Aer Lingus threatens to suspend all pilots

Muggy Dev

FlutterinBantam wrote: »

I hope Mannion nails them to the floor,because the amount of upset and angst the have caused the general flying public is nothing short of reckless.

If the Aer Lingus Board keep a cool head,they will and that,as they say, will be the end of that.

As for the constant whinging about FR on PPRune....well,it´s the same mindset isn´t it? So called highly qualified,highly paid professionals holding the rest of us to ransome for their own rarified T´s and C´s.Notice the similarity with our own consultants in the HSE? 220K a year not enough to tempt our doctors to work exclusively in the public sector?

B*llocks! If you can´t run your own business without being blocked at every turn by the likes of the above,there is only one option:Shut it until you can.

I just hope Mannion does´nt bottle it.

juuge

cp251 wrote: »

I mentioned ignorance and there is a classic example of stupidity and ignorance. Next time you fly somewhere, think about those jumped up bus drivers up front and pray to God they are good at their job.

Maybe Doctors are jumped up paramedics, Police are jumped up security guards, Architects are jumped up draughtsmen. Or maybe you haven't a clue what your're talking about.

Here's another PPRuNe thread. It relates to Ryanair but this is what Aer Lingus is aiming for. Note posts 1 and 2 and ask yourself if you would be prepared to put up with those conditions. Read post no 19 too.

Remember too, that to get to the point where they offer you this contract you had to pay them 25,000 Euro to train you. That doesn't include the likely 100,000 Euro it cost you to become a pilot in the first place.

Note also that Ryanair asks you where you want to be based. But you could end up anywhere in Europe.

http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?t=276881&highlight=ryanair&page=2

I would be very worried about the mental stability of the guy up front in the plane if he displayed that level of arrogance.
Nowadays planes are predominantly flown by computers and like everything else run by such devices it's all about knowing what buttons to press. Calm down and realise that the general public have the pilots particularly aer lingus ones, well and truly copped. I’m delighted someone at last will stand up to them.

FlutterinBantam

In fairness now it has to be said that todays Commercial Pilot has a highly skilled job and onerous responsibility.No one really disputes that.

Its this arrogant mindset that leads some to believe that airlines are run for THEIR convenience and aggrandisment rather than as commercial transport companies,who in the simplest terms need to keep their income higher than their expenditure in todays highly competitive and volatile workplace.

Some of the gung ho shíte ( and I make no apology for that profanity) in that pprune forum leads one to believe that these people are at best easily led or at worst so hoist with their own petard that they think the great unwashed out there are total idiots.

The safety net has been removed from Aer Lingus,its sink or swim now,however, apparently this reality has yet to permeate into the rarefied air of the cockpit,then again maybe it has....

Time will tell.

cp251

With due respect most of you have no clue as to what it takes to be a pilot. pprune is not a great example as it is full of wannabees and people with issues. But this is absolute bollox to put it politely.

Nowadays planes are predominantly flown by computers and like everything else run by such devices it's all about knowing what buttons to press.

That is easily the most stupid and ignorant comment I've seen on this forum. It certainly supersedes the last stupid, ignorant comment.
I'm a pilot, not flying airlines but anyone who makes a comment like this knows absolutely nothing about flying.

Do you honestly think that the current level of safety and reliability in the airline business is down to a bunch of arrogant overpaid prima donnas who spend their time pushing buttons and programming computers?

Do you have even the slightest idea of what is involved in transporting your pathetic little body to a beach somewhere south of here?

I have a lot of airline pilot friends, none of whom are arrrogant. None of them like to be treated a 'glorified bus drivers'. All of them, know the reality of airline flying and all of them can tell stories of moments when they earned every single cent of the money they earn every year.

Let me assure you, there are no arrogant airline pilots. Every one of them is one failed medical away from losing their job. One mistake away from ending their career. One accident away from ending their life and that of their passengers.

How many of you non pilots can honestly say they have to face that reality every day?

Muggy Dev

With the greatest of respect cp251.you´re way off topic.

FlutterinBantam

Cp251 could I draw your attention to the thread title.

strangely enough the only two items you chose to highlight "bus drivers" and "flown by computers" is one any person with a modicum of experience knows is not true.

The Aer lingus issue is what is in question here and its future viability viz a viz the threatened dispute with the pilots..

RoundyMooney

juuge, your comments are out of order.

