Firearms Consultative Panel

rrpc

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

What more can U put on a firearms dealer that makes him more safer,competant or otherwise better by saying his turnover must be X thousand a year??In that case a clause could be put in place that you would have to turnover 800K say for arguements sake.
So then it would be only proably a monoply of possibly two dealers in Ireland???? Why does three years make you a safer dealer to deal with restricted firearms??You are either competant to deal firearms by being liscensed by the DoJ or you are not??

Grizzly, there are firearms dealers on the FCP and this is their baby by and large. There are many registered dealers who are not true dealers per se, but only got licences in order to avoid having multiple FAC's. I believe that's the reasoning behind the possible turnover limit.

Security,what more can you add to a secure premises to make it more secure without making it totally stupid and vexatious???Right you have built a bunker with alarms,cctv,etc.What more ...a moat full of gators and an A10 warthog tank destroyer on call? There is No such thing as total security in this life

A safe within a safe, or a separate area for restricted firearms would be my interpretation of this.

I just dont understand their thinking legally here when Ireland has been hauled up on this sort of stuff so many times.Are they REALLY that arrogant to think no one would think or challenge this???

The EU doesn't get involved in national firearms laws. This is an area that has always been left to national governments.

Apart from that and a few other clangers on things. Like reloading, shotgun slugs accelarator ammo and restricting multi shot shotguns ,being abit too ambitious with the liscense fees and three year liscense,and insisting on using CANADA as a good example for firing ranges ???.[.All I can say on that is EH?].It is better,mostly than I expected. So 5.5/10 for attempt,but MUST TRY HARDER

What's wrong with Canadian range standards? Anything would be better than JSP403 which was foisted on us in 2006. At least we'll be able to read the standards. JSP403 came with a price tag of £20,000!

The restricted S.I. was not the work of theFCP, they had no input into it. I would suggest you direct any comments you have on dealers to the dealers representatives on the FCP.

bigred

Interesting to see the point raised about reducing the classification on air guns. I presume you'd be aiming at something similar to most euro countries, such as a 12ft/lb ~16J limit will require less stringent regulation?

rrpc

bigred wrote: »

Interesting to see the point raised about reducing the classification on air guns. I presume you'd be aiming at something similar to most euro countries, such as a 12ft/lb ~16J limit will require less stringent regulation?

The NTSA raised this with the FCP. Essentially there's a difficulty with the EUFP where you need to have a FAC to get one and since most European countries don't licence airguns, European shooters can't get an EU Firearms Pass to travel here.

sidneyreilly

Security standards seem fair in whats listed, although only mention of storage regarding 1 restricted firearm

chem

sidneyreilly wrote: »

Security standards seem fair in whats listed, although only mention of storage regarding 1 restricted firearm

Seen as grenades only come in boxes of 50 :D

Joe Black

What if reloading gets held back till the year dot because some guy in a Goverment Suit thinks in the REP of Ireland, we are not as capable of being responsable as other reloading countries let alone our northern cousins and so should not get to reload. What is it about the Northern Irish man /women that can be trusted more than Southern counterpart, insurance and fear of litigation should not cause unnecessary delay.
The cost of commercial Ammo going through the roof (hear you are looking at in or about the €56 per box of good match ammo) what is the regular Joe to do.:(

Grizzly 45

A safe within a safe, or a separate area for restricted firearms would be my interpretation of this.

So add more to the cost for a placebo of more security??

The EU doesn't get involved in national firearms laws. This is an area that has always been left to national governments.

No ,but they certainly get involved in free trade,movement of goods,restrictions on movement of services and monopoly situations.:rolleyes:

What's wrong with Canadian range standards? Anything would be better than JSP403 which was foisted on us in 2006. At least we'll be able to read the standards. JSP403 came with a price tag of £20,000!

Obviously somthing wrong with that country south of Canada,who 100% more experiance in ranges,construction thereof ,gun laws,carrying,etc.Called the United States.

I would suggest you direct any comments you have on dealers to the dealers representatives on the FCP.

