Raw Discussion - 9/10/07 (contains spoilers!)

krudler

HHH has put over his fair share of talent when needed, but he has buried people too, lets not forget he hasnt won at a wrestlemania since 2003, and has been pinned once and tapped out twice, clean in all situations , in the main event of the biggest show of the year

im in two minds about HHH, yes hes a great wrestler but hes gotten farther than he proabably ever should have due to his off screen relationships with the management, im glad hes back as hes a marquee name that the WWE desperately needs these days but at the same time i dont want him clutching the title for another long run, hes not an idiot at the end of the day though, and he should know that if theres no young talent put over then theres no future for the business

Mr.Nice Guy

validreasoning! wrote:

Wrong. I put one in the stomach for HHHaters everywhere saying they all weren't happy. I have said you were biased on other occasions, you've since proved you were consistant. I just don't have the time and energy to go through months and months of posts.

OK then but I'm sure you can appreciate why I would be annoyed at being called biased when I don't think that's the case.

validreasoning! wrote:

To an extent yes, but i'll make an effort if you make an effort on quitting trying to be condescending and patronising with some of your remarks. It is an opinion forum. But for some reason you give across the impression, and not just to me, that just because you have an answer for everything, makes you correct. It doesn't. I've no problem agreeing to disagree. And you've proved on occasion that neither do you.

I don't feel I've been condescending or patronising. What I wanted acknowledged from the beginning was that Triple H was burying talent and putting all the focus on himself. I eventually got you to concede this was the case but not without you trying to deflect away from the issue entirely by introducing personal comments and red herrings. If you'd just said at the beginning, "yes this is happening but I happen to like it" - as Minto did - then we could have been spared the other stuff!

validreasoning! wrote:

As i already said, a lot of the people who bitch about Triple H, ignore the fact that he's not the only one, and point it out for the sake of HHHating.

But what does what others say have to do with what we are saying? The fact that others may engage in burying talent does not negate the fact that Triple H has been burying talent too.

validreasoning! wrote:

Agreed, as i felt the same way about Hogan in the early 90s. But i'll find it tiresome if it keeps happening with HHH. It just takes more than two weeks for me, that's all.

That's fair enough.

ShawnRaven

Mr.Nice Guy wrote:

I don't feel I've been condescending or patronising.

I do though! There's been a few smart-ass remarks in some of your posts as a way of trying to hammer an exclamation point. Not as such on this particular topic, but in previous ones. You do it a lot with your posts on the politics forums too. But as i've admitted in the past, i took have lost the head when i shouldn't have before. The essential difference is i admit it afterwards. You tend to forget, or ignore that you have done.

What I wanted acknowledged from the beginning was that Triple H was burying talent and putting all the focus on himself. I eventually got you to concede this was the case but not without you trying to deflect away from the issue entirely by introducing personal comments and red herrings. If you'd just said at the beginning, "yes this is happening but I happen to like it" - as Minto did - then we could have been spared the other stuff!

But i wasn't trying to deflect the issue. As already explaned. As for your phrasing about you "getting me to concede", lol what did you do? Win keyboard war II or something? You getting off on some power trip? I said all along that his win over Umaga on RAW the previous week was completely unneccessary and that if it it kept up, then it would be going over the top. That was of my own free will, so you didn't get me to concede anything.

But whatever helps you sleep at night.

The personal comments, we're both responsible for that regardless on if you want to acknowledge that or not, again, whatever helps you sleep at night.

As for red herrings - if you want to see the obvious and legit comparisons i had made to those who have done it before and after him as red herrings. Again, whatever makes you sleep at night. It's the wrestling business. As Terry has said, you need to live with it. We've all had to at some stage.

But what does what others say have to do with what we are saying? The fact that others may engage in burying talent does not negate the fact that Triple H has been burying talent too.

No it doesn't, i'll freely admit. But where in this entire thread did i ever claim that it did?

VR!

devils_reject

The only good thing on Raw is...Santino Marella , guy cracks me up!!!

I say stick the strap on him!!!

:P

Bubs101

validreasoning! wrote:

As for red herrings - if you want to see the obvious and legit comparisons i had made to those who have done it before and after him as red herrings. Again, whatever makes you sleep at night. It's the wrestling business. As Terry has said, you need to live with it. We've all had to at some stage.

VR!