Calling professionals glorified button pushers is not a positive, or accurate contribution.

As someone else said above, reasonable minds would not diminish the skill or the professionalism of any flight crew, but the core issue here is the transformation of the aviation industry over the last two decades.

It is no longer the exclusive domain of the well off, or those on business expenses, and those who have been in the business and have borne witness to this change, I imagine, have found the change in their working environment somewhat disconcerting to say the least.

cp251, if you want to talk about the issue you outlined above, you're more than welcome to start a new thread on it. It may prove an interesting discussion.

silverharp

I think the pilots are deluded to be honest, if they believe they can maintain conditions above industry standard then the airline is headed for financial trouble in the future. Aer Lingus has no usp or ipr, they can't maintain a cost structure above their competitors, I for one would not pay 1E more to fly aer lingus v another airline all things being equal, and their will be no bailout the next time aerlingus gets into financial trouble. They risk the airline going bankrupt and a new set of T's and C's will be imposed on staff that will be a shock to the remaining staff.

juuge

cp251 wrote: »

With due respect most of you have no clue as to what it takes to be a pilot. pprune is not a great example as it is full of wannabees and people with issues. But this is absolute bollox to put it politely.



That is easily the most stupid and ignorant comment I've seen on this forum. It certainly supersedes the last stupid, ignorant comment.
I'm a pilot, not flying airlines but anyone who makes a comment like this knows absolutely nothing about flying.

Do you honestly think that the current level of safety and reliability in the airline business is down to a bunch of arrogant overpaid prima donnas who spend their time pushing buttons and programming computers?

Do you have even the slightest idea of what is involved in transporting your pathetic little body to a beach somewhere south of here?

I have a lot of airline pilot friends, none of whom are arrrogant. None of them like to be treated a 'glorified bus drivers'. All of them, know the reality of airline flying and all of them can tell stories of moments when they earned every single cent of the money they earn every year.

Let me assure you, there are no arrogant airline pilots. Every one of them is one failed medical away from losing their job. One mistake away from ending their career. One accident away from ending their life and that of their passengers.

How many of you non pilots can honestly say they have to face that reality every day?

It is regrettable that in your neurotic ranting about airline pilots you’ve managed to insult bus drivers who on a daily basis transport, safely, many thousands of passengers in Ireland without the use of high powered auto pilot computers. Nice one!
Just remember the day of the hoity toity uniformed ego maniac flying our national airline presuming to be somehow entitled to a rarefied existence funded by the taxpayer is well and truly nigh. Get used to that fact.

juuge

RoundyMooney wrote: »

juuge, your comments are out of order.

Calling professionals glorified button pushers is not a positive, or accurate contribution.

As someone else said above, reasonable minds would not diminish the skill or the professionalism of any flight crew, but the core issue here is the transformation of the aviation industry over the last two decades.

It is no longer the exclusive domain of the well off, or those on business expenses, and those who have been in the business and have borne witness to this change, I imagine, have found the change in their working environment somewhat disconcerting to say the least.

cp251, if you want to talk about the issue you outlined above, you're more than welcome to start a new thread on it. It may prove an interesting discussion.

We are all entitled to our points of view are we not?
Perhaps therefore when pronouncing someone’s comments to be ‘out of order’ you would be well served to be critical across the board and denounce comments such as ‘transporting your pathetic little body' as submitted by cp251 or do I detect a note of bias here.

Tenger

FlutterinBantam wrote: »

Mannion is dead right.
Aer Lingus have been in the news for the last two years going on and on and on with talks,discussions,negotiations,strikes,threats of strikes,impending strikes.
QUOTE]
The company agreed a new cost saving plan last October with staff. 8 weeks later they reneged on that plan and DEMANDED more. The company have still to deliver on that agreement while staff began new T&C last november.
The company said staff had to sign new contracts last March and refused to even meet and discuss the new demands with Union reps.

The pilots union have agreed to a new base in Belfast with different terms and conditions and a lower salary than Dublin. The pilots want to able to transfer to Belfast (accepting the new salary) without being forced to resign from EI first. (so losing all seniority and current promotion prospects) To the pilots it doesn't matter where the base is. it is the manner of the base staffing that is contentious. There is also a problem of transfering their existing pensions with them.

BTW Ryanair pilots and many others get better paid than Aer Lingus.

