Engine Emissions - how much to fix??

Cheese Princess

Hi guys
I posted this in another thread the other day but haven't had any responses.

Had my NCT this morning and failed because of the emissions.
At low idle the CO was 3.17%, it needs to be under 0.5%. At high idle it was 3.48% and should be under 0.3%. The lambda is 0.906 and should be between 0.97 and 1.03.

Does anyone know if this is a simple thing to fix and how much I should expect to pay for it?


I'm very paranoid about mechanics ripping me off so can anyone tell me if it's a big deal to get the emissions sorted out and how much it should cost?

I just called a garage and they said I might need a new catalytic converter which would be about 300 quid. Does this sound right?

The car is a 95 Punto.

Thanks!

cantdecide

A Cat (as they call them) can be expensive. Ring around the exhaust centres and get some prices. You could get a used one but make sure it's from a low mileage car.

Breakers on Ebay. It's not a new car anymore and I dare say it probably won't see too many more years so avoid big expenses.

Could also be the lambda sensor itself (in the exhaust). Probably a little cheaper.

If you're sure its the cat, you probably won't get ripped off over this generally, it's a yoke that's either right or wrong and will take less thatn half an hour to replace.

Mr.Diagnostic

Hi,

It is not possible to answer the question as to cost. There are simply too many possible causes for your emission failure.

One thing I will tell you is that a new cat will not cure that. It may possibly need a cat, it is impossible to tell from the info on an NCT sheet, but that alone will not get it to pass.

Armadillo

Could be Cat and\or lambda sensor but it depends on:
What condition is the engine in?
Has it big mileage?
Was it fully serviced? Oil\filters\plugs\leads
Any exhaust leaks?

JHMEG

If you do need a new cat, do not get one from a breaker's yard as it'll most likely be fooked. A spurious one from a motor factors should cost you less than 200 quid.

shawnee

There is an additive available in Motor Factors which will reduce the emmisions quite a bit. I was in the NCT office with my car and this bloke came in and had his car passed the emmissions test. The car had failed miserably the first time, but following the additive and a bit of hard driving, it flew through the test next time round.
I posted this in another thread the other day but haven't had any responses.

Had my NCT this morning and failed because of the emissions.
At low idle the CO was 3.17%, it needs to be under 0.5%. At high idle it was 3.48% and should be under 0.3%. The lambda is 0.906 and should be between 0.97 and 1.03.

Does anyone know if this is a simple thing to fix and how much I should expect to pay for it?


I'm very paranoid about mechanics ripping me off so can anyone tell me if it's a big deal to get the emissions sorted out and how much it should cost?

I just called a garage and they said I might need a new catalytic converter which would be about 300 quid. Does this sound right?

The car is a 95 Punto.

Thanks![/QUOTE]

JHMEG

By the sounds of it yer man had a diesel. Driving the stones out of a diesel is a common cure to clean out the exhaust. Doesn't apply to petrols tho.

And your CO is off the scale... there is something definitely wrong.

E92

If the emissions are wrong, then the malfunction light should have come on.

Its a yellow light that looks like this:


The AA's website will tell you more about it.

If the electrics and the electrical system checks are working properly that light should have come on ages ago.

I'm making the assumption that Puntos have this light of course, I can't say if they actually do or not, but virtually every fuel injected car with a catalytic convertor should have this light in it, so even though it is entirely possible, I'd be very surprised if the Punto didn't have this light in it.

So it might be more than just the emissions that are wrong.....

JHMEG

E92 wrote:

If the emissions are wrong, then the malfunction light should

should is the operative word. The MIL light rarely comes on in real life, unless a sensor etc is completely dead.

Altho that's not to say that E92 is wrong.. the bulb might be gone. Does it light up when you turn the ignition on (last click of the key before starting)?
I doubt it's on and you have missed it... the NCT will fail the car if it's on (or any other warning light) when they're doing the test.

Esel

JHMEG wrote:

..the NCT will fail the car if it's on (or any other warning light) when they're doing the test.

Don't think the 'any other...' bit is right there?

Cheese Princess

I don't think I've ever seen that light.
There definitely hasn't been anything unusual lighting up recently anyway.

I suppose I'll just have to take it in and see what happens. Someone did suggest getting that additive as well and driving in third gear up the M50 but I'd be afraid to do more damage that way.

I spoke to a guy in a garage yesterday who seemed to think the ratings were extremely high as well....I didn't get it serviced before the NCT because everyone was saying it's easier to find out what's wrong first and then fix it. God only knows what else is wrong with it now :eek:

cantdecide

Just as an aside here, in Puntos, you REALLY need to make sure it's not overheating. Apparently the thermostats go and caus the headgaskets to go then. I think the needle should around half way and ideally it should stay static after warming up in the morning and it should never go into the red. Also listen for rumbling in the back suspension.

If there's nothing else on the fail sheet, that's good.

Realistically though, I'd get it checked thoroughly but be prepared that costs of repairs might make it more viable to scrap it. I think the car is probably worth €500- €700 so if it costs something like that to fix it, I'd probably take my cash an buy something more reliable. That is unless it has very low mileage, like less that 50k, in which case you could probably replace the engine, if that's the cause of your problems.

E92

Cheese Princess wrote:

I suppose I'll just have to take it in and see what happens. Someone did suggest getting that additive as well and driving in third gear up the M50 but I'd be afraid to do more damage that way.

That trick of driving the car like that only applies to diesels. Its no good for a petrol.

