin - you will do so - sooner or later and you will be truly sorrowful for your sins. But once you have been convicted of your sins and are truly repentant you are saved - no matter how many times you sin afterwards. There must be a posture of sincere repentance that is practiced though.0 -
Those that believe "once saved always saved" is a false docterine.Originally Posted by J C
The situation you are describing isn’t ‘backsliding’ but that of an unsaved person ‘sliding’ deeper into sin.....and Satan's clutches!!
Run for da hills
The unsaved CANNOT BACKSLIDE deeper into sin and the Satans clutches, they are CONDEMED already! They never came to the truth in the first place so how can they backslide?.
Please read what I said……….I said that the unsaved can SLIDE deeper into sin and Satan’s clutches!!
…….obviously only the saved can BACKSLIDE!!!:)
Run for da hills
The Devil is the adversary end of story, to the saved and unsaved and is quite capable of manipulating the minds of the saved, we are WARNED as in Ephesians to protect ourselves from his tactics.
"Put on the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil, for we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high, wherefore take unto you the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand" Ephesians 6vs12.
The Devil is the adversary of the saved……….for the eternal lives of the unsaved!!!
….and WHAT is the ‘whole armour of God’ ?
…surely it is being saved and indwelt by the Holy Spirit of God!!!:cool:
Run for da hills
When someone is initially "saved" by grace it is by faith alone in Jesus Christ and not by any works. "For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast." Ephesians 2:8-9 KJV
However Gods plan to the saved in fact dose involve "works" such as preaching the Gospel to the unsaved and helping the needy. "What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?" James 2:14 This verse is telling us that when you have faith in God it will be seen in your works. See Ephesians 2:8-10. It does not say or imply that your good works produce salvation.
I agree that good works don’t produce salvation……so WHY do you believe that ‘works’ are required to restore your salvation when you sin AFTER you are saved?
We are saved through FAITH…….and we perform works BECAUSE we are saved!!!
Faith is the CAUSE of our salvation …….and works are the RESULT!!!:)
Run for da hills
The people who hold full (faith) based salvation have this illusion that they have a "blank cheque" written from God and can go around for the rest of their lives believing they are immune from their dirty sinful carnal habits. On the other hand I believe all my future sins are forgiven only if I confess them and remain living the rest of my life in accordance to Gods plan.
I have already said that we are NOT immune from our sins…….we will suffer physical punishment (up to and including physical death) for them.
The problem that you have with believing that your sins are only forgiven if you confess them ALL is the same problem that all ‘works’ based believers have…….so HOW will your unrepented sins be forgiven after you die???
Run for da hills
All sin is of the Devil to both to the saved or unsaved and will be punished even more so for the “saved” that has sinned after his initial calling because he knows well that he is transgressing against God.
…..so if we take that belief to it’s logical conclusion we would all be better off postponing our salvation until our last dying breath…….or, even better still, have somebody else praying for us AFTER we die to have our sins remitted!!!!
Run for da hills
Are you are talking of a non existent "temporal punishment"? Do I smell purgatory??
The temporal punishment for sin (death, disease, disaster, destruction of mind and body, etc) is very real……..and you receive this punishment WHILE YOU ARE STILL ALIVE……
.........unlike Purgatory…..which (‘works’ based believers) think they will endure AFTER they die (in order to 'purge' their inevitable unrepented sins)!!!
Run for da hills
If do not continue to walk in Gods plan after you are initially saved you will suffer the consequences."And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth" Matthew 25vs30
The ‘unprofitable servant’ obviously was NEVER saved ……..and he didn’t bother to promote the things of God in either his own life and the lives of others!!!!
Run for da hills
Again but this time KJV. "Know ye not that they which run in a race run all, but one receiveth the prize? So run, that ye may obtain. And every man that striveth for the mastery is temperate in all things. Now they do it to obtain a corruptible crown; but we an incorruptible. I therefore so run, not as uncertainly; so fight I, not as one that beateth the air",
Yes, we should contend for Jesus against the works of the Devil…….and we have the certainty of our salvation to support us!!!!
Run for da hills
The wages of Sin is Death, end of story, to both the saved and unsaved. The only known antidote to sin is REPENTANCE to and pleading to God for forgiveness each time you are convicted of it.
The wages of sin is physical death………and the gift of God is eternal life for those who believe on Him!!!:)0 -
Not sure.
Continue on to the next verse of Ephesians 14 to 17 it describes the Armour of God.and WHAT is the ‘whole armour of God’ ?
"Stand therefore, having your loins girt about with truth, and having on the breastplate of righteousness, and your feet shod with the preparation of the gospel of peace, Above all, taking the shield of faith, wherewith ye shall be able to quench all the fiery darts of the wicked. and take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God":
We are commanded to preach the Gospel to the unsaved.these are works of which we are Judged on, hense "And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth" Matthew 25vs30.I agree that good works don’t produce salvation……so WHY do you believe that ‘works’ are required to restore your salvation when you sin AFTER you are saved?
and again, we are Judged on those works, ie helping the poor etc,We are saved through FAITH…….and we perform works BECAUSE we are saved!!! Faith is the CAUSE of our salvation …….and works are the RESULT!!!:
Read the Story (Not parable) of Lazarus and the Rich man (luke 16).
"What does it profit, my brethren, though a man say he has faith, and have not works? Can that faith save him? If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food, And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what does it profit? Even so faith, if it has not works, is dead, being alone". (James 2:14-17) Martin luter himself had difficulty with this verse.
