...and your NEW WWE Champion....(obviously will contain spoilers)

Vince135792003

Minto wrote:

Vince, I believe this generation is roughly 2001/2 - present! Why? because it was around that time that wrestlers like Stone Cold and The Rock finished their full-time careers, wrestling entered a new era, with WCW closing and Orton and Cena and Batista debuting.

John Cena is the biggest draw of that era. Not Triple H (even though he's been on top for a large part of it) who undeniably reached his peak 2 years before that. He'll never be a draw like Hogan, Austin, Flair or Rock was not matter how many years he's on top.

Look at last weeks Raw rating for example. It was pushed for a week that Triple H would be facing Vince. The show did a 3.2. In other words nobody gave a dam. It's not 1999 anymore.

Mr.Nice Guy

validreasoning! wrote:

I'm gonna fly through this as theres some serious stuff i wanna clear up before heading out of work.

Shame you're not married to your boss' daughter as you could do what you want then.

validreasoning! wrote:

No, but you're the one who is the first to completely lose it here regarding HHH on every RAW and PPV. Check your posts.

Me thinks you're paranoid. HHH has been selfish since his return from injury so is it any wonder that I have been criticisng him? What do you want me to do? Praise him for his unselfish work? There hasn't been any!

validreasoning! wrote:

And you still can't let it go. And if i didn't know better, i'd swear you were in it for the windup!

No I won't let it go because as I've stated before it's relevant. And no I'm not in this as wind-up.

validreasoning! wrote:

Nothing Hogan didn't do countless times over the years, and he's considered a legend. What's so different here?

Bloody hell now Hogan's been brought up by you! You've brought up Kennedy, Cena, Taker already. Who's next, Goldberg?

validreasoning! wrote:

That was directed at a number of people here who have constantly bashed the crap out of HHH since his return. Not directly at you, if you took it that way, my apologies, but that most definitely not the case. As for hypocracy, take a look in the mirror regarding your feelings on Taker there. This could go around in circles.

There's no hypocrisy on my part because you're the one who got annoyed about my comments about HHH when you have done it countless times in the past towards Taker and Cena. And almost every thread on Cena features you slagging him off.

validreasoning! wrote:

I do look at them, and i do take them on board. But replying to you on certain things just goes around in circles. Kennedy and KOTR were valid points, regardless on if you can accept them or not. Personally i'm tired of one set of rules for everyone, and another set for HHH.

We're all tired of HHH having a different set of rules man but that's the reality! He has an incredible amount of power and when crap like last night occurs and the recent Raw shows then we are justified in criticising it.

validreasoning! wrote:

I do not know why Taker wasn't thrown in there, unless they plan on giving him the other belt from Batista on SD. Personally i think that Cena being shelved at the 11th hour destroyed all plans for that show and there was a lack of damage control.

It wasn't quite the 11th hour really was it? They had six days to come up with a plan and there were plenty of options besides making HHH an 11 times champion and having him wrestle two more times.

validreasoning! wrote:

Guess you misread there. I was comparing Hogan to HHH in regards monster killing.

I don't see how I misread unless you regard The Rock as a monster. You wrote:

Did Hogan look weak after losing to Rock at Mania X8? No he didn't. A Pinfall doesn't destroy careers like you're making them out.

validreasoning! wrote:

Eventhough we don't know that political influence was the basis behind it? For all we know, that was McMahon's bright idea!

It could have been Vince, then again it could have been Mrs Levesque. I think what we can safely say is that he was at least consulted about the direction and was well on board.

validreasoning! wrote:

I had to skip through a load of this because 1) you probably know what i'm gonna say anyway and 2), i'm meant to be out of here 10 minutes ago!! I've no problem agreeing to differ. I don't regard HHH as the best ever, that accolade goes to Michaels in my eyes (ask Dre as in Dray!). I just appreciate what he's contributed to the business as well as given me the first enjoyable WWE PPV in months!

So you don't think he's the best ever? Hey are you on a wind up?

