Once saved always saved is a false doctrine..

J C

Those that believe "once saved always saved" is a false docterine.

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

In 2 Corinthians 11:3-4 Paul exhorts the believers at Corinth to remain true to the gospel and he sets forth the possibility that they could, if they were not careful, “receive another spirit” which was presumably a spirit of error and deception (cf. Matthew 24:4; 2 Thessalonians 2:3; 1 John 3:7).

In 1 Timothy 4:1, Paul gives a strong admonition to the believers to guard themselves, in view of the fact that “in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of demons.”

In Galatians 3:1 Paul accuses the Christians in Galatia of having been “bewitched” by false teachers with their false doctrines. All of these references reveal the possibility of a believer being seriously oppressed and influenced by Satan.

Paul was writing to the Christian Community.......some of whom were NOT saved.

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

Satan can influence a Christian and tempt him to sin, the weaker that person is in the lord the more of a field day Satan will have in bringing that Christian down,"Saved" Christians that neglect fellowship, church and prayer leave themselves wide open to the power of Satan to influence them and if they are not careful they will forget that they have been saved at all.

There is only ONE mediator between God and Man......Jesus Christ.
There is only ONE who can save us......Jesus Christ.
There is only ONE Spirit who can teach us ......The Holy Spirit.

While fellowship and Church are nice to have, they are NOT essential to our salvation......which is personally guaranteed by Jesus Christ.

There are individual Christians all over the World who are unable to attend Church because of their circumstances.....and they are no less a Christian that the person in the front pew every Sunday.

....and somebody who claims to have "forgotten that that they have been savedl".....were never actually saved!!!!

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

It is not a matter of how many sins you have accumilated, it is a matter of who you are serving. A saved Christian who is walks daily with Christ knows that he is serving the lord. THe backslider who has fallen back into sin is no longer serving the lord but is serving Satan.

As you have said "it is not a matter of how many sins you have accumilated, it is a matter of who you are serving"..........
....and a saved Christian ALWAYS serves the Lord and keeps His Commandments.......while still a sinner !!!!

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

When a Christian sins he is giving deamons a wedge to enter that person, this builds up if left unchecked as spoken of in James.

The saving power of Jesus Christ and the spiritual power of the Holy Spirit means that demonic possession is impossible in a saved Christian!!!

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

There is plenty of Biblical basis, God is Holy and cannot accept any those that are unrighteousness. If he is going to call his people prior to the Great tribulation he is not going to accept those who made a committment but failed to honour it such as those that have fallen back into sin.

......then NOBODY will be saved or raptured.......because we are ALL sinners......

.....but Jesus Christ came to save SINNERS......and He will also rapture saved SINNERS.......and that is the Good News of salvation.......

.......a bit of a disappointment for the legalists ......who would like retribution upon EVERYONE (other than themselves)....but who fail to understand that THEY will be the ones on the receiving end of God's Justice if THEY fail to repent and ask for God's Mercy!!!

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

There is a contrast between a "sinner" and a backslider. A Christian sinning is someone who would be consious of his sin, he would be convicted and would repent and get right with God as soon as possible. The backslider on the otherhand sins and no longer feels convicted, infact he would often have pleasure in his unrightiousness. A true Christians life is Christ centred, this person cannot pass five minutes of the day without thinking of Christ, every descision a Christian makes must take Christ into consideration. The Backslider will have Christ out of the picture altogether. ie every descision that person makes is self centred.

The "backslider" as described above doesn't appear to have EVER been saved.

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

Those that were once saved and have turned their back on God, These are the ones that I have been referring to right through this thread. There is a difference between a saved Christian having "few falls" and a "saved" Christian who deliberatly rejects the Gospel and lives a self centred lifestyle.

We are ALL sinners.....and there is NO difference between somebody with a "few falls" or "many falls".....as far as God is concerned!!!

The ONLY thing that matters is whether the person has believed on Jesus Christ to save him!!!

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

I personally believe those that will be called prior to the tribulation will be those that are "Hot" with Christ, those "luke warm" and cold in Christ will be left behind and be given the ultimate test with the mark of the beast with the rest of humanity, failing this they are danmed.

The saved believe on Jesus Christ.......and so they are always 'hot' with Him
.......the unsaved haven't believed on Jesus Christ ......and they are always 'lukewarm' or 'cold' with Him!!!

...and the ONLY ‘test’ which a Christian must pass is to repent and believe on Jesus Christ!!

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

I agree but that person must still endure to the end, the initial committment of being saved is only the start of the Christians life, The Spiritual battle is only beginning at this point. The Christian is more aware of Spiritual warfare than the unsaved and Satan will do all in his power to try to bring this person down and will succeed if that person dose not keep his committment with Christ.

......Satan may tempt a Christian to sin........and the Christian will suffer the temporal consequences of his sin, if he does..........but Satan cannot 'unsave' a Christian.....and Jesus Christ confirms that "not one of them you gave me have I lost"

Run_to_da_hills

Not sure.

J C wrote: »

Paul was writing to the Christian Community.......some of whom were NOT saved.

Paul was writing to the Church, ie the body of saved believers in Christ, to the unsaved these epistles would be meaningless.

J C wrote: »

There is only ONE mediator between God and Man......Jesus Christ.
There is only ONE who can save us......Jesus Christ.
There is only ONE Spirit who can teach us ......The Holy Spirit..

I agree, but the Holy Spirit cannot reside in a sinful body, God is slow to anger, and the Holy Spirit will leave. Evidence of this can be seen with some backsliders when they start to curse and swearing. If they had the Holy Spirit they would not do this. The holy Spirit has no interest in someone who turns their back on Christ.

J C wrote: »

While fellowship and Church are nice to have, they are NOT essential to our salvation which is personally guaranteed by Jesus Christ.

There are individual Christians all over the World who are unable to attend Church because of their circumstances and they are no less a Christian that the person in the front pew every Sunday.

There is a contrast between not bothering to attend a service and not being able to go due to work or other circumstances etc.

J C wrote: »

....and somebody who claims to have "forgotten that that they have been savedl".....were never actually saved!!!!
As you have said "it is not a matter of how many sins you have accumilated, it is a matter of who you are serving"..........
....and a saved Christian ALWAYS serves the Lord and keeps His Commandments.......while still a sinner !!!!The saving power of Jesus Christ and the spiritual power of the Holy Spirit means that demonic possession is impossible in a saved Christian!!!"

Again Scripture covers this again and again, ie Demons returning.

J C wrote: »

The "backslider" as described above doesn't appear to have EVER been saved.

Backsliding is when a "born-again" or "Saved" believer in Christ turns back to sin or becomes stubborn in his heart and refuses to submit to the will of God in his life. The outward actions are only symptoms of the real problem the attitude of the heart which must be dealt with in order to change the actions.

If you read yor Bible you will find that God is a forgiving God that will forgive ANY sin (Except for the mark), and any backsliding if that person is willing to submit to God, "The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance". 2 Peter 3vs9. God forbid any saved Christian that dies in an unrepentant backslidden state.

J C wrote: »

We are ALL sinners and there is NO difference between somebody with a "few falls" or "many falls" as far as God is concerned!!! "

Extremly dangerous statement from you when it reads in romans 2 vs 23 "For the wages of sin is death" ie spiritual danmnation and seperation from God. When a person is "saved" only their past sins are forgiven to that very point of committment and they are reborn in spirit. Their future sins will be judged even more so than than those of the unsaved because they have the knowledge of the truth.

J C wrote: »

The ONLY thing that matters is whether the person has believed on Jesus Christ to save him!!!"

Again another very dangerous statement from you. That person must remain on the straight and narrow and endure to the end to be saved.

J C wrote: »

The saved believe on Jesus Christ.......and so they are always 'hot' with Him
.......the unsaved haven't believed on Jesus Christ ......and they are always 'lukewarm' or 'cold' with Him!!! "

Backsliders ie once saved Christians are no longer Hot for Christ, they are either cold or luke warm, infact Our lord destested luke warm Christians more than those that are cold, "So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth".

J C wrote: »

...and the ONLY ‘test’ which a Christian must pass is to repent and believe on Jesus Christ!! "

Yet another very dangerous statement from you, Again The saved Christian must endure to the end.

I believe many of the TV evangelists were saved at one point of time, many have gone off track altogether and some to the point of preaching "another Gospel" and others have got fond of financial gain, I believe many of these will be judged. The Bible spreaks of this. "Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity"
Matthew 7vs23

J C wrote: »

Satan may tempt a Christian to sin........and the Christian will suffer the temporal consequences of his sin, if he does but Satan cannot 'unsave' a Christian and Jesus Christ confirms that "not one of them you gave me have I lost"

Temporal consequences? What if this person dies in this state of sin, do I smell purgatory?

One of the most conclusive set of scriptures denying and exposing as a terrible heresy the "once saved, always saved" doctrine is Hebrews 10:26-31. The writer of Hebrews is making a comparison here to offenses committed under the Mosaic law, not to the legalities, but the punishment. People who rejected Moses' law died without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. The 29th verse is clearly saying that a blood-washed Christian who abuses God's grace will receive the worse punishment.

Heb 10:26-31 NKJV) "For if we sin willfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, {27} but a certain fearful expectation of judgment, and fiery indignation which will devour the adversaries. {28} Anyone who has rejected Moses' law dies without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. {29} Of how much worse punishment, do you suppose, will he be thought worthy who has trampled the Son of God underfoot, counted the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified a common thing, and insulted the Spirit of grace? {30} For we know Him who said, "Vengeance is Mine, I will repay," says the Lord. And again, "The LORD will judge His people." {31} It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God."

J C

Those that believe "once saved always saved" is a false docterine.

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

Paul was writing to the Church, ie the body of saved believers in Christ, to the unsaved these epistles would be meaningless.

The Word of God is addressed to ALL......both the saved and the unsaved.

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

I agree, but the Holy Spirit cannot reside in a sinful body, God is slow to anger, and the Holy Spirit will leave. Evidence of this can be seen with some backsliders when they start to curse and swearing. If they had the Holy Spirit they would not do this. The holy Spirit has no interest in someone who turns their back on Christ.

We are ALL sinners and anybody who claims to be otherwise is a liar.....so the Holy Spirit CAN reside in a sinful body.......provided the person has been saved......and indeed ALL saved Christians are sinners in sinful bodies......yet indwelt by the Holy Spirit!!!

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

There is a contrast between not bothering to attend a service and not being able to go due to work or other circumstances etc. Again Scripture covers this again and again, ie Demons returning.

Christians will obviously enjoy fellowship with fellow Christians.......BUT their ultimate fellowship is with Jesus Christ

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

Backsliding is when a "born-again" or "Saved" believer in Christ turns back to sin or becomes stubborn in his heart and refuses to submit to the will of God in his life. The outward actions are only symptoms of the real problem the attitude of the heart which must be dealt with in order to change the actions.

If you read yor Bible you will find that God is a forgiving God that will forgive ANY sin (Except for the mark), and any backsliding if that person is willing to submit to God, "The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance". 2 Peter 3vs9. God forbid any saved Christian that dies in an unrepentant backslidden state.

I agree with you that the 'unrepentant backslidden state' as described above, is probably an unsaved state.......and therefore indicative that the person has NEVER been saved

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

Extremly dangerous statement from you when it reads in romans 2 vs 23 "For the wages of sin is death" ie spiritual danmnation and seperation from God. When a person is "saved" only their past sins are forgiven to that very point of committment and they are reborn in spirit. Their future sins will be judged even more so than than those of the unsaved because they have the knowledge of the truth. Again another very dangerous statement from you. That person must remain on the straight and narrow and endure to the end to be saved. Backsliders ie once saved Christians are no longer Hot for Christ, they are either cold or luke warm, infact Our lord destested luke warm Christians more than those that are cold, "So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth".

You seem to accept that Jesus Christ IS willing and able to save sinners........before they are saved........so why do you have such a doubt about Him continuing to save sinners ....after they are saved???

......a persons salvation is a matter between that person and Jesus Christ.....and ONLY Jesus and the person themselves knows whether they are saved....or not.

