Judges stern warning to L drivers

Cionád

woop wrote:

just my feckin luck!

Location: Bray, priceless.

I wouldn't worry about it to be honest, every few months a story like this comes along and scares all the learners ... like it did for me many times!! ... nothing will come of it. I doubt many a guard will take you to court for driving alone while on 1st/3rd provisional. The judge mentions "strings of offences" so the fact they were driving alone was probably thrown in with other (more serious) offences such as dangerous driving, driving without insurance or whatever got them in trouble in the first place.

Guy:Incognito

HavoK wrote:

most other countries have a proper testing system meaning you don't have to wait a significant chunk of your life for one.

I'll quote myself on this one.

Stekelly wrote:

Again I'll use Germany as an example. It takes months to get alicence there because of the need for lessons etc, so just because its the wait for the actual test to come up here instead of mandaotry training, its more or less the same situation.

Bottom line is nobody "needs" to break laws to drive. There are ways and means of obeying the law. Laziness is not an excuse.

Stekelly

Stekelly wrote:

Which is exactly whats wrong with the country. A minimum number of lessons with a qualified instructor is exactly what is needed for everybody before they should be let near a car alone, regardless of how good they think they are.


Driving lessons should not be a choice.

Well the driving instructer just brought me around the test course a few times and told me Id pass no problem. So what was the instructer going to teach me? I would consider myself to be a good driver but I dont go around thinking im invincible either. also I passed my test 5 years ago not recently. I was driving machinery when I was 10 big difference from a person from the city driving a small car for the first time at 17.

cazzy

HavoK wrote:

most other countries have a proper testing system meaning you don't have to wait a significant chunk of your life for one.

Stop moaning, stick your L plates up, apply for your test 6 months before you start driving lessons if you cant wait that long. (thats what I did)

I totally agree with the rule - most accidents in this contry are caused by drivers who have passed their test in last year (according to the experts you are a novice driver for 5 years after starting driving)

In Northern Ireland you are resricted for a full year after passing your test, must wear R Plates (Similar to L plates) and cant drive over something like 45 mph.

Im all on for that here - I passed my driving test but I know Im still not a fully competent driver in every respect as the driving test here is a joke and doesnt test a person fully at all for all hazards and control of car during hazards. In some countries the test involves 3 or 4 stages and only on last stage can the student go out onto the main roads. the first few tests are in controlled environment and test for control of car in hazard situations.

BeautifulLoser

As a now fully licenced driver who drives to work every day I'd welcome such an initiative. Seeing the amount of learner drivers on the road that can't do many of the basic things right is shocking.

In an ideal scenario, consideration would be taken for learners who have applied for a test, but in the current system, due to the mind-boggling waiting times, people get their provisional licence and apply for the test on the same day knowing that in 10 months time they'll be ready to take it.

The situation must be stopped where by people can get a provisional licence, get into a car and start driving without any tuition whatsoever. It's just too dangerous. For them and everyone else.

In Italy at least, you learn how to drive (accompanied) and when you're ready, apply for the test which you sit within the week.

The situation could be helped greatly by:
1. Reduced waiting times
2. A decent public transport system (so that those waiting for a test are not greatly inconvenienced by not being able to drive unacompanied)

And don't get me started on the fact that if you fail your test you can drive away from the test centre...

Learners can drive unacompanied on their 2nd provisional by the way..

Anyone know if there's anything stopping you getting your 2nd licence immediately after getting the first? Does it have to expire??

Guy:Incognito

Davis Shrilling Ointment wrote:

Well the driving instructer just brought me around the test course a few times and told me Id pass no problem. So what was the instructer going to teach me? I would consider myself to be a good driver but I dont go around thinking im invincible either. also I passed my test 5 years ago not recently. I was driving machinery when I was 10 big difference from a person from the city driving a small car for the first time at 17.

The standard of the test and driving instructors is a debate for another thread.

Caching someone well enough to pass the test is probably not beyond the skills of any hafl decent test. Unfortunately that seems to be enough as far as drivers and instructors are concerned. Passing the test as it is is no indication of being a good, never mind very good, driver.

Inexperienced drivers who decribe themselves as good drivers are probably anything but.

Stekelly

Stekelly wrote:

The standard of the test and driving instructors is a debate for another thread.

Caching someone well enough to pass the test is probably not beyond the skills of any hafl decent test. Unfortunately that seems to be enough as far as drivers and instructors are concerned. Passing the test as it is is no indication of being a good, never mind very good, driver.

