Immigration Control Platform on Youtube

liberty 2007

liberty 2007 wrote: »

That's the worst possible example!!
I'v posted this before, but I'll say it again. There was a saying in Amarica, "the only good indian is a dead indian" The man who said it was General Sheirdan, Is perents immigrated to America to make a new life for themselves and the unfortunate natives never stood a chance. Now I'll ask the question again, give me an example where this kind of migration did not cause conflect?

Huh.That question is a misnomer.
You want to give the states back to the Indians,the australia's back to the aboriginee's? The mitchelstown caves back to the cavemen aswell while you're proposing your misnomer?
The last census did not state that 10% of the population here was foreign but even if it were,you're expecting riots?
Where are the riots ?
You seem to be expecting a complete reversal of societal modernity-As I said thats in need of a reality check.
Only 20 years ago,Irelands population was being bled dry with people in their thousands being economic migrants to Britain and the U.S-None of them rioted there,they worked hard.
Whats so different with the polish or the latvians ?
It's so ridiculous to suggest this apparent reversal in societal modernity that you imply is going to happen.Theres no modern European precedent and absolutely no indication for your concerns.
I put it to you that your Ireland for the Irish rant with added sensationalist baseless predictions is quaint and meaningless.

silverharp

liberty 2007 wrote: »

So, is it ok that we may suffer the same fate as the American indians?

your point is illogical, you cant compare western migration to US to inward migration to Ireland. to imply we are at risk of being wiped out is insane.

please lay out some reasonable concerns that can be discussed.

liberty 2007

silverharp wrote: »

your point is illogical, you cant compare western migration to US to inward migration to Ireland. to imply we are at risk of being wiped out is insane.

please lay out some reasonable concerns that can be discussed.

I never claimed that we would be wiped out, I simply stated the facts regarding the migtation to north Amarica as it was given a an example of no conflect migration. The one ingerident thats missing from the modern European sitution is time. Now can anyone give me an example from history...??

So you want us to prove your theory with an unproven for you?
misnomers aren't debate liberty 2007,they're an evasion tactic used by people devoid of any beef for their quaint theories.
In this case your quaint theory appears to be that some kind of imminent reversal of societal modernity is nigh.

I'd relax the kacks if thats worrying you.

djpbarry

liberty 2007 wrote: »

So, is it ok that we may suffer the same fate as the American indians?

You know, I think boards.ie show conduct a poll of the most ridiculous comments made by its users, because I reckon this one would feature near the top .

Talliesin

JohnWK wrote: »

If [X] is to continue into [Y] at its current unsustainable rate [Z].

Replaced the terms related to the issue, because they aren't actually relevant to the problem with this statement.

Of course if X continues into Y at its current unsustainable rate then bad things will happen.

The storage heater next to me is currently getting hotter. If this continues at its current unsustainable rate, then it will lead all of Dublin burning. Later all of Europe will burn and the smoke will kill people elsewhere. Oceans will boil and all life will end.

Luckily it's heating at an unsustainable rate; therefore even if I were never to turn it off it won't wipe out all humanity.

That's inherent in it's being unsustainable. Anyone who isn't hard of thinking can figure that out pretty immediately.

dRNk SAnTA

Wicknight wrote: »

So again, the biggest problem, in my view, with any debate on this topic is that the anti-immigration crowd always go to utterly ridiculous extremes in an attempt to scaremonger people into thinking immigration is going to cause the world to end. People just don't take that seriously anymore. We have had high levels of immigration into this country for the last 15 years, and the world hasn't ended. The idea that all these huge supposed problems is just around the corner just doesn't wash anymore.

If there was an actual serious problem with immigration no doubt you guys would be pointing that out. The very fact that you have to invent silly arguments , such as saying we will be a minority in the next few years, just leads to the conclusion that you guys don't actually know what the real problems immigration creates. So again no one takes you seriously.

I'm pro-immigration, but it would be very foolish of me to assume I know every problem that immigration can bring. After all part of being pro-immigration is making life for immigrants easier, which means addressing these problems.

I'm sure there are actual problems that movement of large groups of people brings. But its clear you guys aren't the ones to discuss that with, since you don't know what they are. I would love, just once, to have a proper discussion with someone on this forum who isn't a frothing at the mouth anti-immigration supporter who is droning on about how immigration will cause the end of Ireland as we know it, because such rhetoric is just nonsense.