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

Yet another very dangerous statement from you, Again The saved Christian must endure to the end.

I believe many of the TV evangelists were saved at one point of time, many have gone off track altogether and some to the point of preaching "another Gospel" and others have got fond of financial gain, I believe many of these will be judged. The Bible spreaks of this. "Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity"
Matthew 7vs23

Please note that Jesus confirms that He never knew the people to whom He referred......and therefore these people were never saved!!

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

Temporal consequences? What if this person dies in this state of sin, do I smell purgatory?

Everybody dies in a state of sin.......THAT is WHY we die.....so HOW can ANYBODY then be saved??

The Roman Catholic Church has answered this question with the concept of purging so-called 'minor' sins in Purgatory.......with Hell for the 'major' sinners.

Saved Christians believe that ALL of their sins are covered by the shed blood of Jesus Christ.

You don't appear to believe in either Purgatory or the satisfactory atonement of Jesus Christ for ALL of the sins of the saved.

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

One of the most conclusive set of scriptures denying and exposing as a terrible heresy the "once saved, always saved" doctrine is Hebrews 10:26-31. The writer of Hebrews is making a comparison here to offenses committed under the Mosaic law, not to the legalities, but the punishment. People who rejected Moses' law died without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. The 29th verse is clearly saying that a blood-washed Christian who abuses God's grace will receive the worse punishment.

Heb 10:26-31 NKJV) "For if we sin willfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, {27} but a certain fearful expectation of judgment, and fiery indignation which will devour the adversaries. {28} Anyone who has rejected Moses' law dies without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. {29} Of how much worse punishment, do you suppose, will he be thought worthy who has trampled the Son of God underfoot, counted the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified a common thing, and insulted the Spirit of grace? {30} For we know Him who said, "Vengeance is Mine, I will repay," says the Lord. And again, "The LORD will judge His people." {31} It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God."

The Letter to the Hebrews is addressed to unsaved and Messianic Jews.
Paul is pointing out to the Jews that since Jesus is Messiah and He has already come.....there remains no further Jewish Temple sacrifice for sin......and this remains true right up to today.

It is indeed a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God...IF you are unsaved......
.........but it is bliss for the saved in Jesus Christ to fall into His merciful hands!!!

Everybody must choose between being judged under God's Law.....or being saved under His mercy.

As a sinner, I have opted for God's mercy......the amnesty to beat all amnesties......so to speak!!!

BTW where are all of the other Christians on this forum.......and why are they so silent on this, the most fundamental issue of salvation????

Run_to_da_hills

Not sure.

J C wrote: »

The Word of God is addressed to ALL......both the saved and the unsaved. [/COLOR][/B]

Or should I have rephrased that statement, not all would understand the Gospel, ie the "unsaved" we read in 1 Corinthians, "For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness, but unto us which are saved it is the power of God" (1 Corinthians 1vs 18)

J C wrote: »

We are ALL sinners and anybody who claims to be otherwise is a liar.....so the Holy Spirit CAN reside in a sinful body.......provided the person has been saved......and indeed ALL saved Christians are sinners in sinful bodies......yet indwelt by the Holy Spirit!!!

As I keep on repeating myself again and again, I am not referring to christians who occasionally sin, I am referring to those who have been saved at one point and have since rejected Gods commandment.

J C wrote: »

You seem to accept that Jesus Christ IS willing and able to save sinners........before they are saved........so why do you have such a doubt about Him continuing to save sinners ....after they are saved?

Why should Christ continue to save those that have been "saved" that have turned their backs on him i.e. trampled over the cross and put him to shame?

J C wrote: »

Please note that Jesus confirms that He never knew the people to whom He referred......and therefore these people were never saved!!

You have ommitted the most important part of this verse.."And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity." (More so for those that were consious of their iniquities.)

J C wrote: »

Everybody dies in a state of sin.......THAT is WHY we die.....so HOW can ANYBODY then be saved??

Those that have fellowship with Christ, ie those that are "saved" and continue in Gods plan have no fear of death, those that were "saved" at one point and that have rejected Gods plan face the wrath of God.

J C wrote: »

The Roman Catholic Church has answered this question with the concept of purging so-called 'minor' sins in Purgatory.......with Hell for the 'major' sinners.

Saved Christians believe that ALL of their sins are covered by the shed blood of Jesus Christ.

My own words to describe a "Mortal sin" would be a sin worthy of eternal danmnation, such would be total Christ rejection i.e. not accepting Christ as their saviour. (Unsaved) or failing to follow Gods plan of salvation or obey the Gospel (Saved). Again 2 Thessalonians describes well what a "Mortal sin" is. "In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ" 2 Thessalonians 1 vs8

J C wrote: »

BTW where are all of the other Christians on this forum.......and why are they so silent on this, the most fundamental issue of salvation????

I would also like to hear a Christian response from others on this very important topic.


If I cannot lose salvation:
1) Why should I ask forgiveness?
2) Why should I repent?
3) Why should I do any works for the kingdom of God?


For if you cannot lose salvation, then none of the above even applies. Why would God tell us to do something but then turn around and make it sound like none of it has to be done? It's like saying: You can drive the car all you want, but never put fuel in it. Why? Because it's not needed. So why fear God enough to do what He has told us if we are not even going to be judged, or punished for not doing it. Does God speak worthless words? Is God's book a worthless book? If osas is believed, then 90% of God's word would have to be omitted to make it work. Because all punishment for sin has to be omitted.

wolfsbane

Those that believe "once saved always saved" is a false docterine.

Run_to_da_hills said:

I would also like to hear a Christian response from others on this very important topic.


If I cannot lose salvation:
1) Why should I ask forgiveness?
2) Why should I repent?
3) Why should I do any works for the kingdom of God?


For if you cannot lose salvation, then none of the above even applies. Why would God tell us to do something but then turn around and make it sound like none of it has to be done? It's like saying: You can drive the car all you want, but never put fuel in it. Why? Because it's not needed. So why fear God enough to do what He has told us if we are not even going to be judged, or punished for not doing it. Does God speak worthless words? Is God's book a worthless book? If osas is believed, then 90% of God's word would have to be omitted to make it work. Because all punishment for sin has to be omitted.

1. If we don't love God we are not Christians. Christians love God. We should do these things because we love God.

John 14:15 “If you love Me, keep My commandments.

2. God loves us, so He we not ignore our sinning but will discipline us as any good father would. Christians who sin are disciplined by their Heavenly Father. We should do these things because we will suffer in this life if we don't.

1 Corinthians 11:30 For this reason many are weak and sick among you, and many sleep. 31 For if we would judge ourselves, we would not be judged. 32 But when we are judged, we are chastened by the Lord, that we may not be condemned with the world.

Hebrews 12:5 And you have forgotten the exhortation which speaks to you as to sons:

“ My son, do not despise the chastening of the LORD,
Nor be discouraged when you are rebuked by Him;
6 For whom the LORD loves He chastens,
And scourges every son whom He receives.”

7 If you endure chastening, God deals with you as with sons; for what son is there whom a father does not chasten? 8 But if you are without chastening, of which all have become partakers, then you are illegitimate and not sons. 9 Furthermore, we have had human fathers who corrected us, and we paid them respect. Shall we not much more readily be in subjection to the Father of spirits and live? 10 For they indeed for a few days chastened us as seemed best to them, but He for our profit, that we may be partakers of His holiness. 11 Now no chastening seems to be joyful for the present, but painful; nevertheless, afterward it yields the peaceable fruit of righteousness to those who have been trained by it.

kelly1

Not sure.

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

I would also like to hear a Christian response from others on this very important topic.

If I cannot lose salvation:
1) Why should I ask forgiveness?
2) Why should I repent?
3) Why should I do any works for the kingdom of God?

Good questions!

Matthew 10:22 And you shall be hated by all men for my name's sake: but he that shall persevere unto the end, he shall be saved.

Clearly salvation can be lost! God doesn't force salvation upon anyone. We have the free will to reject eternal life.

J C

Those that believe "once saved always saved" is a false docterine.

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

Or should I have rephrased that statement, not all would understand the Gospel, ie the "unsaved" we read in 1 Corinthians, "For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness, but unto us which are saved it is the power of God" (1 Corinthians 1vs 18)

Fair enough.

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

As I keep on repeating myself again and again, I am not referring to christians who occasionally sin, I am referring to those who have been saved at one point and have since rejected Gods commandment.

.....and WHAT is the difference in God's eyes between a person who 'occasionally sins' and somebody who has 'rejected God's Commandment'???

....answer....NO difference......they are BOTH sinners and deserving of eternal perdition......

.....if they are saved they will be saved from their deserved fate......and if they are not saved they will endure perdition!!

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

Why should Christ continue to save those that have been "saved" that have turned their backs on him i.e. trampled over the cross and put him to shame?

Why does Jesus save sinners at all???
......answer.....He is extending His unmerited mercy to ALL sinners who ask to be saved.

This verse of scripture was addressed to the unsaved who rejected salvation which was paid for them on the cross....and their rejection is described in this verse as trampling over the sacrifice made by Jesus on the cross.

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

You have ommitted the most important part of this verse.."And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity." (More so for those that were consious of their iniquities.)

Saved Christians DON'T work iniquity......which requires demonic possession.

The verse makes it clear that Jesus NEVER knew these people.....and so they NEVER were saved!!!

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

Those that have fellowship with Christ, ie those that are "saved" and continue in Gods plan have no fear of death, those that were "saved" at one point and that have rejected Gods plan face the wrath of God.

That might indeed apply to somebody who was "saved" (in inverted commas)......
but all Saved Christians have the assurance of God for their salvation in Jesus Christ.

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

My own words to describe a "Mortal sin" would be a sin worthy of eternal danmnation, such would be total Christ rejection i.e. not accepting Christ as their saviour. (Unsaved) or failing to follow Gods plan of salvation or obey the Gospel (Saved). Again 2 Thessalonians describes well what a "Mortal sin" is. "In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ" 2 Thessalonians 1 vs8

All sin is an EQUAL affront to a perfectly Holy God.......so He makes no distinction between 'degrees of sin'.

.....and the ONLY way that ANY sinner can be saved is through Jesus Christ and Him crucified!!!

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

If I cannot lose salvation:
1) Why should I ask forgiveness?
2) Why should I repent?
3) Why should I do any works for the kingdom of God?

If you are saved you should do these things out of LOVE (and not fear) of God......and out of love for your (unsaved) fellow man.

There are also (significant) temporal considerations to be taken account of IF you decide to embark/continue with an openly sinful life.

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

For if you cannot lose salvation, then none of the above even applies. Why would God tell us to do something but then turn around and make it sound like none of it has to be done? It's like saying: You can drive the car all you want, but never put fuel in it. Why? Because it's not needed. So why fear God enough to do what He has told us if we are not even going to be judged, or punished for not doing it. Does God speak worthless words? Is God's book a worthless book? If osas is believed, then 90% of God's word would have to be omitted to make it work. Because all punishment for sin has to be omitted.

The good news of salvation IS that the proper punishment for sin HAS indeed been omitted.....for saved Christians!!!!:)

......and saved Christians don't fear God......they love and respect Him ......and He loves them!!!

God doesn't speak worthless words.....and the punishment of God will be just as certainly visited upon the unsaved as His grace will be applied to the saved.

J C

Those that believe "once saved always saved" is a false docterine.

kelly1 wrote: »

Matthew 10:22 And you shall be hated by all men for my name's sake: but he that shall persevere unto the end, he shall be saved.

Clearly salvation can be lost! God doesn't force salvation upon anyone. We have the free will to reject eternal life.

God doen't force salvation upon us.....we must freely believe on Jesus Christ to be saved.

.....and perseverance is a symptom.....and not a cause of salvation.

Run_to_da_hills

Not sure.

J C wrote: »

and WHAT is the difference in God's eyes between a person who 'occasionally sins' and somebody who has 'rejected God's Commandment'???.