[/QUOTE]
Who be that,so I can go away and annoy him??As I intend to set up a dealership.I would like to know.:)

rrpc

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

So add more to the cost for a placebo of more security??

I've got better security than some dealers :eek:

No ,but they certainly get involved in free trade,movement of goods,restrictions on movement of services and monopoly situations.:rolleyes:

It's not creating a monopoly to require certain minimum standards. Nor is it a restriction on movement of goods. Minimum standards are set for food preparation, restaurants, public areas etc.

Obviously somthing wrong with that country south of Canada,who 100% more experiance in ranges,construction thereof ,gun laws,carrying,etc.Called the United States.

That's a bit of a leap. I would take the view that there are as many different range standards in the US as there are states. On top of which the types of firearms that are available in Canada are much the same as here and therefore range criteria will be more appropriate.

Who be that,so I can go away and annoy him??As I intend to set up a dealership.I would like to know.:)

Check out the list of email addresses in the annexe. You'll find them on Sparks' post on this thread.

Joe Black

One area of interest that has emerged is that resistance to reloading
here in the Rep of Ireland is coming from some Ammunition importers who
feel they will loose business, don't know if this argument stands up but
this has to be seen as a big mistake if for what ever reason the sport was
held back because of a few influential but important members of the shooting community, I guess it's a case of looking at the bigger picture
guys, you can't have it both ways, the price of ammo does up the target
shooter shoots less.

Sparks

That wouldn't make any sense as an argument to me Joe, since the ammunition importers are the ones you'll be buying brass and powder and primers and bullets and presses and all the other gear from anyway. They stand to make money, not lose it - and so far, I've heard of nothing but support for the idea from the people you're saying are resisting it.

Rovi

Great to see this sort of communication, thanks to all concerned.

I think at this stage that it's a reasonable supposition to make that members of the FCP read (or get to hear of) what's posted here, so I'd like to throw out a few points that spring immediately to mind for their consideration.
I'm not expecting anyone to identify themselves or even to reply to these on this forum, I'm just making the points in the hope that they may be of some use in their further deliberations.
My apologies if all this has long since been threshed to death by the FCP.

1. Minimum standards of home security
For the purposes of requiring a higher than the minimum security setup, have the Gardai given any feedback on what might constitute a demonstrable security concern, and will they be under any obligation make these concerns known (in writing, preferably) to the applicant?

2. Further discussion on security when travelling with short firearms
Any indications of what they're thinking of?
Over and above "the firearm should be in a case or sleeve locked in the boot of the vehicle and should not, where possible, be accessible to passengers travelling in the vehicle", the only extra security precaution I can think of is having a fixed safe or lockbox concealed in the vehicle.
Unless they want us to transport our 'short firearms' broken up and in separate vehicles, or go as far as the security they're planning for themselves: satellite controlled safes in the boot!

3. The "What is not restricted" list
I'm sure it's just a drafting glitch, but the "All rifles" section reads: "(single shot, semi auto and bolt action)", while the rim-fire section reads: "Single-shot, repeating or semi-automatic".
Would it be reasonable to suppose that the terms "Single-shot, repeating or semi-automatic" might apply to All rifles too, or are other action types (pump, lever, etc) specifically excluded from the definition for some reason?

4. Reloading
As far as I'm concerned, this was one of the Great Leaps Forward in the new legislation, and it's deeply disappointing to see it continually being pushed back.
Are the A.G.'s concerns to do with security or liability?
This is a perfectly normal and ordinary activity pretty much everywhere that private citizens are allowed possess firearms, and I fail to see how an Irish person is somehow much more of a risk than anyone else in the world.
Perhaps a section of the national safety book could be devoted to reloading (the safety and security aspects, that is), and applicants could sign off that they have read and understand it?

5. Licences
Keep pushing for a 'one man, one licence' system; it just makes so much more sense.

6. Silencers/Moderators
Keep pushing on that one too, and try to get them to formalise the 'authorisation' system for these items.