This is a great post. The problem with most anti-immigration people is that they blame the problems that arise from immigration on the immigrants themselves. Its not a polish person's fault if we can't plan our country properly. I think everyone would like to see immigration policy which would make it as easy as possibly for our New-Irish to settle in.

gandalf

There are several problems that a large influx of immigrants has highlighted with Ireland.

Firstly we suck at infrastructure and planning. Alot of the problems being levelled at immigrants are actually because we seem to practice reactive planning from the government and local government level. When new estates go up schools should be built in parallel, leisure facilities should be organised, roads and public transport should be co-ordinated.

Blaming immigrants is lazy and is not addressing the problem on the way our tax monies are administered and how our services are delivered. If it wasn't for the famine then Ireland would be supporting a population of approx 40 million. At the moment we are only at approx 11% of that figure.

I have no issues with people coming here to work; if they do then they are paying taxes back into the economy. Some will stay here for a few years to make enough money to go back home and better their lives there. Others will stay and make a life of their own here in Ireland and I welcome those. There will be bad apples in the bunch but tbh they are few and far between (and there are plenty of bad apples in the native Irish population as well).

With regard to the separate issue of asylum seekers the system should be speeded up to process those applications as quickly as possible, allow those with legitimate claims to start their new lives and those who are "chancing their arm" to be sent on their way reducing the cost to the Irish taxpayer and stress on the applicant.

BTW I love this whole we will be in the minority bull and our Irishness will be diluted. We are a mongrel race, we are mixes of several different races from the Celts to the Normans to the British. Some of our native singing styles from the West coast are said to have Arabic influence. Its part of being Irish that we change, no race stands still it takes influences from the people that join it and come in contact with it. You should be more afraid of the influence of crap American Television shows than the Eastern Europeans and their superior work ethic.

djpbarry

Excellent post there gandalf. I'm particularly fond of:

gandalf wrote:

You should be more afraid of the influence of crap American Television shows than the Eastern Europeans and their superior work ethic.

silverharp

gandalf wrote: »

BTW I love this whole we will be in the minority bull and our Irishness will be diluted. We are a mongrel race, we are mixes of several different races from the Celts to the Normans to the British.

Repatriate anyone with Mc in their surname to Scotland, Anyone with Fitz to France and for good measure kick out everyone else who didn't have a relative in the GPO in 1916, then the thousand or so people left who can qualify as being real Irish can repopulate the country again.

liberty 2007

billy the squid wrote: »

We didn't consult the indians about invading the american continent either.

My responce regarding the fate of the native Americans was in responce to your flippent attitute towards them.

So far, I have'nt heard an example of where migration or multiculturlism works successfully. Perhaps The US is the best example. Despite the fact the natives were wiped out un the process, the people that are there now have a common bond, they are all immigrents. as long as the power is in the hands of predominantly white europeans It should remain stable.
But **** happins, things change, that's the nature of the world we live in.
Yogoslavia, a functioning multi etnic country for half a century. Then two things happened, Tito died and the USSR collapsed. The believe was that there would be a peaceful move to democracy. There was shock and horror accross Europe as no one could believe that such a thing could happen in modern Europe. So instead of looking at the real cause of the problem, the blame was pointed at one particular group even though all sides were equally as bad, the serbs had the most weapons.
I'l give more examples later as I dont have much time for this.

djpbarry

liberty 2007 wrote: »

Yogoslavia, a functioning multi etnic country for half a century. Then two things happened, Tito died and the USSR collapsed.

No, not really. Yugoslavia was created after WWI with the help of the allies (particularly the British) without the consultation of the inhabitants of the region. It was quite literally "thrown together" following the collapse of the Austro-Hungarian Empire in an attempt by Alexander Karađorđević to make territorial gains. This is totally irrelevant in the context of immigration in Ireland.

silverharp

liberty 2007 wrote: »

But **** happins, things change, that's the nature of the world we live in.
Yogoslavia, a functioning multi etnic country for half a century. Then two things happened, Tito died and the USSR collapsed. The believe was that there would be a peaceful move to democracy.