100 out of 480 pilots have expressed an interest in transfering to BFS base. The pilot do not have a problem with the lower salary at BFS. EI has lots of experienced pilots who could transfer to BFS, and get a promotion. this pilots have many years of experience. EI has actually lowered its standards of recruitment for the Belfast base.

Concerning underworked; commercial Pilots can legally do a maximum of 900 flight hours in any given 12 month period. EI pilots regularly approach this threshold so how can they be said to be underworked?

The pilots are not going on strike, they are being suspended, it is different.Aer Lingus suspended those pilots without warning them first which is not legal under irish labour laws.

Another thing to remember is that EI spent 30 million euro on consultants for floatation and a further 16 million after floatation as the original bunch didn't consider Ryanair might try to buy shares. Why not just buy 16 million worth of shares?

Several posters have praised Dermot Mannion. He arrived from Emirates and was supposed to have Mid East expertise to help the new Dubai route. The Dubai route has failed badly,EI is now considering stopping it in March. mannion received a 900,000 Euro bonus several months ago.
Also the current head of EI human reources has had two court cases against her by former assistants for bullying and harrassment. Off topic yes but I wanted to draw your attention to the level of ineptitude in the top levels of EI.

The pilots have agreed to change but the company refuses to discuss change with them. The company want to enforce change. Currently the company are illegally withholding a national pay increase under the PPF which has no preconditions attached to it.

Muggy Dev

Bramble wrote: »

Off topic yes but I wanted to draw your attention to the level of ineptitude in the top levels of EI.

Yeah...they´ve certainly had their moments.Who will forget the one day stopage earlier this year when Mannion expressed his sincere gratitude on RTE news to the members of SIPTU who facilitated the disembarcation of two flight arrivals and the absurd claims from the CEO and the Chairman that the FR offer seriously undervalued the company despite being the guts of 80 cents above the original offer price.

But a year at the helm of a public company has taught both men some harsh realities,chief amoung which is the inescapable conclusion that it is the EI unions that will thwart every attempt the company makes to drive the business forward.Google any irish based news site and witness the interminable list of union threats to disrupt the company.Google FR and you will see an almost equally long list of new route announcements and reports of better than expected profits.

The EI board are fully aware that they must break this cycle of threats,weed out restrictive practices,slash costs and establish their right to manage and grow the business.IMO if they have´nt fully implemented their cost cutting plans and have Belfast up and runnning by christmas then the instituional investors and FR will,quite rightly, demand the resignations of the executive board members.To add to their woes,the share price was last traded at 2.31 euros on friday which means all parties are taking a very unpleasant bath at present.The pilots themselves are in a 7 million euro hole having bought in at over 3 euros.If Mannion shuts the airline next week the share price could well dip below 2 euros which would make them highly expossed to the possibility of a takeover bid.

High stakes indeed.

juuge

When I originally decided to air my views on this particular topic, I thought how best can I support my proposition that the level of arrogance among aer lingus pilots will do little to garner public support for their present predicament.
I decided to illicit a response by being over the top in my comments.
This has proven now to have been a successful tactic.
The contributor cp251 in his response to my submission showed all the traits of one totally engrossed in his own ego and that of those he chooses to support.
Referring to a number of professions which in his estimation are mere minnows in comparison to the rarefied echelons of the aer lingus pilots establishment and pilots in general.
His comment regarding ‘pathetic soles being hauled away on their holidays’ sums it up precisely and I couldn’t have wished for a better response in establishing my original point. Thank you for that cp251.

FlutterinBantam

Meanwhile back in reality land...... hold the drums and trumpets please.

Aer Lingus is in a hole

The Company needs to cut costs fast....like fast.

Cannot..I say again cannot keep goin round the houses on interminable negotiations, with little or no outcome.
Cannot continue on as before..result = out of business

Mannion has the ball in his hand,and must,I say again,must ,score on this play.

Otherwise its curtains.

Do people not understand this.????

RoundyMooney

juuge,

Everyone is entitled to an opinion. Your comments however, were a blatant troll, and you have admitted to this in post #44, above.

Some posters should know better than to rise to trolling, but my response to this, was, is and will be based on context.

You can take two things from this;

1. If I deem you to be trolling in this forum again, you can take an indefinite break from posting here.

2. If you have an issue with the manner in which I moderate this forum, feel free to start a post on Feedback, outlining your concern.

RoundyMooney

Back at the ranch.

bantam is right, in that the modern world of business is driven by the bean counters, and everything revolves around commercial and financial viability.

