Once saved always saved is a false doctrine..

kelly1

Not sure.

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

Not true, YOU MUST BE SAVED. You MUST be a born-again Christian.

I am born again because I was baptised. And no I don't have to be a born-again Christian, thanks.

Anyway I think this whole argument between you and JC is getting a bit silly really. There are heaps of passages in scripture that show that salvation can be lost so JC is wrong and you are wrong because being saved isn't a one time event. Our salvation depends on the state of our soul at the moment you die. If you die in a state of grace you are then saved, otherwise you're damned. It's that simple.

Time for me to unsubcribe from this thread methinks.

God bless,
Noel.

Run_to_da_hills

Not sure.

kelly1 wrote: »

I am born again because I was baptised. And no I don't have to be a born-again Christian, thanks.

Anyway I think this whole argument between you and JC is getting a bit silly really. There are heaps of passages in scripture that show that salvation can be lost so JC is wrong and you are wrong because being saved isn't a one time event. Our salvation depends on the state of our soul at the moment you die. If you die in a state of grace you are then saved, otherwise you're damned. It's that simple.

You MUST be born again in spirit, baptism is merely a symbol, the very words of Jesus himself. "Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God". John 3vs3
Also "Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God". The Water being spoken about here is the water which is broken at natural birth of all babies.

The Catholic Church is a system of man-made doctrines, find out for yourself. It is a system of religion, not of God. Salvation is NOT found in any religion, it is found only in a Personal relationship with Jesus Christ.

Getting baptized won't give you the new birth. Getting baptized does only one thing and that is getting you wet.

Does wearing a ring make a person married? Of course not! Likewise, baptism does NOT make anyone a Christian. You can get baptized all you want, it cannot merit you any favor with God.

What is baptism then? It is something God wants us to do AFTER we accept Jesus Christ as our Saviour. A person wears a wedding ring because he or she is ALREADY married. The ring is simply a symbol, it does NOT make you married, any more than getting baptized makes you a believer, It does NOT!!!

Listen to the words of the St Paul in 1st Corinthians 1:17 "For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect."

kelly1

Not sure.

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

Getting baptized won't give you the new birth. Getting baptized does only one thing and that is getting you wet.

Listen to the words of the St Paul in 1st Corinthians 1:17 "For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect."

This verse seems to conflict with Mt 28. Maybe Paul is saying that he's not sent to baptise in his own name as opposed to being baptised in the name of The Father, Son and Holy Spirit?

18 And Jesus coming, spoke to them, saying: All power is given to me in heaven and in earth. 19 Going therefore, teach ye all nations; baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost.


Did Jesus send the Apostles out to wet peoples heads? Do you think Jesus would ask them to do something useless?

And doesn't John 3 show that water is required for baptism?

5 Jesus answered: Amen, amen I say to thee, unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

God bless,
Noel.

Run_to_da_hills

Not sure.

kelly1 wrote: »

This verse seems to conflict with Mt 28. Maybe Paul is saying that he's not sent to baptise in his own name as opposed to being baptised in the name of The Father, Son and Holy Spirit?

18 And Jesus coming, spoke to them, saying: All power is given to me in heaven and in earth. 19 Going therefore, teach ye all nations; baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost.

Read the verse carefully, it is telling us to "teach all nations" then baptising them in that order. Ie those that are baptised are aware of what they are being preached. The Catholic Church and other religions do the exact oposite, ie they baptise first and then preach after.

kelly1 wrote: »

Did Jesus send the Apostles out to wet peoples heads? Do you think Jesus would ask them to do something useless?

To those that are unsaved it is only getting their heads wet. baptism is merely a symbol one partakes after they are saved, one must be consious of being saved before he/she is baptised. Christians get baptised after they have "repented" and made that solomn committment. There is no mention at all of Infant sprinkling baptism in scripture.

kelly1 wrote: »

5 Jesus answered: Amen, amen I say to thee, unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God..

Again, every baby ever born on this planet has been born of water, When a woman gives birth "water is broken". Jesus was not talking about baptism here as all babies are "born in water" at birth.

JimiTime

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

[/B]Again, every baby ever born on this planet has been born of water, When a woman gives birth "water is broken". Jesus was not talking about baptism here as all babies are "born in water" at birth.

I am against infant baptism myself RTTH, however your explaination above is incorrect. The scripture does not say born of water. It says, born AGAIN of water and of holy spirit.

kelly1

Not sure.

JimiTime wrote: »

... however your explaination above is incorrect. The scripture does not say born of water. It says, born AGAIN of water and of holy spirit.

Thanks Jimi, you saved me the trouble

Dangers of private interpretation again...

Run_to_da_hills

Not sure.

JimiTime wrote: »

I am against infant baptism myself RTTH, however your explaination above is incorrect. The scripture does not say born of water. It says, born AGAIN of water and of holy spirit.

Sorry I should have explained it better, the first time one is "born of water" is at the natural birth and the second time is of baptism and of the the Holy Spirit.

kelly1

Not sure.

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

Sorry I should have explained it better, the first time one is born of water is at the natural birth and the second time is of baptism and of the the Holy Spirit.

Sorry, I'm not very clear on what you're saying.

1) Do you think water is necessary for baptism and 2) is baptism to you the same as being born again?

Run_to_da_hills

Not sure.

kelly1 wrote: »

Sorry, I'm not very clear on what you're saying.

1) Do you think water is necessary for baptism and 2) is baptism to you the same as being born again?

1) I dont believe water baptism is necessary for salvation, If we read in Acts, "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved", Full imersion water baptism is merely a symbol as I mentioned before, it is like wearing a wedding ring after one is married and is usually done in public at churches.
2)No, I got baptised several months after I became bornagain.

kelly1

Not sure.

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

1) I dont believe water baptism is necessary for salvation, If we read in Acts, "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved", Full imersion water baptism is merely a symbol as I mentioned before, it is like wearing a wedding ring after one is married and is usually done in public at churches.
2)No, I got baptised several months after I became bornagain.

I'm inclined to agree with you on point 1. Water is the norm for baptism but baptism by desire is possible.

Not on point 2 though. I belive they are the same thing. How does one become born again in your opinion? I accept Jesus as my Lord and Saviour but I don't believe this is being born again. That's what baptism is for.

Peace,
Noel.

Zombrex

kelly1 wrote: »

Our salvation depends on the state of our soul at the moment you die. If you die in a state of grace you are then saved, otherwise you're damned. It's that simple.

I said that ages ago but no one listened to me because I'm an atheist

BrianCalgary

kelly1 wrote: »

I'm inclined to agree with you on point 1. Water is the norm for baptism but baptism by desire is possible.

Not on point 2 though. I belive they are the same thing. How does one become born again in your opinion? I accept Jesus as my Lord and Saviour but I don't believe this is being born again. That's what baptism is for.

Peace,
Noel.

I used to have the same understnding as you on point 2 Noel. I was baptised as an infant and thought that was it, especially after making confirmation.

However when I was baptised as an adult about 7 years ago, the Holy Spirit came upon me. So I was born again of water and teh Holy Spirit at that time.

Since then spiritual life and ministry life has been quite amazing.

kelly1

Not sure.

BrianCalgary wrote: »

I used to have the same understnding as you on point 2 Noel. I was baptised as an infant and thought that was it, especially after making confirmation.

However when I was baptised as an adult about 7 years ago, the Holy Spirit came upon me. So I was born again of water and teh Holy Spirit at that time.

Since then spiritual life and ministry life has been quite amazing.

I'm still not clear on this. Are you equating baptism with being born again or are they separate events? If they are separate, how is one "born again"?

JimiTime

kelly1 wrote: »

Thanks Jimi, you saved me the trouble

Dangers of private interpretation again...

'Dangers'. Such fear Noel. What is it you are afraid of?

BrianCalgary

kelly1 wrote: »

I'm still not clear on this. Are you equating baptism with being born again or are they separate events? If they are separate, how is one "born again"?

Equating them. Jesus said that you have to be born again of water and the Holy Spirit.

When Jesus was baptised He was baptised with water and teh Holy Spirit descended on Him.

As with us, when we are baptised with water the Holy Spirit comes upon us. We are then born again. We have come out of the water, as a birth and the Holy Spirit then comes on us.

kelly1

Not sure.

BrianCalgary wrote: »

Equating them. Jesus said that you have to be born again of water and the Holy Spirit.

When Jesus was baptised He was baptised with water and teh Holy Spirit descended on Him.

As with us, when we are baptised with water the Holy Spirit comes upon us. We are then born again. We have come out of the water, as a birth and the Holy Spirit then comes on us.

clearly RTDH doesn't equate baptism with being born again as you can see from what he wrote:

You MUST be a born-again Christian
You MUST be born again in spirit, baptism is merely a symbol
Getting baptized won't give you the new birth.
What is baptism then? It is something God wants us to do AFTER we accept Jesus Christ as our Saviour.
baptism is merely a symbol one partakes after they are saved

So my question is this: If being born again means accepting Jesus as Lord and Saviour, am I and every other Christian not therefore born again according to RTDH?

So why must I be "a Born-again Christian" instead of a Catholic or Evangelical etc?