Inexperienced drivers who decribe themselves as good drivers are probably anything but.

I fully agree that the standard of the test is very poor and that there are a lot of very poor drivers on the roads both on provisonal licences and with full licences the point im trying to make is that it may not be necessary to put every driver through the expense and time of doing loads of lessons if they can show they are able to drive to the required standard after a few lessons. It will just turn into a big money spinner for instructers.

jimmycrackcorm

I'll say it again; Passing a driving test doesn't make a driver experienced. We'd also get much better road manners if we implemented driver testing the same way as the NCT - every few years.

wil

Passing a test doesnt make you experienced, it gives you the right to become experienced, much as an experienced doctor wasnt allowed to practice until they passed their exams.

What most Irish learners dont realise is Driving unaccompanied is a farcical anomaly that only exists in Ireland. There are developing countries that dont have as lax an attitude to learning as here.
Only when you go elsewhere (a dose of emigration might do some people some good) they cannot believe this goes on here. They cant believe we are so backward.

All it is is convenient and we dont like losing conveniences. The excuse of long test times is disappearing, There are threads starting of "my test came in 4 weeks, what do I do."

In England or Germany it not the police that stop you, its your own friends. They didnt and so you wont. But then you are considered old if you havent passed by 19. Well that gives you 2 years, should be enough for even the most uncoordinated. Its a cop out, just get down on your A and learn properly.

If you recall in the C4 series Shameless the character Fiona Gallagher got a job as a delivery driver but as she didnt have a full licence her family wouldnt let her drive, not till Marty (with full licence and Tourettes) helped out by going with her as accompanying driver on her rounds. This as a plot for a dysfunctional family in Manchester is absolutely realistic. However it would never happen in Ireland

A 40ish colleague in the UK couldnt pass his test so he came several miles to work by bike. He went to client meetings by train. We all had company cars. It was totally accepted

I passed my test without ever owning or access to a car other than the instructers. Thats how the rest of the developed world does it.

So much complacency in the system here. In 2004 a learner friend on first prov driving 40 miles to Dublin every day on her own rang her local garda station to inquire about it and was told driving on motorway wasnt a problem. And from the number of unaccompanied learners still on motorway I see, that so far is exactly the case.

If is happens, its a few decades late. Im sure there will be loads of complaining it contravenes constitutional rights and pleading to have bans lifted cos it interferes with their work. But pandering to the so many unlicenced drivers (a provisional is not a licence) is one reason the system is so complacent and slow to deal with the carnage on our roads.

Schlemm

Anan1 wrote:

But how could they be coming before the judge if the Guards aren't charging them?;)

So many L-drivers are complacent about it because the authorities are complacent about it. That sort of attitute filters down from the top and more people like that Judge need to speak out about it.
I was hit by a driver yesterday who was unaccompanied and on her first provisional (see thread) and the Insurance companies didn't seem too bothered about this fact...how can driving without obeying the terms of your licence be so insignifigant in a crash situation?! Do insurance companies actually stand by their clients, whether they're wrong or right in a situation, if they're driving alone with their first provisional?

craichoe

Jeeeesus ... Fully licensed drivers Vs Provisional

I think if you have a string of offenses you should be put off the road anyway, or have your full license taken off you and be made re-take your test.

Seriously, I don't see any difference between L Drivers, Foreign Drivers and Fully Licensed Irish drivers, they all seem to be equally as bad and some, equally as good.

The current system is a joke and the test is a joke, the theory test is a joke. I mean .. no requirement on hours you have to do before driving on your own ! its insane ! Just one test and thats it ... your fine?

IMO that Judge's statement means nothing. Judge Patwell in Cork is a total nutjob and has put people off the road for 6 months for what would be considered minor offenses.

If you get stopped and ticketed, pay it. If you commit a offense that requires you to go to court then so what .. YOU COMMITTED THE OFFENSE, deal with it, a pink piece of paper doesn't change the fact that you put people in danger,

i.e.
Dangerous Driving
Reckless Driving
Driving without due care and attention
Driving under the influence

Any of the above require court appearances.

Every other country in the EU (even Poland) look at Ireland and can't believe we have this system.

anyways, this thread has been done to death, and a judges statement in court means nothing. In fact it even brings about the total non uniformity of judgments.

Judge got laid last night - 70 euro fine and a warning
Judge got the cold shoulder - 2500 euro fine, 6 month ban and an endorsement.