With respect you are using strawman arguments to back up point of view. I don’t have any numbers but I would guess that the vast majority of long term legal immigration to this country is white, coming from Christian (as much as that matters these days) based societies. I can’t in my wildest dreams imagine a scenario where this type of immigration would have a seriously detrimental affect on our society or economy. BTW I would say Switzerland is a fairly successful multicultural society however not that relevent to the Irish situation. I don't actually think Ireland has to become a multicultural country in any event, most immigrants will have assimilated within a genration and your perceived problem will have vanished.

purple'n'gold

Any people of white European decent that immigrate here (and of course stay here) wil be totally assimilated within a generation. That’s the way it has been throughout Europe for many hundreds of years. We all more or less look alike, language and local customs are usually the only difference. Religion now a days really doesn’t matter.

Zombrex

Maclommis wrote: »

And does that not tell you something?

It tells me that people seem perfectly free to talk about the issues around immigration and integration.

Maclommis wrote: »

Maybe people are talking about it because they think it's an important issue that will have a major impact on the future of this country.

Of that I have no doubt.

Maclommis wrote: »

Again, does that not tell you something.

Again it tells me that people seem perfectly happy and free to start a discussion on this issue.

Maclommis wrote: »

Is it possible that immigration might be a huge domestic issue that Irish people are concerned about?

Quite possible.

Maclommis wrote: »

It could be that it's a ridiculous argument or it could be that people like yourself just aren't able to respond to the argument with anything other than the same tired old platitudes.

No, its a ridiculous argument.

You can see that in the paradox of the argument itself.

The argument starts that our infrastructure cannot cope with the number of immigrants here at the moment. There are not enough houses, jobs, facilities, schools, etc etc for the current population.

Yet the next bit of the argument is about how 5 million more people are soon going to arrive if the rates continue and native Irish people will find themselves a minority in Ireland.

Can you see the problem with that?

What the hell are these 5 million people going to be doing if we don't have the jobs, schools, houses, facilities, for the current population, let alone double the current population?

The simple fact of the matter is that immigrants don't emigrate to countries that have little to offer them. If there are no jobs, no schools, no houses for immigrants they won't come here. That is why we didn't have thousands of people coming to live and work in Ireland in the mid-80s.

So the argument can't have it both ways, without just looking really stupid.

If we seriously should be worrying about 5 million immigrants coming to Ireland in the next 10 or 20 years, then why the hell should we be worrying about the strain on the infrastructure now, because if we can support 5 million immigrants we can sure as hell support 400,000 or 500,000 thousand.

If we are supposed to be worrying about the strain of 400,000 immigrants are putting on the infrastructure now, then why the hell should we be worrying about 5 million immigrants in the near future since we aren't supposed to be able to provide for the ones we have at the moment.

So, as I said, when people come out with this nonsense it is hard to take anything they say seriously.

Immigration causes problems when ever it happens. Theres are real problems. But I've yet to hear anyone in the anti-immigration crowd actually discuss these problems seriously on this website.

Instead we will get the nonsense above, ridiculous arguments about how pretty soon native Irish will be an minority, and quick the immigrants here now are destroying our infrastructure.

Maclommis wrote: »

I remember seeing another thread on another site where someone with the same user name as yourself was asked to answer some very simple and very reasonable questions on their views but that person seemed to run off without answering half of them. Maybe I'm wrong but it just seemed to me that you weren't able to answer them.

I wasn't able to answer them because my posts were constantly being deleted by the mods of that website and I was being banned.

Its kinda hard to reply when your replies are deleted.

So after a while I simple gave up and left.

Maclommis wrote: »

And if immigration is a ridiculous issue why aren't you ignoring it in this thread?

I have never claimed that immigration is a ridiculous issue.

Maclommis wrote: »

Real issues like crime and education and the health service and housing and the infastructure. Of course none of those things are any way related to or in any way impacted by immigration.

Well I would disagree with that assessment, I think all those areas, crime, educateion, health service and housing, are impacted by immigration. So I'm not quite sure where you are getting that from.

Maclommis wrote: »

Too many for a island of only 6 million people.

Perhaps you didn't understand the question. Too many to do what?

Saying "too many for an island of only 6 million people" is pointless, because I still don't know what you want to do and how this is stopped by having a certain level of immigrants.