BrianCalgary

kelly1 wrote: »

So my question is this: If being born again means accepting Jesus as Lord and Saviour, am I and every other Christian not therefore born again according to RTDH?

So why must I be "a Born-again Christian" instead of a Catholic or Evangelical etc?

I never liked the term 'born-again Christian', It's redundant. If I'm a Christian I have been born again and if I have been reborn, it makes me a Christian.

You can be a Christian without Baptism. You can be saved without Baptism. Salvation comes form a personal decision to turn your life over to Jesus and to accept God's gift of grace.

After this personal act, it should be followed up by an act of obedience, which is the public act of Baptism to show your intentions of a life in Christ.

I consider myself a Christian who goes to an Alliance church, and sometimes Baptist Church and less often Anglican and Catholic. I consider all those who profess Christ as brothers and sisters regardless of denomination.

I don't like the term Protestant, because I am not protesting anything, I am proclaiming Christ as Lord.

Make sense?

kelly1

Not sure.

BrianCalgary wrote: »

You can be a Christian without Baptism.

I wouldn't entirely concur on that point because according to catholic theology nobody is born with sanctifying grace (except Jesus and Mary). Baptism being a sacrament erases original sin and gives the soul grace. Until we are baptised, we're neither God's children nor members of Christ's Body. You can't claim to follow Christ and not be baptised because this would go against God's will.

J C

Those that believe "once saved always saved" is a false docterine.

Kelly1
I'm still not clear on this. Are you equating baptism with being born again or are they separate events? If they are separate, how is one "born again"?
Originally Posted by kelly1
5 Jesus answered: Amen, amen I say to thee, unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God..

The KJV of Jn 3:5 says Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

The term ‘born again’ is ACTUALLY used by Jesus in Jn 3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
…… so what does it mean to be born again?

As I have said, this term first appears in the Bible in John chapter three ...
"There was a man of the Pharisees, named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews: The same came to Jesus by night, and said unto him, Rabbi, we know that thou art a teacher come from God: for no man can do these miracles that thou doest, except God be with him. Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God. Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born? Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again." -John 3:1-7

To understand this Biblical term, it is necessary to understand that there are TWO BIRTHS.
The "first" birth is the PHYSICAL BIRTH when you were born into this world from your mother and father. When the Bible speaks of being "born of water," it is speaking about physical conception and birth in water (NOT baptism).
The "second" birth is a SPIRITUAL BIRTH, which means to be born of the "Spirit" (God's Holy Spirit).
Jesus confirms the nature of the two births in Jn 3:6 when He says that flesh is born of flesh and spirit is born of spirit.

This raises a couple of questions: Why does a person need to be born spiritually?...and, What is a "spiritual" birth?
The Bible teaches that man is created in the image of God. God manifests Himself to mankind in the Persons of God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit. Likewise, mankind is composed of a body, soul, and spirit. Our body is the "tent" (i.e. the body is a temporary dwelling place) of the soul and the spirit.
Our soul is composed of the heart (to feel), the mind (to think), and the will (to decide).
Our spirit is dead in sin when we are born; that is, we are born devoid of God.
No person is ever born with God. The only exception is the Lord Jesus Christ Who came as God in the flesh (1st Timothy 3:16). Our spirit is dead in trespasses and sin the Bible says...
"And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins; Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:" -Ephesians 2:1,2

The unsaved person cannot understand God...
"But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned." -1st Corinthians 2:14

The reason why you need to be "spiritually" born is because you have never been spiritually born to begin with. So when the Bible speaks of being "born again," it actually means "born for the second time." You were born physically into this world, but you were born without the Spirit of God in your soul (spiritually dead).

Yes, God created you, but He gave you a free will to decide for yourself where you will spend eternity. God never forces anyone to accept Christ as their Savior, He simply offers a warm invitation to anyone who wants to have their sins forgiven and go to Heaven.
Salvation is a free gift (Romans 5:15), paid for by the precious blood of Jesus Christ (1st Peter 1:18,19). We must accept God's gift of eternal life or it WILL be forever forfeited when we leave this world (die).
To be "spiritually" born means that God's Holy Spirit "quickens" (or makes alive) your dead spirit. When you believe on the Lord Jesus Christ as your Savior, trusting Him alone to forgive all your sins--then God the Father and God the Son come into your heart in the form of God the Holy Spirit (John 14:23). The "Holy Spirit" is "God within us."

I have God living in my soul as the Holy Spirit of God. I am not God, but I have God living in my body. The Godhead indwells every believer. The Holy Spirit of God guides me, comforts me, teaches me, rebukes me, chastises me, convicts me, encourages me, empowers me, loves me, strengthens me, and so much more. The Holy Spirit uses the Word of God to do these things.

A person cannot understand the Bible without the presence of the Author, and God is the Author. When you become born again (or born for the second time), God's Holy Spirit comes into your body (1st Corinthians 3:16), never to leave (Hebrews 13:5), and you will understand many new things for the first time in your life...
"Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new." -2nd Corinthians 5:17

It is ONLY through the Precious Word of God that anyone can be born-again. Surely, no one can born into this world again physically... there is no turning back the hands of time. However, you most certainly can be born again spiritually into God's family through the Spirit of Christ... "But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his" (Romans 8:9). The way we become "born again" is found in the Word of God...

"Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever." -1st Peter 1:23
We are born again by the Word of God. Jesus is the Word of God (John 1:1,14: Revelation 19:13).

If you don't receive Jesus Christ and become a born again Christian, then you will end in Hell for all eternity (John 3:18, 36; Revelation 20:15; 21:8).

The GOOD NEWS (the Gospel) is that it is very EASY to have the second birth, i.e., a spiritual birth. God came down to this earth 2,000 years ago and took upon Himself the form of a man. That man was the Lord Jesus Christ (John 1:1,14; 1st Timothy 3:16). Literally, the GODHEAD became incarnate (Colossians 2:9--King James Bible). Jesus was born of a virgin (Isaiah 7:14). Jesus never sinned once (2nd Corinthians 5:21). Jesus died, was buried and rose again after three days (1st Corinthians 15:1-4). Jesus shed His blood to pay for all our sins (Colossians 1:14; 1st Peter 1:18,19), and applied that blood to the Mercy Seat in Heaven (Hebrews 9:24-26).

There are a few things you must accept to be saved:
1. You are a sinner under the condemnation of God's Law (Romans 3:10,23).

2. You are GUILTY, and deserve to go to Hell as punishment for your sins (Romans 3:19; 6:23; Revelation 21:8).

3. Jesus Christ, God in the flesh (God's Son), died upon the cross to pay for your sins (John 3:16-18; Romans 5:8). It is Jesus' blood that takes our sins away (1st John 1:7).

If you believe that Jesus is the Savior (the Christ) who paid for your sins, and you realize your sinful condition (and thus your need for a Savior), then you're ready to be born again.
All you need to do is repent (i.e., turn) to Jesus Christ in faith, believing upon Him to forgive your sins and save you... "Testifying both to the Jews, and also to the Greeks, repentance toward God, and faith toward our Lord Jesus Christ."
You may pray if you'd like, but you don't have to. Salvation is of the heart (Romans 10:10). If you'd like to pray, simply ask Jesus to forgive your sins and tell Him that you're trusting Him as your Savior. It matters not exactly what you pray, just as long as you realize these two main truths:
1. You are a guilty sinner under the condemnation of God's Law!
2. Jesus is the Savior who shed His blood to take away your sins!

You might pray something like this...
Dear Jesus, I know that I am a sinner. I believe that you are the Son of God, the Savior, who shed your blood to pay for my sins. I now believe upon You as my personal Savior, and ask you to please forgive me of all my sins. Please save me and take me to Heaven when I die. Amen.

If you sincerely asked Jesus to forgive your sins, then you are now part of God's family. You could have just prayed, "God be merciful to me a sinner." The thief on the cross simply asked Jesus to "remember" him, and Jesus most certainly did. There is nothing "magic" about the words you pray, it is your faith (trust) in Jesus Christ that saves you. It is your faith that causes you to call upon Jesus to forgive your sins and take you to Heaven. God wants to save you more than you could ever want to be saved (2nd Peter 3:9). If you were sincere, then you are now a born-again Christian.

kelly1

Not sure.

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

There are many "Born again Christians" that chose to remain in the Catholic Church after they committed their lives others like myself have chosen to leave it. Paddy Monaghan would be an example of one who decided to remain in the RC, He would be one of those responsible for introducing the Alpha Courses to the Catholic Church. http://www.alphacourse.ie/alphainireland.htm.

OK, but what makes me (a Catholic) not "born again"?

Run_to_da_hills

Not sure.

There are many "Born again Christians" that chose to remain in the Catholic Church after they committed their lives to Christ even many of the Clergy others like myself have chosen to leave it. Paddy Monaghan would be an example of one who decided to remain in it and help out with setting up the Alpha Courses. http://www.alphacourse.ie/alphainireland.htm.

Run_to_da_hills

Not sure.

kelly1 wrote: »

OK, but what makes me (a Catholic) not "born again"?

A devout Catholic will put his full trust for salvation in the teachings of the Catholic Church and accept the docterines that come from the Vatican as his soul sourse of inspiration.