The one who "occasionally sins" i in constant fellowship with God, and is convicted of his wrongdoings and confesses his sins regularly. The one who rejects Gods commandment is no longer in fellowship with God, he has hardned his heart and no longer feels remorse for his sins, infact he now has pleasure in unrightiousness, this is the person who is cut off from the vine.

J C wrote: »

Why does Jesus save sinners at all???
......answer.....He is extending His unmerited mercy to ALL sinners who ask to be saved..

We read in Matthew 22vs 14 that "many are called but few are chosen".

J C wrote: »

This verse of scripture was addressed to the unsaved who rejected salvation which was paid for them on the cross....and their rejection is described in this verse as trampling over the sacrifice made by Jesus on the cross.

Absolutly untrue, the unsaved haven't a clue about the "message of the cross", you should know this as a Christian. Again I Quote from Corinthians "For the word of the cross, to them indeed that perish, is foolishness; but to them that are saved, that is, to us, it is the power of God" 1 Corinthians 1vs 18. The Saved have experienced Gods forgiveness through his sacrafice of Christ on the cross, if they backslide they trample over the cross.

J C wrote: »

Saved Christians DON'T work iniquity......which requires demonic possession. The verse makes it clear that Jesus NEVER knew these people.....and so they NEVER were saved!!!

Human nature is human nature, we are given a free will, many saved Christians have fallen by the wayside and have chosen to build their foundations on sand or have had their seeds sewn on rocky soil hence satan has gained a foothold.

J C wrote: »

That might indeed apply to somebody who was "saved" (in inverted commas)......
but all Saved Christians have the assurance of God for their salvation in Jesus Christ. :.

Only provided he endures to the end.

J C wrote: »

All sin is an EQUAL affront to a perfectly Holy God.......so He makes no distinction between 'degrees of sin'.

.....and the ONLY way that ANY sinner can be saved is through Jesus Christ and Him crucified!!!

I agree but there is a contrast between sin and christ rejection.

J C wrote: »

There are also (significant) temporal considerations to be taken account of IF you decide to embark/continue with an openly sinful life.:.

If you are saved and decide to embark/contue with an openly sinful life you are on the wide road to destruction no doubt about it and its consequences are clear, ie eternal damnation and separation from God.

J C wrote: »

The good news of salvation IS that the proper punishment for sin HAS indeed been omitted.....for saved Christians!!!!:) ......and saved Christians don't fear God......they love and respect Him ......and He loves them!!!

God doesn't speak worthless words.....and the punishment of God will be just as certainly visited upon the unsaved as His grace will be applied to the saved.

I agree but disagree that any of Gods grace will be applied to those that were once saved and that have since turned their back on the commandment infact they will recieve greater judgement and condemnation.

J C

Those that believe "once saved always saved" is a false docterine.

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

The one who "occasionally sins" i in constant fellowship with God, and is convicted of his wrongdoings and confesses his sins regularly. The one who rejects Gods commandment is no longer in fellowship with God, he has hardned his heart and no longer feels remorse for his sins, infact he now has pleasure in unrightiousness, this is the person who is cut off from the vine.

.....because he was never saved, in the first place!!!

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

We read in Matthew 22vs 14 that "many are called but few are chosen".

..many sinners are called to repentance and salvation......but few believe on Jesus Christ and are chosen/saved!!!

Originally Posted by J C
This verse of scripture was addressed to the unsaved who rejected salvation which was paid for them on the cross....and their rejection is described in this verse as trampling over the sacrifice made by Jesus on the cross.

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

Absolutly untrue, the unsaved haven't a clue about the "message of the cross", you should know this as a Christian. Again I Quote from Corinthians "For the word of the cross, to them indeed that perish, is foolishness; but to them that are saved, that is, to us, it is the power of God" 1 Corinthians 1vs 18.

The actions of the unsaved rejecting salvation is described by Paul ....and NOT by themselves....as trampling over the sacrifice made by Jesus on the cross!!

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

The Saved have experienced Gods forgiveness through his sacrafice of Christ on the cross, if they backslide they trample over the cross.

Salvation is ETERNAL.....and there is no risk of a Saved Christian renouncing his/her salvation either before of after death!!!

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

Human nature is human nature, we are given a free will, many saved Christians have fallen by the wayside and have chosen to build their foundations on sand or have had their seeds sewn on rocky soil hence satan has gained a foothold.

Jesus Christ is the ROCK of our salvation......anybody 'building on sand' isn't saved.

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

Only provided he endures to the end.

The Saved Christian's salvation is eternal......so s/he WILL endure to the end....and beyond into the next life!!!

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

I agree but there is a contrast between sin and christ rejection.

I agree as well......
....both the saved and the unsaved sin.......
.....and those who reject Jesus Christ remain unsaved!!!

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

If you are saved and decide to embark/contue with an openly sinful life you are on the wide road to destruction no doubt about it and its consequences are clear, ie eternal damnation and separation from God.

.....an openly sinful life may kill you.....or get you excommunicated......but it won't 'unsave' you!!!

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

I agree but disagree that any of Gods grace will be applied to those that were once saved and that have since turned their back on the commandment infact they will recieve greater judgement and condemnation.

....such legalism would be approaching Pharisaical dimensions!!!:)
.....don't be so hard on yourself .....and God!!!

.....get saved.......repent of your sins......TRY to reduce your sinning and TRY to follow His example and His Commandments....and leave the rest to God!!

.....don't worry......be happy......every little thing will be alright......when you are with Jesus Christ.....who is far better!!:D

Run_to_da_hills

Not sure.

J C wrote: »

.....because he was never saved, in the first place!!!
Not so according to
..many sinners are called to repentance and salvation......but few believe on Jesus Christ and are chosen/saved!!!

Again according the parable of the sower (Matthew 13:18-23) many have recieved the word ie "saved" in your contecxt and have failed because they have no foundation. An example of someone being "saved" in your context would be someone given a brand new track machine and according to your theology they will be rewarded whether they put it to use or not.

In reality they have a choice they can either park it up in their back yard and keep it shiney the duration of its life or they can put it to use and profit from it. In order to use it they must put fuel (Their own imput) into it, if they dont it will go nowhere. Likewise as with salvation. One can be initially "saved" and sit on their backside for the rest of their lives without sharing the Gospel.

"For unto every one that hath shall be given, and he shall have abundance: but from him that hath not shall be taken away even that which he hath. And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth". Matthew 25 vs 29

J C wrote: »

This verse of scripture was addressed to the unsaved who rejected salvation which was paid for them on the cross....and their rejection is described in this verse as trampling over the sacrifice made by Jesus on the cross.[/I][/B


The actions of the unsaved rejecting salvation is described by Paul ....and NOT by themselves....as trampling over the sacrifice made by Jesus on the cross!!]

Again the unsaved DO NOT understand the "message of the cross".

J C wrote: »

Salvation is ETERNAL.....and there is no risk of a Saved Christian renouncing his/her salvation either before of after death!!!
Jesus Christ is the ROCK of our salvation......anybody 'building on sand' isn't saved.

I agree Jesus is the "Rock" of our salvation, and the "Rock" of the true church. However when a person is initially saved they must build their own foundation. back to the parable of the sewer. Those saved without proper foundation ie the path or rock are in great danger of losing their salvation.

This is why it is of utmost importance to lead new converts on the right track and give them "spiritual milk" and have them properly grounded in the word of God. Many TV evangelists and crucaides often responsible for sending new converts into the world without any spiritual backup.

J C wrote: »

The Saved Christian's salvation is eternal......so s/he WILL endure to the end....and beyond into the next life!!!

The "Saved" Christian's salvation is eternal damnation if he dose not do the will of God.
"For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it" Matthew 16vs25

J C wrote: »

I agree as well......
....both the saved and the unsaved sin.......
.....and those who reject Jesus Christ remain unsaved!!!
.....an openly sinful life may kill you.....or get you excommunicated......but it won't 'unsave' you!!!

A once "saved" person leading an openly sinful life is a typical symptom of a Backslider who no longer has a conscience and no longer cares for Christ, ie the Christ rejector, the very ones that have "trampled over the cross" I am referring to throughout this whole thread. These are the guys that will be worse off than the unsaved if they don't repent and come back to their senses.

kelly1

Not sure.

Folks, I find this whole OSAS argument silly and entirely without foundation.

e.g. Someone reads Acts 16:31 and says, great, all I have to do is believe and I'm saved. Whoopee! Meanwhile this person is conveniently ignoring (at their peril) verses such as the following:

Matthew 19:17 Who said to him: Why asketh thou me concerning good? One is good, God. But if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.

Luke 13:3 No, I say to you: but unless you shall do penance, you shall all likewise perish.

Matthew 24:13 But he that shall persevere to the end, he shall be saved.

It's dangerous to take one verse and ignore other which complement and complete it.

God bless,
Noel.

Run_to_da_hills

Not sure.

kelly1 wrote: »

Folks, I find this whole OSAS argument silly and entirely without foundation.

e.g. Someone reads Acts 16:31 and says, great, all I have to do is believe and I'm saved. Whoopee! Meanwhile this person is conveniently ignoring (at their peril) verses such as the following:



It's dangerous to take one verse and ignore other which complement and complete it.

God bless,
Noel.

Re Luke 13:3. Any Scholars out there that can translate from the Greek? Penance or Repent?? Two words with two different meanings.

"I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish" (Luke 13:3 KJV)
"No, I say to you: but unless you shall do penance, you shall all likewise perish" (Luke 13:3 Douhay Rheims)

Repent.
1: to turn from sin and dedicate oneself to the amendment of one's life
2 a: to feel regret or contrition b: to change one's mind
transitive verb
1: to cause to feel regret or contrition
2: to feel sorrow, regret, or contrition for
— re·pent·er noun

Penance
1. Repentance.
2. Pain; sorrow; suffering. "Joy or penance he feeleth none."
3. A means of repairing a sin committed, and obtaining pardon for it, consisting partly in the performance of expiatory rites, partly in voluntary submission to a punishment corresponding to the transgression. Penance is the fourth of seven sacraments in the Roman Catholic Church. "And bitter penance, with an iron whip." (Spenser) "Quoth he, "The man hath penance done, And penance more will do."" (Coleridge)

Back to this discussion on OSAS, it is anything but silly, countless millions of souls are damned to hell because of this false docterine.

kelly1

Not sure.

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

Back to this discussion on OSAS, it is anything but silly, countless millions of souls are damned to hell because of this false docterine.

I mean the argument *for* OSAS is silly. I agree with you that salvation isn't guaranteed. But it's not for you or me to judge who's going to Hell but I would say it's a dangerous doctrine.

Run_to_da_hills

Not sure.

kelly1 wrote: »

I mean the argument *for* OSAS is silly. I agree with you that salvation isn't guaranteed. But it's not for you or me to judge who's going to Hell but I would say it's a dangerous doctrine.

I do believe salvation is absolutly guaranteed provided that you.
(A) You are "saved" ie "Born again" in spirit after accepting Christ through faith as your personal saviour.
(B) You abide in Christ and his teachings and endure to the very end. (ie remain a part of that vine as spoken of in John 15:5)

J C

Those that believe "once saved always saved" is a false docterine.

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

Again according the parable of the sower (Matthew 13:18-23) many have recieved the word ie "saved" in your contecxt and have failed because they have no foundation. An example of someone being "saved" in your context would be someone given a brand new track machine and according to your theology they will be rewarded whether they put it to use or not.

"Receiving the Word" is NOT the same as making a personal commitment to Jesus Christ.....and being saved.

Someone who is saved is analagous to somebody who DOESN'T need a track machine because they are now supernaturally thin and fit!!!

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

In reality they have a choice they can either park it up in their back yard and keep it shiney the duration of its life or they can put it to use and profit from it. In order to use it they must put fuel (Their own imput) into it, if they dont it will go nowhere. Likewise as with salvation. One can be initially "saved" and sit on their backside for the rest of their lives without sharing the Gospel.

They COULD 'sit on their backside'........but they DON'T .......because they love God so much that they want to bring the joy of salvation to others......