The Holy Spirit cannot operate in the life of the person if there is sin present, If the Holy Spirit leaves that person it leaves a void and satan returns and takes control again, he looses interest in reading the Bible, he no longer prays or has fellowship,attends church backsliding is a process. It is not something that comes "overnight" The Backslider has accumilated so much sin in his life that he no longer feels guilty when he sins, this is the dangerous stage of that person dying in his sins. In fact a Backslider can become in a WORSE position than he was before he was saved...I have already said that we are NOT immune from our sins…….we will suffer physical punishment (up to and including physical death) for them.
The problem that you have with believing that your sins are only forgiven if you confess them ALL is the same problem that all ‘works’ based believers have…….so HOW will your unrepented sins be forgiven after you die???
Read Matthew 12:43-45
"When the unclean spirit is gone out of a man, he walketh through dry places, seeking rest, and findeth none, Then he saith, I will return into my house from whence I came out; and when he is come, he findeth it empty, swept, and garnished. Then goeth he, and taketh with himself seven other spirits more wicked than himself, and they enter in and dwell there: and the last state of that man is worse than the first
A saved Person who is "walking with christ" day to day knows exactly where he stands.
It is best not to fall back at all and suffer the concequences.[
All sin is of the Devil to both to the saved or unsaved and will be punished even more so for the “saved” that has sinned after his initial calling because he knows well that he is transgressing against God.
…..so if we take that belief to it’s logical conclusion we would all be better off postponing our salvation until our last dying breath…….or, even better still, have somebody else praying for us AFTER we die to have our sins remitted!!!!
Anyone can also suffer from death, disease, disaster, destruction of mind and body whether they sin or not or whether they are saved or not. I dont know where you are getting this from.Are you are talking of a non existent "temporal punishment"? Do I smell purgatory??
The temporal punishment for sin (death, disease, disaster, destruction of mind and body, etc) is very real……..and you receive this punishment WHILE YOU ARE STILL ALIVE unlike Purgatory which (‘works’ based believers) think they will endure AFTER they die
The parable of the unprofitable servant is about Judgment based on what you do with what you've been given.If do not continue to walk in Gods plan after you are initially saved you will suffer the consequences."And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth" Matthew 25vs30
The ‘unprofitable servant’ obviously was NEVER saved ……..and he didn’t bother to promote the things of God in either his own life and the lives of others!!!!
Dont forger there is such thing as the second death! But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.The wages of Sin is Death, end of story, to both the saved and unsaved. The only known antidote to sin is REPENTANCE to and pleading to God for forgiveness each time you are convicted of it.
The wages of sin is physical death………and the gift of God is eternal life for those who believe on Him.0 -
Those that believe "once saved always saved" is a false docterine.
.......just the characteristics of being saved and indwelt with the Holy Spirit.Run_to_da_hills wrote: »Continue on to the next verse of Ephesians 14 to 17 it describes the Armour of God.
"Stand therefore, having your loins girt about with truth, and having on the breastplate of righteousness, and your feet shod with the preparation of the gospel of peace, Above all, taking the shield of faith, wherewith ye shall be able to quench all the fiery darts of the wicked. and take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God":
We are commanded to preach the Gospel to the unsaved.these are works of which we are Judged on, hense "And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth" Matthew 25vs30.Run_to_da_hills wrote: »and again, we are Judged on those works, ie helping the poor etc,
Read the Story (Not parable) of Lazarus and the Rich man (luke 16).
"What does it profit, my brethren, though a man say he has faith, and have not works? Can that faith save him? If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food, And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what does it profit? Even so faith, if it has not works, is dead, being alone". (James 2:14-17) Martin luter himself had difficulty with this verse.
I do not deny the importance of good works........
......but we are SAVED through FAITH…….and we perform works BECAUSE we are saved!!!
Faith is the CAUSE of our salvation …….and works are the RESULT!!!:
It would be 'putting the cart before the horse' to hold that works are the CAUSE of our salvation!!!Run_to_da_hills wrote: »The Holy Spirit cannot operate in the life of the person if there is sin present, If the Holy Spirit leaves that person it leaves a void and satan returns and takes control again, he looses interest in reading the Bible, he no longer prays or has fellowship,attends church backsliding is a process. It is not something that comes "overnight" The Backslider has accumilated so much sin in his life that he no longer feels guilty when he sins, this is the dangerous stage of that person dying in his sins. In fact a Backslider can become in a WORSE position than he was before he was saved...
Read Matthew 12:43-45
"When the unclean spirit is gone out of a man, he walketh through dry places, seeking rest, and findeth none, Then he saith, I will return into my house from whence I came out; and when he is come, he findeth it empty, swept, and garnished. Then goeth he, and taketh with himself seven other spirits more wicked than himself, and they enter in and dwell there: and the last state of that man is worse than the first
The Holy Spirit PERMANENTLY indwells the saved person (who has a sinful body that eventually physically dies)!!!
The man in Mt 12:43-45 was possessed and cured of his possession .....but he wasn't saved.....and so he remained 'fair game' for re-possession by demons!!!Run_to_da_hills wrote: »A saved Person who is "walking with christ" day to day knows exactly where he stands.
It is best not to fall back at all and suffer the concequences.
A saved person knows that s/he is saved!!!
It is certainly best to AVOID sin.......but the just man 'falls' one hundred times a day!!!!
It is one of the ironies that the unsaved generally think of themselves as 'good people' not in need of salvation while the saved think of themselves as 'sinful people' not deserving of salvation!!!