Maclommis wrote: »

A million foreigners have settled in Britain over the last ten years. In Ireland we've had more than 400,000 people settle here. The population of Britain is around 60 million people. I'll let you do the maths.

No, please you do it, because again I have no idea what you want to do.

Maclommis wrote: »

You have got to be taking the urine. Ireland has never been anything like a multicultural country.

Yes, because there were no Celts here, Vikings here, no Normans, no British etc etc. Everyone is an original Hibernian. :rolleyes:

Maclommis wrote: »

It's true that one part of Ireland is more ethnically diverse than the rest but I'm not sure if many people would call it a successful example of multiculturalism.

Well you see that is the problem.

You, being strict anti-immigration (if you are who I think you are), define what is "successful multiculturalism" and you can simply define anything you don't like as being unsuccessful multiculturalism. So by definition nothing has ever been successful, because you don't want anything to be an example of successful multiculturalism.

So the discussion is rather pointless.

CerebralCortex

Very interesting thread, the only reason I would oppose immigration is because I don't think imho our government as far as social policy goes is up to scratch and as a result both immigrants and the Irish already here would suffer. I do think immigration is the way forward for Ireland.
There was an article yesterday in the Sunday business post by David McWilliams which matches up with my beliefs on the matter.
link

Zombrex

liberty 2007 wrote: »

So far, I have'nt heard an example of where migration or multiculturlism works successfully.

Well is there any point in answering?

The key word in your request is "successful" Who defines what is successful?

This request, or requests like yours, come up hundreds of times before on these threads and when ever example is given the person looking for the example simply points out a problem that such multiculturalism caused and uses that as an example why the multiculturalism was actually unsuccessful

So if you define successful multiculturalism as multicultural that has never caused problems you aren't going to get any examples.

But then I would challenge you to find anything in life that involves change that doesn't also raise problems.

So define what is successful multiculturalism and I will attempt to answer the question.

Hobbes

I didn't read any of the thread but wanted to say I am for Immigration Control on Youtube. Nearly every second video on youtube is some hard to understand foriegn stuff like this. I think they should have to learn to speak our language before they can go posting videos on youtube. Integrate not disentigrate!

I'd go to Dailymotion.com instead but its full of French people. *phhh*

Hobbes

Just after reading the OP. Funny thing about this doom and gloom prediction for the future is that people keep repeating it, even when it doesn't happen it gets moved further out.

Now that boards.ie search is back I can see similar posts from as back as 2002/2003. What is even funnier is that the reasons immigration is getting blamed for, were the same excuses as to why we shouldn't have immigration to begin with. eg. not enough schools, hospital beds.

It is a great way to prove yourself right though, just keep saying the future (not now) then when it eventually happens you can blame the immigrants, rather then the real underlying factors.

Gobán Saor

There are two main types of inward migration to Ireland - our fellow EU citizens exercising their right to move here and then the Asylum seeker phenomenon.

As regards the first, we had that debate in 1973 when we opted to join the (then) EEC, now the European Union. Free movement of people, goods, capital, all that sort of thing. Mind you, I imagine, if we thought about it at all, that we thought the free movement of people thing would be outward directed rather than inward directed. But no matter, we had the debate, voted (by a large majority) in the referendum and it is pretty foolish to now assert that we were never consulted. And by and large, inward EU migration has been a positive experience, and has contributed to the overall well being of Ireland, and, I would hope, the immigrants themselves. We are getting an influx of young, hardworking, taxpaying migrants (there's a house full of them next door to me) and I don't see the problem with that.

As for the second (and numerically smaller) category, it seems blindingly clear to me that the vast majority of asylum seekers are making blatantly bogus and unfounded claims and are grossly abusing a system that was put in place after the horrors of WW2 to protect refugees from political persecution and genocide. Not scam artists who claim they will be decapitated in a tribal ceremony back home if they are not allowed settle here forthwith.:rolleyes: Oh and bring their spouses, siblings, children, aunts and grannies too.:rolleyes: Unfortunately a very visible asylum seeker industry and lobby has sprung up and the legal arm of this is doing quite well, thank you, with ORAC hearings, appeals to the RAT, applications for leave to remain on humanitarian grounds and the inevitable judicial review after all else fails. I have argued before on previous threads that we can and should hugely tighten up this system but this DOES raise the hackles of the ultra PC brigade like not much else.