Evil_Clown

It's true that there are many drivers on L plates looking for a test but on the other hand there are also loads of L plate drivers putting off there tests because this country allows them to freely drive on the road for years without passing any practical driving exam

On one hand i have a little sympathy for those who are on the waiting list
but on the other it will make a hell of alot of others join that list hopefully
Bring on more driving testers now mr government please

craichoe

Evil_Clown wrote:

It's true that there are many drivers on L plates looking for a test but on the other hand there are also loads of L plate drivers putting off there tests because this country allows them to freely drive on the road for years without passing any practical driving exam

On one hand i have a little sympathy for those who are on the waiting list
but on the other it will make a hell of alot of others join that list hopefully
Bring on more driving testers now mr government please

I think the point here is that the Judge stated he will put people off the road if they have a string of offenses and a provisional license.

Nothing to to with the waiting list imo.
He said nothing about going to court for driving unaccompanied.

Evil_Clown

craichoe wrote:

I think the point here is that the Judge stated he will put people off the road if they have a string of offenses and a provisional license.

Nothing to to with the waiting list imo.
He said nothing about going to court for driving unaccompanied.

If you have a string of offences and a full licence you should be put off the road

My point is that there are too many provisionally licenced drivers that have no intention of doing the test and that they should be punished thats all

craichoe

Evil_Clown wrote:

If you have a string of offences and a full licence you should be put off the road

My point is that there are too many provisionally licenced drivers that have no intention of doing the test and that they should be punished thats all

Start a new thread then

faceman

RoundyMooney wrote:

Meh.

The moral of the story is, if you're on a provisional, and drive unaccompanied, don't end up on the receiving end of a summons.

In any event, proactive or otherwise judges laying down localised laws mean little if such a practise isn't applied across the board on a nationwide level...

with you on this RM. as great as it is to hear a judge say it, an appeal to the judges decision will be sucessful on the grounds no other cases in other jurisdication have been ruled the same.

BeautifulLoser wrote:

As a now fully licenced driver who drives to work every day I'd welcome such an initiative. Seeing the amount of learner drivers on the road that can't do many of the basic things right is shocking.

unfortunately we also see just as many full license holders who cant do the basic things right either. even though im full license holder for a car and motorcycle, i dont think removing provisional licenses will solve the problems on our roads.

As other posters have said its down to training. Unfortunately even if improved training and minimum standards were rolled out tomorrow, it would be at least 20 years before we would see massive improvements in driving habits on the road.

Personally in the short term, i would like to see a massive advertising campaign with a big focus on ads in the cinema and on tv showing realistic scenarios on the road and the correct action particularly in the following areas:
* roundabouts
* overtaking
* using dual carriage ways and motorways
* indicating
* junctions

to compliment this, stricter enforcement of the ROTR would slowly help change attitudes.

Caliden

So what do I do if it's an emergency but I have no full licence holder to come with me?

tc20

Caliden wrote:

So what do I do if it's an emergency but I have no full licence holder to come with me?

You're safe in Galway for the time being Caliden, just avoid Bray

faceman

get a taxi!

Pipp

Stekelly wrote:

What do all the people in ther 20's etc in other countries do? dont take a job that requires driving, be in in getting to/from work or as part of the job, if you cant drive. It doesnt take a genius to work that out.




Again I'll use Germany as an example. It takes months to get alicence there because of the need for lessons etc, so just because its the wait for the actual test to come up here instead of mandaotry training, its more or less the same situation.





Lots of laws can be gotten away with , why bother with any of them so? Why bother getting tax/insurance/nct etc if its not properly enforced. Theres plenty of ways to get an insurance disk without paying for a years insurance, so why not?

Jeepers, the holier than though attitude on here from some posters is unbelievable. If you were as law abiding and perfect as you like to think you are youd be wearing a halo and wings!!
Anyway, I want to make a point here:
My husband is on a provisional license, and I have a full license. I spent a fortune on lessons and passed first time.
He did the same and failed first time, he immediately re-applied for the test. Due to a bizarre timing conincedence he injured his hand quite badly the day before the second test. So he reapplied again.
Third time round there was a death in the family - a beloved uncle of my husbands. So he didnt do his test, the GP gave him a letter. He was truly devastated so the bloomin driving test was simply put aside.
Now, my main point is regading a point someone made about "not getting a job that requires you to drive if you have a prov license". That is the biggest load of nonsense I have had the misfortune to read on this normally quite incitive forum.
My husband has to drive 40 miles each way to work. He works shift work. If he were to lose his job he would find it very hard to get equivalent work that would not require a car. He tried to get a job locally but no go. So, he has to drive.
We have a mortgage, and if my husband was taken off the road for having a prov license, he would be unable to get to work, public transport doesnt run at 4am. He would simply be fired.
My salary isnt large enough to sustain both the mortgage and two car loans, so what would happen then??
He applied for the test again in June and still hasnt got a date for the test.
The entire system is nonsense, and people like my husband should be looked after and given every chance to earn their license without being bullied off the road.