Funny thing, but the 'sinful wretches' who are saved, tend NOT to be judgemental or legalistic......they are just glad to be saved......and they are more than happy to leave the judgement of the unsaved and the outworking of the Moral Law to God!!!Run_to_da_hills wrote: »Anyone can also suffer from death, disease, disaster, destruction of mind and body whether they sin or not or whether they are saved or not. I dont know where you are getting this from.
The sinful bodies of BOTH the saved AND the unsaved suffer from death, disease, disaster, destruction of mind and body......it is a result of the Fall......but it's effects can be increased by a sinful lifestyle.
The parable of the unprofitable servant is about Judgment based on what you DON'T do with what you've been given.....and the unsaved DON'T avail of the offer of salvation......and are thus 'unprofitable' to God!!Run_to_da_hills wrote: »The parable of the unprofitable servant is about Judgment based on what you do with what you've been given.Run_to_da_hills wrote: »Dont forget there is such thing as the second death! But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.
.......and such as these were many Christians BEFORE they were saved!!!
EVERYONE suffers (the first) death....and AFTERWARDS the saved enter everlasting life.....with the unsaved suffering the second death of eternal perdition!!!
.....just remember ....... you gotta have FAITH.....and everything else will follow!!!
.......I will be away in Europe for the next week......God Bless you all!!0 -
Not sure.
Faith without works is DEAD quoting from James again.I do not deny the importance of good works.but we are SAVED through FAITH and we perform works BECAUSE we are saved!!! Faith is the CAUSE of our salvation …….and works are the RESULT!!!:
It would be 'putting the cart before the horse' to hold that works are the CAUSE of our salvation!!!!!The Holy Spirit PERMANENTLY indwells the saved person (who has a sinful body that eventually physically dies)!!!!!!!!
The Prodigal Son also clearly refutes both strands of OSAS.
In Luke 15vs11to32, we learn that the younger of two sons desired to depart from the Father’s presence and be with the prostitutes. After he spent all his money and was in great distress, he came to his senses (v. 17). He then turned from his sins (repented), was willing to admit that he had sinned and went back into the presence of the Father to work for (or serve) him. This resulted in a feast of celebration. The Father said:
"And bring hither the fatted calf, and kill it; and let us eat, and be merry:
For this my son was DEAD, and is alive again; he was lost, and is found. And they began to be merry". Luke 23,24.
From Jesus’ teaching we learn:
(1) A true son of the Father can become spiritually dead and lost because of sinning.
(2) No man plucked the Prodigal out of the Father’s hand, but the Father let him walk away to his own spiritual harm, even to the place where he became lost.
(3) The Father did not strike the Prodigal dead physically before he became spirituallylost.
(4) The Prodigal was sealed until the day of redemption, like other children of God, but he still died and became spiritually lost because of wild living and sexual immorality.
(5) The Father’s love for his son didn’t prevent him from becoming spiritually dead and lost through sin.
(6) The Father always remained faithful, but sin still put God’s son to death.
(7) The Father didn’t leave or forsake him, but he left and forsook the Father. The Father let him go.
(8) After he repented, he became alive again, which implies his spiritual condition went as follows: spiritually alive—then spiritually dead or lost—then spiritually alive again.
The important point the Father was emphasizing in verses 24 and 32 was the complete reversal of the Prodigal’s spiritual condition, now that he repented. He went from dead to alive again, which is equated in the same sentence as going from lost to found. Hence, there is great reason to rejoice over such a sinner that repents, as already mentioned two separate times in this same chapter.
It also shows he got saved again through repentance after he became lost.
Similarly, Rom. 11:23 says, "And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again." Rom. 11:23
Its best to avoud sin because it causes Spiritual DEATH!It is certainly best to AVOID sin but the just man 'falls' one hundred times a day!!!!!!!!!
I would agree with you there, certainly a sexually permiscous person will have a higher chance of pick up STDs than someone with one partner (Profided his/her partner is faithful!). Or someone involved in serious drug dealing or robbery has more chance of being bumped off.
The sinful bodies of BOTH the saved AND the unsaved suffer from death, disease, disaster, destruction of mind and body......it is a result of the Fall......but it's effects can be increased by a sinful lifestyle.
Judas Iscariot went astray from his former condition of being saved and also clearly refutes any strand of OSAS
If Judas was never saved then Jesus sent an unsaved man along with the rest of the Twelve, to preach his gospel, heal the sick, raise the dead, cleanse leprosy and drive out demons (Mt. 10:7,8)! Mk. 3:14,15 state that the Twelve, including Judas, were given spiritual authority by Jesus to drive out demons.
Would Jesus give an unsaved man the same type of spiritual authority along with the unquestionably saved apostles, to likewise be his holy representative? Never!!!
For a person to say that Judas was never saved is to say, unwittingly, that Jesus chose a child of the devil to be his holy representative, which is borderline blasphemy.
Judas was once a saved man who preached the Gospel, healed the sick, then went astray and ended up in eternal fire, after he betrayed Jesus and committed suicide.
Judas once had eternal life like the rest of the Twelve! In spite of this, he was doomed to destruction after his death. There was no OSAS for the Apostle Judas and likewise to anyone else who falls away.
Enjoy Europe.0 -
Those that believe "once saved always saved" is a false docterine.Run to da hills
Faith without works is DEAD quoting from James again.
I agree…………BUT that doesn’t disprove my Biblically based contention that Faith is the CAUSE of our salvation …….and works are the RESULT!!!!
Run to da hills
The Prodigal Son also clearly refutes both strands of OSAS.