A Born again Christian will accept Jesus Christ as his personal lord and saviour and committ his life to Christ and accept the "word of God" as his soul sourse of inspiration.

J C

Those that believe "once saved always saved" is a false docterine.

kelly1 wrote: »

clearly RTDH doesn't equate baptism with being born again as you can see from what he wrote:



So my question is this: If being born again means accepting Jesus as Lord and Saviour, am I and every other Christian not therefore born again according to RTDH?

So why must I be "a Born-again Christian" instead of a Catholic or Evangelical etc?

If you have believed on Jesus Christ (and Him alone) as your Lord and Savour...then you ARE saved...... whatever your denomination......and I know born again Christians who had been members of all faiths and none!!!:D

Some remain within the various denominations ......countering error and witnessing for Jesus!!!

Run_to_da_hills

Not sure.

J C wrote: »

Originally Posted by J C
All sin leads to physical death....which entered the World originally through sin!!! unchecked sin leads to accelerated physical death

Run to da hills
So you think that just because you are a Christian that you are going to out live some guy down the road that is running an adult shop or a brottle?

No, I said that ALL unchecked sin (whether in a saved Christian or in an unsaved person), WILL hasten death.

You can still be a professed Christian and be flattened by a bus crossing the road tomarrow.

J C wrote: »

It may be uncomfortable for the legalists amongst us to accept that Christians have licence to sin, by way of consolation, could I say that, in general, Christians DON’T use their licence to live sinfully, because they prefer to live by the Word of God and they have the Holy Spirit indwelling them as their adviser and guide to help them to do so!!!.

You obviously have never experienced backsliding yourself nor I doubt you have ever tried to encouraage those back that have fallen away, I have. It is often more difficult for a back slider to return to his faith in the lord than it is for a new convert because the backslider ends up in a worse condition than before he was saved. Read the following from Matthew 12, 43 to 45

"When the unclean spirit is gone out of a man, he walketh through dry places, seeking rest, and findeth none. Then he saith, I will return into my house from whence I came out; and when he is come, he findeth it empty, swept, and garnished. Then goeth he, and taketh with himself seven other spirits more wicked than himself, and they enter in and dwell there: and the last state of that man is worse than the first. Even so shall it be also unto this wicked generation. Matthew 12, 43 to 45.

And dont tell me that this passage is in reference to the Unsaved.

J C wrote: »

The saved live by the Word of God because they BELIEVE on Him and LOVE Himand NOT because they are terrified of any eternal consequences if they don’t.

The bible is saturated with warnings about falling away. I am not going to repeat myself as I have mentioned them throughout this thread, Ie. "Unprofitable servant", "For some have already turned aside after Satan"

Re the office of a Bishop, "not a novice, lest being puffed up with pride he fall into the same condemnation as the devil". 1 Timothy 3:6

"Beware, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief in departing from the living God". Hebrews 3:12,13

"Again what part of Hebrews 6:4-6 do you not understand? ""For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, if they fall away, to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to an open shame"

J C wrote: »

[
The unsaved don’t live by the Word of God because they DON’T believe on Him or accept Him.

I agree with you 100% here, The Unsaved do not understand the message of salvation. St Paul writes in Corinthians, "For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God".

J C wrote: »

The ‘parable of the sower’ illustrates the reactions of various people upon hearing the Word of God …..and it doesn’t directly address the issue of salvation at all. .

It talks about those that were saved and were again lost it due worldy circumstances and not getting themselves rooted in the word of God.

J C wrote: »

ALL items on the list are sinful…..and both the saved and the unsaved are CAPABLE of committing them……but as I have said the Christian tends NOT to do so…..and there would be a major question mark over the bona fides of anybody claiming to have believed on Jesus Christ who didn’t live by His Word.

"but as I have said the Christian tends NOT to do so" BUT THEY CAN DO BECAUSE OF THEIR FLESHY HUMAN NATURE", I was a backslider for over 10 years of my life, I ended up on the piss regularly, stole from work, dealt in dope and bootleg xxx movies, If I had died during that space of time I know for a fact that Iwould have been danmed to hell for eternity!!!!. But according to your religion all that would have been fine with God and I would be welcome into Heaven. (According to Noel I would be stuck in Purgatory ).

I can only thank such a wonderful God for accepting me back into his family again.

I find that most of those that believe in the OSAS docterine are usually interpreting from a distorted or a perverted Bible.

This event took place in Old Testament times BEFORE salvation was possible and EVERYONE was under God’s Law and NOBODY was under His Grace……and God exacted judgement for David’s sin on His CHILD….under the Law which states that God will exact judgement up to the fourth generation of those who sin against Him.

J C wrote: »

OK so you BOTH agree that salvation is by ‘works’….and not by ‘faith’…..and Kelly follows his ‘works-based’ position to it's ultimate logic, with a ‘works-based’ purging of unrepented sin after the person dies as well.

There is stark contrast between Noels version of "works" within the Roman Catholic Religion and that of a Christian enduring in his faith with Christ to the end.

J C wrote: »

My burden is light, says the Lord!!!!

I cannot dispute you on this one.

wolfsbane

Those that believe "once saved always saved" is a false docterine.

Run_to_da_hills asks JC:

Again what part of Hebrews 6:4-6 do you not understand? ""For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, if they fall away, to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to an open shame"

Let me just remind you what this text actually says: For it is impossible for those...if they fall away, to renew them again to repentance....

Seeing you have been renewed to repentance, this text is not speaking of backsliding believers. It is speaking of unbelievers in heart who have come to such a realization of the truth that they consciously know it to be true, yet still turn away.

Run_to_da_hills

Not sure.

wolfsbane wrote: »

Run_to_da_hills asks JC:

Let me just remind you what this text actually says: For it is impossible for those...if they fall away, to renew them again to repentance....

Seeing you have been renewed to repentance, this text is not speaking of backsliding believers. It is speaking of unbelievers in heart who have come to such a realization of the truth that they consciously know it to be true, yet still turn away.

What are you talking about!!! Unbelievers have never received the Holy Spirit so how can you say they realise any truth?. Unbelievers have never come to know the truth at all!

The "Heavenly Gift" is the experience one gets when they become a new convert. I can remember well the exact time and date that I became to know the Lord. I can also remember the time both my elderly parents came Christian after spending nearly 60 years in the Catholic Church, my father was so excited at the time he tried to convert the family.

I have listed several Bible translations of the same verse.

GOD'S WORD Translation
Some people once had God's light. They experienced the heavenly gift and shared in the Holy Spirit.

King James Bible
For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,

American Standard Version
For as touching those who were once enlightened and tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Spirit,

Douay-Rheims Bible
For it is impossible for those who were once illuminated, have tasted also the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,

English Revised Version
For as touching those who were once enlightened and tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,

Tyndale New Testament
For it is not possible that they, which were once lighted, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were become parttakers of the holy ghost,

wolfsbane

Those that believe "once saved always saved" is a false docterine.

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

What are you talking about!!! Unbelievers have never received the Holy Spirit so how can you say they realise any truth?. Unbelievers have never come to know the truth at all!

The "Heavenly Gift" is the experience one gets when they become a new convert. I can remember well the exact time and date that I became to know the Lord. I can also remember the time both my elderly parents came Christian after spending nearly 60 years in the Catholic Church, my father was so excited at the time he tried to convert the family.

I have listed several Bible translations of the same verse.

GOD'S WORD Translation
Some people once had God's light. They experienced the heavenly gift and shared in the Holy Spirit.

King James Bible
For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,

American Standard Version
For as touching those who were once enlightened and tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Spirit,

Douay-Rheims Bible
For it is impossible for those who were once illuminated, have tasted also the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,

English Revised Version
For as touching those who were once enlightened and tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,

Tyndale New Testament
For it is not possible that they, which were once lighted, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were become parttakers of the holy ghost,

I'll be happy to deal with the work of the Holy Spirit in the lost at a later time, but the real question you must answer if you believe this text speaks of believers is this:
How can you say you have returned to the Lord, when it says it is impossible for those who fall away to return?

Run_to_da_hills

Not sure.

wolfsbane wrote: »

I'll be happy to deal with the work of the Holy Spirit in the lost at a later time, but the real question you must answer if you believe this text speaks of believers is this:
How can you say you have returned to the Lord, when it says it is impossible for those who fall away to return?

A person is saved once, they cannot be "saved again" . A person can forsake and forget God but God will always welcome that person back if he repents, 1John 1vs9 is one verse every professed Christian should have off by heart. "If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us [our] sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness".

Also john 5vs37 "All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out". john 5vs37

Prodigal Son parable. http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Luke%2015:11-32;&version=9;

keano_afc

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

A person is saved once, they cannot be "saved again" . A person can forsake and forget God but God will always welcome that person back if he repents, 1John 1vs9 is one verse every professed Christian should have off by heart. "If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us [our] sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness".

Also john 5vs37 "All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out". john 5vs37

Prodigal Son parable. http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Luke%2015:11-32;&version=9;

But if a christian can lose their salvation, as you believe, how do they get it back?? Logic dictates if one where to "lose their salvation", it is gone and they need to be saved again. No?

Run_to_da_hills

Not sure.

keano_afc wrote: »

But if a christian can lose their salvation, as you believe, how do they get it back??