While I am firmly convinced that legal migration is a good idea, I think that the gross and blatant abuses by bogus asylum seekers (and their cheerleaders) is responsible for much if not all of the anti-immigration sentiment that undoubtedly exists.

Zombrex

Gobán Saor wrote: »

I think that the gross and blatant abuses by bogus asylum seekers (and their cheerleaders) is responsible for much if not all of the anti-immigration sentiment that undoubtedly exists.

Possibly, but I think if you asked someone on the street how many asylum seekers are granted asylum in Ireland each year you would get a wildly different answer than that of the actual figure. People generally don't seem to know what actually happens in the asylum process.

The perception of something like asylum seems to be quite different from the reality. For example I find it hard to have a conversation with any of my friends where they don't assume that any black person they see is an asylum seeker, or worse a Nigeria.

I know a load of black people working in Ireland who are not asylum seekers. And in fact I know 3 Nigerians who are working in Ireland and none of them are asylum seekers or have any connection to asylum seekers.

When I state that people look bewildered and ask "Well what are they doing here then?", as if it is perfectly grand that white Americans, white Europeans, and Asians would come work in Ireland, but why the hell would a black man or woman come here.

Hobbes

Asylum seeker argument has been done to death. If you did your research you would see the number of asylum seekers has dropped dramatically over the past 5 years.

Asylum seekers also has absolutly nothing to do with immigration. If it is responsible for much if not all of the anti-immigration sentiment then it just shows how much of an idiot your average joe on the street is.

JohnWK

Tristrame wrote: »

Could you give us a bullet point summary (with references to the problem you have with whatever) ?

Mass Immigration puts pressure on infrastructure;
Mass immigration means a sudden increase in the population. Immigrants take up space just like the rest of us. They need roads, schools, hospitals, houses etc.

Just look at the school for the blacks in Ballbriggan, that wasn't bad planning (I'm by no means defending this countries past record on planning btw!) or as some people suggested, racism, it was a sudden influx of Africans upon the town. To quote Kevin Myers "The problem isn't racism, it's the tidal wave of immigrants" Tidal wave being the key words!!!

Suggestions here that Ireland has been a multicultural society for thousands of years are laughable, We have never before experienced a massive influx of people on todays scale ever before, with of course the exception of the Plantations of Ulster, a wonderful example of tolerance and multiculturalism in action perhaps?!

Mass Immigration has brought along with it crime.
Why do we have to accommodate the rest of Europe's criminals. One conviction and they should be deported in my opinion.

Also with Romania / Bulgaria in the EU we have seen swarms of Romany Gypsy's to our shores. There are supposed to be restrictions on citizens of these countries so how are they getting in? Yes they are entitled to "visit" Ireland on "holiday" but they are supposed to be able to prove that they can support themselves while here.

They all end up begging on our main streets. A sight which is disgusting if you ask me, very bad for tourism in my opinion. Why are they not deported?

djpbarry

JohnWK wrote:

Mass Immigration puts pressure on infrastructure;
Mass immigration means a sudden increase in the population. Immigrants take up space just like the rest of us. They need roads, schools, hospitals, houses etc.

Of course a population increase has to be taken into consideration, but the shortcomings in Irish infrastructure existed long before this "mass immigration" and these shortcomings have arisen from poor planning.

JohnWK wrote:

Just look at the school for the blacks in Ballbriggan, that wasn't bad planning (I'm by no means defending this countries past record on planning btw!) or as some people suggested, racism, it was a sudden influx of Africans upon the town.

Of course it was bad planning. If the council approves the construction of a load of houses in a particular area (such as Balbriggan) without extra provision for school places, then eventually there will come a point when there is a shortage of school places. It doesn't make any difference where the people who move into those new houses come from; whether it's Leitrim or The Congo, it makes no difference.

Besides, how do you know when they arrived? How do you know the kids were not born here?

JohnWK wrote:

Suggestions here that Ireland has been a multicultural society for thousands of years are laughable

If you say so, but perhaps you should have a look at your own DNA .

JohnWK wrote:

Mass Immigration has brought along with it crime.
Why do we have to accommodate the rest of Europe's criminals.

Yeah, we never had crime in this country before all these immigrants arrived :rolleyes:.