VR!, That's genius, making a post about how you haven't used red herrings about a previous red herring. ROFL. As pointed out, Cena lost alot on Raw and made OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOmanga look very credible and I'm pretty sure Hogan did the same before WCW but I'm far to young to remember. Trips lost last night but before then he destroyed everybody. FOR NO REASON.

What's the difference between Hunter doing it and Snitsky doing it?

I used to hate Cena but he has really picked up his game this year and Hunter hasn't matched him, either before or after his return. You refuse to acknowledge his improvement and only cede that his destruction of OOOManga was unecessary. What about Londrick, Carlito etc.?? All the good work Cena put in making these guys look credible is being destroyed by Hunter who hasn't helped anyone up since Shelton

ShawnRaven

Bubs101 wrote:

VR!, That's genius, making a post about how you haven't used red herrings about a previous red herring. ROFL. As pointed out, Cena lost alot on Raw and made OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOmanga look very credible and I'm pretty sure Hogan did the same before WCW but I'm far to young to remember. Trips lost last night but before then he destroyed everybody. FOR NO REASON.

Hogan lost to very few people on TV in WWE. In fact around 1993 a grand total of two people had a clean pin victory over Hogan, Warrior and Jacques Rougeau!

It's wrestling, people have been watching this long and they're still looking for reasons for winning and losing? Folks... come on!

What's the difference between Hunter doing it and Snitsky doing it?

F*ck all as far as i'm concerned!

I used to hate Cena but he has really picked up his game this year and Hunter hasn't matched him, either before or after his return. You refuse to acknowledge his improvement and only cede that his destruction of OOOManga was unecessary. What about Londrick, Carlito etc.?? All the good work Cena put in making these guys look credible is being destroyed by Hunter who hasn't helped anyone up since Shelton

If Carlito and Londrick were being held back by HHH, sure. But they're not, they're not even in the guys league. Using those two as examples is merely grasping at straws

VR!

ShawnRaven

edit - bizarre double post

Mr.Nice Guy

validreasoning! wrote:

I do though! There's been a few smart-ass remarks in some of your posts as a way of trying to hammer an exclamation point. Not as such on this particular topic, but in previous ones. You do it a lot with your posts on the politics forums too. But as i've admitted in the past, i took have lost the head when i shouldn't have before. The essential difference is i admit it afterwards. You tend to forget, or ignore that you have done.

I will freely admit that there have been times before where I have "lost the head" but contrary to what you say I do not tend "to forget or ignore that", in actual fact I have acknowledged I've done so plenty of times. I do not believe I have acted that way in this thread and I think if you look at some of the comments sent my way, I think I've been remarkably restrained. Least I did not throw about personal insults towards anybody.

validreasoning! wrote:

But i wasn't trying to deflect the issue. As already explaned.

With respect that's not true. It took you several pages before you ended up acknowledging what I had been saying all along. Before that you brought up other wrestlers, called me biased and other such stuff. We got there in the end though

validreasoning! wrote:

As for your phrasing about you "getting me to concede", lol what did you do? Win keyboard war II or something? You getting off on some power trip?

No power trip on my part but it's plainly obvious I got you to concede your original point because you originally argued with me that Triple H was burying guys before basically admitting that it was in fact happening but that you liked it. It's not me that's come round to your point of view, is it?

validreasoning! wrote:

I said all along that his win over Umaga on RAW the previous week was completely unneccessary and that if it it kept up, then it would be going over the top. That was of my own free will, so you didn't get me to concede anything.

You initially argued that Triple H wasn't burying guys (you even disputed the 5 man burial job) yet you eventually changed your tune and agreed with my point that "Triple H has buried talent. Now you're either like Minto and you are fine with that (which seems to be the case) or you're like me and people like Bubs who find the whole thing tiresome."

It's pretty straightforward. Incidentally though I note from your recent podcast that you feel the things said about Umaga being buried were "over the top".

validreasoning! wrote:

The personal comments, we're both responsible for that regardless on if you want to acknowledge that or not, again, whatever helps you sleep at night.

I did not engage in any personal comments and if you can highlight where I supposedly did so I'll gladly discuss that with you but there is of course no evidence as you well know. However if making me a scapegoat helps you sleep at night then good luck to you.

validreasoning! wrote:

As for red herrings - if you want to see the obvious and legit comparisons i had made to those who have done it before and after him as red herrings. Again, whatever makes you sleep at night.