In Luke 15vs11to32, we learn that the younger of two sons desired to depart from the Father’s presence and be with the prostitutes. After he spent all his money and was in great distress, he came to his senses (v. 17). He then turned from his sins (repented), was willing to admit that he had sinned and went back into the presence of the Father to work for (or serve) him. This resulted in a feast of celebration. The Father said:
"And bring hither the fatted calf, and kill it; and let us eat, and be merry: For this my son was DEAD, and is alive again; he was lost, and is found. And they began to be merry". Luke 23,24.
The parable of the Prodigal Son is about a fallen Humanity, separated from God through their own foolishness. It illustrates God’s unending love for us, no matter what we have done…..and His willingness to save us once we repent and turn to Him in faith!!!
We are DEAD and lost BEFORE we are saved…..but what amazing grace that saved a (sinful) wretch like me!!!:D
Run to da hills
From Jesus’ teaching we learn:
(1) A true son of the Father can become spiritually dead and lost because of sinning.
The parable was used by Jesus Christ PRIMARILY to illustrate the mercy and love of God …….and it is only tangentially relevant to salvation
As the resultant products of God's Direct Creation of Adam and Eve, we are ALL children of God…….some spiritually dead and lost……others spiritually alive and saved!!!
Run to da hills
(2) No man plucked the Prodigal out of the Father’s hand, but the Father let him walk away to his own spiritual harm, even to the place where he became lost.
The Prodigal son wasn’t in the father’s hand to begin with…….he was obviously a very headstrong (and fallen) young man…..who eventually realised the insanity of his position and lifestyle ….. and came to his senses…….and turned with repentance and faith to his father in order to change his lifestyle.
Run to da hills
(3) The Father did not strike the Prodigal dead physically before he became spiritually lost.
…and God does not physically kill the spiritually lost either…….otherwise, as everyone is originally lost, nobody would be saved.
God is ever patient……but He allows us all to suffer the physical consequences of our lifestyles and our sinful acts....and those of others.
Some people, like the Prodigal, realise that they need to change and they decide to be saved……while others continue on their (not so) ‘merry ways’!!!
Run to da hills
(4) The Prodigal was sealed until the day of redemption, like other children of God, but he still died and became spiritually lost because of wild living and sexual immorality.
……The Prodigal didn’t actually exist……..it was just a parable to illustrate the mercy and love of God!!!
Run to da hills
(5) The Father’s love for his son didn’t prevent him from becoming spiritually dead and lost through sin.
….just like God’s love for EVERY Human DOESN’T save them…….unless they repent and believe on Him to save them!!!
Run to da hills
(6) The Father always remained faithful, but sin still put God’s son to death.
…..God is faithful and just……saving all who believe on Him and judging all who don’t…........
.....and EVERY person physically dies because of the effects of sin.
Run to da hills
(7) The Father didn’t leave or forsake him, but he left and forsook the Father. The Father let him go.
……just like Adam forsook God……but God didn’t forsake Mankind …..but remained faithful to His promise to send a Saviour for Humanity, the man Jesus Christ!!!
Run to da hills
(8) After he repented, he became alive again, which implies his spiritual condition went as follows: spiritually alive—then spiritually dead or lost—then spiritually alive again.
The Prodigal Son was 'lost' and 'became alive again' to his father…….just like Humanity is lost but individuals can become alive again to God by being saved!!!
Run to da hills
The important point the Father was emphasizing in verses 24 and 32 was the complete reversal of the Prodigal’s spiritual condition, now that he repented. He went from dead to alive again, which is equated in the same sentence as going from lost to found. Hence, there is great reason to rejoice over such a sinner that repents, as already mentioned two separate times in this same chapter.
There is of course great reason to celebrate when a sinner repents and is saved under OSAS……but IF his next sin were to unsave him (as you maintain) then there would be no reason to bother celebrating……you would need to wait until Judgement Day to really find out if he was saved at all!!!!:eek::)
Originally Posted by J C
It is certainly best to AVOID sin but the just man 'falls' one hundred times a day!!!!!!!!!
Run to da hills
Its best to avoid sin because it causes Spiritual DEATH!
It is best to be saved from sin by believing on Jesus Christ ……and to avoid sin thereafter to minimise the effects of the Fall on your life!!!
The saved are spiritually alive and the unsaved are spiritually dead……but they BOTH occupy sinful bodies……and the bodies of the saved will only become glorious after Christ’s return!!!
Originally Posted by J C
The sinful bodies of BOTH the saved AND the unsaved suffer from death, disease, disaster, destruction of mind and body......it is a result of the Fall......but it's effects can be increased by a sinful lifestyle
Run to da hills
I would agree with you there, certainly a sexually permiscous person will have a higher chance of pick up STDs than someone with one partner (Profided his/her partner is faithful!). Or someone involved in serious drug dealing or robbery has more chance of being bumped off.
…and that is one of the reasons why BOTH the saved and the unsaved should avoid sin!!!!!
…..but a 'squeaky clean' life will be all in vain for the unsaved, unless the believe on Jesus Christ to save them!!!
Run to da hills
Judas Iscariot went astray from his former condition of being saved and also clearly refutes any strand of OSAS
If Judas was never saved then Jesus sent an unsaved man along with the rest of the Twelve, to preach his gospel, heal the sick, raise the dead, cleanse leprosy and drive out demons (Mt. 10:7,8)! Mk. 3:14,15 state that the Twelve, including Judas, were given spiritual authority by Jesus to drive out demons.
Would Jesus give an unsaved man the same type of spiritual authority along with the unquestionably saved apostles, to likewise be his holy representative? Never!!!