I think this trick can apply to direct injection petrols too when they get coked up as well. Apparantly they get coked up when they're driven around town or at low speeds too much.
Can anyone confirm this?(and explain why too please;) )

OP don't worry your car doesn't have direct injection, so what I'm asking about doesn't apply to your car.

Cheese Princess

cantdecide wrote:

Just as an aside here, in Puntos, you REALLY need to make sure it's not overheating. Apparently the thermostats go and caus the headgaskets to go then. I think the needle should around half way and ideally it should stay static after warming up in the morning and it should never go into the red. Also listen for rumbling in the back suspension.

If there's nothing else on the fail sheet, that's good.

Realistically though, I'd get it checked thoroughly but be prepared that costs of repairs might make it more viable to scrap it. I think the car is probably worth €500- €700 so if it costs something like that to fix it, I'd probably take my cash an buy something more reliable. That is unless it has very low mileage, like less that 50k, in which case you could probably replace the engine, if that's the cause of your problems.

Yeah everything else on the sheet was fine. I was surprised really that there wasn't any more wrong with it, being such an old car. But the mileage is only 55k. I've gotten two years out of it now with relatively little trouble. I'd like to hang on to it for another year or so if possible.

Funny the difference in prices from one place to another though....I called a place in Crumlin yesterday and they charge 50 to use the testing machine and another place today told me they charge 20. Big difference!

Well hopefully it won't be too drastic. Thanks for all the advice.

landcruiserfj62

hi, the mil on the punto is that little red injector light that comes up when you start the car, and not the engine symbol posted previously. Lambda sensors do give trouble on puntos, as do head gaskets, and also cats. I would start by replacing my Air filter and buying a good quality fuel system cleaner.

JHMEG

landcruiserfj62 wrote:

hi, the mil on the punto is that little red injector light that comes up when you start the car,

OP, there ya go. Is this light coming on? If not the bulb is gone. Start with this.

JHMEG

E92 wrote:

I think this trick can apply to direct injection petrols too when they get coked up as well. Apparantly they get coked up when they're driven around town or at low speeds too much.
Can anyone confirm this?(and explain why too please;) )

I think this is really only the GDI by Mitsubishi as used in the 1.8 Volvo S40 etc. Coking I believe is carbon build up on the injector itself and around the valves. Flooring it now and again should help keep it clean, burning off the carbon. It would happen I imagine as the engine would never see mid to high RPMs in city driving.

AFAIK this is a problem to do with the way direct injection is designed and works (injector in the cylinder exposes it to mad stuff, and by design sprays fuel on the cylinder walls). I'd love to know have VW etc cured it, as there'll be a lot more coked cars out there if they haven't.

stevenmu

Cheese Princess wrote:

I suppose I'll just have to take it in and see what happens. Someone did suggest getting that additive as well and driving in third gear up the M50 but I'd be afraid to do more damage that way.

I've used redex fuel system cleaner on a car that failed and it halved the emissions, I doubt it would fix emissions as far off as yours but it's worth a try along with getting it checked by a mechanic.

And could be wrong but I think driving at high revs for a prolonged period (3rd gear on the m50) would damage the cat.

Esel

Definitely look at the air filter.

sc4rf4ce

as previously posted, try and get a cat from a breakers that came of a low mileage car. your spark plugs may need changing, as if they are misfiring and not replaced. over time they can damage your catalytic converter.
does the car ever splutter, or backfire on you?

E92

JHMEG wrote: »

I think this is really only the GDI by Mitsubishi as used in the 1.8 Volvo S40 etc. Coking I believe is carbon build up on the injector itself and around the valves. Flooring it now and again should help keep it clean, burning off the carbon. It would happen I imagine as the engine would never see mid to high RPMs in city driving.

AFAIK this is a problem to do with the way direct injection is designed and works (injector in the cylinder exposes it to mad stuff, and by design sprays fuel on the cylinder walls). I'd love to know have VW etc cured it, as there'll be a lot more coked cars out there if they haven't.

Thanks for the detailed explanation.

As for VAG's, BMWs, Alfas, a lot models from these makes now employ direct injection for their petrol engines, so yeah, it will be very interesting to see will they get coked up in time to come.

Of course it was Mitsubishi who were the first to put a direct injection petrol into production.

You never see any new Mitsubishis with GDi though, I've always wondered why they moved away from it?

As for the GDI engine getting coked up, when my family bought an S40 with direct injection, a family friend who is a mechanic said that our car was very slow(well the 1.8 S40 is slow anyway for a 1.8, but ours was even slower than a normal one) for a 1.8. The cause? Coking. The Volvo garage even told us that it was because of the direct injection that it happened. As for why it happened, you're spot on, apparantly the previous owner drove it around town mostly.

The reason I mention all of that is because of something I found out afterwards. Direct Injection needs 98 RON to reduce carbon build ups apparantly. 98RON is supposed to be a higher quality fuel(though Volvo say 95 RON is fine in a Mitsubishi engined S40).

I think the reason the GDI engined Mitsubishis and S40 suffered from the problem is because you need Low Sulphut fuel. Low Sulphur fuel is only recently available here. When direct injected models of Mitsubishis and S40s were on sale, Low Sulphur fuel wasn't available here at the time.
Which is probably why they were so prone to coking.

BMW don't offer their new range of direct injection petrols for sale in America or Austrailia, because direct injection petrols requir low sulphur petrol, and very high quality petrol(neither of which are widely available in either country)

I think though it is fair to say that the lower the sulphur content, the higher the quality though, or are there other things(other than the RON number) that make petrol of high quality?