Airlines are no exception.

It's a pity the same rules don't apply to the health service, IMHO, but that's another story entirely.

juuge

RoundyMooney wrote: »

juuge,

Everyone is entitled to an opinion. Your comments however, were a blatant troll, and you have admitted to this in post #44, above.

Some posters should know better than to rise to trolling, but my response to this, was, is and will be based on context.

You can take two things from this;

1. If I deem you to be trolling in this forum again, you can take an indefinite break from posting here.

2. If you have an issue with the manner in which I moderate this forum, feel free to start a post on Feedback, outlining your concern.

I take exception to your tone.
You made your coments towards me prior to my admission to what you call 'trolling'.
I'm not interested in bringing this any further, I think the impartial readers will make their own minds up in this instance.

RoundyMooney

juuge wrote: »

You made your coments towards me prior to my admission to what you call 'trolling'.

You didn't have to admit it for it to be readily apparent to me.

juuge wrote: »

I'm not interested in bringing this any further, I think the impartial readers will make their own minds up in this instance.

I'm sure they will, but if you wish to discuss it further, you can PM me or start a Feedback thread. This thread has gone far enough off topic already.

damo

juuge wrote: »

When I originally decided to air my views on this particular topic, I thought how best can I support my proposition that the level of arrogance among aer lingus pilots will do little to garner public support for their present predicament.
I decided to illicit a response by being over the top in my comments.
This has proven now to have been a successful tactic.
The contributor cp251 in his response to my submission showed all the traits of one totally engrossed in his own ego and that of those he chooses to support.
Referring to a number of professions which in his estimation are mere minnows in comparison to the rarefied echelons of the aer lingus pilots establishment and pilots in general.
His comment regarding ‘pathetic soles being hauled away on their holidays’ sums it up precisely and I couldn’t have wished for a better response in establishing my original point. Thank you for that cp251.

bwahahaha!!

Thats really funny reading, the level of hypocrisy in the above quoted post is shocking. Juuge - you criticise cp251 for responding to your ignorant opinions of what constitutes the job of an airline pilot, citing the arrogance and inflated ego of himself and aer lingus pilots. Yet then you arrogantly proclaim yourself a skilled tactician in manipulating people to illicit a certain type of response from them. Your delusion, arrogance and hypocrisy astounds.

Dont believe everything you hear coming out of Michael O' Learys' big mouth - it takes a hell of alot more than a couple of button pushing, jumped up bus driver monkeys to fly a category 3b ils approach under horrible weather condtions, seriously - just be thankful you had competent, highly trained professionals at the controls when you were 'flying around the world'!

Seriously - did a pilot sleep with your wife or something? :rolleyes:

mickoneill30

FlutterinBantam wrote: »

Meanwhile back in reality land...... hold the drums and trumpets please.

Aer Lingus is in a hole

The Company needs to cut costs fast....like fast.

Cannot..I say again cannot keep goin round the houses on interminable negotiations, with little or no outcome.
Cannot continue on as before..result = out of business

Mannion has the ball in his hand,and must,I say again,must ,score on this play.

Otherwise its curtains.

Do people not understand this.????

I agree with you. A friend of mine works for a major (I mean huge) chain of travel agents. I asked her what they're doing for their customers to avoid problems next week. She said after the last problems a month or so ago they don't use Aer Lingus anymore whenever they can avoid it so they've no problems anticipated next week. Which is good for her, but bad for Aer Lingus. How many other companies and customers are doing the same thing?

FlutterinBantam

Well well well... It appears that some sense at last prevailed, and Aer Lingus can go ahead with its Belfast base on more or less the terms it originally wanted.

However,a word of warning,plenty of turbulence ahead for EI.

Cabin crew will be difficult to deal with,mark my words, also ground staff viz a viz cutting the cost base.

Management will have a stronger hand now as a result of facing down the pilots and the "war horses" out at Dublin Airport might have to think again before threatening a down tools.

The real winners are of course the travelling public who deserve a robust air service out of Ireland and not one which staggers from one crisis to the next.

There's still a bit to go!!!!

Muggy Dev

FlutterinBantam wrote: »

There's still a bit to go!!!!

Agreed. I will reserve judgement until I get a squint at the terms of the settlement which for now are,for some reason, deemed confidential to the parties.