turbigo

I took lessons in the uk, failed my test twice - with 10 working days between tests (you can sit online and pounce on cancellations, though there is a mandatory 10 day gap between tests). I then moved to Dublin and had more lessons. These lessons involved no dual carriageway driving, and were dedicated exclusively to the test route - it felt like a grind. Which is fair enough given my instructor knew I was taking the test shortly, but nonetheless I felt it was all a bit casual.

The test itself was shorter than in the UK, there was no emergency stop, and no test of reverse bay parking. The points system was slacker also.

In the UK they are currently running a hazard perception section on the Theory test - this is gimmicky but with some tweaking it could be effective.

i passed here first time - though not without some abuse from my tester - I was reluctant to illegally cross a solid white line in order to take a right turn while queuing behind vehicled waiting to turn left. He got heated - I asked if he thought I was too hesitant, and he replied "If you want fcuking instruction, ask your fcuking instructor". Charming.

craichoe

Pipp wrote:

Jeepers, the holier than though attitude on here from some posters is unbelievable. If you were as law abiding and perfect as you like to think you are youd be wearing a halo and wings!!
Anyway, I want to make a point here:
My husband is on a provisional license, and I have a full license. I spent a fortune on lessons and passed first time.
He did the same and failed first time, he immediately re-applied for the test. Due to a bizarre timing conincedence he injured his hand quite badly the day before the second test. So he reapplied again.
Third time round there was a death in the family - a beloved uncle of my husbands. So he didnt do his test, the GP gave him a letter. He was truly devastated so the bloomin driving test was simply put aside.
Now, my main point is regading a point someone made about "not getting a job that requires you to drive if you have a prov license". That is the biggest load of nonsense I have had the misfortune to read on this normally quite incitive forum.
My husband has to drive 40 miles each way to work. He works shift work. If he were to lose his job he would find it very hard to get equivalent work that would not require a car. He tried to get a job locally but no go. So, he has to drive.
We have a mortgage, and if my husband was taken off the road for having a prov license, he would be unable to get to work, public transport doesnt run at 4am. He would simply be fired.
My salary isnt large enough to sustain both the mortgage and two car loans, so what would happen then??
He applied for the test again in June and still hasnt got a date for the test.
The entire system is nonsense, and people like my husband should be looked after and given every chance to earn their license without being bullied off the road.

It sounds to me that you need to put more emphasis on getting a full license asap. if its that critical, i.e. he cant work without a car, then send in a letter from work stating you need it to get to work

Unfortunately

Current waiting list for cancellations in Cork is 1 month with a letter from your employer.

Sounds to me like its been put on the long finger !

DonJose

Vain wrote:

thats a JOKE iv been waiting 4months for my test now its not my fault im still on L plates. anyway who here can say they drive as carefully every day as they did during there test. if it cuts down on road deaths good but its not fair to be blaming L plates when the waiting list is so long..

I'd like to see the provisional license done away with. Last weekend I took my family to the lakes in Westmeath. There was a driving school car there giving a woman lessons. The woman could not keep the car on the road at 30kph and went from side to side and up on the grass verge, on the left and right hand side of the road. The driving instructor had to keep his hand on the steering wheel most of the time. Legally, after her lesson is finished she can get behind the wheel and drive home, as long as she is accompanied. What sense does that make.

The government needs to stop issuing L plates and open hundreds of test centres across the country. This judge is making the right decision, I just wish the Guards upheld the law and keep the unaccompanied L drivers off the road.

wil

Yes Turbigo, there is an ocean of difference in attitude and ability between many instructers here and UK. But then there is also same difference between general public in both countries. You could not get a debate like this going over there. They'd assume you were mad.

Pipp, replace driver with doctor and see if your argument holds water. Both have control over life and death situations daily. (My husband would lose his doctoring job if hes to wait 7 years to do his finals) Assuming your husband was 19, that gave him 2 years already to pass a simple test, even with the worst queues, he'd could have 2 goes in that time. To reach 25 (or more) and not have got on your A long enough to pass is your own poor call. Even the most awkward person could learn enough to pass in 20 proper lessons whether taken over 5 months or 5 weeks. People are willing to spend thousands buying new cars/alloys/trims, thousands for insurance, yet expect to pass a test after a couple of lessons. Where is the fortune being spent.