By repenting and ask God for forgiveness. Repent dose not simply mean saying "Im sorry" in a confessional and then repeating several "Hail Marys". Repenting is a solemn commitment that you are willing to turn back to Christ and asking him back into your life again, It means a willingness to give up all those things that you know are distancing you from God, whether it be dishonesty, getting drunk, cursing, sexual immorality. When I decided return to my faith I started Bible readiing, fellowshiping with other Christians and attending Church after over 10 years of lapse.

keano_afc wrote: »

Logic dictates if one where to "lose their salvation", it is gone and they need to be saved again. No?

Technically you could call it being "saved again", because you are infact being "saved" from eternal danmnation. You are "saved" once when you made that initial call, anything after that you could call it coming back to him.

keano_afc

Do you believe you first "conversion", so to speak was genuine? I have trouble believing that salvation can be lost. My opinion, as I have stated, is that a christian who professes faith in Christ but transcends to a life that doesnt change is not genuinely saved. How many sins, numerically, does it take to lose ones salvation?

Run_to_da_hills

Not sure.

keano_afc wrote: »

Do you believe you first "conversion", so to speak was genuine? I have trouble believing that salvation can be lost. My opinion, as I have stated, is that a christian who professes faith in Christ but transcends to a life that doesnt change is not genuinely saved. How many sins, numerically, does it take to lose ones salvation?

Absolutly. I became a Born again believer on 26th January 1986, I received the spirit that night.

It depends entirely on the person, some people who brought up in Christian surroundings that have a firm rooting in the word of God have no problems holding on to their faith.
Others like myself who was surrounded in a non practicing "Christian" enviornment with family, relations, friends, work mates etc it is more difficult.

I don't think God is counting up the number of sins and saying, "One more and hes danmed". Its more of a case of pushing Christ totally out of your life and letting satan take over again.

Luke 13 6 to 9 would describe someone like myself who had made that comittment to Christ but laid dormant about it for several years. The Parable also shows us that God will not give up easily on that person.

"Then he told this parable: A man had a fig-tree, planted in his vineyard, and he went to look for fruit on it, but did not find any. So he said to the man who took care of the vineyard, 'For three years now I've been coming to look for fruit on this fig-tree and haven't found any. Cut it down! Why should it use up the soil?' 'Sir,' the man replied, 'leave it alone for one more year, and I'll dig round it and fertilise it. If it bears fruit next year, fine! If not, then cut it down." Luke 13 6 to 9

wolfsbane

Those that believe "once saved always saved" is a false docterine.

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

A person is saved once, they cannot be "saved again" . A person can forsake and forget God but God will always welcome that person back if he repents, 1John 1vs9 is one verse every professed Christian should have off by heart. "If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us [our] sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness".

Also john 5vs37 "All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out". john 5vs37

Prodigal Son parable. http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Luke%2015:11-32;&version=9;

I agree with your understanding of those texts. My question to you was about the Hebrews 6 passage, which you used to suggest a true believer can fall away from the faith. That passage tells us that it is IMPOSSIBLE for those who fall away to come to repentance.

Either Hebrews 6 is wrong or you are forever lost - if your interpretation stands. But the good news is Hebrews 6 is true and backsliding Christians will be brought to repentance - because they do not fall away, even when they fall into sin. The Good shepherd keeps His sheep, causing the erring ones to return.

Run_to_da_hills

Not sure.

wolfsbane wrote: »

Either Hebrews 6 is wrong or you are forever lost - if your interpretation stands. But the good news is Hebrews 6 is true and backsliding Christians will be brought to repentance - because they do not fall away, even when they fall into sin. The Good shepherd keeps His sheep, causing the erring ones to return.

I would agree with you on that one, that our lord will use any circumstance to get a person to repent and turn back, he certainly did it with me. I wouldn't put our lord to the test on it though I would be on the safe side.

J C

Those that believe "once saved always saved" is a false docterine.

Originally Posted by Run to da hills
So you think that just because you are a Christian that you are going to out live some guy down the road that is running an adult shop or a brottle?
Originally Posted by J C
No, I said that ALL unchecked sin (whether in a saved Christian or in an unsaved person), WILL hasten death.

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

You can still be a professed Christian and be flattened by a bus crossing the road tomorrow.

That is PRECISELY my point …….. that BOTH Christians and the unsaved are in sinful bodies and they therefore ALL die….some younger, others older…….. with unchecked sin hastening physical deterioration and death in BOTH Christians and the unsaved!!!
So, death comes to everybody........but it can be hastened by sin!!


Originally Posted by J C
It may be uncomfortable for the legalists amongst us to accept that Christians have licence to sin.......however, by way of consolation, could I say that, in general, Christians DON’T use their licence to live sinfully, because they prefer to live by the Word of God and they have the Holy Spirit indwelling them as their adviser and guide to help them to do so!!!.

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

You obviously have never experienced backsliding yourself nor I doubt you have ever tried to encouraage those back that have fallen away, I have. It is often more difficult for a back slider to return to his faith in the lord than it is for a new convert because the backslider ends up in a worse condition than before he was saved.

IF the person you refer to was ever saved and has simply ‘backslidden’ they would instantly respond to your admonishment.
However, IF the ‘backslider’ was never saved……and they had actually REJECTED salvation originally……then it may actually be IMPOSSIBLE to save them.
Jesus has confirmed this in Mk 6:11 "And whosoever shall not receive you, nor hear you, when ye depart thence, shake off the dust under your feet for a testimony against them. Verily I say unto you, It shall be more tolerable for Sodom and Gomorrha in the day of judgment, than for that city."

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

Read the following from Matthew 12, 43 to 45

"When the unclean spirit is gone out of a man, he walketh through dry places, seeking rest, and findeth none. Then he saith, I will return into my house from whence I came out; and when he is come, he findeth it empty, swept, and garnished. Then goeth he, and taketh with himself seven other spirits more wicked than himself, and they enter in and dwell there: and the last state of that man is worse than the first. Even so shall it be also unto this wicked generation. Matthew 12, 43 to 45.

And dont tell me that this passage is in reference to the Unsaved.

OK, so what have we got here?
……a parable about a man who was formerly POSSESSED by ONE evil spirit ……..who is STILL receptive to being repossessed ……and who ends up being possessed by EIGHT evil spirits.

I think that we can safely conclude that such a person WASN’T saved!!!

The fact that the man was possessed certainly indicates that he WASN'T saved......and the fact that he CONTINUES to be unsaved is confirmed by the unopposed return of the unclean spirit and seven others to it's host!!!!!:)


Originally Posted by J C
The saved live by the Word of God because they BELIEVE on Him and LOVE Him and NOT because they are terrified of any eternal consequences if they don’t.

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

The bible is saturated with warnings about falling away. I am not going to repeat myself as I have mentioned them throughout this thread, Ie. "Unprofitable servant", "For some have already turned aside after Satan"

The New Testament is saturated with warnings to Christians to resist sin and to not give scandal to their fellow believers and the unsaved. It is also replete with warnings to the unsaved about the necessity to be saved…….but it doesn’t suggest that the saved can be lost!!

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

Re the office of a Bishop, "not a novice, lest being puffed up with pride he fall into the same condemnation as the devil". 1 Timothy 3:6

This proves that the saved may fall into sin…….but it doesn’t indicate that they will lose their salvation because of sin.

Paul warns Timothy that a novice may have so much pride that HIS CONGREGATION may reject/condemn him as bishop, just like THEY reject/condemn the devil for the same vice.
The spiritual states of the saved and the devil are not comparable……the devil is eternally and irrevocably condemned while the saved are eternally and irrevocably saved!!!!

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

"Beware, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief in departing from the living God". Hebrews 3:12,13

Given that Christians ARE saved by faith in Jesus Christ.......somebody with an "evil heart of unbelief in departing from the living God".....is most assuredly NOT saved!!!


Originally Posted by J C
The ‘parable of the sower’ illustrates the reactions of various people upon hearing the Word of God …..and it doesn’t directly address the issue of salvation at all.

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

It talks about those that were saved and were again lost it due worldy circumstances and not getting themselves rooted in the word of God.

The ‘parable of the sower’ illustrates the reactions of various people upon hearing the Word of God …..and it doesn’t directly address the issue of salvation at all.

The reactions varied from outright hostility, to superficial enthusiasm, to full acceptance and belief……and the only ‘seed’ that ultimately lived was the seed that fell on deep fertile (fully accepting) ‘ground’!!!!

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

I agree with you 100% here, The Unsaved do not understand the message of salvation. St Paul writes in Corinthians, "For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God".

.....and I also agree with you 100% on this one!!!

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

I was a backslider for over 10 years of my life, I ended up on the piss regularly, stole from work, dealt in dope and bootleg xxx movies, If I had died during that space of time I know for a fact that Iwould have been danmed to hell for eternity!!!!.

.......hmm.....your belief that you would have been damned to hell for eternity......would indicate that you WEREN'T saved at the time....and if you weren't saved.......then you weren't backsliding either!!!

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

But according to your religion all that would have been fine with God and I would be welcome into Heaven. (According to Noel I would be stuck in Purgatory ).