........salvation is like discovering a fabulous new holiday resort .......and telling all your friends about to.......not because you HAVE to......but because you WANT to tell them!!!:D

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

"For unto every one that hath shall be given, and he shall have abundance: but from him that hath not shall be taken away even that which he hath. And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth". Matthew 25 vs 29

OK.....so everyone "that hath" (salvation) shall be given more of everything.....and everyone "that hath not" (salvation) shall have everything taken away from them......which will certainly happen when they die......and may even happen before they die.....through the fruits of sinful living, for example!!!

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

"I agree Jesus is the "Rock" of our salvation, and the "Rock" of the true church. However when a person is initially saved they must build their own foundation. back to the parable of the sewer. Those saved without proper foundation ie the path or rock are in great danger of losing their salvation.

We CANNOT save ourselves......and we CANNOT build our own foundation....only Jesus can save us and provide us with a foundation for our faith. that WILL last forever.
IF you don't have a proper foundation (by faith in the ROCK that is Jesus) ......you aren't saved!!

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

This is why it is of utmost importance to lead new converts on the right track and give them "spiritual milk" and have them properly grounded in the word of God. Many TV evangelists and crucaides often responsible for sending new converts into the world without any spiritual backup.

The Holy Spirit and the Word of God is sufficient 'spiritual backup' for ALL Saved Christians!!!

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

The "Saved" Christian's salvation is eternal damnation if he dose not do the will of God.

The will of God is that sinners might be saved.....the Saved Christian has ALREADY done the will of God .....by being saved.....and s/he will CONTINUE to do the will of God (to the limits of their Human condition) out of gratitude and love for the God that has saved them!!!

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

"For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it" Matthew 16vs25

.....every Saved Christian has 'died to the World' .....and 'lost' his worldly spiritual life ....when he is saved........and the unsaved remain dead in their sins.

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

A once "saved" person leading an openly sinful life is a typical symptom of a Backslider who no longer has a conscience and no longer cares for Christ, ie the Christ rejector, the very ones that have "trampled over the cross" I am referring to throughout this whole thread. These are the guys that will be worse off than the unsaved if they don't repent and come back to their senses.

.....HOW can anybody be 'worse off' than the unsaved.....who BY DEFINITION are headed for Hell......because they are unsaved from eternal perdition????

.....Salvation is from ETERNAL perdition........and thus salvation, by definition, is itself ETERNAL...

....and HOW can somebody who humbly accepts Jesus Christ's perfect atonement for their sins on the cross be possibly accused of trampling over the very cross that saved them??

......somebody rejecting salvation is rejecting Jesus Christ's perfect atonement for their sins on the cross .....and therefore "trampling over the cross" ....and the blood that was shed upon it......for the remission of THEIR sins!!

J C

Those that believe "once saved always saved" is a false docterine.

kelly1 wrote: »

Folks, I find this whole OSAS argument silly and entirely without foundation.

e.g. Someone reads Acts 16:31 and says, great, all I have to do is believe and I'm saved. Whoopee! Meanwhile this person is conveniently ignoring (at their peril) verses such as the following:

Matthew 19:17 Who said to him: Why asketh thou me concerning good? One is good, God. But if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.

Luke 13:3 No, I say to you: but unless you shall do penance, you shall all likewise perish.

Matthew 24:13 But he that shall persevere to the end, he shall be saved

It's dangerous to take one verse and ignore other which complement and complete it.

God bless,
Noel.

Mt 19:17 confirms that there is NOBODY who is good ......other than God.....so we are ALL sinners......some who are saved and some who aren't.

Lk 13:3 refers to the need to repent and be saved .....while STILL a sinner!!!

Mt 24:13 confirms that perseverence is a symptom .....and the cause of salvation.

Please note that I am NOT advocating that people should lead sinful lives.....far from it..... I am advocating that they turn away from sin.....and obey the Commandments......whether they are saved or not!!!!

I am ALSO warning them that they are ALL sinners in need of God's salvation.....and they must be saved by believing on Jesus Christ!!!

TWO things......avoid sin ......and get saved!!:D:)

.....and don't play into Satan's hands by refusing salvation because you are a sinner!!

J C

Those that believe "once saved always saved" is a false docterine.

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

I do believe salvation is absolutly guaranteed provided that you.
(A) You are "saved" ie "Born again" in spirit after accepting Christ through faith as your personal saviour.
(B) You abide in Christ and his teachings and endure to the very end. (ie remain a part of that vine as spoken of in John 15:5)

So you believe that salvation is ONLY GUARANTEED by believing on Jesus Christ AND living a perfectly virtuous life and/or repenting every second of every day thereafter!!!

This reminds me of the rich young man who approached Jesus and began listing his virtues....and the fact that he obeyed all of the commandments perfectly.....thereby MERITING salvation.

Jesus then showed the young man that he wasn't as virtuous as he thought himself to be.....by asking him to give all he possed to the poor!!!

........and the young man went away unsaved......because he wasn't humble enough to accept that he was a filthy rotten sinner deserving of Hell.....and in need of UNMERITED salvation.....just like me ......and you....and the rest of Humanity!!!

Run_to_da_hills

Not sure.

J C wrote: »

"Receiving the Word" is NOT the same as making a personal commitment to Jesus Christ.....and being saved..

The parable of the sower covers nearly the entire scope of the Bible and all people. It portrays people rejecting God’s Word, to those that receive God’s Word but then fall away, to those that receive God’s Word and bring forth fruit. Many have given their lives to the lord and got "saved" but the cares of the world have caught up on them. http://parentalguide.com/Documents/Spiritual_Warfare/parable_of_the_sower.htm#2-THE%20PARABLE%20OF%20THE%20SOWER

J C wrote: »

"
They COULD 'sit on their backside'........but they DON'T .
because they love God so much that they want to bring the joy of salvation to others..

How do you know they dont?

J C wrote: »

Slvation is like discovering a fabulous new holiday resort .......and telling all your friends about to.......not because you HAVE to......but because you WANT to tell them!!!:D.

I agree but many of those that were saved have soon forgotten about this fabulous holiday resort, the cares of this world have caught up on them. I would say a large majority of "saved" christians sit on their backsides and keep their mouth shut about their salvation. how many "saved" christians do you see handing out Gospel tracts or street preaching in the city? not many, (probably could count the number on my hands) most of these are would be foreign nationals or those that come down from the north. It is God commandment for every Christian to spread the word and every Christian will be judged on what they do. According to Matthew 25 vs 30 those that "sat on their backside" in this life will be cast into outer darkness as unprofitable servants.

J C wrote: »

"
OK.....so everyone who hath (salvation) shall be given more of everything.....and everyone that hath no (salvation) shall have everything taken away from him......which will certainly happen when he dies......and may even happen before he dies through the fruits of sinful living, for example!!!.

Those that got saved and were fruitful will be given more, those that were saved and "sat on their backsides" will have what was given to them taken away. (The unsaved had nothing given to them in the first place so how could anything be taken from them )

J C wrote: »

We CANNOT save ourselves......and we CANNOT build our own foundation....only Jesus can save us and provide us with a firm foundation for our faith.
IF you don't have a proper foundation (by faith in the ROCK that is Jesus) ......you aren't saved!

Again Jesus is the "ROCK" of the Christian church. when someone becomes a new convert it is of upmost importance that they build their own faith on a solid foundation, many new converts have fallen back into the world because their initial foundation was weak, ie built on sand. This is explained in Matthew 7vs24

J C wrote: »

The Holy Spirit is sufficient 'spiritual backup' for ALL Saved Christians!!!

Provided that they remain in Christ.

J C wrote: »

..every Saved Christian has 'died to the World' .....and 'lost' his worldly spiritual life ....when he is saved........and the unsaved remain dead in their sins.

In "theory" yes but in practice many "saved" Christians have been snared by the Devil and have fallen back into the world and have given up their faith.

J C wrote: »

.....HOW can somebody be 'worse off' than the unsaved.....who BY DEFINITION are headed for Hell......because they are unsaved from eternal perdition????

Those that were saved and that "fell back into the world" will be worse off than those that never had a knowledge of God.

J C wrote: »

.Salvation is from ETERNAL perdition........and thus salvation is ETERNAL.....and HOW can somebody who humbly accepts Jesus Christ's perfect atonement for their sins on the cross be possibly accused of trampling over the very cross that saved them, in the first place??

It is hard to believe this can happen but it dose happen and the Bible explains it well when someone backslides and returns to their old vomit.

Run_to_da_hills

Not sure.

J C wrote: »

So you believe that salvation is ONLY GUARANTEED by believing on Jesus Christ AND living a perfectly virtuous life and/or repenting every second of every day thereafter!!!

This reminds me of the rich young man who approached Jesus and began listing his virtues....and the fact that he obeyed all of the commandments perfectly.....thereby MERITING salvation.

Jesus then showed the young man that he wasn't as virtuous as he thought himself to be.....by asking him to give all he possed to the poor!!!

........and the young man went away unsaved......because he wasn't humble enough to accept that he was a filthy rotten sinner deserving of Hell.....and in need of UNMERITED salvation.....just like me ......and you....and the rest of Humanity!!!

I believe that salvation is only guaranteed provided you are born again in spirit and that you submit the rest of your life for Christ. Its as simple as that.

J C

Those that believe "once saved always saved" is a false docterine.

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

I believe that salvation is only guaranteed provided you are born again in spirit and that you submit the rest of your life for Christ. Its as simple as that.

On this we can certainly agree.

Our disagreement primarily centres on what happens when we sin after we are saved.

BTW could I point out that the risk of licence to sin is NOT just confined to the OSAS position.......somebody could calculatingly live a life of debauchery and open sin......and decide to be saved or confess his sin on his deathbed.

......indeed, IF as you maintain, his sin will be judged less harshly because he wasn't saved before/during his debauchery.....this would be the wisest way to live your life.......
.....something like make me pure/save me......but not just yet.....could become 'all the rage'......IF your position is correct!!!!!:D

Run_to_da_hills

Not sure.

J C wrote: »

On this we can certainly agree.

The only thing we actually disagree on is what happens after we are saved and we sin.

When we are saved and we sin, no probs, just confess your sin. The problem starts when you dont confess it and it builds up, you then refuse to submit yourself to God. If you refuse to submit to God there is only one other person you are submitting to and that is Satan! :eek:

We read in James 4vs7 "Submit yourselves therefore to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you".

J C wrote: »

Could I also point out that potential licence to sin is NOT confined to the OSAS position.......somebody could calculatingly live a life of debauchery and open sin......and decide to be saved or confess his sin on his deathbed.
.

Very dangerous thing to do, so many saved and unsaved use Satans prime trump card of "putting it off" ie "Ill wait till my death bed and ill make it right with God", then that person has a heart attack or get killed in a crash and ends up dead in his sin. A saved person must consider Christ in every single deed and action if he dose not he has a serious problem with his faith and would want to make it right with God immediatly. When I first got saved I could not go 5 minutes of the day without thinking of Christ, When I backslid for over 10 years Christ was completly out of my mind.

CommandoJack

risking seeming troll-ish... since when was it a doctrine? =/

J C

Those that believe "once saved always saved" is a false docterine.

Originally Posted by J C
On this we can certainly agree.

The only thing we actually disagree on is what happens after we are saved and we sin.

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

When we are saved and we sin, no probs, just confess your sin. The problem starts when you dont confess it and it builds up, you then refuse to submit yourself to God. If you refuse to submit to God there is only one other person you are submitting to and that is Satan! :eek:

We read in James 4vs7 "Submit yourselves therefore to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you".

The saved DO submit to God.....and they try to avoid sin.......
......but they also sin....and anybody (saved or unsaved) who says that he isn't a sinner is a liar.

Eternal salvation is a separate issue.....and surprise, surprise......it is determined by whether you are saved or not.:D


Originally Posted by J C
Could I also point out that potential licence to sin is NOT confined to the OSAS position.......somebody could calculatingly live a life of debauchery and open sin......and decide to be saved or confess his sin on his deathbed.