So you don't believe answering criticism of Triple H by bringing up abuses of power by guys like Hogan is introducing a red herring into the discussion? What do you call it then?

validreasoning! wrote:

No it doesn't, i'll freely admit. But where in this entire thread did i ever claim that it did?

Why else would you bring up other names?

You should have just originally acknowledged that Triple H was burying talent - and admitted that you liked it - but instead you didn't and tried to make out there was some sort of logic at work on the part of Triple H. It took three pages but I finally got you to concede that it was in fact what I had been saying all along - Triple H burying talent.

I think now you are trying to prolong the debate and get the last word in. But your recent posts indicate that I was right and you...well, you can figure the rest out. (PS hope that didn't come across as patronising!)

ShawnRaven

Mr.Nice Guy wrote:

Least I did not throw about personal insults towards anybody.

No, you're superhuman who never makes mistakes, right?

With respect that's not true. It took you several pages before you ended up acknowledging what I had been saying all along. Before that you brought up other wrestlers, called me biased and other such stuff. We got there in the end though

Go back to the all about the game thread. I still stand by my opinion that Londrick and Carlito weren't burials. However once it happened to Umaga, the first thing i said was that it was unnecessesary.

No power trip on my part but it's plainly obvious I got you to concede your original point because you originally argued with me that Triple H was burying guys before basically admitting that it was in fact happening but that you liked it. It's not me that's come round to your point of view, is it?

I didn't particularly say i liked it, just that it's always been happening with someone. Which it has and that i'm well used to it. You on the other hand still get outraged by it. That however, is just how we react to such things.

You initially argued that Triple H wasn't burying guys (you even disputed the 5 man burial job) yet you eventually changed your tune and agreed with my point that "Triple H has buried talent. Now you're either like Minto and you are fine with that (which seems to be the case) or you're like me and people like Bubs who find the whole thing tiresome."

You mean the two man burial. A finisher not involved in a match doesn't mean crap, and you know it.

It's pretty straightforward. Incidentally though I note from your recent podcast that you feel the things said about Umaga being buried were "over the top".

See above, that was the first thing i did say about Umaga on RAW two weeks ago. I never denied that. For Londrick and Carlito in a non match doesn't matter as they're not likely to be main event players anytime in the near future, so whats the big deal. Umaga on the other hand, lost to HHH after Cena did spend making him look good. However i still stand by my opinion that HHH is far more credible to lose to than Cena. If i wanted to job to either of those two, it wouldn't be Cena!

I did not engage in any personal comments and if you can highlight where I supposedly did so I'll gladly discuss that with you but there is of course no evidence as you well know. However if making me a scapegoat helps you sleep at night then good luck to you.

Personal comments, no, but there were times when you came across as a patronising, pompus git. Take that for what it's worth. But that has been already discussed, and you even admitted it too earlier in this post.

So you don't believe answering criticism of Triple H by bringing up abuses of power by guys like Hogan is introducing a red herring into the discussion? What do you call it then?

A comparison. It's often used in discussions.

It took three pages but I finally got you to concede that it was in fact what I had been saying all along - Triple H burying talent.

Again, whatever helps you sleep at night. This has been going around in circles for three days now and to be honest, neither of us are going to back the f*ck down. Are we?

I think now you are trying to prolong the debate and get the last word in. But your recent posts indicate that I was right and you...well, you can figure the rest out. (PS hope that didn't come across as patronising!)

It didn't, you're learning. As for the last word, take it, here, it's all yours. But more posts by other people in this thread tend to point that you're the Cena lover who bitches every time HHH wins a match.

But again... whatever helps you sleep at night. That's MY last word on the subject. Anything you wish to add, here, i'm serving it right now to you on a silver platter! Enjoy!

VR!

TherapyBoy

How about a thread where you two guys don't take it over with your HHH Vs Cena stuff? In my opinion, you're both biased and I'm just bored of reading your arguments now.

ShawnRaven

How about not reading it then?
Who are you anyway?
VR!

Mr.Nice Guy

validreasoning! wrote:

No, you're superhuman who never makes mistakes, right?

Nah you're confusing me with another guy.

validreasoning! wrote:

Go back to the all about the game thread. I still stand by my opinion that Londrick and Carlito weren't burials. However once it happened to Umaga, the first thing i said was that it was unnecessesary.