God hates the sin ..... but loves the sinner.....so sinful behaviour is not 'fine with God'.......but He came to save sinners......and ALL that He asks is that we repent and believe on Him!!!!

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

There is stark contrast between Noels version of "works" within the Roman Catholic Religion and that of a Christian enduring in his faith with Christ to the end.

......it all depends on what you mean by 'enduring'!!!

If the person's salvation remains 'in doubt' until the end ..........by being dependent on their state of sin at death.......What is the difference (with Noel's version of 'works')??


......and BTW what happened the 'Purgatory' thread??

Run_to_da_hills

Not sure.

J C wrote: »

Yes, death comes to everybody........but it can be hastened by sin!! :

I agree with you that sin can hasten death, such as smoking, alcohol and drug abuse but having said that I would not say that because I am a Christian Im immuned from terminal illness or accidents.

J C wrote: »

The fact that the man was possessed certainly indicates that he WASN'T saved......and this is confirmed by the unopposed return of the unclean spirit and seven others to it's host!!!!!:):

He was saved, Satan was cast out of him, He mind was now clear but rather than do the right thing by following Christ he abandoned God by returning to his old vomit and gave satan a legal right to return along with seven other evil spirits and the person was worse off than before he was saved. http://www.bible-knowledge.com/Interpretation-of-Matthew-12-45.html

J C wrote: »

Paul warns Timothy that a novice may have so much pride that HIS CONGREGATION may reject/condemn him as bishop, just like THEY reject/condemn the devil for the same vice.

I can see logic in this one, the office of a Bishop is very important and involves committment and dicipline, a novice is not grounded in the word of God thus there is a great danger that he could refuse to be humiliated and preach false docterine and send souls to hell along with himself.

J C wrote: »

The spiritual states of the saved and the devil are not comparable……the devil is eternally and irrevocably condemned while the saved are eternally and irrevocably saved. Given that Christians ARE saved by faith in Jesus Christ.......somebody with an "evil heart of unbelief in departing from the living God".....is most assuredly NOT saved!!! :

Its called backsliding and can happen to any professed Christian if they neglect the word of god and fellowship with other Christians. Best way to describe it would be taking a red hot coal out of the fire, it will eventually become cold and useless.

J C wrote: »

.hmm.....your belief that you would have been damned to hell for eternity......would indicate that you WEREN'T saved at the time....and if you weren't saved.......then you weren't backsliding either!!!:

Nope a person knows well when they first give their lives to the lord, they are given that assurance. I knew well the first time, I have falled several times and have come back and been welcomed back, God forbid if I fall back into sin and die in that state, I would be worse off than the unsaved on Judgement day. Its like the Parable of the virgins with the lamps lamps, those who were unprepared and ran out of oil were locked out. Matthew 25.

J C wrote: »

God hates the sin ..... but loves the sinner.....so sinful behaviour is not 'fine with God'.......so He came to save sinners......and ALL that He asks is that we repent and believe on Him!!!!

I agree with you here, Christ died for our past sins before we were saved, and our future sins provided we still remain in him. If not we are cast out and burnt, IE. The parable of the vine John 15:1-27

There is stark contrast between Noels version of "works" within the Roman Catholic Religion and that of a Christian enduring in his faith with Christ to the end.

J C wrote: »

What is the difference??

A Christian is saved by faith and from reading James shows us that works are intimately tied in with faith and obedience. Titus 3:5 makes clear that we cannot be saved by works, "Not by works of righteousness."

Catholics are also required to keep the seven-sacraments to go to Heaven. These sacraments include being confirmed by the Bishop, regular confession to the priest, regular observance of the Holy Eucharist with the priest, last rites by the priest, etc. The Catholic means of salvation; therefore, weighs heavily upon the Catholic priest. Catholics are also required to do good works to go to Heaven. The average Catholic admit that they're trusting in FAITH AND WORKS to save them (which Romans 11:6 states is impossible)."But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works, otherwise grace is no longer grace". Romans 11 6

Romans 4:5 states in no uncertain terms, "But to him that worketh not, yet believeth in him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is reputed to justice, according to the purpose of the grace of God"

SubjectSean

keano_afc wrote: »

My opinion, as I have stated, is that a christian who professes faith in Christ but transcends to a life that doesnt change is not genuinely saved.

+1

J C

Those that believe "once saved always saved" is a false docterine.

Originally Posted by keano_afc
My opinion, as I have stated, is that a christian who professes faith in Christ but transcends to a life that doesnt change is not genuinely saved.

SubjectSean wrote: »

+1

+2 !!:D

J C

Those that believe "once saved always saved" is a false docterine.

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

I agree with you that sin can hasten death, such as smoking, alcohol and drug abuse but having said that I would not say that because I am a Christian Im immuned from terminal illness or accidents.

Read my postings again......and you will find that I am in full agreement with you on this one!!!

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

He was saved, Satan was cast out of him, He mind was now clear but rather than do the right thing by following Christ he abandoned God by returning to his old vomit and gave satan a legal right to return along with seven other evil spirits and the person was worse off than before he was saved. http://www.bible-knowledge.com/Interpretation-of-Matthew-12-45.html

Somebody who is freed from demonic possession is NOT saved......they must freely believe on Jesus Christ to be saved.

The fact that the returning demon found the man 'empty'......means that he wasn't saved......if he had been saved, he would have been 'occupied'.....by the Holy Spirit!!!

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

I can see logic in this one, the office of a Bishop is very important and involves committment and dicipline, a novice is not grounded in the word of God thus there is a great danger that he could refuse to be humiliated and preach false docterine and send souls to hell along with himself.
Its called backsliding and can happen to any professed Christian if they neglect the word of god and fellowship with other Christians. Best way to describe it would be taking a red hot coal out of the fire, it will eventually become cold and useless.

You are correct.....but none of this means that the saved must be 're-saved' every time they sin!!!

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

Christ died for our past sins before we were saved, and our future sins provided we still remain in him. If not we are cast out and burnt, IE. The parable of the vine John 15:1-27

We are unconditionally save by God's Grace......and the parable of the vine is about people who refuse to be saved and bear fruit for God!!!

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

There is stark contrast between Noels version of "works" within the Roman Catholic Religion and that of a Christian enduring in his faith with Christ to the end.
A Christian is saved by faith and from reading James shows us that works are intimately tied in with faith and obedience. Titus 3:5 makes clear that we cannot be saved by works, "Not by works of righteousness."

If we cannot be saved by 'works'.......then how can we be 'unsaved' or indeed 'resaved' by 'works' either?

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

Catholics are also required to keep the seven-sacraments to go to Heaven. These sacraments include being confirmed by the Bishop, regular confession to the priest, regular observance of the Holy Eucharist with the priest, last rites by the priest, etc. The Catholic means of salvation; therefore, weighs heavily upon the Catholic priest. Catholics are also required to do good works to go to Heaven. The average Catholic admit that they're trusting in FAITH AND WORKS to save them (which Romans 11:6 states is impossible)."But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works, otherwise grace is no longer grace". Romans 11 6

Romans 4:5 states in no uncertain terms, "But to him that worketh not, yet believeth in him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is reputed to justice, according to the purpose of the grace of God"

Romans 4:5 indicates that God will deal with saved Christians who lead sinful lives.......with punishment up to death........"according to the purpose of the grace of God"........but He will not 'unsave' them!!

Run_to_da_hills

Not sure.

J C wrote: »

Read my postings again......and you will find that I am in full agreement with you on this one!!!


Somebody who is freed from demonic possession is NOT saved......they must freely believe on Jesus Christ to be saved.

The fact that the returning demon found the man 'empty'......means that he wasn't saved......if he had been saved, he would have been 'occupied'.....by the Holy Spirit!!!!!

There is nowhere in Scripture that says the Holy Spirit cannot be present with evil. This kind of idea is without biblical merit and is, in fact, a denigration of the power of God. The Almighty Spirit of God that created ALL beings has total control and dominion over good and evil. It is up to us as believers to believe (continuous tense) in Jesus Christ and to persevere and overcome.

J C wrote: »

You are correct.....but none of this means that the saved must be 're-saved' every time they sin!!! Confessing your sins and walking in Christ
is not being saved again and again,
We are unconditionally save by God's Grace.and the parable of the vine is about people who refuse to be saved and bear fruit for God!!!!!

That Parable was absolutly meaningless to me until I first became a Christian, It even began to mean more to me when I backslid completly and got involved premoting the Devils music and living his lifestyle. It was when I came back to the lord after many years that I realised the full meaning of this parable. This about those that are initially saved but decide not to continue with the walk in Christ and fall back into sin and the world, they become unprofitable and are cut off from their relationship with Christ. However they can be "grafted back" as mentioned several times in scripture. "Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be graffed in". Romans 11 vs 19.

J C wrote: »

Romans 4:5 indicates that God will deal with saved Christians who lead sinful lives.......with punishment up to death........"according to the purpose of the grace of God"........but He will not 'unsave' them!!

I believe in a just God. What I would call an unjust God would be a "two faced God" ie one that would punish the unsaved more than the saved for committing the same same sins. An example of this would be a "Bornagain" believer who backslid completly and committed adultary or fell back to become a cumpulsive liar or a thief. I believe he should be more accountible for this than the an unsaved for committing the same offense which is punishible by hell fire. I believe those that are saved are going to be even more scrutinized because they know the truth and the difference between good and evil. The unsaved do not have this ability because they have never experienced the truth. Jesus said the road that leadeth unto live is "narrow" and only those that endureth to the end will be saved. I believe it that way.