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

Very dangerous thing to do, so many saved and unsaved use Satans prime trump card of "putting it off" ie "Ill wait till my death bed and ill make it right with God", then that person has a heart attack or get killed in a crash and ends up dead in his sin. A saved person must consider Christ in every single deed and action if he dose not he has a serious problem with his faith and would want to make it right with God immediatly. When I first got saved I could not go 5 minutes of the day without thinking of Christ, When I backslid for over 10 years Christ was completly out of my mind.

I agree that it is very dangerous to put off being saved......you might not get the chance if you died suddenly, for example.

However, IF somebody's sins after salvation ARE going to be judged more harshly than those of the unsaved, (as you claim)......then most people will not risk becoming saved ....until they are on the point of death.

Of course, with OSAS there is no such impediment.....Jesus will save you .....and ALL your sins will be forgiven via His perfect atonement.

It is advisable to avoid sin.....and to continuously repent of any sins that you commit.......
.....but, either way, once you are saved.....you are saved!!!:D

.....and that is why Jesus confidently told us to 'come ye who are heavily burdened and I will give you rest'....
.....could I point out that you would have little rest if ALL your sins weren't forgiven.....or if you had to continuously worry over whether you had properly repented of EVERY sin that you had committed.

I have met older people, in particular, who were literally scared out of their wits, at the possibility of dying in sin.....because they knew that they had forgotten most of their sins.....and therefore hadn't repented of ALL their sins individually!!!

.....and the only known antidote to such needless misery is to be saved once....and forever!!!:D

.....and that is also why we refer to the 'good news' of salvation......there wouldn't be much 'good' about a conditional salvation that was effectively impossible for us to achieve in our present sinful state.......and which would keep the nominally "saved" in a permanent state of high anxiety over their eventual fate!!:D
.....in a lot of ways they would be worse off than the unsaved !!!!

Run_to_da_hills

Not sure.

J C wrote: »

The only thing we actually disagree on is what happens after we are saved and we sin. [/I][/B]
The saved DO submit to God.....and they try to avoid sin.......
......but they also sin....and anybody (saved or unsaved) who says that he isn't a sinner is a liar.!!!!

Ill sumerise my point, Its not a question of how many sins are accumilated to become "unsaved" its in the heart, when a person is "saved" they become a "desciple" or "Priest" for Christ, (Noel may have an issue with this one ) they are given a task for the rest of their lives to serve Christ and preach the Gospel. If they fail on this one they become whats known as "unprofitible servents".

J C wrote: »

Could I also point out that potential licence to sin is NOT confined to the OSAS position.......somebody could calculatingly live a life of debauchery and open sin......and decide to be saved or confess his sin on his deathbed.[/I].

Any saved person who intentionally sins is putting God to the test, it is a very dangerous thing. When a saved person sins they can become weaker by gaving Satan a wedge, there is also the danger that they could become a "slave" to that sin.

J C wrote: »

I agree that it is very dangerous to put off being saved......you might not get the chance if you died suddenly, for example.

However, IF somebody's sins after salvation ARE going to be judged more harshly than those of the unsaved, (as you claim)......then most people will not risk becoming saved ....until they are on the point of death.

Jack Chick has an excellent tract based on those that put off their salvation. http://www.chick.com/reading/tracts/0009/0009_01.aspPutting off salvation is also mentioned in luke 12 vs 19 and 20.

J C wrote: »

Of course, with OSAS there is no such impediment.....Jesus will save you .....and ALL your sins will be forgiven via His perfect atonement.

It is advisable to avoid sin.....and to continuously repent of any sins that you commit.but, either way, once you are saved.....you are saved!!!:D

Thats what Satan will tell you! When a person is "saved", their sins are forgiven up to that point, His future sins are not forgiven unless he is in fellowship with Christ, if he backslides into sin he is condemed.

J C wrote: »

I have met older people, in particular, who were literally scared out of their wits, at the possibility of dying in sin.....because they knew that they had forgotten most of their sins.....and therefore hadn't repented of ALL their sins individually!!!

These older people you met had either backslidden or were not walking with Christ in the first place because If they were they would have an understanding for 1 John 1 vs 9. "If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness". ALL means ALL.

J C

Those that believe "once saved always saved" is a false docterine.

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

Ill sumerise my point, Its not a question of how many sins are accumilated to become "unsaved" its in the heart, when a person is "saved" they become a "desciple" or "Priest" for Christ, (Noel may have an issue with this one ) they are given a task for the rest of their lives to serve Christ and preach the Gospel. If they fail on this one they become whats known as "unprofitible servents".

'Once a priest ALWAYS a priest'!!!:D:)

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

Any saved person who intentionally sins is putting God to the test, it is a very dangerous thing. When a saved person sins they can become weaker by gaving Satan a wedge, there is also the danger that they could become a "slave" to that sin.

Somebody DEMANDING or ASSUMING that God will do their bidding ....is putting God to the test......and no Saved person will do so!!!

The sinful bodies of BOTH the saved and the unsaved CAN become a slave to sin.....addiction is an obvoius example.

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

These older people you met had either backslidden or were not walking with Christ in the first place because If they were they would have an understanding for 1 John 1 vs 9. "If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness". ALL means ALL.

These people were NEVER saved.......and in many cases they refused to accept that they needed to be saved......and they put ALL of their effort into trying to remember their sins......while simultaneously worrying that they had forgotten some sins ......or would commit more sins before they died!!!!

......and believing on Jesus Christ to save you .....from ALL your sins .....is the only know antidiote to such worrying!!:D:)

Run_to_da_hills

Not sure.

J C wrote: »

'Once a priest ALWAYS a priest'!!!:D:)

Maybe according to the Roman Catholic Religion

J C wrote: »

Somebody DEMANDING or ASSUMING that God will do their bidding ....is putting God to the test......and no Saved person will do so!!!

Anytime a "saved" person knowingly commits a sin he is not alone putting God to the test but he is also giving a prise bar to satan to gain a foothold in his life and he will. It is Satans goal to try to destroy the faith of every Christian on this planet and no doubt he will do anything in his power to do so. Christ was well able for satans tactics as was shown when he was tempted for 40 days on the mount.
It is written. "Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil walks about like a roaring lion, seeking whom he may devour" 1 Peter 5vs8. Again it is only those that endure to the end that are saved.

J C wrote: »

The sinful bodies of BOTH the saved and the unsaved CAN become a slave to sin.....addiction is an obvoius example.

If a weaker "saved" person has an addiction whether its sexual immorality or drink, who is now the lord over their life? I doubt if it is Christ. Any "saved" Christian who has an addiction would want to seriously examine their faith because they are back on the wide road again (Did you read that tract? "the long trip?" http://www.chick.com/reading/tracts/0009/0009_01.asp This tract would apply to unsaved and the once Bornagain believer that has gone astray from the narrow road.

J C wrote: »

These people were NEVER saved.......and in many cases they refused to accept that they needed to be saved......and they put ALL of their effort into trying to remember their sins......while simultaneously worrying that they had forgotten some sins ......or would commit more sins before they died!!!!

......and believing on Jesus Christ to save you .....from ALL your sins .....is the only know antidiote to such worrying!!:D:)

Anyone who is living for Christ has no fear of loosing their salvation. "There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit". Roms 8:1-4 Remember that the Backslider once walked according to the spirit but no longer, he is now walking according to the flesh and is no longer living for christ.

J C

Those that believe "once saved always saved" is a false docterine.

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

Anytime a "saved" person knowingly commits a sin he is not alone putting God to the test but he is also giving a prise bar to satan to gain a foothold in his life and he will. It is Satans goal to try to destroy the faith of every Christian on this planet and no doubt he will do anything in his power to do so. Christ was well able for satans tactics as was shown when he was tempted for 40 days on the mount.
It is written. "Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil walks about like a roaring lion, seeking whom he may devour" 1 Peter 5vs8.

You can put our long-suffering God to the test, by delaying being saved ....or by assuming/demanding that God will do what YOU want.

.....Satan is the adversary of Christians for the souls of the unsaved ......whom he may devour!!!

The saved elect are of God .....and not of Satan!!!

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

If a weaker "saved" person has an addiction whether its sexual immorality or drink, who is now the lord over their life? I doubt if it is Christ. Any "saved" Christian who has an addiction would want to seriously examine their faith because they are back on the wide road again (Did you read that tract? "the long trip?" http://www.chick.com/reading/tracts/0009/0009_01.asp This tract would apply to unsaved and the once Bornagain believer that has gone astray from the narrow road.

The sinful bodies of BOTH the saved and the unsaved CAN become a slave to sin.....and serious temporal consequences MAY follow .....so it is a good idea for an addict to avoid the object of his addiction.....just like it is a good idea for a diabetic to avoid sugar......but taking sugar or drink won't 'unsave' you....and you shouldn't do it ......because it will sicken you!!!!:)

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

Anyone who is living for Christ has no fear of loosing their salvation. "There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit". Roms 8:1-4 Remember that the Backslider once walked according to the spirit but no longer, he is now walking according to the flesh and is no longer living for christ.

All your 'ifs, buts and maybes' (in relation to salvation) reminds me of a story I once heard about a woman who was getting married....and when asked by the minister if she would 'take this man as her wedded husband'......she replied "I do but..."
After a short adjournment, matters were resolved and the wedding went ahead without any further 'buts'......and as far as I know they lived 'happily ever after'.

There are NO 'buts' in the life-long Christian wedding commitment.....and there are no 'buts' in our eternal commitment to the Lord either........once saved always saved..............and once married always married while they both shall live !!!:)

Run_to_da_hills

Not sure.

J C wrote: »

You can put our long-suffering God to the test, by delaying being saved ....or by assuming/demanding that God will do what YOU want. Satan is the adversary of Christians for the souls of the unsaved whom he may devour!!!

And the "Saved" who who spit in the face of God by failing to take up the commandment after their initial call.

J C wrote: »

The saved elect are of God .....and not of Satan!!

Only those that remain a part of the vine and endure to the very end.

J C wrote: »

The sinful bodies of BOTH the saved and the unsaved CAN become a slave to sin.....and serious temporal consequences MAY follow .

That serious consequence is eternal danmnation and separation from God. There is no in between with God, there is no luke warm, you are either "hot" or "cold" "So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth". Revelation 3vs16. .

J C wrote: »

so it is a good idea for an addict to avoid the object of his addiction.....just like it is a good idea for a diabetic to avoid sugar......but taking sugar or drink won't 'unsave' you....and you shouldn't do it ......because it will sicken you!!!!:).

When someone recieves Christ they become a new creature, they recieve the Holy spirit, old habits are broken, when they backslide they loose this and the old habits return like the dog returning to its vomit and they are worse off that before they were "saved".

J C wrote: »

All your 'ifs, buts and maybes' (in relation to salvation) reminds me of a story I once heard about a woman who was getting married....and when asked by the minister if she would 'take this man as her wedded husband'......she replied "I do but..."
After a short adjournment, matters were resolved and the wedding went ahead without any further 'buts'......and as far as I know they lived 'happily ever after'.

There are NO 'buts' in the life-long Christian wedding commitment.....and there are no 'buts' in our eternal commitment to the Lord either........once saved always saved..............and once married always married while they both shall live !!!:)

God is the faithful and Just part of this "eternal wedding committment", If there is going to be a "devorce" or "separation" it will be on mans part because of sin which separates us from God.

J C

Those that believe "once saved always saved" is a false docterine.

Originally Posted by Run_to_da_hills
Ill sumerise my point, Its not a question of how many sins are accumilated to become "unsaved" its in the heart, when a person is "saved" they become a "desciple" or "Priest" for Christ, (Noel may have an issue with this one).

Originally Posted by J C
'Once a priest ALWAYS a priest'!!!

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

Maybe according to the Roman Catholic Religion

.....and ALSO according to Heb 7:17 For he testifieth, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec.:)

J C

Those that believe "once saved always saved" is a false docterine.

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

And the "Saved" who who spit in the face of God by failing to take up the commandment after their initial call.

I'm glad that you have put the word "Saved" in inverted commas......because somebody who would "spit in the face of God" certainly NEVER was saved!!!:D

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

Revelation 3vs16. .When someone recieves Christ they become a new creature, they recieve the Holy spirit, old habits are broken, when they backslide they loose this and the old habits return like the dog returning to its vomit and they are worse off that before they were "saved".