Never!!.... Never!!.... Never!!!.......now where did I hear that word before???:eek::D
Anyway, the ability to cast out demons in Jesus Christ’s name prior to His death and resurrection was not confined to any particular group, as Lk 9:49 illustrates “and John answered and said, Master, we saw one casting out devils in thy name; and we forbad him, because he followeth not with us And Jesus said unto him, Forbid him not: for he that is not against us is for us.”
As I have already said NOBODY could be saved before Jesus had died on the cross for sin…..so NOBODY, including Judas and the other eleven apostles, were saved when Jesus sent them forth in Mt 10:5.
Run to da hills
For a person to say that Judas was never saved is to say, unwittingly, that Jesus chose a child of the devil to be his holy representative, which is borderline blasphemy.
Jesus has NO saved people to choose from before He died…..and Jesus even confirmed that PETER was an unsaved ‘child of the devil’ in Mt 16:23 “But he turned, and said unto Peter, Get thee behind me, Satan: thou art an offence unto me: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but those that be of men.”
… it is actually incorrect, to believe that people were saved BEFORE Jesus Christ had died to save them!!!:)
Run to da hills
Judas was once a saved man who preached the Gospel, healed the sick, then went astray and ended up in eternal fire, after he betrayed Jesus and committed suicide.
Judas may well have done good works under the power and authority of Jesus Christ .......but neither he nor any of the other Apostles were saved BEFORE Jesus died!!!
Run to da hills
Judas once had eternal life like the rest of the Twelve! In spite of this, he was doomed to destruction after his death. There was no OSAS for the Apostle Judas and likewise to anyone else who falls away
There was no OSAS for Judas because he was never saved in the first place!!!:D0 -
Those that believe "once saved always saved" is a false docterine.
Since you haven't (yet) answered my question to you in post #95 of the Discovering the Truth thread, let me post it here again as it deals directly with your assertion:JC and RTDH, could I be very cheeky and ask why the two of you can't agree on wheter OSAS is true? Could it be you aren't qualified to interpret scripture for yourselves in the same way that I'm not qualified? I dare suggest that you're missing half of the picture i.e. Sacred Tradition. There, I've said it now
kelly1 said:
Quote:
James 5 shows that priests had the power to forgive sins
14 Is any man sick among you? Let him bring in the priests of the church
I'm sorry not to have responded to your most interesting posts earlier, but I have been busy on another thread and am now restricted by time.
Let me ask two brief questions however:
1. What version are you using that translates the Greek presbuteros as priests? The word means elders, not priests. The Greek for priests is hiereus.
2. You originally said: Quote:
Up to the time of the Reformation, there was only one Christian Church whose teachings never changed (and still haven't changed).
Of course you have forgotten the Eastern Church, which split with Rome long before the Reformation; and the many believer-only churches that were hounded to death by the RCC down the centuries before the Reformation. But the question I want to ask from your statement is this:
Are all the teachings of the Popes infallible? If not, how do we know which ones are and which ones aren't? Does that not put you in at least as much difficulty as the Protestants?
Thanks.0 -
Not sure.Eternal security implies a 'license' to sin without consequences, Eternal security is detrimental to the cause of Christ and those who teach eternal security advance the cause of Satan.
"Ye are the salt of the earth: but if the salt have lost his savour, wherewith shall it be salted? it is thenceforth good for nothing, but to be cast out, and to be trodden under foot of men".Matthew 5:13
note that Christ is speaking to His disciples here, ie the saved and not the world.
"Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven" Matthew 7:21notice it's not enough merely to know that he is Lord (or even to call him that), but we must "do" the will of God.
Luke 9:25 For what is a man advantaged, if he gain the whole world, and lose himself, or be cast away?
it is interesting that Christ used the term "cast away"- this term is used by the apostle Paul in I Cor. as well, and refers to the special punishment of an apostate believer.
"Confirming the souls of the disciples, and exhorting them to continue in the faith, and that we must through much tribulation enter into the kingdom of God". Acts 14:22
the early church knew it was important to CONTINUE in the faith. They didn't merely hold an evangelistic crusade, and send the folks on their way with an easy-believism message, they CONFIRMED the souls of the disciples and exhorted them to "CONTINUE IN THE FAITH". (Doesn't this sound so contrary to the watered-down gospel that is preached today)
I Cor 6:9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, 6:10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God. remember the letter is addressed to believers, and yet why all the warnings if there were/are no consequences.0 -
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Run_to_da_hills wrote: »Eternal security implies a 'license' to sin without consequences, Eternal security is detrimental to the cause of Christ and those who teach eternal security advance the cause of Satan.
I disagree with you here.
Eternal security allows me to live my life without the shackles of law or rules.
I live life according to the promptings of the Holy Spirit and prayer for the ability to discern the Spirits will.
We are being transformed into the image of Christ, by the Holy Spirit. I'm not there yet, I will sin, but I don't have to get my knickers in a twist over whether or not I'm saved.
I know this because my heart lies with God. My lifestyle shows that and the fruits of teh spirit bears it.0 -
Those that believe "once saved always saved" is a false docterine.Run_to_da_hills wrote: »Eternal security implies a 'license' to sin without consequences, Eternal security is detrimental to the cause of Christ and those who teach eternal security advance the cause of Satan.
Salvation forgives my sins......but I retain a sinful body that I need to control with the assistance of the Holy Spirit!!!
.....and NOBODY sins without consequences.....in this World for the saved and the unsaved......and in the next World for the unsaved!!!Run_to_da_hills wrote: »"Ye are the salt of the earth: but if the salt have lost his savour, wherewith shall it be salted? it is thenceforth good for nothing, but to be cast out, and to be trodden under foot of men".Matthew 5:13
note that Christ is speaking to His disciples here, ie the saved and not the world.