On a different note, we both believe that the forbidden mark is coming, do you believe that if someone who was initially saved and took it would be still be saved? This would rule out the docterine of OSAS. I believe many christians will give in to this because of its worldly convenience and the pressure to take it.

J C

Those that believe "once saved always saved" is a false docterine.

Originally Posted by J C
Somebody who is freed from demonic possession is NOT saved......they must freely believe on Jesus Christ to be saved.
The fact that the returning demon found the man 'empty'......means that he wasn't saved......if he had been saved, he would have been 'occupied'.....by the Holy Spirit!!!!!

Run for da hills
THERE is nowhere in Scripture that says the Holy Spirit cannot be present with evil. This kind of idea is without biblical merit and is, in fact, a denigration of the power of God. The Almighty Spirit of God that created ALL beings has total control and dominion over good and evil. It is up to us as believers to believe (continuous tense) in Jesus Christ and to persevere and overcome.

Acts 26:18 CONFIRMS that when Jesus saves somebody He removes them from the power of Satan and his minions…….so a saved person who is indwelt by the Holy Spirit cannot be re-possessed by a demon!!!
Ac 26:18 To open their eyes, and to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan unto God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins, and inheritance among them which are sanctified by faith that is in me.

Equally 1Th 5:5 confirms that the light of God can have no fellowship with the darkness of Satan and his demons……and therefore the presence of the Holy Spirit in saved Christians prevents demonic possession ..... thereby actually PROVING the dominion of God over evil!!!
1Th 5:5 Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness.

As Christians, we are mandated by Jesus to persevere and overcome the works of darkness……but we would be totally powerless to do so without His help!!!!
James 2:19 confirms that “Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.”
…..please note that the demons don’t tremble at mere Human Beings……who are no match for Satan…..but the demons do tremble before saved Christians who are indwelt by the Holy Spirit who is the Third Person of God……and therefore has full power to rebuke Satan and all his minions!!!


Originally Posted by J C
We are unconditionally save by God's Grace.and the parable of the vine is about people who refuse to be saved and bear fruit for God!!!!!

Run for da hills
That Parable was absolutly meaningless to me until I first became a Christian, It even began to mean more to me when I backslid completly and got involved premoting the Devils music and living his lifestyle. It was when I came back to the lord after many years that I realised the full meaning of this parable. This about those that are initially saved but decide not to continue with the walk in Christ and fall back into sin and the world, they become unprofitable and are cut off from their relationship with Christ. However they can be "grafted back" as mentioned several times in scripture. "Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be graffed in". Romans 11 vs 19.

Light cannot abide with darkness…….so IF you were promoting and living a Satanic lifestyle you certainly had not been saved at that time……….

In Rom 11 Paul was talking to Gentiles and warning them that because God hadn’t saved all 'branches' of the Jews (His own Chosen People) because of their unbelief in Jesus Christ, He would also not save any Gentile who didn’t believe either.
Paul then goes on in verse 23 to confirm that anybody who “abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again”……i.e. God would save them if they believed (despite their previous unbelief)!!!


Run for da hills
I believe in a just God. What I would call an unjust God would be a "two faced God" ie one that would punish the unsaved more than the saved for committing the same same sins.

ALL sin is punishable by Hellfire……unless you are saved…….when all your sins are forgiven!!!

God’s justice is NOT the justice of men…….for example, a repentant murderer will be sentenced by our Human Courts to life in prison, just like a non-repentant one …….........same crime ..... same sentence!!

..........but Jesus will fully pardon and save a repentant murderer who believes on Him…..and yet He will consign an upright man to eternal perdition, if he doesn’t repent and believe on Him!!!!


Run for da hills
An example of this would be a "Bornagain" believer who backslid completly and committed adultary or fell back to become a cumpulsive liar or a thief. I believe he should be more accountible for this than the an unsaved for committing the same offense which is punishible by hell fire.

YOU may believe that a saved person should be more accountable for his sins than an unsaved person……but God DOESN’T share your belief!!!

…..and indeed (because we are all sinners) why would anybody bother to be saved IF they were going to be judged MORE harshly by God AFTER they were saved……..

ALL people are EQUALLY accountable for their sins……..and are EQUALLY deserving of eternal perdition!!!
……but Jesus Christ has decided (in His absolute sovereignty) to save everyone who (genuinely) repents and believes on Him…..

The perfect justice of God is tempered by His perfect mercy, on those who ask for it!!!


Run for da hills
I believe those that are saved are going to be even more scrutinized because they know the truth and the difference between good and evil. The unsaved do not have this ability because they have never experienced the truth. Jesus said the road that leadeth unto live is "narrow" and only those that endureth to the end will be saved. I believe it that way.

BOTH the saved and the unsaved know the difference between good and evil..........that knowledge was acquired by our first parents in the Garden of Eden!!!!

IF the sins of the saved are “going to be even more scrutinized” than those of the unsaved…….then they are even more doomed to eternal perdition than the unsaved……and this would make it impossible for anybody to be saved!!!

Luckily Jesus Christ has decided, in His grace, NOT to scrutinise the sins of the saved ……or He would be sending us all to Hell also!!!!!

The ‘narrow way’ is Jesus Christ and Him ALONE!!!

The endurance which Christians must suffer is the pain of seeing many of their friends and acquaintances heading straight for Hell, because they refuse to repent of their sins and believe on Jesus Christ!!
.....and Jesus Christ also shares the pain of Christians at the folly of their fellow man!!!

Run for da hills
On a different note, we both believe that the forbidden mark is coming, do you believe that if someone who was initially saved and took it would be still be saved? This would rule out the docterine of OSAS. I believe many christians will give in to this because of its worldly convenience and the pressure to take it.

Nobody who takes the ‘mark’ can be saved…….and no saved Christian will take the ‘mark’.

Those who are saved at the start of the tribulation will be raptured beyond Satan’s ability to coerce them …..and those who are subsequently saved and refuse to take the ‘mark’ will be killed immediately, and so they too, will have no further dilemmas about the ‘mark’ either!!!!

Run_to_da_hills

Not sure.

J C wrote: »

Somebody who is freed from demonic possession is NOT saved......they must freely believe on Jesus Christ to be saved.
The fact that the returning demon found the man 'empty'......means that he wasn't saved......if he had been saved, he would have been 'occupied'.....by the Holy Spirit!!!!!!

Why would Jesus preach of such a parable? Why would he speak of someone having his "house swept" this would be totally meaningless speaking to be referring to any unsaved person.

J C wrote: »

Acts 26:18 CONFIRMS that when Jesus saves somebody He removes them from the power of Satan and his minions…….so a saved person who is indwelt by the Holy Spirit cannot be re-possessed by a demon!!

You again are totally disputing the Gospel of Christ on the dangers of the returning Demon. Matthew. 12:43-45 and Luke 11:23-26

J C wrote: »

We are unconditionally save by God's Grace.and the parable of the vine is about people who refuse to be saved and bear fruit for God!!!!! [/I]
!!

Run for da hills

J C wrote: »

Light cannot abide with darkness…….so IF you were promoting and living a Satanic lifestyle you certainly had not been saved at that time.!!!!

Light cannot possibly obide in darkness because of sin, I mentioned this before, I know well that I was saved initially in January of 1986 and I did backslide to a condition I would have considered worse than before I was saved.

Could you tell me what is the point of our lord preaching the parables of the Prodogol son, lost sheep or the Lost coin? Are they just good bedtime stories? "I say unto you, that likewise joy shall be in heaven over one sinner that repenteth, more than over ninety and nine just persons, which need no repentance" LUKE 15 vs7Remember Sin is sin, stealing a mars bar is no different to living a godless life because ALL SIN IS OF THE DEVIL and repentance clenses one of ALL unrightiousness. According to your philosophy 1 John 1vs 9 is null and void. "If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness".

J C wrote: »

God’s justice is NOT the justice of men…….for example, a repentant murderer will be sentenced by our Human Courts to life in prison, just like a non-repentant one but Jesus will forgive and save a repentant murderer who believes on Him…..and yet He will consign an upright man to eternal perdition, if he doesn’t repent and believe on Him!!!!!!!!

I agree and many convicted murderers have died professed Christians on death row. .

J C wrote: »

YOU may believe that a saved person should be more accountable for his sins than an unsaved person……but God DOESN’T share your belief!!! !!

Then again you are disputing II Peter 2:20-21 which again is speaking to the Church.
“For if, after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overcome, the latter end is worse for them than the beginning. For it would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than having known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered to them.”

J C wrote: »

The ‘narrow way’ is Jesus Christ and Him ALONE!!

I agree with you however if you backslide and have no longer fellowship with Christ you are in great danger falling into the trap of the Devil and ending up on the wide road again.

J C wrote: »

Nobody who takes the ‘mark’ can be saved…….and no saved Christian will take the ‘mark’. Those who are saved at the start of the tribulation will be raptured beyond Satan’s ability to coerce them …..and those who are subsequently saved and refuse to take the ‘mark’ will be killed and they too will have no further dilemmas about the ‘mark’ either!!!!