......once again I'm glad that you have put the word "saved" in inverted commas......because somebody who would "return like the dog to its vomit" certainly NEVER was saved!!!:D

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

God is the faithful and Just part of this "eternal wedding committment", If there is going to be a "devorce" or "separation" it will be on mans part because of sin which separates us from God.

Heb 10:14-17 puts the issue (that the saved are saved forever) beyond all doubt:-
For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified. Whereof the Holy Ghost also is a witness to us: for after that he had said before,
This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;
And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.

wolfsbane

Those that believe "once saved always saved" is a false docterine.

CommandoJack wrote: »

risking seeming troll-ish... since when was it a doctrine? =/

Since it was written in Scripture.

But since that time, the doctrine that those who are truly saved cannot be lost is found in various places, e.g. Augustine, Calvin, the various Reformed confessions. All the Reformed Churches are supposed to believe it, but as you may know, many churches today no longer hold to their founding articles.

In Ireland, all the Irish Baptist churches hold to it; as do the Evangelical Presbyterians, Reformed Presbyterians, Free Presbyterians, the Brethren, many of the evangelical wings of the Presbyterian and C of I, and several smaller groups.

Run_to_da_hills

Not sure.

J C wrote: »

I'm glad that you have put the word "Saved" in inverted commas......because somebody who would "spit in the face of God" certainly NEVER was saved!!!:D They do worse, ie they put Christ to shame. Hebrews 6vs6.......once again I'm glad that you have put the word "saved" in inverted commas......because somebody who would "return like the dog to its vomit" certainly NEVER was saved!!!:D

You are not truely saved until you enure to the end. You may initially receive the Holy Spirit, and be as you call "saved", I would prefere to call this the "enlightement" or the "initial calling". Wo be tied if you receive this call ignore it thus fall back into the ways of the world

J C wrote: »

Heb 10:14-17 puts the issue (that the saved are saved forever) beyond all doubt:-
For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified. Whereof the Holy Ghost also is a witness to us: for after that he had said before,
This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;
And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.

Sins and iniquities up to the point of their initial calling, after that they will be more judged than the unsaved. Its up to those that received their initial calling to choose the narrow road that leads to salvation, if they fall back into sin again they are back on the wide road and will end up danmed!

wolfsbane wrote: »

Since it was written in Scripture. In Ireland, all the Irish Baptist churches hold to it; as do the Evangelical Presbyterians, Reformed Presbyterians, Free Presbyterians, the Brethren, many of the evangelical wings of the Presbyterian and C of I, and several smaller groups.

Basically most churches have inherrited this poison off OSAS from John Calvan and not from the Bible. Again.......Eternal security implies a 'license' to sin without consequences

If have diabetes or low blood sugar. If I eat something sweet I have a few minutes of pleasure followed by hours of headache, fatigue, and pain. I don't eat sweets because the price I pay afterwards is just too great. So it is with drunkenness, drug abuse, sexual sin, lying, cheating, stealing, outburst of anger, jealousy, envy, strife, etc. sin just isn't worth it. sin never pays and when left unrepentant will eventually lead to Death and spiritual danmnation and separation from God to both those that were Once Enlightened who Backslid and the unsaved.

J C

Those that believe "once saved always saved" is a false docterine.

Originally Posted by J C
Heb 10:14-17 puts the issue (that the saved are saved forever) beyond all doubt:-
For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified. Whereof the Holy Ghost also is a witness to us: for after that he had said before,
This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;
And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

Sins and iniquities up to the point of their initial calling, after that they will be more judged than the unsaved. Its up to those that received their initial calling to choose the narrow road that leads to salvation, if they fall back into sin again they are back on the wide road and will end up danmed!

What does the following words mean "perfected for ever them that are sanctified" ???

What does the following words mean "this is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them" ???

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

Basically most churches have inherrited this poison off OSAS from John Calvan and not from the Bible. Again.......Eternal security implies a 'license' to sin without consequences

If have diabetes or low blood sugar. If I eat something sweet I have a few minutes of pleasure followed by hours of headache, fatigue, and pain. I don't eat sweets because the price I pay afterwards is just too great. So it is with drunkenness, drug abuse, sexual sin, lying, cheating, stealing, outburst of anger, jealousy, envy, strife, etc. sin just isn't worth it. sin never pays and when left unrepentant will eventually lead to Death and spiritual danmnation and separation from God to both those that were Once Enlightened who Backslid and the unsaved.

EVERYONE has free will .....and thus 'licence' to sin........but there ARE consequences!!

Sin brings eternal damnation to the unsaved........and temporal punishment up to and including death to BOTH the saved and the unsaved!!!

If you have diabetes and eat something sweet you will suffer the temporal consequences whether you are saved or unsaved......and you will STILL suffer the temporal consequences even if you repent!!!!:)
You have free will and thus 'license' to eat sugar.....but it makes no sense to do so, if you are a diabetic.......

......equally, debilitating yourself through sin makes no sense .....whether you are saved or unsaved........and you ALSO have a special duty towards God to avoid sin and scandal .....if you are saved!!!:D

.....so if you are unsaved you shouldn't sin out of fear (for the temporal and eternal consequences)......
.......and if you are saved you shouldn't sin out of fear (for the temporal consequences) and out of love (for Jesus Christ)!!!:D

....and could I point out that the 'non-OSAS' position also has 'licence' to sin....and being subsequently forgiven by repentance and/or confession to a priest!!!!

J C

Those that believe "once saved always saved" is a false docterine.

CommandoJack wrote: »

risking seeming troll-ish... since when was it (eternal security) a doctrine?

wolfsbane wrote: »

Since it was written in Scripture.

But since that time, the doctrine that those who are truly saved cannot be lost is found in various places, e.g. Augustine, Calvin, the various Reformed confessions. All the Reformed Churches are supposed to believe it, but as you may know, many churches today no longer hold to their founding articles.

In Ireland, all the Irish Baptist churches hold to it; as do the Evangelical Presbyterians, Reformed Presbyterians, Free Presbyterians, the Brethren, many of the evangelical wings of the Presbyterian and C of I, and several smaller groups.

.......sounds like just about everybody except the 'catholic-type theology' churches (like Roman Catholics and Orthodox as well as some Anglicans and Lutherans) hold to OSAS!!!!:D

......so apparently, you still hold to a 'catholic-type theology' on this issue, RTDH????

Soul Winner

Hey JC. Even the elect can be deceived. Don't be one of them. "For false Christs and false prophets shall rise, and shall shew signs and wonders, to seduce, if it were possible, even the elect." Mark 13:22. It is possible to draw back from the faith. All you have to do is believe a false doctrine like the Galatians or just give up acting in faith on God's Word and trust in your own righteousness. Paul talks about it to the Galatians. Starting in the Spirit and ending in the flesh.

Galatians 3:3
Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?

Habakkuk 2:4
Behold, his soul which is lifted up is not upright in him: but the just shall live by his faith.

Hebrews 10:38
Now the just shall live by faith: but if any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him.

Revelation 2:7
He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God.

Revelation 2:10
Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer: behold, the devil shall cast some of you into prison, that ye may be tried; and ye shall have tribulation ten days: be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life.

Revelation 2:11
He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death.

Revelation 2:17
He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the hidden manna, and will give him a white stone, and in the stone a new name written, which no man knoweth saving he that receiveth it.

Revelation 2:26
And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations:

If your name is written in the book of life then how can it be possible for Jesus to blot it out for not over coming this world? See below:

Revelation 3:5
He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment, ;and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.

Blotted out of the book of life? Your argument is that if you are once saved (i.e. name written in the book of life) then you are always saved. Not according to Rev 3:5 your not. You need to overcome first.


Revelation 3:12
Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.

Revelation 3:21
To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.

Revelation 21:7
He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son.

Revelation 12:11
And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.

While you are acting in faith on this side of eternity you are seen as absolutely saved in the eyes of God but you must keep that connection alive by continuing that action. Just like the way you need to keep a kettle plugged into the source of electricity for it to boil, once you disconnect it it will stop boiling. We are not sanctified wholly until we get over there, so until we get there we must keep acting in faith everyday. The promise is as thy day so shall thy strength be and today if you here is voice harden not your heart. It is always today, it is never tomorrow so while it is called today we must act on the promises of God. If we were once saved always saved then why would Paul need to write letters to Churches to admonish them and keep them on track? Why was it only after he could say that he had finished his course and kept the faith that there was a crown of righteousness laid up for him?

II Timothy 4:7-8
I have fought a good fight, I have finished my course, I have kept the faith: Henceforth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give me at that day: and not to me only, but unto all them also that love his appearing.

You can’t love His appearing if you are not acting in faith and acting in faith is a daily action not a once off action. You stop acting in faith and you grieve the spirit away.

Genesis 6:3
And the LORD said, My spirit shall not always strive with man.

You can grieve the spirit.

Ephesians 4:30
And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.

Only sealed if you keep the connection of faith. God is faithful and will keep you, but you must trust in His Word. That’s what building on Jesus means. Building on a rock.

Demas was one of Paul’s fellow labourers but he fell away.

Philemon 1:24
Marcus, Aristarchus, Demas, Lucas, my fellowlabourers.

2 Timothy 4:10
For Demas hath forsaken me, having loved this present world, and is departed unto Thessalonica; Crescens to Galatia, Titus unto Dalmatia.

So keep the faith bro

Run_to_da_hills

Not sure.

J C wrote: »

.......sounds like just about everybody except the 'catholic-type theology' churches (like Roman Catholics and Orthodox as well as some Anglicans and Lutherans) hold to OSAS!!!!:D

......so apparently, you still hold to a 'catholic-type theology' on this issue, RTDH????

Nope, I have gone through this with you before. The Catholic type theology on this issue is that one is "saved" at baptism and that they must endure to the end by following the traditions and teachings of the Roman Catholic Church.

I believe one is only "saved" through repentance and accepting Christ in faith and enduring to the end by obeying the Gospel. (2 Thessalonians 1vs8).

J C

Those that believe "once saved always saved" is a false docterine.

Soul Winner wrote: »

Hey JC. Even the elect can be deceived. Don't be one of them. "For false Christs and false prophets shall rise, and shall shew signs and wonders, to seduce, if it were possible, even the elect." Mark 13:22.

Touché!!!

Please read the above verse again.......it indicates that the end times delusion will be so strong that it would seduce even the Elect IF IT WERE POSSIBLE......and the clear import of the use of the word "IF" in the context of the sentence is that it wouldn't actually be possible to mislead the Elect.....but the Anti-Christ forces would make a very serious and convincing attempt to do so....and ONLY the Elect will recognise what they are up to!!!!

Soul Winner wrote: »

It is possible to draw back from the faith. All you have to do is believe a false doctrine like the Galatians or just give up acting in faith on God's Word and trust in your own righteousness. Paul talks about it to the Galatians. Starting in the Spirit and ending in the flesh.

It is possible to draw back and refuse salvation......but it is not possible for the truly saved to lose their salvation!!!

Soul Winner wrote: »

Galatians 3:3
Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?

I have never said that the saved are perfected by the flesh......in fact I have consitently pointed out that they are ACTUALLY sinners by the flesh.....even though they are saved by faith!!!!

Soul Winner wrote: »

Habakkuk 2:4
Behold, his soul which is lifted up is not upright in him: but the just shall live by his faith.

NOBODY is upright.....we are ALL sinners.....but the saved are made upright in God's eyes by being saved through believing on Jesus Christ's perfect atonement for ALL of their sin!!!

Soul Winner wrote: »

Hebrews 10:38
Now the just shall live by faith: but if any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him.

The unsaved can draw back from salvation.......and if the saved draw back from proclaiming Jesus Christ and Him crucified, God will be displeased......but He won't break His saving covenant with the person involved.

Soul Winner wrote: »

Revelation 2:7
He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God.

......ALL of the saved shall ovecometh the forces of evil ......and will live forever with God!!!!