JohnWK wrote:

Also with Romania / Bulgaria in the EU we have seen swarms of Romany Gypsy's to our shores. There are supposed to be restrictions on citizens of these countries so how are they getting in?

Swarms? Really? You've counted them all, have you?

They're "getting in" because they're EU citizens. There are only about 8,000 Romanians in Ireland and even fewer Bulgarians.

JohnWK wrote:

They all end up begging on our main streets.

Are you seriously saying that every Romanian and Bulgarian citizen that comes to Ireland ends up begging on our streets?

I must say, that's a pretty poor set of bullet points - you haven't produced one single fact.

JohnWK

JohnWK wrote: »

Mass Immigration puts pressure on infrastructure;
Mass immigration means a sudden increase in the population. Immigrants take up space just like the rest of us. They need roads, schools, hospitals, houses etc.

Can you quantify this pressure vis a vis the increase in economic activity as a result of the inflow ? Would you prefer the lesser economic activity?

Just look at the school for the blacks in Ballbriggan, that wasn't bad planning (I'm by no means defending this countries past record on planning btw!) or as some people suggested, racism, it was a sudden influx of Africans upon the town. To quote Kevin Myers "The problem isn't racism, it's the tidal wave of immigrants" Tidal wave being the key words!!!

How many of the circa 400k you are talking about are black? What has colour got to do with it?

Suggestions here that Ireland has been a multicultural society for thousands of years are laughable,

Why? It's the truth,we are a blend of all sorts from various different mass invasions through history.Perhaps you need to trace your own lineage back a few hundred years and see how pure Irish it is...
But then you don't need to do you as you state thats not the problem.The problem is infrastructure right?
There was aguy on the tv this evening who stated that all contraception was inherently evil, so perhaps you should head over to the humanities forum and start a thread there advocating contraception for anyone with a trace of non Irish in their lineage.

We have never before experienced a massive influx of people on todays scale ever before, with of course the exception of the Plantations of Ulster, a wonderful example of tolerance and multiculturalism in action perhaps?!

So blooming what?
My local Dunnes can't get staff at the moment,there isn't enough of them.

Mass Immigration has brought along with it crime.
Why do we have to accommodate the rest of Europe's criminals. One conviction and they should be deported in my opinion.

The only comment worth making there is LoL.

Also with Romania / Bulgaria in the EU we have seen swarms of Romany Gypsy's to our shores. There are supposed to be restrictions on citizens of these countries so how are they getting in? Yes they are entitled to "visit" Ireland on "holiday" but they are supposed to be able to prove that they can support themselves while here.

Plenty of them getting deported.They can't even register with Fás,never mind apply for the dole-so I don't know why you are mentioning them as a problem-EXCEPT of course if your real problem is you don't like the look of them.

They all end up begging on our main streets. A sight which is disgusting if you ask me, very bad for tourism in my opinion. Why are they not deported?

Some of them are, and some aren't.Perhaps the bulk of people in this country are more kind hearted than you in relation to them.
If you have a problem with that,then tough.

JohnWK

djpbarry wrote: »

Of course a population increase has to be taken into consideration, but the shortcomings in Irish infrastructure existed long before this "mass immigration" and these shortcomings have arisen from poor planning.
Of course it was bad planning. If the council approves the construction of a load of houses in a particular area (such as Balbriggan) without extra provision for school places, then eventually there will come a point when there is a shortage of school places. It doesn't make any difference where the people who move into those new houses come from; whether it's Leitrim or The Congo, it makes no difference.

If the government doesn't even know how many foreigners are in the country how can they build schools for them? Maybe these immigrants should have filled in their census forms.
There has always been a problem with lack of school places in this country. If we have'nt been able to sort the infrastructural problems out for our own people how are we expected to plan schools for an unknown number of immigrants.

djpbarry wrote: »

Besides, how do you know when they arrived? How do you know the kids were not born here?

I don't know. Neither toes the CSO judging from the census.

djpbarry wrote: »

Yeah, we never had crime in this country before all these immigrants arrived :rolleyes:.

We did have crime before immigration actually. It's just now we are expected to tolerate the criminals of foreign countries.

djpbarry wrote: »

Swarms? Really? You've counted them all, have you?

I have eyes. I can see a visible increase in the numbers of Romany beggars on the streets.

djpbarry wrote: »

They're "getting in" because they're EU citizens. There are only about 8,000 Romanians in Ireland and even fewer Bulgarians.