The mark of the Beast is the final test for all mankind and will distinguish the bride of Christ, ie the true Christian church from the counterfeit. I believe many "saved" Christians will take the mark just any as saved Christian can and will sin as part of their sinful flesh nature except the difference here is that this is the one Sin that can NEVER be forgiven. http://www.spiritlessons.com/Documents/Mark_of_the_Beast/Mark_of_the_Beast_666.htm?gclid=COKU0Prf2JACFQqwQwodKhvUWA

J C

Those that believe "once saved always saved" is a false docterine.

Originally Posted by J C
Somebody who is freed from demonic possession is NOT saved......they must freely believe on Jesus Christ to be saved.
The fact that the returning demon found the man 'empty'......means that he wasn't saved......if he had been saved, he would have been 'occupied'.....by the Holy Spirit!!!!!!

Run to da hills
Why would Jesus preach of such a parable? Why would he speak of someone having his "house swept" this would be totally meaningless speaking to be referring to any unsaved person.

He spoke this parable to warn people that being freed from demonic possession may be very dramatic ……but it doesn’t save the person…….who remains in peril of being re-possessed in this life .....and being lost in the next life, unless and until they are saved.

The person may become rational and peaceful after the demons are driven out of them (i.e. their ‘house is swept’) ……but they remain unsaved until THEY believe on Jesus Christ to save them……pretty basic Christian doctrine actually….so I don’t know why you continue to argue this point.


Originally Posted by J C
Acts 26:18 CONFIRMS that when Jesus saves somebody He removes them from the power of Satan and his minions…….so a saved person who is indwelt by the Holy Spirit cannot be re-possessed by a demon!!

Run to da hills
You again are totally disputing the Gospel of Christ on the dangers of the returning Demon. Matthew. 12:43-45 and Luke 11:23-26

…..and you are missing the point of Matthew. 12:43-45 and Luke 11:23-26.... that lack of possession is NOT the same thing as salvation.

Demons DO NOT possess saved Christians…..who instead are exclusively ‘possessed’ of the Holy Spirit!!!

……and that is another benefit (in this life) of being saved!!!

…..and to put the issue beyond all doubt, Jesus said in Lk 11:23 “He who is not with me is against me and he who does not gather with me scatters”.
ALL demons are Antichrist ....and therefore against Jesus ……so a person CANNOT be possessed with demons and be a Christian (contending for Jesus) at the same time.

WHERE do you get the idea that you can be possessed with demons and working, as a Christian, for Jesus at the same time?


Run to da hills
Could you tell me what is the point of our lord preaching the parables of the Prodogol son, lost sheep or the Lost coin? Are they just good bedtime stories? "I say unto you, that likewise joy shall be in heaven over one sinner that repenteth, more than over ninety and nine just persons, which need no repentance" LUKE 15 vs7Remember Sin is sin, stealing a mars bar is no different to living a godless life because ALL SIN IS OF THE DEVIL and repentance clenses one of ALL unrightiousness. According to your philosophy 1 John 1vs 9 is null and void. "If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness".

These parables show that God loves everybody with a father’s love and desires that everybody be saved……and that is why there is more rejoicing in Heaven over one unsaved sinner who repents (and is saved) than over 99 saved righteous persons who do not need to repent and to be saved (again)!!!

ALL Human Beings are children of God ……and it breaks His heart to see some of His children reject His gift of salvation!!


Originally Posted by J C
YOU may believe that a saved person should be more accountable for his sins than an unsaved person……but God DOESN’T share your belief!!! !!

Run to da hills
Then again you are disputing II Peter 2:20-21 which again is speaking to the Church.
“For if, after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overcome, the latter end is worse for them than the beginning. For it would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than having known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered to them.”

These verses refer to people who have known the Gospel, but who have rejected it without ever being saved……and their fate is worse than those who have never known the Word of God.

You may have been in this category yourself, when you rejected the Word of God after having known it, and you began to engage in the works of darkness…….and ended up worse off than you started!!!


Run to da hills
The mark of the Beast is the final test for all mankind and will distinguish the bride of Christ, ie the true Christian church from the counterfeit. I believe many "saved" Christians will take the mark just any as saved Christian can and will sin as part of their sinful flesh nature except the difference here is that this is the one Sin that can NEVER be forgiven.

The tribulation will certainly distinguish between saved Christians and counterfeit ones!!

The tribulation (of which the ‘mark’ is a component) is a DIRECT punishment from God on a people who are openly worshipping Satan and demanding that everybody do so.

God will NOT directly punish the saved……..there would be no logic in punishing those whom He has saved from His Divine wrath??

……..so the saved will be raptured before the ’mark’ is introduced and anybody saved at the time of their death for refusing the ‘mark’ in accordance with Rev13:15 will go to Heaven…….and therefore NO saved Christian will be lost because of the ‘mark’.

Spyral

they must freely believe on Jesus Christ to be saved.

the devil belives...

is he saved ?

SubjectSean

Spyral wrote: »

the devil belives...

is he saved ?

Apparently so according to Saul. All ha-Satan needs is a little faith and so long as he has it he can ignore God's law.

J C

Those that believe "once saved always saved" is a false docterine.

Spyral wrote: »

the devil belives...

is he saved ?

The devil doesn't just believe ......he knows that Jesus Christ is Lord!!!:D

However, the spiritual state of the Devil is such that he cannot be saved......no matter what He does or says.

Saint Paul confirms in Acts 16:31 that ALL people who say the words "I believe on Jesus Christ" (and mean it) WILL be saved !!!

Spyral wrote: »

Real men pray the Rosary

Real men .......get saved.:D

J C

Those that believe "once saved always saved" is a false docterine.

SubjectSean wrote: »

Apparently so according to Saul. All ha-Satan needs is a little faith and so long as he has it he can ignore God's law.

I have never advocated ignoring God's Law......it is a VERY GOOD IDEA to obey the Ten Commandments!!!

......all I am saying is that a saved Christian can not lose his/her salvation because of sin.......

.....they can lose their lives or their health or their freedom or their happiness or their friends because of sin......and so living an openly sinful life is a VERY BAD IDEA.......for anybody (including saved Christians)!!!

Run_to_da_hills

Not sure.

J C wrote: »

Originally Posted by J C
Somebody who is freed from demonic possession is NOT saved......they must freely believe on Jesus Christ to be saved.
The fact that the returning demon found the man 'empty'......means that he wasn't saved......if he had been saved, he would have been 'occupied'.....by the Holy Spirit!!!!!!. THe Devil also "freely" believes believes in God.....and trembles.

"Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble." James 2:19:

J C wrote: »

The person may become rational and peaceful after the demons are driven out of them (i.e. their ‘house is swept’) ……but they remain unsaved until THEY believe on Jesus Christ to save them……pretty basic Christian doctrine actually….so I don’t know why you continue to argue this point.

I argue this point because Jesus is adressing the Church who are capable of sinning and losing their salvation if they fall away from Grace.

J C wrote: »

Originally Posted by J C
Acts 26:18 CONFIRMS that when Jesus saves somebody He removes them from the power of Satan and his minions…….so a saved person who is indwelt by the Holy Spirit cannot be re-possessed by a demon

Of course it can, all sin seperates us from God and the sins of a saved person are even more judged than those of the unsaved, The Christian has to be even more vigilant than the unsaved because Satan will do his best to bring that person down AND HE CAN. "Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour" 1 Peter 5vs8

J C wrote: »

Demons DO NOT possess saved Christians…..who instead are exclusively ‘possessed’ of the Holy Spirit!!!

They can ant they will if you abandon God, sin and fall away from Grace. I have mentioned this umpteen times with scriptural back up..

J C wrote: »

……and that is another benefit (in this life) of being saved!!!

Only Provided you obide in Christ and endureth to the end.

J C wrote: »

ALL demons are Antichrist ....and therefore against Jesus ……so a person CANNOT be possessed with demons and be a Christian (contending for Jesus) at the same time. WHERE do you get the idea that you can be possessed with demons and working, as a Christian, for Jesus at the same time?

When a Christian backslides to a point the Holy Spirit no longer dwells in that person because of sin, The Holy Spirit cannot and will not operate in a sinful body. Demons will take over that person (the same that came out of him). The Holy Spirit will only return after solumn repentance. God will never forget any person no matter how far thery fall back and welcome him back.

J C wrote: »

The unsaved ARE NOT SONS OF GOD! so christ is talking about a repentant SON, ie a repentant SAVED person. The Sheep have always been known Gods flock right throughout scripture, ("My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me" John 10vs27) Jesus is talking about the Church, when one of his sheep goes missing. it is one of gods SAVED gone missing, ie spiritually dead! Jesus is not talking of the unsaved here.

J C wrote: »

These parables show that God loves everybody with a father’s love and desires that everybody be saved……and that is why there is more rejoicing in Heaven over one unsaved sinner who repents (and is saved) than over 99 saved righteous persons who do not need to repent and to be saved (again)!!!.

God loves everyone but despises sin and it dose not go unpunished to the saved (who shrink back) and the unsaved (who are spiritually dead and condemed already)

J C wrote: »

ALL Human Beings are children of God .