That'll do for the moment.
As I said, I'm not expecting anyone on the FCP to identify themselves or respond to these points here, they're just my thoughts on various things that occurred to me as I read the document.

Again, thanks to Sparks (and DeVore) for posting the content here, and to the shooting representatives on the FCP for all their hard work.

Sikamick

LadyTBolt wrote: »

My my my, the FCP have been busy, which is great to see. They do seem to have covered alot of issues which is great. The various levels of home security seems reasonable and well thought through. Also, the new Firearms Policy Unit at Garda HQ is much needed. Well done FCP!!! It'll all come good eventually.

_________________________________________________________________


I agree with you, a job well done to all concerned on the FCP, even though all of the problems may not be cured, one has to give credit where it's due.

Maybe the powers that be and all involved on the FCP might consider making it a more permanent body to control, advise and help the shooting fraternity.


Michael O'Connor
Secretary to Dublin Target Sports Club

Grizzly 45

Well heres the tailor made solution to transporting the short firearms. www.certer-of -mass.com.Am not affiliated to the company in anyway.Just thought it is a good product.

Yeah,clanger in the transportation of longarms.What do you do if you dont have a boot???But a stationwagon,or 4wd??Lotsa glass and all.Cover it over,or handcuff the trigger mech to a seat strut???More clarity please.

Rrpc.I have a pretty good one too.
But will it be good enough for us to own a restricted firearm??or will moving goalposts be afoot again?? how does a safe within a safe make it any "safer"???I mean if somone has a sawnoff under your hooter and is demanding the keys to the gunstore strong room,are you going to deny him the other keys to the restricted gunsafe???

So Canada has the same firearms available as us???Do tell! Where do you get an Armalite 180 or Ruger mini 14 at the moment,or a 50 Cal??
Or a BP weapon??
Please let me know ,because I will be at their door in the AM!!And that is a justifiable reason to IYO to dictate the building of range standards.
And if you checked the NRA,they would be only too happy to show the Irish govt standard safe range layouts.

Ok,fair enough you dont belive that this isnt going to be challenged under EU law.. As I said wait and see...:rolleyes:

rrpc

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

Yeah,clanger in the transportation of longarms.What do you do if you dont have a boot???But a stationwagon,or 4wd??Lotsa glass and all.Cover it over,or handcuff the trigger mech to a seat strut???More clarity please.

That's already been brought up. This area is still not completed.

So Canada has the same firearms available as us???Do tell! Where do you get an Armalite 180 or Ruger mini 14 at the moment,or a 50 Cal??
Or a BP weapon??
Please let me know ,because I will be at their door in the AM!!And that is a justifiable reason to IYO to dictate the building of range standards.

We don't use the 'w' word here. BP firearms are used and owned in this country. I was shown one only a few weeks ago, licensed as shotguns if smoothbore. I also said 'much the same' not 'exactly the same'. And, aren't Armalite's prohibited in Canada? certainly some 50 cals including the Barrett are.

But while we're asking questions, what's your beef with Canadian range criteria?

And if you checked the NRA,they would be only too happy to show the Irish govt standard safe range layouts.

I'm sure they would, but I've noticed that Governments like to talk to other Governments about such things and not private bodies.

Slug chucker

Hi All,
In my mind the idea of compensation should not be just be limited to dealers.

If for instance:
Someone has say for example a .45 pistol and the Gardai say no even though they have everything required under the law to possess it, proof of usage on a registered approved range, all the correct approved storage and they are of sound mind and body. They have appealed and lost their case.
The firearm was a real beauty and cost say €1,000 to €2000 mark, now if the dealers are going to have problems shifting a firearm like that what do you think it’s worth now!

Do you think this person should not be compensated for the massive loss they will incur?

If for instance:
A person has a Ruger 10/22 with a nice Butler Creek folding stock, not mega money at about €80-€100 for the stock but this is the way they bought the Ruger and don’t have the original factory stock. I can’t really see a reason the cops would grant a license for type of stock so the person will need to go and get another stock to suit, now they are out of pocket twice. Why shouldn’t the person get compensated for the folding stock?