Holier than though or deadlier than I. I'm no saint but I'd still prefer to avoid a halo until I am old not when some road abuser decides it for me, for my wife or for my kids.

Are we the only country where people have to get a licence and drive to work. Exception is here we do it in reverse order. Few people fully understand, this does not go on in other countries no matter how much you think it is the same elsewhere.

The system is not a joke, the test is not a joke, the law is not a joke, unfortunately all are treated as jokes by the real jokers, those too complacent to administer the system, enforce the law, those who avail of the complacency and use it to their own advantage by driving forever without passing a test, those who already have licences and ignore the fact that their licence is completely devalued and without merit if so many others can drive regardless without it.

Imagine a hospital where half the doctors never did any exams and the real doctors had to work with them regardless, without choice. Uproar and chaos.
Well we have the chaos but unfortunately we get lots of talking but very little uproar.

I having passed my test am a member of the driving community licenced to drive on our roads. With a provisional you are licenced to learn only, NOT drive for work, NOT drive for leisure or social purposes, NOT where when or how you decide. Instead of increasing the standard of driving on the road, this whole complacent attitude drags everyone down to the lowest level where no-one gives a..

Imagine a free for all where nobody needs a real licence to drive, just get in your car and go. Oh wait, thats where we are already.

Thats why we and this subject are being done to death. And the boredom is literally killing.

the_syco

Stekelly wrote:

Which is exactly whats wrong with the country. A minimum number of lessons with a qualified instructor is exactly what is needed for everybody before they should be let near a car alone, regardless of how good they think they are.


Driving lessons should not be a choice.

Anyone with a full license can be a driving instructor. They don't have to be any good. And you get some crap ones.

Stekelly wrote:

What do all the people in ther 20's etc in other countries do? dont take a job that requires driving, be in in getting to/from work or as part of the job, if you cant drive. It doesnt take a genius to work that out.

There's this thing called the countryside, side, right, where there is no public transport, right, so how the f**k do they get from A to B for work? They drive.

Stekelly wrote:

Again I'll use Germany as an example. It takes months to get alicence there because of the need for lessons etc, so just because its the wait for the actual test to come up here instead of mandaotry training, its more or less the same situation.

Have you ever seen how they learn to drive? They learn, and then do the test. We learn, wait 12 f**king months, and then maybe, maybe get a test.

Oh, and for the record, driving without a fully licensed person is breaking the law.

cazzy wrote:

I totally agree with the rule - most accidents in this contry are caused by drivers who have passed their test in last year (according to the experts you are a novice driver for 5 years after starting driving)

So what you're saying is that the test is completely irrelevant? That those who pass the test cause the most accidents?

=-=

What the judge is trying to do is great. It's a pity that the system doesn't work. People have to wait months for a driving test. Someone said to apply early... well the thing is, you only get 6 weeks notice of the test. You apply with 6 months in mind, and the test may be in 6 weeks time.

DonJose

Pipp wrote:

The entire system is nonsense, and people like my husband should be looked after and given every chance to earn their license without being bullied off the road.

You know why he hasn't got a date, because of a loophole in the system thousands of chancers are missing their tests on purpose, then renewing their provisional license. Anyway your husband has already sat one test and FAILED what other country in the world allows incompetent drivers back on the road after failing a test.

Tails142

Holsten wrote:

Glad I don't live in Bray.

It's the same few judges that travel around the country to the various courts during the month.

unkel

wil wrote:

I having passed my test am a member of the driving community licenced to drive on our roads. With a provisional you are licenced to learn only, NOT drive for work, NOT drive for leisure or social purposes, NOT where when or how you decide

That's a refreshing way of putting it, wil. People need to understand it's a privilige, not a right

craichoe

I rang the RSA day on friday

the current waiting period for a cancellation is 1 month.

12 months my ar*e, if you really need it then send in a letter and get a cancellation.

galah

ehm, nevermind the whole license discussion (I learnt to drive in Germany...), what I don't understand is that people still drive their car while they're not insured...(I assume that, as long as you don't have a qualified driver with you as required by law, and cause an accident, your insurance will not pay either - correct?).

THAT'S scary!

And seriously, as long as almost no law is enforced on these roads, why should people change, and get their ass in gear to pass a test? (waiting time in Galway: 48 weeks. Not funny. But that's a different problem). As long as people get away with it, they will...