.....the point that you have missed is that salt NEVER loses it's flavour.......but IF it did it would become useless and incapable EVER of restoration.....and that is why OSAS is valid!!!!
Empty words are obviously useless......but we are still saved ONLY by faith....and our actions follow on from that salvation!!!:DRun_to_da_hills wrote: »"Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven" Matthew 7:21notice it's not enough merely to know that he is Lord (or even to call him that), but we must "do" the will of God.
Jesus is referring to fact that even somebody who owned the whole world would still die and suffer eternal perdition if he is not saved!!Run_to_da_hills wrote: »Luke 9:25 For what is a man advantaged, if he gain the whole world, and lose himself, or be cast away?
it is interesting that Christ used the term "cast away"- this term is used by the apostle Paul in I Cor. as well, and refers to the special punishment of an apostate believer.
The obligation to live in accordance with Christian principles is there for all saved people.......but their salvation is secure from Satan!!Run_to_da_hills wrote: »"Confirming the souls of the disciples, and exhorting them to continue in the faith, and that we must through much tribulation enter into the kingdom of God". Acts 14:22
the early church knew it was important to CONTINUE in the faith. They didn't merely hold an evangelistic crusade, and send the folks on their way with an easy-believism message, they CONFIRMED the souls of the disciples and exhorted them to "CONTINUE IN THE FAITH". (Doesn't this sound so contrary to the watered-down gospel that is preached today)0 -
Not sure.
Brian and JC I gather that both of you have no problem that your salvation is secure because both of you are willing to keep up the faith, I am not talking about the Christian who stumbles and gets back up again in his walk with Christ. In this topic I am referring to those who deliberatly turns their back on Christ, ie reject the word of God after being initially saved. Ie those that are living that have "forgotten that they have been saved" in the first place.BrianCalgary wrote: »I disagree with you here.
Eternal security allows me to live my life without the shackles of law or rules.
I live life according to the promptings of the Holy Spirit and prayer for the ability to discern the Spirits will.
We are being transformed into the image of Christ, by the Holy Spirit. I'm not there yet, I will sin, but I don't have to get my knickers in a twist over whether or not I'm saved.
I know this because my heart lies with God. My lifestyle shows that and the fruits of teh spirit bears it......the point that you have missed is that salt NEVER loses it's flavour.......but IF it did it would become useless and incapable EVER of restoration.....and that is why OSAS is valid!!!!!!
You are wrong!!!!! The salt of the Dead Sea has the unique characteristics of loosing its flavour.
All the minerals in the water settle to the bottom of the sea. The salt of the water is suspended in the water and along the shore there is a white salty mineral. This area is very warm year round and the water of the Dead Sea is very warm. At night when the air cools the minerals along the shore crystallize and is salty to the taste. When the sun comes out there is a chemical reaction in which this mineral looses its salty flavor. This mineral becomes of no value. It is a waste product of the Dead Sea.
When Jesus was teaching the people while on the mountain He drew their attention to this truth of the salt loosing its flavor and not being of any value. It is possible that the people understood His illustration.
Jesus was not talking about the factory produced yellow pack salt.
Paul warns us in Timothy “For the love of money is a root of all kinds of evil, and in their eagerness to be rich some have wandered away from the faith.” 1 Timothy 6:10Jesus is referring to fact that even somebody who owned the whole world would still die and suffer eternal perdition if he is not saved!!
Thats what Satan would like all saved people to believe, but infact Salvation is secure only for those that endureth to the end.The obligation to live in accordance with Christian principles is there for all saved people.......but their salvation is secure from Satan!!
"And ye shall be hated of all men for My Name's sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved" (Matthew 10:22).0 -
Those that believe "once saved always saved" is a false docterine.Run_to_da_hills said:
That's a helpful clarification. It takes us to the issue of what you understand happens to such folk:I am not talking about the Christian who stumbles and gets back up again in his walk with Christ. In this topic I am referring to those who deliberatly turns their back on Christ, ie reject the word of God after being initially saved. Ie those that are living that have "forgotten that they have been saved" in the first place.
1. Are they able to repent again and be re-saved?
2. Are they forever beyond hope?
3. What percentage of true Christians become unsaved?
4. What do you say to the many who have made a profession of Christian faith but then fell into adultery, drunkeness, theft, etc?
I think answers to those questions will lead us well on in our search for the truth about OSAS.0 -
Not sure.Run_to_da_hills said:
That's a helpful clarification. It takes us to the issue of what you understand happens to such folk:
1. Are they able to repent again and be re-saved?
2. Are they forever beyond hope?
3. What percentage of true Christians become unsaved?
4. What do you say to the many who have made a profession of Christian faith but then fell into adultery, drunkeness, theft, etc?
I think answers to those questions will lead us well on in our search for the truth about OSAS.
Answers,
1/ You are saved once, you can repent of your sin and be braught back to your relationship with God as with the case of the prodigal son. (Sin seperates us all from God, saved or unsaved. those that believe OSAS dont seem to understand this)
2/No, No matter how far someone falls back into sin they can never go too far however we are told that blasphemy against the Holy Spirit is an unforgivible sin. "Therefore I say to you, any sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven men, but blasphemy against the Spirit shall not be forgiven. (Matthew 12vs31)
3/Matthew would state that the precentage would be high for those that become "unsaved", "For many are called, but few are chosen". (Matthew 22vs 14) Also "Strive to enter in at the strait gate: for many, I say unto you, will seek to enter in, and shall not be able" (Matthew 7vs13).