Soul Winner wrote: »

Revelation 2:10
Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer: behold, the devil shall cast some of you into prison, that ye may be tried; and ye shall have tribulation ten days: be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life.

.....the saved will ALL be faithful unto death......because they are saved forever!!!!

Soul Winner wrote: »

Revelation 2:11
He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death.

......s/he who is saved ALSO will overcometh.....and because they are saved they shall not be subject to the second death in Hell.

Soul Winner wrote: »

Revelation 2:17
He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the hidden manna, and will give him a white stone, and in the stone a new name written, which no man knoweth saving he that receiveth it.

....s/he who is saved overcometh.....and has a 'direct line' to God via the indwelling of the Holy Spirit in them.

Soul Winner wrote: »

Revelation 2:26
And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations:

.....keeping Gods word and His works to the end is the PROOF that somebody IS saved.....and NOT the CAUSE of their salvation!!!

Soul Winner wrote: »

If your name is written in the book of life then how can it be possible for Jesus to blot it out for not over coming this world? See below:

Revelation 3:5
He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment, ;and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.

God is omniscient and knows EVERYBODY who is going to be saved already and their names are written in the book of life .....and that is another reason why we are OSAS!!!

Soul Winner wrote: »

Blotted out of the book of life? Your argument is that if you are once saved (i.e. name written in the book of life) then you are always saved. Not according to Rev 3:5 your not. You need to overcome first.

Rev 3:5 states that the saved WILL overcome....because they are saved......NO Human is capable of overcoming on their own merits....or with their own works!!!
....we can ONLY overcome through our salvation in Jesus Christ

Soul Winner wrote: »

Revelation 3:12
Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.

Revelation 3:21
To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.

Revelation 21:7
He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son.

....effectively you can replace the word 'overcome' with 'is saved'.....and read the verses again.....because ONLY the saved have the power to become Children of God .....and overcome Satan and his minions!!!

Soul Winner

J C wrote: »

....effectively you can replace the word 'overcome' with 'is saved'.....and read the verses again.....because ONLY the saved have the power to become Children of God .....and overcome Satan and his minions!!!

The saved haven't got any power in and of themselves to be saved. They need God to empower them by the indwelling of the Holy Spirit and that can only come when they trust in Him.

John 15:5
I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing

Literally nothing at all. We can't even have faith without Him. He even gives us the capacity to have faith.

Romans 12:3
For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith.

It's what we do with that faith that’s important. We can either put it in Him or put it in ourselves or this world. That’s the only freedom we have.

Matthew 16:26
For what is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul? or what shall a man give in exchange for his soul?

If we are once saved always saved then why would we need to overcome? Doesn't make sense. If you are drowning and someone throws you a life saving rope and starts to pull you to safety and you let go of the rope how can they save you? We are being saved by faith, we are not ACTUALLY saved until we ACTUALLY overcome. That hasn't happened yet and it is possible to fall away before it does all we have to do is to let go of the faith rope that He has thrown us.

Hebrews 2
Therefore we ought to give the more earnest heed to the things which we have heard, lest at any time we should let them slip. For if the word spoken by angels was stedfast, and every transgression and disobedience received a just recompence of reward; How shall we escape, if we neglect so great salvation; which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed unto us by them that heard him;

J C

Those that believe "once saved always saved" is a false docterine.

Soul Winner wrote: »

While you are acting in faith on this side of eternity you are seen as absolutely saved in the eyes of God but you must keep that connection alive by continuing that action. Just like the way you need to keep a kettle plugged into the source of electricity for it to boil, once you disconnect it it will stop boiling.

......they saved ARE permanently 'plugged into the source'......by being saved and indwelt by the Holy Spirit!!!

.....and saved people ARE 'burning' to proclaim the Word of God.....to whomever will listen!!

Soul Winner wrote: »

We are not sanctified wholly until we get over there, so until we get there we must keep acting in faith everyday. The promise is as thy day so shall thy strength be and today if you here is voice harden not your heart. It is always today, it is never tomorrow so while it is called today we must act on the promises of God. If we were once saved always saved then why would Paul need to write letters to Churches to admonish them and keep them on track? Why was it only after he could say that he had finished his course and kept the faith that there was a crown of righteousness laid up for him?

....for the simple reason that Paul could ONLY get his reward in Heaven.....when he arrived in Heaven.....i.e. AFTER he died!!

Soul Winner wrote: »

II Timothy 4:7-8
I have fought a good fight, I have finished my course, I have kept the faith: Henceforth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give me at that day: and not to me only, but unto all them also that love his appearing.

You can’t love His appearing if you are not acting in faith and acting in faith is a daily action not a once off action. You stop acting in faith and you grieve the spirit away.

.......of course the saved act in faith.......and live exemplary lives.....and DON'T live in open sin.....BUT they ARE sinners in sinful bodies nonetheless!!!

Soul Winner wrote: »

Genesis 6:3
And the LORD said, My spirit shall not always strive with man.

You can grieve the spirit.

....the unsaved grieve God's Spirit.....and God was warning that His patience was about to run out with Mankind in Gen 6:3.....and Noah's Flood was the result!!

Soul Winner wrote: »

Ephesians 4:30
And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.

Only sealed if you keep the connection of faith. God is faithful and will keep you, but you must trust in His Word. That’s what building on Jesus means. Building on a rock.

...."sealed unto the day of redemption"......sounds BOTH certain and permanent to me!!!!

Soul Winner wrote: »

Demas was one of Paul’s fellow labourers but he fell away.

Philemon 1:24
Marcus, Aristarchus, Demas, Lucas, my fellowlabourers.

2 Timothy 4:10
For Demas hath forsaken me, having loved this present world, and is departed unto Thessalonica; Crescens to Galatia, Titus unto Dalmatia.

Demas forsook PAUL......and NOT Jesus Christ !!!

Soul Winner wrote: »

So keep the faith bro

I will keep the faith.....why do you think that I strive for Jesus.....and take insults as compliments ......both on this thread....and the mega-thread on Creationism and prophecy???!!!

....and I have yet to see almost any other Christians defend their faith effectively against the Skeptics over on that thread......
.....or even come to my defence when the Skeptics advocated that Creationists should lose their jobs as practicing conventional scientists!!!

Soul Winner

J C wrote: »

....for the simple reason that Paul could ONLY get his reward in Heaven.....when he arrived in Heaven.....i.e. AFTER he died!!

Yes and he had to keep the faith until then.

J C wrote: »

....the unsaved grieve God's Spirit.....and God was warning that His patience was about to run out with Mankind in Gen 6:3.....and Noah's Flood was the result!!

God's Word is forever settled in heaven and His spirit can still be grieved. Not putting your faith in Him grieves Him the most not sin. He hates sin but loves the sinner. Sin is not the issue anymore because He dealt with that on the cross. It’s all about faith now not perfection. I know you are not implying that it is but saying that you accept Jesus once in your life is not going to pass muster with God. It should be done daily and when a circumstance in your life hits you that contradict God's promises then you must all the more grab hold of His promises by speaking them forth.

2 Corinthians 1:20
For all the promises of God in him are yea, and in him Amen, unto the glory of God by us.

The above verse gives us license to claim all God's promises if we need to.

Hebrews 11:1
Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

The above verse teaches that we substantiate God's promises by faith. They become reality through faith action in the promise being seized. No point in claiming His promise to heal you if you're not sick and no point in claiming the promise that He will provided if you have a healthy bank account and so on. The promise must be for something that you do not actually have in reality and when it is obtained by continued faith (i.e. healing for sickness and provision when needy etc) action in the promises for God that defies your circumstance. The verse below teaches this very thing.

Romans 8:24
...but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for?

J C wrote: »

"sealed unto the day of redemption"......sounds BOTH certain and permanent to me!!!!

It is, but my point is that you can slip away from it by ceasing the aforementioned trusting action in God's Word. This must be maintained daily until death.

J C wrote: »

Demas forsook TIMOTHY......and NOT Jesus Christ !!!

He actually forsook the Apostle Paul and loved the world more than His calling to minister with Paul. It was Paul who wrote 2 Timothy not Timothy himself.

J C wrote: »

I will keep the faith.....why do you think that I strive for Jesus.....and take insults as compliments ......both on this thread....and the mega-thread on Creationism and prophecy???!!!

A truly humble man does not look back to see if he was. I get that myself and couldn't care less what anyone thinks of me when it comes to Christianity. The world hated Jesus as well and we are no greater than the master.

J C wrote: »

....and I have yet to see almost any other Christians defend their faith effectively against the Skeptics over on that thread......
.....or even come to my assistance when the Skeptics advocated that Creationists should lose their jobs as practicing conventional scientists!!!

That thread was going for years before I joined Boards, so for me to make a comment without actually reading all of it would be a bit rich of me. There’s over 400 pages of posts in that thread :eek: I have started it though and thought your opening arguments are very interesting and very well made. You obviously know what you are talking about when it comes to the subject. I've started a few threads of my own in the A+A forum itself and found out very quickly that I do not know enough (yet) about the subject to have a considered opinion. As Wicknight and others pointed out in those threads, to argue about evolution and science one must understand what they are first, I had to stand down because I ran out of material to support what I saying and no one else had any other input except for the pro-evolutionists, so I know how you feel there. But I do still have questions about evolution but I will not pretend to know what I’m talking about when I don’t. Need to get both sides of the argument straight before taking sides. I personally do not believe in evolution as being the process by which all living things derived. And that’s not because I’m a Christian. Even if I wasn’t a Christian I would still have the same questions about the theory of evolution. A lot of atheists seem to latch onto evolution as a club to bash religious people with more than because they really believe in it themselves.

And for what its worth. I don’t believe that Creationists should loose their jobs as conventional scientists simply because they are Creationists, they should loose them for being bad scientists as should non-Creationist scientists. So we would need to define what a Scientist is before we can adjudge someone as being a bad one. Pro evolutionist scientists seem to think that they have the corner on Science and that only if your theories gel with the established evolutionary idea then only then can they be accepted as good science. At least that seems to be the idea that comes across. But hey what do I know???

J C

Those that believe "once saved always saved" is a false docterine.

Soul Winner wrote: »

The saved haven't got any power in and of themselves to be saved. They need God to empower them by the indwelling of the Holy Spirit and that can only come when they trust in Him.

I agree with ALL of the above......AND from the moment they place their trust in Jesus Christ they are saved forever!!!

Soul Winner wrote: »

ohn 15:5
I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing

Literally nothing at all. We can't even have faith without Him. He even gives us the capacity to have faith.

.....once again I fully agree with you that without God we are nothing......but with God we are saved for eternity!!!!

Soul Winner wrote: »

Romans 12:3
For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith.

It's what we do with that faith that’s important. We can either put it in Him or put it in ourselves or this world. That’s the only freedom we have.

....if we are saved we have unshakable faith in Jesus Christ!!

Soul Winner wrote: »

Matthew 16:26
For what is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul? or what shall a man give in exchange for his soul?

Quite.........we are unable to save ourselves through good works lest any man should boast!!!

......Oh what Grace that saved a wretch like me!!!

Soul Winner wrote: »

If we are once saved always saved then why would we need to overcome? Doesn't make sense. If you are drowning and someone throws you a life saving rope and starts to pull you to safety and you let go of the rope how can they save you? We are being saved by faith, we are not ACTUALLY saved until we ACTUALLY overcome. That hasn't happened yet and it is possible to fall away before it does all we have to do is to let go of the faith rope that He has thrown us.

.......the 'saving rope' that Jesus has used to save us is wound around our bodies with an unbreakable knot!!!

Soul Winner wrote: »

Hebrews 2
Therefore we ought to give the more earnest heed to the things which we have heard, lest at any time we should let them slip. For if the word spoken by angels was stedfast, and every transgression and disobedience received a just recompence of reward; How shall we escape, if we neglect so great salvation; which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed unto us by them that heard him;

.....yes indeed there is NO escape if we neglect to be saved....and indeed IF "every transgression and disobedience" of the saved WERE to receive "a just recompence of reward".....we would all be utterly lost.......