TheNumpty

Mr.Nice Guy wrote:

Thanks for answering my points. What I'm getting from your post is the following...

- You feel Vince wanted someone proven as a champ which is why he gave HHH the strap? But if that's the case why give it to him only to see him lose it at the end of the night? You also say that, "I'm sure he doesn't want to be in his late 40's and still challenging for the title." Isn't that the situation we have now?

You also point out that HHH knows what's good for business on account of him putting over Benoit, Cena and Batista at Wrestlemanias. You seem to overlook the fact that he has been involved himself in heavyweight title matches at WM18, 19, 20, 21, 22 and also would have been at 23 had he not suffered his quad injury. If he knew what was best for business why did he lobby for Edge to have his WWE title run cut short after a month in 2006 so that he could face Cena at WM22?

- You acknowledge Umaga has been made to look weak but justify it on the grounds he can once again be made to look like a monster. Then I would ask, what's the point of that? Why derail Umaga at all?

- You claim the burial job HHH has done in recent weeks has been to make him look like a credible challenger. Yet earlier you claimed Vince wanted someone proven as a challenger which is why he went with HHH.

I can't agree at all that guys like London and Kendrick needed to be buried to make HHH look credible. He has credibility from his years in the industry.

I think HHH was made champ to keep people on their toes, could anyone before this PPV foresaw what happened last night? The air of unpredictablity was refreshing than the last few months of SuperCena retaining against every challenger, it was a nice break from the norm. I don't hate the booking of last night and i don't hate the fact that HHH was champ again for 2 hours.

HHH is only 38 and still has a few years left in him but he cannot continue a heavy schedule for much longer. Thats why we have the likes of Kennedy, Cena, Orton, Lashley and others to carry the company for the next few years.

So what if HHH has been in title matches for the last few Wrestlemanias?
Do you see why he has been in the title matches? 18 and 19 are bad examples but since the beginning of 2004, HHH has done his best to put over and performed in excellent matches worthy of a main event on the biggest stage of them all.

Thats speculation that he lobbied for Edge's short title reign and even if he did, what would be a bigger draw at WM? Edge vs HHH or Cena vs HHH? I know what i would rather see.

The booking between HHH and Umaga was screwed up anyway due to Umaga's suspension and Cena's injury, a stop gap solution was needed. In the overall run of things Umaga will always be a monster and a defeat to HHH will not hurt him. He no sold a lot of offence and still looked like he could beat HHH. The feud is dead now and Umaga can return to the mid card and build himself once again as a title challenger.

And the last point, HHH cannot just waltz into the title picture after returning from injury with no build up. He had to go through Booker, Carlito, Umaga etc to gain momentum and look worthy of a title shot. If Cena hadn't been injured and Orton won the title, HHH wouldn't be in the picture but as things stand and given what HHH has done since his return, Vince has trusted him give some stability to the main event scene.

Vince135792003

TheNumpty wrote:

Thats speculation that he lobbied for Edge's short title reign and even if he did, what would be a bigger draw at WM? Edge vs HHH or Cena vs HHH? I know what i would rather see.

Cena and Edge as a feud was way more fun that Cena and Triple H.

I don't think you can definitively say Triple H and Cena would have been a bigger draw. Edge had some serious momentum going at the time.

Mr.Nice Guy

TheNumpty wrote:

I think HHH was made champ to keep people on their toes, could anyone before this PPV foresaw what happened last night?

Sadly yes.

TheNumpty wrote:

The air of unpredictablity was refreshing than the last few months of SuperCena retaining against every challenger, it was a nice break from the norm. I don't hate the booking of last night and i don't hate the fact that HHH was champ again for 2 hours.

Yeah so instead of SuperCena you got MegaHunter with the difference being Cena was simply told what to do whereas Hunter was actively involved in decision-making.

TheNumpty wrote:

HHH is only 38 and still has a few years left in him but he cannot continue a heavy schedule for much longer. Thats why we have the likes of Kennedy, Cena, Orton, Lashley and others to carry the company for the next few years.