4/I would have been of this category myself. If I had not repented and come back I would have died in my sins and would have been condemed more than any unsaved person because I knew what was right.0 -
Those that believe "once saved always saved" is a false docterine.I had said:It takes us to the issue of what you understand happens to such folk:
1. Are they able to repent again and be re-saved?
2. Are they forever beyond hope?
3. What percentage of true Christians become unsaved?
4. What do you say to the many who have made a profession of Christian faith but then fell into adultery, drunkeness, theft, etc?
Run_to_da_hills answers,
If a truly saved man can fall away, what then do these Scriptures tell us?1/ You are saved once, you can repent of your sin and be braught back to your relationship with God as with the case of the prodigal son.
Hebrews 6:4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, 5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, 6 if they fall away, to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to an open shame.
Hebrews 10:26 For if we sin willfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, 27 but a certain fearful expectation of judgment, and fiery indignation which will devour the adversaries.
I understand it. The sin of a son is disciplined by his Father; the sin of those not sons is dealt with by the Judge. One results in renewed repentance; the other in eternal damnation.Sin seperates us all from God, saved or unsaved. Those that believe OSAS dont seem to understand this)
Are you saying that every sin in thought, word and deed that we may fall into daily unsaves us? How many times have you been unsaved this week? Or have you not sinned for years?
See above. If the saved can be lost, it is permanent. Then the any sin and blasphemy Christ referred to means those commited by sinners before their conversion, not after.2/No, No matter how far someone falls back into sin they can never go too far however we are told that blasphemy against the Holy Spirit is an unforgivible sin. "Therefore I say to you, any sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven men, but blasphemy against the Spirit shall not be forgiven. (Matthew 12vs31)
All who hear the gospel are called to repentance, but only the elect will obey it.3/Matthew would state that the precentage would be high for those that become "unsaved", "For many are called, but few are chosen". (Matthew 22vs 14) Also "Strive to enter in at the strait gate: for many, I say unto you, will seek to enter in, and shall not be able" (Matthew 7vs13).
Notice that those not able are only they who seek to enter the road to eternal life, not those already on it.
Nothing here about anyone becoming "unsaved".
Exactly - but because you were a true Christian, you did repent. It is not possible that God would abandon you to your folly. He either brings you to repentance or He removes you from your sin:4/I would have been of this category myself. If I had not repented and come back I would have died in my sins and would have been condemed more than any unsaved person because I knew what was right.
1 Corinthians 11:30 For this reason many are weak and sick among you, and many sleep. 31 For if we would judge ourselves, we would not be judged. 32 But when we are judged, we are chastened by the Lord, that we may not be condemned with the world.
God does what ever it takes to keep us from being condemned like the rest of the world.
Romans 8:31 What then shall we say to these things? If God is for us, who can be against us? 32 He who did not spare His own Son, but delivered Him up for us all, how shall He not with Him also freely give us all things? 33 Who shall bring a charge against God’s elect? It is God who justifies. 34 Who is he who condemns? It is Christ who died, and furthermore is also risen, who is even at the right hand of God, who also makes intercession for us. 35 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword? 36 As it is written:
“ For Your sake we are killed all day long;
We are accounted as sheep for the slaughter.”
37 Yet in all these things we are more than conquerors through Him who loved us. 38 For I am persuaded that neither death nor life, nor angels nor principalities nor powers, nor things present nor things to come, 39 nor height nor depth, nor any other created thing, shall be able to separate us from the love of God which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.0 -
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Those that believe "once saved always saved" is a false docterine.Run_to_da_hills wrote: »Brian and JC I gather that both of you have no problem that your salvation is secure because both of you are willing to keep up the faith, I am not talking about the Christian who stumbles and gets back up again in his walk with Christ. In this topic I am referring to those who deliberatly turns their back on Christ, ie reject the word of God after being initially saved. Ie those that are living that have "forgotten that they have been saved" in the first place.
NOBODY who is saved and indwelt by the Holy Spirit "forgets that they have been saved !!!Run_to_da_hills wrote: »You are wrong!!!!! The salt of the Dead Sea has the unique characteristics of loosing its flavour.
All the minerals in the water settle to the bottom of the sea. The salt of the water is suspended in the water and along the shore there is a white salty mineral. This area is very warm year round and the water of the Dead Sea is very warm. At night when the air cools the minerals along the shore crystallize and is salty to the taste. When the sun comes out there is a chemical reaction in which this mineral looses its salty flavor. This mineral becomes of no value. It is a waste product of the Dead Sea.
When Jesus was teaching the people while on the mountain He drew their attention to this truth of the salt loosing its flavor and not being of any value. It is possible that the people understood His illustration.
The mineral rich waters of the Dead Sea are saturated with Common Salt.
A plain reading of the cited verses of Scripture would indicate that Jesus was talking about Common Salt.......which adds it's flavour......even when it is diluted.
Common Salt is a very stable compound which can only be destroyed artificially by electrolysis. It can be detected, even at very low concentrations and it therefore is a very good analogy for the impact that Christians make on the world.
It was a rhetorical question that Jesus was posing.......when He said in Mt 5:13 "Ye are the salt of the earth: but if the salt have lost his savour, wherewith shall it be salted? "
On the one hand, Jesus was saying that Salt cannot be 're-salted'
......just like a saved Christian also cannot be ''re-saved' ........
......but as salt doesn't lose it's flavour by natural processes.....Christians cannot be 'unsaved' either!!!!