I have for instance a Rem 870 with a Speedfeed stock on it, while it has a traditionally shaped stock it also incorporates a pistol grip, the stock is something similar to the Benelli M4’s stock in appearance. Cost me about €120 euro after shipping and duty charges. Is it worth having to go through the restricted process to maintain this stock, I don’t think so! So now can I sell it within Ireland , probably not. Is it legal to sell it on eBay, I’m not sure as it may be classed as a restricted item. Maybe you boys can answer this, is it legal to sell a part of a firearm that would not be constitute a part of the licensable firearms mechanism (Barrel, Action, Bolt,) if it’s classed as a restricted item when fitted to a firearm?

Anyway what’s the story on reloading, pretty much every country allows it within the EU, what’s the big issue, why are the DOJ so worried about it?
I do feel all components should only be allowed to be purchased by a licence firearms holder. The components parts are not as dangerous a people think, powder is not an explosive and has a fairly slow burn rate not much faster that matches. If anybody has occasion to destroy damaged ammunition they would know this. The process for reloading is well refined with many detailed books available to guide the would be reloader, how many books are available to shooters detailing safe field practice?
It’s just a case of RTFM and start on the minimum loads so I’ve been told.

I’m not too impressed on the current plan for three year licences as unless the fees are to be drastically reduced as it’s going to cost my household € 948 in one hit, yes I know it’s only what I’m paying now but € 316 is a bit easier to cough up in one go!
I think the UK have it cracked,
http://www.cambs.police.uk/information/firearms/fees.asp
£50 for one license that contains all your firearms and is valid for 5 years, how come they are able to do it for that price and our lads want 3X per individual cert, a bit of a rip off in my mind!
In the UK I would get 95 years of fees for the price of three in Ireland, before you say it I like living in Ireland

Cheers,
Slug Chucker

chem

Hi slugs.

Its the same old half a$$ed way of doing things here. If a job can be done half right sure isnt it good enough:rolleyes:

The holes in the firearms law are many. Reloading, "lookalike" assault rifles,Black powder shooting, Carbine`s, etc.................

One thing is for sure the government still want there cut and are charging us 3 times for the one job (how irish)

I understand that alot of work went into talks to get us what we have and I realy do mean it when I say thanks to all involved. But some of the laws passed are way out of sink with EU laws. This only causes frustration among shooters. If I want to do long range shooting or target I am completly under advantaged if I was to compete against people who can reload. So what do I do? Risk my sport by doing it underground or just give it my best and hope my factory made bullets do well?

Laws like this can sometimes create criminals instead of stopping them.

If you make it to hard to do it by the book and within the law, while it would be possiable to do it underground, what do most people do??

For an example. Here to have fireworks you must have an import licence, dangerous goods transport cert and a magazine. Then guidelines buy the DOJ say they can only be used by a professional in pyrothenics and in a site approved by the minister for the enviroment, health and safty.

Or do you get in your car, cross the boarder and buy them over the counter and set them off out your back for the kids?

Every halloween tells the tale:p

Bananaman

Some of the comments lead me to believe that people are planning to not renew their licenses based on the fact that the firearms they currently hold are now regarded as restricted firearms.

This then seems to lead them to believe that they will be unable to sell same due to the restricted status.

I don't think either of these are valid arguments.

If you currently hold a license for a firearm which has now been deemed restricted I do not see any problem with renewing your license. The only difference i can foresee is perhaps a little bit longer turnaround on the renewals this year as it will be the first year the new procedures have been used and as such they will take some bedding down.

The range of sports in Ireland which require, what are now restricted, firearms is growing. There has been massive investment by Ranges, Clubs and Competitors in both the promotion of those sports and in the training and preparation of competitors to compete at the highest level.

This would indicate to me that there is a market for people to trade up/down or out of their currently chosen sport.

The real difficulty I see with the compensation issue with regard to people trying to sell what has become a restricted firearm is the difficulty in proving that it is because it is now restricted and not because simply nobody wants it.

B'Man