I note how you left out Umaga there. Triple H will continue to be at the top as long as he keeps himself in the title equation.

TheNumpty wrote:

So what if HHH has been in title matches for the last few Wrestlemanias?
Do you see why he has been in the title matches? 18 and 19 are bad examples but since the beginning of 2004, HHH has done his best to put over and performed in excellent matches worthy of a main event on the biggest stage of them all.

HHH has been in title matches at Wrestlemanias because he wants to go down as the greatest ever. So what? It's pretty disgusting.

TheNumpty wrote:

Thats speculation that he lobbied for Edge's short title reign and even if he did, what would be a bigger draw at WM? Edge vs HHH or Cena vs HHH? I know what i would rather see.

Why would they be the two options? I would have rather seen Edge vs Cena. You know, the feud which ended up being the feud of the year? And it's hardly "speculation" as the Mania main event speaks for itself.

TheNumpty wrote:

The booking between HHH and Umaga was screwed up anyway due to Umaga's suspension and Cena's injury, a stop gap solution was needed.

What are you on about?

TheNumpty wrote:

In the overall run of things Umaga will always be a monster and a defeat to HHH will not hurt him.

Course it hurt him. It didn't f*cking help him.

TheNumpty wrote:

He no sold a lot of offence and still looked like he could beat HHH.

Yet he lost clean to the pedigree.

TheNumpty wrote:

The feud is dead now and Umaga can return to the mid card and build himself once again as a title challenger.

LOL you say that like it's a good thing. Umaga prior to this feud was one of Raw's biggest heels and on the cusp of the main event.

TheNumpty wrote:

And the last point, HHH cannot just waltz into the title picture after returning from injury with no build up. He had to go through Booker, Carlito, Umaga etc to gain momentum and look worthy of a title shot.

He didn't have to f*cking annihilate them.

TheNumpty wrote:

If Cena hadn't been injured and Orton won the title, HHH wouldn't be in the picture but as things stand and given what HHH has done since his return, Vince has trusted him give some stability to the main event scene.

Yeah sure and Bertie really doesn't know what he did with that £50,000!

TherapyBoy

Mr.Nice Guy wrote:

TheNumpty wrote:

I think HHH was made champ to keep people on their toes, could anyone before this PPV foresaw what happened last night?

Sadly yes.

How could you have forseen it? Can you forsee me up some Lotto numbers for next Wednesday please =]

TheNumpty

I really don't see the problem here. HHH is entitled to be where he is, he has the history and has given the perfomances backing him up to be a perennial title contender. He has proven time and time again that he can put on a great match when it comes down to it. Last night's main event was really good, definitly MOTY contender. I am only going by HHH the perfomer, not as a backstage politicking demon.

ShawnRaven

Mr.Nice Guy wrote:

Me thinks you're paranoid. HHH has been selfish since his return from injury so is it any wonder that I have been criticisng him? What do you want me to do? Praise him for his unselfish work? There hasn't been any!

Start now, he put Orton over!

Bloody hell now Hogan's been brought up by you! You've brought up Kennedy, Cena, Taker already. Who's next, Goldberg?

Not biting on that one, my point was all of those are to blame for hogging the spotlight, but nobody has bashed on them as hard as they do on HHH.

[quoting]There's no hypocrisy on my part because you're the one who got annoyed about my comments about HHH when you have done it countless times in the past towards Taker and Cena. And almost every thread on Cena features you slagging him off.[/quote]

There's a difference between slagging a performer off and being completely biased. I've no problem crediting Taker and Cena on some of the matches they've pulled off, all you seem to be doing is blasting every HHH match since his return.

We're all tired of HHH having a different set of rules man but that's the reality! He has an incredible amount of power and when crap like last night occurs and the recent Raw shows then we are justified in criticising it.

I dunno, the scales are only barely tipped given by the general reaction of this forum.