THIS IS NOT TRUE. The unsaved are "Children of the Devil". Those that receive Jesus are "born again" as the children of God. Those that reject Him remain the children of Satan.

J C wrote: »

and it breaks His heart to see some of His children reject His gift of salvation!!

This is precicly why he wept. "Jesus Wept" John 11vs35. (this verse is the shortest and probably the most upsetting verse in scripture).

J C wrote: »

The tribulation will certainly distinguish between saved Christians and counterfeit ones!!.

Some Christians that believe in the "Rapture" believe that the Backsliders and those that have fallen away will be left behind on earth and will be given a second chance of making it up with God by the ultimate test with the "Mark of the Beast".

J C wrote: »

The tribulation (of which the ‘mark’ is a component) is a DIRECT punishment from God on a people who are openly worshipping Satan and demanding that everybody do so.

God will NOT directly punish the saved……..there would be no logic in punishing those whom He has saved from His Divine wrath??!!.

The "Mark ofthe Beast" is the final test on mankind and carries with it the greatest test and punishment, which God has ever pronounced upon humanity.

J C

Those that believe "once saved always saved" is a false docterine.

Originally Posted by J C
Acts 26:18 CONFIRMS that when Jesus saves somebody He removes them from the power of Satan and his minions…….so a saved person who is indwelt by the Holy Spirit cannot be re-possessed by a demon

Run to da hills
Of course it can, all sin seperates us from God and the sins of a saved person are even more judged than those of the unsaved, The Christian has to be even more vigilant than the unsaved because Satan will do his best to bring that person down AND HE CAN. "Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour" 1 Peter 5vs8

Satan can tempt a Christian…..He had the audacity to tempt Jesus Christ, after all.

Satan can destroy a Christian physically……all Christian martyrs have been killed by people working under the direct influence of Satan…..and sinful living will destroy our bodies!!!

….BUT Satan can NEVER possess a saved Christian……because we are already possessed by the Holy Spirit of God!!!!


Run to da hills
When a Christian backslides to a point the Holy Spirit no longer dwells in that person because of sin,

……so WHEN exactly do you believe that this point is reached…….is it after the first ‘smallest’ sin?
……..or is it after one hundred ‘big’ sins?

……..and WHAT happens Christians (who are ALL sinners) ……and therefore die with unrepented sins?

The Roman Catholic answer is Purgatory …….what IS your answer?


Run to da hills
The Holy Spirit cannot and will not operate in a sinful body. Demons will take over that person (the same that came out of him). The Holy Spirit will only return after solumn repentance.

We are saved while YET sinners…..so the Holy Spirit has no problem occupying our fallen sinful bodies……it is the demon who MUST avoid being ‘up close and personal’ with the Holy Spirit…..and that is why saved Christians cannot be demonically possessed......there simply is no room for the demon!!!


Run to da hills
The Sheep have always been known Gods flock right throughout scripture, ("My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me" John 10vs27) Jesus is talking about the Church, when one of his sheep goes missing. it is one of gods SAVED gone missing, ie spiritually dead! Jesus is not talking of the unsaved here.

When Jesus talks about ‘MY sheep’ He is talking about saved Christians……however there are others who are NOT of His flock…..and they are the unsaved sheep!!!!
......and these become 'unsaved goats' if they die unsaved.

Originally Posted by J C
ALL Human Beings are children of God

Run to da hills
THIS IS NOT TRUE. The unsaved are "Children of the Devil". Those that receive Jesus are "born again" as the children of God. Those that reject Him remain the children of Satan.

Your contention is partially true....the spiritual Children of God are saved Christians.
However, all Human Beings are direct lineal descendents of Adam and Eve, whom God directly created with His own hands….and so we are all God’s physical children!!!
.....and that is why racism and sectarianism should have no place in a Christian's heart!!!


Run to da hills
Some Christians that believe in the "Rapture" believe that the Backsliders and those that have fallen away will be left behind on earth and will be given a second chance of making it up with God by the ultimate test with the "Mark of the Beast".

There is no Biblical basis for such a belief……
.........at the end of the day, ALL Christians are sinners …..and therefore ‘backsliders’…..to some degree!!!


Run to da hills
The "Mark of the Beast" is the final test on mankind and carries with it the greatest test and punishment, which God has ever pronounced upon humanity.
The ‘mark’ is a PUNISHMENT …..of eternal perdition on all who take it…..

The ONLY ‘test’ which Christians must pass is to repent and believe on Jesus Christ!!!

Run_to_da_hills

Not sure.

J C wrote: »

Originally Posted by J C
Acts 26:18 CONFIRMS that when Jesus saves somebody He removes them from the power of Satan and his minions…….so a saved person who is indwelt by the Holy Spirit cannot be re-possessed by a demon

In 2 Corinthians 11:3-4 Paul exhorts the believers at Corinth to remain true to the gospel and he sets forth the possibility that they could, if they were not careful, “receive another spirit” which was presumably a spirit of error and deception (cf. Matthew 24:4; 2 Thessalonians 2:3; 1 John 3:7).

In 1 Timothy 4:1, Paul gives a strong admonition to the believers to guard themselves, in view of the fact that “in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of demons.”

In Galatians 3:1 Paul accuses the Christians in Galatia of having been “bewitched” by false teachers with their false doctrines. All of these references reveal the possibility of a believer being seriously oppressed and influenced by Satan.

J C wrote: »

Originally Posted by J C

Satan can tempt a Christian…..He had the audacity to tempt Jesus Christ, after all.

Satan can destroy a Christian physically……all Christian martyrs have been killed by people working under the direct influence of Satan…..and sinful living will destroy our bodies.BUT Satan can NEVER possess a saved Christian……because we are already possessed by the Holy Spirit of God!!!!]

Of course Satan can influence a Christian and tempt him to sin, the weaker that person is in the lord the more of a field day Satan will have in bringing that Christian down,"Saved" Christians that neglect fellowship, church and prayer leave themselves wide open to the power of Satan to influence them and if they are not careful they will forget that they have been saved at all.
(God will never forget a Saved Christian and will always accept him back from satans clutches if he repents.

J C wrote: »

[


Run to da hills
When a Christian backslides to a point the Holy Spirit no longer dwells in that person because of sin,

……so WHEN exactly do you believe that this point is reached…….is it after the first ‘smallest’ sin?
……..or is it after one hundred ‘big’ sins?

……..and WHAT happens Christians (who are ALL sinners) ……and therefore die with unrepented sins?

The Roman Catholic answer is Purgatory …….what IS your answer?]

Purgatory dose not exist as I mentioned before, It is not a matter of how many sins you have accumilated, it is a matter of who you are serving. A saved Christian who is walks daily with Christ knows that he is serving the lord. THe backslider who has fallen back into sin is no longer serving the lord but is serving Satan.

J C wrote: »

[
We are saved while YET sinners…..so the Holy Spirit has no problem occupying our fallen sinful bodies……it is the demon who MUST avoid being ‘up close and personal’ with the Holy Spirit…..and that is why saved Christians cannot be demonically possessed......there simply is no room for the demon!!!

When a Christian sins he is giving deamons a wedge to enter that person, this builds up if left unchecked as spoken of in James.

J C wrote: »

ALL Human Beings are children of God


Run to da hills
Some Christians that believe in the "Rapture" believe that the Backsliders and those that have fallen away will be left behind on earth and will be given a second chance of making it up with God by the ultimate test with the "Mark of the Beast".



There is no Biblical basis for such a belief……

There is plenty of Biblical basis, God is Holy and cannot accept any those that are unrighteousness. If he is going to call his people prior to the Great tribulation he is not going to accept those who made a committment but failed to honour it such as those that have fallen back into sin. IE. "The acts of the sinful nature are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God. Gal 5:19-21

J C wrote: »

.at the end of the day, ALL Christians are sinners …..and therefore ‘backsliders’…..to some degree!!!

There is a contrast between a "sinner" and a backslider. A Christian sinning is someone who would be consious of his sin, he would be convicted and would repent and get right with God as soon as possible. The backslider on the otherhand sins and no longer feels convicted, infact he would often have pleasure in his unrightiousness. A true Christians life is Christ centred, this person cannot pass five minutes of the day without thinking of Christ, every descision a Christian makes must take Christ into consideration. The Backslider will have Christ out of the picture altogether. ie every descision that person makes is self centred. Those that were once saved and have turned their back on God, These are the ones that I have been referring to right through this thread. There is a difference between a saved Christian having "few falls" and a "saved" Christian who deliberatly rejects the Gospel and lives a self centred lifestyle.

I personally believe those that will be called prior to the tribulation will be those that are "Hot" with Christ, those "luke warm" and cold in Christ will be left behind and be given the ultimate test with the mark of the beast with the rest of humanity, failing this they are danmed.

J C wrote: »

Originally Posted by J C
The ONLY ‘test’ which Christians must pass is to repent and believe on Jesus Christ

I agree but that person must still endure to the end, the initial committment of being saved is only the start of the Christians life, The Spiritual battle is only beginning at this point. The Christian is more aware of Spiritual warfare than the unsaved and Satan will do all in his power to try to bring this person down and will succeed if that person dose not keep his committment with Christ.