I'm repeating myself now, they are entitled to visit but must prove they can support themselves while here.
http://www.inis.gov.ie/en/INIS/Pages/WP07000151

djpbarry wrote: »

Are you seriously saying that every Romanian and Bulgarian citizen that comes to Ireland ends up begging on our streets?

No, you just said that.
If you read my post I said every Romany Gypsy ends up begging on the streets.

liberty 2007

djpbarry wrote: »

No, not really. Yugoslavia was created after WWI with the help of the allies (particularly the British) without the consultation of the inhabitants of the region. It was quite literally "thrown together" following the collapse of the Austro-Hungarian Empire in an attempt by Alexander Karađorđević to make territorial gains. This is totally irrelevant in the context of immigration in Ireland.

You're deliberitly missing the point. It's about whether or not a multicultural/ethnic can fuction properly Yogoslavia did for 50 years, but in the end it failed with catastrophic consequences for the people, but if someone predicted this ten years earlier, they'd have been dismissed as a nut!

There are many more examples
Sri-Lanka, during British rule, hindu Tamils from India migrated. When the British left ethnic conflect erupted between the natives and the Tamils which is still smoldering today.
Palestine.
After WW2 large numbers of Jewish refugees flocked to Palestine, the native people had no ability to stop this as they had no control of their own lands (under British control). When the british left and in the conflect that followed, the palestinian people lost 90% of their lands and suffered untold casuaties.

1938 Hitler used the excuse of defending the interests of etnic Germans living in parts of Chechoslovakia to take those lands. After the war any remaining Germans were expelled.
Northern Ireland, etnic conflect caused by one section of the community's mistrust of the other.
Britains intervention and Imperial take over of India was ultimatly unsucessful because they did'nt have the numbers to overwhelm them.Not so in Australia/New Zealand where their relatively small populations left them vunerable to the migrants the British sent to colonize the lands.

The Roman Empire.
A multi-ethnic Empire for centuries, although ethnicly diverse, the people were Romanised effectively by force and over a long time.
In the latter half of the 4th century AD the Romans allowed a large population of refugees cross it's north eastern border. These people were known as the Goths. Thwy had been driven from there lands by the Huns. The Romans allowed them in probably for economic reasons. The Goths never intergrated into the roman system.
30 years later, the next generation of Goths went on the rampage sacking city after city and in the year 410AD for the first time in 800 years rome was sacked by the goths. It marked the end of the greatest Empire the world has ever known. Rome did'nt quite collapse that day, but its economic and military power was gone. The dark ages followed a century later.

liberty 2007

liberty 2007 wrote: »

You're deliberitly missing the point. It's about whether or not a multicultural/ethnic can fuction properly Yogoslavia did for 50 years, but in the end it failed with catastrophic consequences for the people, but if someone predicted this ten years earlier, they'd have been dismissed as a nut!

There are many more examples
Sri-Lanka, during British rule, hindu Tamils from India migrated. When the British left ethnic conflect erupted between the natives and the Tamils which is still smoldering today.
Palestine.
After WW2 large numbers of Jewish refugees flocked to Palestine, the native people had no ability to stop this as they had no control of their own lands (under British control). When the british left and in the conflect that followed, the palestinian people lost 90% of their lands and suffered untold casuaties.

1938 Hitler used the excuse of defending the interests of etnic Germans living in parts of Chechoslovakia to take those lands. After the war any remaining Germans were expelled.
Northern Ireland, etnic conflect caused by one section of the community's mistrust of the other.
Britains intervention and Imperial take over of India was ultimatly unsucessful because they did'nt have the numbers to overwhelm them.Not so in Australia/New Zealand where their relatively small populations left them vunerable to the migrants the British sent to colonize the lands.

The Roman Empire.
A multi-ethnic Empire for centuries, although ethnicly diverse, the people were Romanised effectively by force and over a long time.
In the latter half of the 4th century AD the Romans allowed a large population of refugees cross it's north eastern border. These people were known as the Goths. Thwy had been driven from there lands by the Huns. The Romans allowed them in probably for economic reasons. The Goths never intergrated into the roman system.
30 years later, the next generation of Goths went on the rampage sacking city after city and in the year 410AD for the first time in 800 years rome was sacked by the goths. It marked the end of the greatest Empire the world has ever known. Rome did'nt quite collapse that day, but its economic and military power was gone. The dark ages followed a century later.