It wasn't quite the 11th hour really was it? They had six days to come up with a plan and there were plenty of options besides making HHH an 11 times champion and having him wrestle two more times.

This is WWE booking we're talking about, six days is precious little time. And what were the options exactly?

It could have been Vince, then again it could have been Mrs Levesque. I think what we can safely say is that he was at least consulted about the direction and was well on board.

No we can't, I wasn't there, you weren't there. Therefore no, we can't safely say anything.

So you don't think he's the best ever? Hey are you on a wind up?

Nope, Michaels and Michaels alone gets that accolade
VR!

Fozzy

So here's my take...Orton winning the title is good news and well-deserved. The fact is that HHH is the top face on Raw, especially since Jericho hasn't come back yet. It could have easily been HHH vs Orton for the title, or Umaga in there for a 3-way, and that would have been fine. It just seemed so pointless in having HHH win the title for the two hours. Cena was barely able to beat Orton the one time he did it, yet HHH did it in no time with a roll-up

Umaga didn't come out of it looking good, but if HHH is now the top face, he's going to be busy with Orton. HHH had to look stronger than Umaga, but it wasn't done in a very good way in my opinion, even more so when you take into account that Umaga has never had the upper-hand in their feud

HHH hasn't been able to put on a great match in so long now, but he did a decent job with Orton last night. Orton himself was great, I'd have expected nothing less after the year he's had so far

And since Kennedy's been brought up here, I'd like to add once again my feelings that he's the most incompetent wrestler in the company. At least Khali tries his best to work with his opponent even if he's not all that capable. Kennedy is capable, yet he just makes life so awkward for whoever's in the ring with him. Paul London was trying to get him to stand up at one stage so he could do something with him, but Kennedy just stumbled around and stayed on the ground until London could do nothing but kick him

Vince135792003

Fozzy wrote:

So here's my take...Orton winning the title is good news and well-deserved. The fact is that HHH is the top face on Raw, especially since Jericho hasn't come back yet. It could have easily been HHH vs Orton for the title, or Umaga in there for a 3-way, and that would have been fine. It just seemed so pointless in having HHH win the title for the two hours. Cena was barely able to beat Orton the one time he did it, yet HHH did it in no time with a roll-up

I've been one of the people who has been most critical of Triple H on here. And again I haven't seen the show so that makes my opinion not hugely valid.

But from the reports I've read and listened to about the show, I wouldn't be overly critical of him last night. I don't agree that he should be the top good guy on Raw. I think his time has passed but if your going to go that way, I think it seemed quite an effective way to do it.

In the eyes of the fans they portrayed him as a guy who was robbed of the title last night because Vince kept stacking the odds against him. And even then he nearly prevailed. By going with that approach I think it makes a rematch with Orton down the track seem more important (in other words to see Triple H get his revenge, get what's right his etc...) than if they had just done a straight match.

I can see the flaws in what I'm saying. The big one being Umaga.

Just on the whole storyline, Triple H getting his revenge could be a very long storyline culminating at 'Mania which would mean he sticks with Umaga for the time being and we get an Orton/Jericho feud for the next couple of months.

Fozzy

Vince135792003 wrote:

Just on the whole storyline, Triple H getting his revenge could be a very long storyline culminating at 'Mania which would mean he sticks with Umaga for the time being and we get an Orton/Jericho feud for the next couple of months.

Apparently he'll be getting his rematch in two weeks time though, at Cyber Sunday. Unless Jericho returns tonight then that's exactly what will happen

One more thing I'd like to throw out there - HHH doing comedy makes for awful tv. He was being more childish than Cena at No Mercy! When he came out at the start I said to my mate, "he'll say that Vince has no balls and Vince will get mad and give him exactly what he wants". Exactly what happened unfortunately

Mr.Nice Guy

Bizarre-Ink wrote:

How could you have forseen it? Can you forsee me up some Lotto numbers for next Wednesday please =]

How could I have forseen that Triple H would want to become involved in a situation involving a vacant WWE title? Come on, you don't have to be Mystic Meg to sense it was a huge possibility! I warned it was likely the minute Cena got crocked and so did others on this forum. Fozzy being one if I'm not mistaken. You just have to remember the guy's track record and his ambition to overtake his idol Ric Flair's record of title wins.