…..and it continues on that such people “pierced themselves through with many sorrows.”Run_to_da_hills wrote: »Paul warns us in Timothy “For the love of money is a root of all kinds of evil, and in their eagerness to be rich some have wandered away from the faith.” 1 Timothy 6:10
Paul is making the point that the things of this world ultimately fail to satisfy us ……and the next verse urges Timothy to avoid being caught up in worldly affairs……but it doesn’t cast any doubt on his ultimate salvation.
1Ti 6:11 But you, O man of God, flee these things and pursue righteousness, godliness, faith, love, patience, gentleness.0 -
Run_to_da_hills wrote: »Brian and JC I gather that both of you have no problem that your salvation is secure because both of you are willing to keep up the faith, I am not talking about the Christian who stumbles and gets back up again in his walk with Christ. In this topic I am referring to those who deliberatly turns their back on Christ, ie reject the word of God after being initially saved. Ie those that are living that have "forgotten that they have been saved" in the first place.
.
This I can agree on. Then the question begs itself of th eperson who does 'backslide' to such a degree, where they saved in the first place?
I think that it is an unanswerable question.0 -
Not sure.Personally I think this saved (past tense) business is a load of nonsense. Nobody knows until you die. Even St Paul was unsure of his salvation.Phil 3:11 If by any means I may attain to the resurrection which is from the dead. 12 Not as though I has already attained, or were already perfect; but I follow after, if I may by any means apprehend, wherein I am also apprehended by Christ Jesus. 13 Brethren, I do not count myself to have apprehended. But one thing I do: forgetting the things that are behind, and stretching forth myself to those that are before, 14 I press towards the mark, to the prize of the supernal vocation of God in Christ Jesus.0
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Phillipians 3
10I want to know Christ and the power of his resurrection and the fellowship of sharing in his sufferings, becoming like him in his death, 11and so, somehow, to attain to the resurrection from the dead.
Pressing on Toward the Goal
12Not that I have already obtained all this, or have already been made perfect, but I press on to take hold of that for which Christ Jesus took hold of me. 13Brothers, I do not consider myself yet to have taken hold of it. But one thing I do: Forgetting what is behind and straining toward what is ahead, 14I press on toward the goal to win the prize for which God has called me heavenward in Christ Jesus.
15All of us who are mature should take such a view of things. And if on some point you think differently, that too God will make clear to you. 16Only let us live up to what we have already attained.
17Join with others in following my example, brothers, and take note of those who live according to the pattern we gave you.
Paul is understanding taht we are all a work in progress. That while here on Earth we will not and cannot get to the Christlikeness that we desire.
That will only be attained on sharing His resurrection.
Quite in line with Romans 8:29
29For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the likeness of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers.0 -
Not sure.
A person can very easily forget that they have been saved, infact they can forget the very sins that God has forgiven them from if they "return to their own vomit" as it is very well put in 2 peter22vs2.NOBODY who is saved and indwelt by the Holy Spirit "forgets that they have been saved !!!.
They did not have a periodic table of elements back in those days, the dead sea was known as the "Salt Sea" (Genisis 14vs3) and as I said before, the salt that was exposed at the edge of this sea lost its flavour,and this is what Jesus was talking about, ie It cannot be "re-salted". A Christian cannot be "re-saved" but a backslider who has truely repented can be "grafted back" (Romans 11:23)The mineral rich waters of the Dead Sea are saturated with Common Salt.
On the one hand, Jesus was saying that Salt cannot be 're-salted'
......just like a saved Christian also cannot be ''re-saved' ........
......but as salt doesn't lose it's flavour by natural processes.....Christians cannot be 'unsaved' either!!!!!!!.
"Brethren, if anyone among you wanders from the truth, and someone turns him back, let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save his soul from death and cover a multitude of sins" (James 5:19,20)
Note: If the backslider does not get corrected, his soul will perish with spiritual death. That is not everlasting life. The word wanders also means to sever or fall away from the truth, to be led astray into error and sin.
The word from also means of departing, of fleeing, of any kind of separation of one thing from another by which the union or fellowship of the two is destroyed. Clearly, this is about brethren who are no longer saved. The word turns also means to cause to return, to bring back to the love and obedience of God. That's part of what I'm trying to do with this web page. The word save also means to preserve one who is in danger of destruction. The word death is the same one in 1:15 above and it also means with the implied idea of future misery in hell, the misery of the soul arising from sin, which begins on earth but lasts and increases after the death of the body in hell
I cannot find even one shred of evidence that OSAS is true. Almost as amazing was the way the OSAS teachers distorted Bible passages to fit into the OSAS teaching. I found their distortions so unfounded and false that I could not even begin to comprehend how they could interpret passages the way they do
If God didn’t want us to be able to choose He would not have given us the gift of freewill. It is this gift which places us above the animals. It is this gift which allows us to choose to either worship God or not worship God. It is this gift, and only this gift, which allows us to truly love Him like a son. It is this gift which proves that ‘once saved, always saved’ must be wrong.
If we are saved in spite of ourselves then there is no freewill. If there is no freewill then the Bible is wrong! I don’t believe that the Bible is wrong
Not true, YOU MUST BE SAVED.Personally I think this saved (past tense) business is a load of nonsense. Nobody knows until you die. Even St Paul was unsure of his salvation.
You MUST be a born-again Christian. I don't care how much you may think you're doing for God, or in Jesus' name, it will all amount to absolutely NOTHING if you die in your sins without Christ (John 8:24). The Bible makes this clear in Matthew 7:21-23, "Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity."0 -
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