I don't see what that thread has to do with you acknowledging my point on this thread.

validreasoning! wrote:

You mean the two man burial. A finisher not involved in a match doesn't mean crap, and you know it.

Wrong. There are many ways to demean a guy and you have acknowledged that he has been burying talent.

validreasoning! wrote:

See above, that was the first thing i did say about Umaga on RAW two weeks ago. I never denied that. For Londrick and Carlito in a non match doesn't matter as they're not likely to be main event players anytime in the near future, so whats the big deal. Umaga on the other hand, lost to HHH after Cena did spend making him look good. However i still stand by my opinion that HHH is far more credible to lose to than Cena. If i wanted to job to either of those two, it wouldn't be Cena!

It's pretty hard to determine who can be main event players when you are busy burying young guys. People are more than justified in criticising Triple H.

validreasoning! wrote:

Personal comments, no, but there were times when you came across as a patronising, pompus git. Take that for what it's worth. But that has been already discussed, and you even admitted it too earlier in this post.

Then don't tell me I'm responsible for personal comments when I'm not. And as for the "patronising, pompous git" stuff the words, pot, kettle and black spring to mind!

validreasoning! wrote:

A comparison. It's often used in discussions.

You didn't want a discussion though which meant it was less of a comparison and more of a red herring.

validreasoning! wrote:

Again, whatever helps you sleep at night. This has been going around in circles for three days now and to be honest, neither of us are going to back the f*ck down. Are we?

To me it's not about who backs down but rather acknowledging the facts.

validreasoning! wrote:

It didn't, you're learning. As for the last word, take it, here, it's all yours. But more posts by other people in this thread tend to point that you're the Cena lover who bitches every time HHH wins a match.

I bitch over appalling television which is what Triple H burials amount to. There is no evidence to the contrary.

validreasoning! wrote:

But again... whatever helps you sleep at night. That's MY last word on the subject. Anything you wish to add, here, i'm serving it right now to you on a silver platter! Enjoy!

VR!

As soon as you acknowledged the burials had taken place I was satisfied. The following stuff was frankly unnecesary.

Bizarre-Ink wrote:

How about a thread where you two guys don't take it over with your HHH Vs Cena stuff? In my opinion, you're both biased and I'm just bored of reading your arguments now.

As VR pointed out, maybe don't read it then?

flahavaj

I'm not touching the HHH debate, except to point out to those that are bitching about his selling that they guy was carried out of the ring last night, its not as if he pedigree'd Orton/Umaga and danced a jg to the back in glee.

Anyhow on a brighter note, i managed to see Raw spoiler free and my God am I glad because when Michaels' music hit I unashamedly marked like a little bitch!!! Its VERY rarelt that WWE TV does that to me any more, but that was a special and totally unexpected moment. Great stuff. I just hope he's fully recovered from his injuries.

Oh and Santino is ****ing hilarious, he's been an absolute revelation of the last couple of months.

TherapyBoy

How about not reading it then?

It's kind of hard to avoid it guys, how many pages and how many threads we talking about now with you two quoting each other endlessly. You've both made your points and we all know where you stand.

Who are you anyway?

Does it really matter? Some guy who doesn't have 6,000 posts or w/e

ec18

Bizarre-Ink wrote: »

It's kind of hard to avoid it guys, how many pages and how many threads we talking about now with you two quoting each other endlessly.

Why???...It makes the Boards more entertaining for the rest of us:D.......Lets face it the board would be very boring without VR! and MNG

TherapyBoy

How is it entertaining to see two people argue relentlessly? Just repeating themselves...

kyp_durron

validreasoning! wrote: »

Who are you anyway?
VR!

Christ, you're making your self look like a complete ass with that comment.

Minto

kyp_durron wrote: »

Christ, you're making your self look like a complete ass with that comment.

Try listening to this weeks podcast! He makes a Benoit comment, for which, I'm almost sure he will be going to Hell for!

Vince135792003

Bizarre-Ink wrote: »

How is it entertaining to see two people argue relentlessly? Just repeating themselves...

It's kind of like going around one of those roundabouts in a play ground when you were kid. At the start its kinda fun but gradually you just get dizzy.

ShawnRaven

Bizarre-Ink wrote: »

Does it really matter? Some guy who doesn't have 6,000 posts or w/e

Then join the f*cking club, but if you don't like it, don't read it. Certainly don't whine about it!