Can't help you on the Lotto numbers I'm afraid but I can give you a prediction on one of the guys I think will be involved in the main event of Wrestlemania 24. I reckon it's a good bet!

validreasoning! wrote:

Start now, he put Orton over!

I tell you what, if he'd done that for Orton without the need to pin him in the first place I'd praise him substantially but it's hard to do so when he earlier beat Orton and when Orton only managed to beat a guy on his 3rd match by the skin of his teeth. Shows you how insecure HHH is that he'll only sell in extreme circumstances.

validreasoning! wrote:

Not biting on that one, my point was all of those are to blame for hogging the spotlight, but nobody has bashed on them as hard as they do on HHH.

Do they wield the influence HHH does? Only Hogan comes close to HHH in terms of using and abusing political power and he gets plenty of criticism.

validreasoning! wrote:

There's a difference between slagging a performer off and being completely biased. I've no problem crediting Taker and Cena on some of the matches they've pulled off, all you seem to be doing is blasting every HHH match since his return.

Eh? You earlier referred to Cena as a "talentless hack" and in the past have referred to Undertaker as a "no money drawing sack of sh*t". So much for giving them credit!

But you're right I have been blasting HHH since his return. You see I'm one of those wrestling fans who believes that veterans ought to try and put over young talent rather than hog the limelight for themselves. Call me old-fashioned! Although in saying that I have acknowledged he put on a quality performance in the main event so I'm fair guy at heart.

validreasoning! wrote:

I dunno, the scales are only barely tipped given by the general reaction of this forum.

I don't get your point. You're saying people have no problem in him pulling off his crap? Even YOU have criticised him on occasion!

validreasoning! wrote:

This is WWE booking we're talking about, six days is precious little time. And what were the options exactly?

I think they gave themselves plenty of time to come up with an adequate solution. The options were limitless. It's not like they had no alternative but to place HHH in 3 matches and have him win the WWE title in one of them!

validreasoning! wrote:

No we can't, I wasn't there, you weren't there. Therefore no, we can't safely say anything.

Sure we can. I wasn't there when Bertie Ahern was given £50,000 but we can safely say it happened and that he's a corrupt son of a bitch. :cool:

I've no desire to keep hammering on about the Triple H power issue as my feelings are surely well known by this point, but to anyone who thinks last night's events were part of some story to further a feud with Orton I would say read between the lines and see last night for what it really was - an egomaniac at his worst.

Minto

Where is Triple H during all this, eh?

I am of course referring to our resident WWE Fantasy Champion (it kills me to say that) Triple H, not the 11 time WWE/World Champion Triple H.

Vince135792003

Minto wrote:

Where is Triple H during all this, eh?

I am of course referring to our resident WWE Fantasy Champion (it kills me to say that) Triple H, not the 11 time WWE/World Champion Triple H.

He buried everyone and left.

Minto

Vince135792003 wrote:

He buried everyone and left.

I have to admit, I LOLed! Funniest thing I read all day!

TherapyBoy

Mr.Nice Guy wrote:

How could I have forseen that Triple H would want to become involved in a situation involving a vacant WWE title? Come on, you don't have to be Mystic Meg to sense...

That wasn't the question asked. Read carefully:

Mr.Nice Guy wrote:

TheNumpty wrote:

I think HHH was made champ to keep people on their toes, could anyone before this PPV foresaw what happened last night?

Sadly yes.

You may have guessed the end result of the evening, but I doubt you could have expected it to happen the way it did. Not getting into the HHH argument but just want to say I really enjoyed all the WWE title goings-on. I thought it was much better this way than it could have been with Cena involved. Just my opinion.
Still a mark =]