Keep an eye on the share price over the coming days....we´ll soon see if the market are happy with the outcome.Last trade 2.32 euros.

Muggy Dev

Aer Lingus issued this to the stock exchange this morning:

"Following the successful conclusion of talks at the LRC early this morning, Aer Lingus is pleased to confirm that the threat of disruption to services this week has been lifted and the airline will be operating a full schedule.

The agreement reached at the LRC, which is subject to IALPA ballot, means that the new Belfast base will open on time with staff employed on local terms and conditions. The agreement also provides a framework for the opening of future bases on local terms and conditions.

We would like to recognise and sincerely thank the LRC and the IALPA group for their commitment and hard work in constructively bringing this issue to a successful conclusion.

We apologise for the unavoidable uncertainty this situation has caused to all of our customers, however we now can look forward to growing Aer Lingus and delivering on our objectives for the benefit of all stakeholders."

No detail yet.Shares up 4% by lunchtime.

Tenger

FlutterinBantam wrote: »

Well well well... It appears that some sense at last prevailed,
Cabin crew will be difficult to deal with,mark my words, also ground staff viz a viz cutting the cost base.
Management will have a stronger hand now as a result of facing down the pilots and the "war horses" out at Dublin Airport might have to think again before threatening a down tools.
The real winners are of course the travelling public who deserve a robust air service out of Ireland and not one which staggers from one crisis to the next.
QUOTE]

Cabin crew have already agreed to the Belfast and other bases. So far the management hasn't lowered itself to talk to them about it. In terms of cost cutting, the cabin have requested a new rostering system that will be more efficient and thus utilise the human resources in a more cost effective way. This has been promised since 2003. just imagine the costsavings if EI had only done what they promised to do 5 years ago.

Management were threatening to suspend 480 stafff over a small number not performing voluntary duties. How can you suspend someone for not doing something they cannot legally do(i.e. training commercial pilots) And as stated already the pilots were not striking(downing tools). The pilots had no plans to prevent flying today or in the future,it was the company that was threatening to stop the planes flying. They were performing industrial action.

Have to agree that the public do need a stable air service from this island. I was shocked to see that Aer Lingus did not bother to tell booked pax that they could change their booking to avoid flying today. To me that smacks of arrogance or dangerous (for the paying customers) brinksmanship.

Muggy Dev

This from Mannion reported on the RTE news site today:

"On the issue of the airline's pay freeze and cost cutting plan, Mr Mannion said there would be no lack of willingness on the part of senior management to engage with staff and unions to bring the issues to a conclusion.

He said he was confident there would be a reciprocal response from them to move forward without causing any further uncertainty or disruption to passengers."

It certainly looks like "peace in our time" has broken out.Time will tell.

One thing is for sure the EI board is not going to put up with any more bullsh*t from the likes of Halpenny,Cullen or Landers.From this moment on,if you wanna walk (or even threaten to) the door will be firmly locked behind you.

Kudos to Mannion for picking the right moment and the right issue to make a stand.Let´s hope the airline and all it´s staff can now get on with the job of making EI a successful and profitable company for all concerned.

Foggy43

The ballot result will not be known until the end of the week, I thought. Although the press expect a vote in favour of whatever concessions the pilots have got.

Mannion isn't going to tell us what concessions he and the board have given to the pilots, is he?
Usually it's both sides happy and shut up about it.

Muggy Dev

Foggy43 wrote: »

Mannion isn't going to tell us what concessions he and the board have given to the pilots, is he?

Not quite true Foggy.We know that for all future bases outside Ireland the pilots will be represented by IALPA.We also know that the "auld" civil service idiom of seniority over ability will apply when it comes to promotions ( which would have been a hard one to swallow) but notwithstanding secondment, local terms and conditions and defined contribution pensions will apply.

FlutterinBantam

That suits Aer Lingus fine,they don't want to be dealing with several different unions.Seniority is always the way EI pilots progressed,nothing too unusual there.

Muggy Dev

FlutterinBantam wrote: »

Seniority is always the way EI pilots progressed,nothing too unusual there.

True, but my comment was meant in the context of a green field situation.

FlutterinBantam

Wasn't referring to your post Muggy,not too sure what my point was to be honest.

One thing for sure though, the Unions will have taken on board the new attitude of management and will know that any attempts to stall/delay/inhibit work practice changes and cost cuts will be met with firm action,and unlike days of yore will be followed through on.