VR!

PS: Here's the amusing thing! Myself and MNG stopped the discussion, and yet people are STILL complaining about it. And we're the assholes here?

ShawnRaven

kyp_durron wrote: »

Christ, you're making your self look like a complete ass with that comment.

C'mon, you've seen me post here before, do you really think I care less what other people think of me? If i did, i'd have pissed off a long time ago.

VR!

rossie1977

Minto wrote: »

Try listening to this weeks podcast! He makes a Benoit comment, for which, I'm almost sure he will be going to Hell for!

if there really is a hell (which i bet there isn't) then we are all destined there for sure. Didn't God kill over 2 million people in the bible :eek:

and that fulfills my pointless post of the day, lets not start a religious argument................

Vince135792003

validreasoning! wrote: »

Certainly don't whine about it!

He's allowed to isn't he? Your basically whining about him whining.

It's good to have new people on the board too I think. Don't scare them off.

Minto

rossie1977 wrote: »

if there really is a hell (which i bet there isn't) then we are all destined there for sure. Didn't God kill over 2 million people in the bible :eek:

O......k!

rossie1977 wrote: »

lets not start a religious argument................

I agree!

ShawnRaven

Vince135792003 wrote: »

He's allowed to isn't he? Your basically whining about him whining.

It's good to have new people on the board too I think. Don't scare them off.

Fair point, I just don't get why people sign up to a forum to complain over contribute. Now you can't say i started off here giving out. If i don't want to read a particular topic (for instance, the ROH thread, as i have no interest in the promotion), then i won't read it! If it's going nowhere or i start to get a headache reading it, i stop! I don't bitch about it.

I'm all on for new people! More podcast listeners!
VR!

ec18

See this board would be a lot more boring without VR! and MNG....even if all they do is whine about each other...and everyone else who tries to disagree with them

ShawnRaven

ec18 wrote: »

See this board would be a lot more boring without VR! and MNG....even if all they do is whine about each other...and everyone else who tries to disagree with them

OYYYYYYYY!! I wholeheartedly disagree with that statement!! :P
VR!

Bubs101

In all fairness, what was Ink on about. Surely the point about message boards is to encourage heated debate??

Anywho, back on to the original off topic discussion, why do you hate Cena specifically?
He's not champion anymore, he's actually a good wrestler and has outperformed Hunter. What's wrong with him

hyn-zie

Just watched raw last night, i was excited to see HHH have his rematch, i was thinking some one had to come out and help him while he was been savaged by Umaga, but the ending was better, i was delighted to see HBK come out, **** my eye's were so wide open i so shocked, does this mean its the return of DX, ? ? ? ? ? Since ****ty wrestler Cena is injured there gonna have to have something to keep the ratings up, I 'm kinda delghted that Orton is the champ, he's a legend, !

Gillie

Is Raw going to be repeated on Sky Sports this weekend?

Cheers

ShawnRaven

Gillie wrote: »

Is Raw going to be repeated on Sky Sports this weekend?

Cheers

It sometimes gets repeated on fridays around 5ish, but thats as far as it goes. I recorded it last night on the hard drive. Lemme know if yer stuck and i'll sort ya.

VR!

Gillie

Well tbh I havn't watched any WWE since Benoit died - not because he died just other commitments and a lack of Sky Sports!

But this thread has peaked my interest again.
Might give you a shout if i'm stuck so. Cheers.

ShawnRaven

Gillie wrote: »

Well tbh I havn't watched any WWE since Benoit died - not because he died just other commitments and a lack of Sky Sports!

But this thread has peaked my interest again.
Might give you a shout if i'm stuck so. Cheers.

They keep chopping and changing the channels too. It's usually on Sports 3, but occasionally it gets moved it gets moved to Xtra, hell the repeat was on 2 last night!!

VR!

Gillie

2!
That's a first I would have thought!

ec18

validreasoning! wrote: »

OYYYYYYYY!! I wholeheartedly disagree with that statement!! :P
VR!

hehe.....its true...oh its damn true :P

ShawnRaven

ec18 wrote: »

hehe.....its true...oh its damn true :P

That we bring life into the forums? You got that right.
VR!

ec18

validreasoning! wrote: »

That we bring life into the forums? You got that right.
VR!

Please...Tell me you did not just say that...;)

ShawnRaven

I did, but i was quoting you!
VR!

ec18

true