........'tis a good thing that we are saved then......isn't it????:)

J C

Those that believe "once saved always saved" is a false docterine.

Originally Posted by J C
....for the simple reason that Paul could ONLY get his reward in Heaven.....when he arrived in Heaven.....i.e. AFTER he died!!

Soul Winner wrote: »

Yes and he had to keep the faith until then.

Please note that it is logically implicit in OSAS that the saved 'keep the faith' until they die!!!

Soul Winner wrote: »

God's Word is forever settled in heaven and His spirit can still be grieved. Not putting your faith in Him grieves Him the most not sin. He hates sin but loves the sinner. Sin is not the issue anymore because He dealt with that on the cross. It’s all about faith now not perfection. I know you are not implying that it is but saying that you accept Jesus once in your life is not going to pass muster with God. It should be done daily and when a circumstance in your life hits you that contradict God's promises then you must all the more grab hold of His promises by speaking them forth.

...once again, please note that it is logically implicit in OSAS that the saved 'keep the faith' until they die!!!

Soul Winner wrote: »

2 Corinthians 1:20
For all the promises of God in him are yea, and in him Amen, unto the glory of God by us.

The above verse gives us license to claim all God's promises if we need to.

.....ONLY if we are saved!!

Soul Winner wrote: »

Hebrews 11:1
Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

The above verse teaches that we substantiate God's promises by faith. They become reality through faith action in the promise being seized. No point in claiming His promise to heal you if you're not sick and no point in claiming the promise that He will provided if you have a healthy bank account and so on. The promise must be for something that you do not actually have in reality and when it is obtained by continued faith (i.e. healing for sickness and provision when needy etc) action in the promises for God that defies your circumstance. The verse below teaches this very thing.

Romans 8:24
...but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for?

Faith is a given for the Saved ......Jesus eloquently confirmed the veracity of what you are saying when He told Thomas "you believe because you see.......but blessed is he who believes but has not seen".

Soul Winner wrote: »

It is, but my point is that you can slip away from it by ceasing the aforementioned trusting action in God's Word. This must be maintained daily until death.


He actually forsook the Apostle Paul and loved the world more than His calling to minister with Paul. It was Paul who wrote 2 Timothy not Timothy himself.

NOBODY knows who is saved only the saved theselves.......so I don't know if Demas was saved......but if he was saved then he would have remained saved......even if he tired during his walk with the Lord.

Soul Winner wrote: »

A truly humble man does not look back to see if he was. I get that myself and couldn't care less what anyone thinks of me when it comes to Christianity. The world hated Jesus as well and we are no greater than the master.

Excessive and overplayed humility can ALSO be a form of pride (in the extent of one's own humility)!!!!

I have never claimed to be particularly endowed with the virtue of humility.....and I have 'fallen' on many occasions .......and took pleasure in driving home a debating point against the Evolutionists.......

......indeed I wouldn't be Human if I didn't 'score' when the Evolutionists presented me with a 'wide open goal' to aim at......as was often the case during the debate!!!!

J C

Those that believe "once saved always saved" is a false docterine.

BTW.....Soul Winner, if you are a Christian, why do you use the ancient pagan Egyptian Ank symbol as your avatar???

J C

Those that believe "once saved always saved" is a false docterine.

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

The Catholic type theology on this issue is that one is "saved" at baptism and that they must endure to the end by following the traditions and teachings of the Roman Catholic Church.

I believe one is only "saved" through repentance and accepting Christ in faith and enduring to the end by obeying the Gospel. (2 Thessalonians 1vs8).

.....so you believe in an adult "salvation" .....that is effectively meaningless.....because you believe that you will ACTUALLY be judged on how well you 'endure' afterwards.........and on all 'outstanding' sins that you have accumulated when you die!!!!:)

wolfsbane

Those that believe "once saved always saved" is a false docterine.

Run_to_da_hills said:

Quote:
Originally Posted by wolfsbane
Since it was written in Scripture. In Ireland, all the Irish Baptist churches hold to it; as do the Evangelical Presbyterians, Reformed Presbyterians, Free Presbyterians, the Brethren, many of the evangelical wings of the Presbyterian and C of I, and several smaller groups.

Basically most churches have inherrited this poison off OSAS from John Calvan and not from the Bible. Again.......Eternal security implies a 'license' to sin without consequences

If have diabetes or low blood sugar. If I eat something sweet I have a few minutes of pleasure followed by hours of headache, fatigue, and pain. I don't eat sweets because the price I pay afterwards is just too great. So it is with drunkenness, drug abuse, sexual sin, lying, cheating, stealing, outburst of anger, jealousy, envy, strife, etc. sin just isn't worth it. sin never pays and when left unrepentant will eventually lead to Death and spiritual danmnation and separation from God to both those that were Once Enlightened who Backslid and the unsaved.

I suppose Calvin could also be accused of getting it from Augustine. Where did Agustine get it? Answer - the Scriptures.

But your last point, Eternal security implies a 'license' to sin without consequences, is completely illogical. The doctrine Calvin preached teaches that God keeps His people from apostasy, raising them up if they fall into sin, renewing their faith and repentance. In doing so, He uses discipline as well as directly warming their hearts. Only those who are not sons escape discipline. Every son is disciplined so that they will not be lost like the ungodly:
1 Corinthians 11:29 For he who eats and drinks in an unworthy manner eats and drinks judgment to himself, not discerning the Lord’s body. 30 For this reason many are weak and sick among you, and many sleep. 31 For if we would judge ourselves, we would not be judged. 32 But when we are judged, we are chastened by the Lord, that we may not be condemned with the world.

To say Eternal security implies a 'license' to sin without consequences is as silly as saying Justification by faith apart from the works of the law implies a fruitless life.

Soul Winner

J C wrote: »

BTW.....Soul Winner, if you are a Christian, why do you use the ancient pagan Egyptian Ank symbol as your avatar???

3 reasons: 1. To remind myself that Christ died for the un-Godly not the Godly. 2. Because it becomes a stumbling block for the self righteous. 3. Because I like it.

Do you put up a Christmas tree at Christmas time?

J C

Those that believe "once saved always saved" is a false docterine.

Soul Winner wrote: »

3 reasons: 1. To remind myself that Christ died for the un-Godly not the Godly. 2. Because it becomes a stumbling block for the self righteous. 3. Because I like it.

Do you put up a Christmas tree at Christmas time?

I do put up a Christmas tree.......but a Christmas tree is merely a tree with lights .............and it is therefore a form of decoration.
........while an Ank is a pagan symbol used in the worship ceremonies of pagan deities by the ancient Egyptians and some modern 'mystery cults'.

.....and BTW....although Christ died to save sinners......His sacrifice will ultimately only benefit the Godly .........i.e. the Saved Elect.

.......and do you think that a Christian should wear a Pentagram or set up a statue to Baphomet in their home ......as "a stumbling block for the self righteous"...... or because they "like it"????

Soul Winner

J C wrote: »

I do.......but a Christmas tree is merely a tree with lights .............and it is therefore a form of decoration.
........while an Ank is a pagan symbol used in the worship of pagan deities by the ancient Egyptians and modern mystery cults.

Jeremiah 10:1-5
"Hear ye the word which the LORD speaketh unto you, O house of Israel: Thus saith the LORD, Learn not the way of the heathen, and be not dismayed at the signs of heaven; for the heathen are dismayed at them. For the customs of the people are vain: for one cutteth a tree out of the forest, the work of the hands of the workman, with the axe. They deck it with silver and with gold; they fasten it with nails and with hammers, that it move not. They are upright as the palm tree, but speak not: they must needs be borne, because they cannot go. Be not afraid of them; for they cannot do evil, neither also is it in them to do good."

Good article about Christmas

J C wrote: »

.....and BTW....although Christ died to save sinners......His sacrifice will ultimately only benefit the Godly Saved Elect.

Yes the Godly that are made Godly by Him not themselves. Do you not consider yourself still a sinner? I do. Until this garment of the flesh is laid down ony then can I be truly sanctified and separated wholly over there. Until then I (sinner) must keep acting in faith on God's promises.

J C wrote: »

.......and do you think that a Christian should wear a Pentagram or set up a statue to Baphomet in their home ......as "a stumbling block for the self righteous"...... or because they "like it"????

Yes. I hate self righteous people especially self righteous Christians and if a statue of Baphomet is the only thing that will keep them out of my house then that's who I will erect. Self righteous Christians are products of fleshly works that they think will get them to heaven and are by nature children of the bond woman which shall not be heir with the children of the free. So what saith the scripture? Cast out the bondwoman and her child.

Genesis 21:10
Wherefore she said unto Abraham, Cast out this bondwoman and her son: for the son of this bondwoman shall not be heir with my son, even with Isaac.

Galatians 4:30
Nevertheless what saith the scripture? Cast out the bondwoman and her son: for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman.

J C

Those that believe "once saved always saved" is a false docterine.

J C wrote: »

I do.......but a Christmas tree is merely a tree with lights .............and it is therefore a form of decoration.
........while an Ank is a pagan symbol used in the worship of pagan deities by the ancient Egyptians and modern mystery cults.

Soul Winner wrote: »

Jeremiah 10:1-5
"Hear ye the word which the LORD speaketh unto you, O house of Israel: Thus saith the LORD, Learn not the way of the heathen, and be not dismayed at the signs of heaven; for the heathen are dismayed at them. For the customs of the people are vain: for one cutteth a tree out of the forest, the work of the hands of the workman, with the axe. They deck it with silver and with gold; they fasten it with nails and with hammers, that it move not. They are upright as the palm tree, but speak not: they must needs be borne, because they cannot go. Be not afraid of them; for they cannot do evil, neither also is it in them to do good."

This verse refers to the use of a tree as a Totem Idol......and as I do not adore my Christmas tree nor permit others to do so.......
.......it is therefore NEITHER a Totem nor an Idol......but merely a decoration!!!!

However, an Ank is a pagan symbol used in the worship of pagan deities by the ancient Egyptians and by some modern 'mystery cults'......which puts it into a totally different category to a Christmas tree!!!

Soul Winner wrote: »

Yes the Godly that are made Godly by Him not themselves. Do you not consider yourself still a sinner? I do. Until this garment of the flesh is laid down ony then can I be truly sanctified and separated wholly over there. Until then I (sinner) must keep acting in faith on God's promises.

......perhaps you didn't realise what an Ank was when you chose it as your avator???

Soul Winner wrote: »

Yes. I hate self righteous people especially self righteous Christians and if a statue of Baphomet is the only thing that will keep them out of my house then that's who I will erect.

.....you ARE joking.....I assume!!!

Could I gently point out that hatred should have no place in a Christian's heart........and especially NOT hatred towards fellow Christians.

Soul Winner wrote: »

Yes. I hate self righteous people especially self righteous Christians and if a statue of Baphomet is the only thing that will keep them out of my house then that's who I will erect.

......sounds like the 'cure' could be significantly worse than the 'disease'!!!:eek:

......and the following verses of Scripture also come to mind:
Eph 5:11-13 And have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather reprove them.
For it is a shame even to speak of those things which are done of them in secret.
But all things that are reproved are made manifest by the light: for whatsoever doth make manifest is light.

Soul Winner wrote: »

Self righteous Christians are products of fleshly works that they think will get them to heaven and are by nature children of the bond woman which shall not be heir with the children of the free. So what saith the scripture? Cast out the bondwoman and her child.

......could I gently remind you that MY position is that that fleshy works (of either sin or virtue) will NOT save or condemn anybody.......because the saved are OSAS and the unsaved are.......er.. UNSAVED!!!!:D

Soul Winner wrote: »

......saying that you (J C) accept Jesus once in your life is not going to pass muster with God. It should be done daily and when a circumstance in your life hits you that contradict God's promises then you must all the more grab hold of His promises by speaking them forth.

......could I gently point out that saying 'I do' once to my wife DID pass muster with God as a binding life-long commitment between myself and her......
......so why shouldn't saying 'I believe on You' once ALSO pass muster with God as a binding eternal commitment between myself and Jesus Christ????