How is any of that in any way relevant to modern day economic migration within the E.U or anywhere for that matter?

JohnWK

Tristrame wrote: »

Can you quantify this pressure vis a vis the increase in economic activity as a result of the inflow ? Would you prefer the lesser economic activity?

economic growth fuelled by mass immigration does not necessarily improve the individual's economic situation. Immigrants tend to work minimum wage jobs at the lower end of the scale. What they contribute to the economy is very little when weighed up against the infrastructural pressures they but on the country. (Schools, hospitals etc)

Tristrame wrote: »

How many of the circa 400k you are talking about are black? What has colour got to do with it?

Its an immigration issue not a racial issue. Would it matter if it was an all Polish school?

Tristrame wrote: »

Why? It's the truth,we are a blend of all sorts from various different mass invasions through history.Perhaps you need to trace your own lineage back a few hundred years and see how pure Irish it is...

I have traced my lineage. There is a very small Norse and Saxon influence in my genetic makeup, as indeed there is in the majority of Irish people.

The only time we experienced a mass movement of people into this country the end result was not a multicultural utopia, rather years of ethnic conflict and partition.

Norse and Anglo-Norman invasions where small and easily absorbed into the population.

Tristrame wrote: »

My local Dunnes can't get staff at the moment,there isn't enough of them.

I'm not having an easy time getting work in my locality. The Polish seem to get the jobs which I apply for.

Tristrame wrote: »

The only comment worth making there is LoL.
Plenty of them getting deported.They can't even register with Fás,never mind apply for the dole-so I don't know why you are mentioning them as a problem-EXCEPT of course if your real problem is you don't like the look of them.
Some of them are, and some aren't.Perhaps the bulk of people in this country are more kind hearted than you in relation to them.
If you have a problem with that,then tough.

If you are referring to the M50 Gypsys, they were only deported after it was made clear that the Irish people had no sympathy with their cause.

I don't hate Gypsys because they are Gypsys. I don't condone anyone who expresses hatred toward somebody because of their ethnicity.

My problem is with their actions. I hate their aggressive style of begging. They are a public nuisance.

JohnWK

JohnWK wrote: »

economic growth fuelled by mass immigration does not necessarily improve the individual's economic situation. Immigrants tend to work minimum wage jobs at the lower end of the scale. What they contribute to the economy is very little when weighed up against the infrastructural pressures they but on the country. (Schools, hospitals etc)

Is that your opinion or fact?
If it's fact,I expect to see data,statistics reports and a myriad of material to back that statement up.
If it's merely your opinion,then state it as so-because posting opinion as fact is prohibited here (see the charter).
If it's merely your opinion,please state how qualified you are to make your opinion any more valid than the next persons.

Its an immigration issue not a racial issue. Would it matter if it was an all Polish school?

I am aware that certain nationalities do provide schooling requirements in certain cases.Most of it is provided by the state reasonably adequately-at least I'm not aware of any long queues or widespread year long waits for access to schools.

I have traced my lineage. There is a very small Norse and Saxon influence in my genetic makeup, as indeed there is in the majority of Irish people.

But but but they were foreigners who came here...

The only time we experienced a mass movement of people into this country the end result was not a multicultural utopia, rather years of ethnic conflict and partition.

Norse and Anglo-Norman invasions where small and easily absorbed into the population.

Will you be inviting the irish americans back? That might solve the probelm for you etninicity wise? Theres what 25 million of them,so we could easily absorp the 5 million more foreigners you expect then-when are they coming by the way? We'd want to be getting the prospectus out to get the "americans" back soon.

I'm not having an easy time getting work in my locality. The Polish seem to get the jobs which I apply for.

You are applying for the minimum wage jobs you say they mostly take? Try Dunnes,they are recruiting and finding it hard to get staff.

If you are referring to the M50 Gypsys, they were only deported after it was made clear that the Irish people had no sympathy with their cause.

They were also a once off,theres not too many Gypsies at roundabouts since.

I don't hate Gypsys because they are Gypsys. I don't condone anyone who expresses hatred toward somebody because of their ethnicity.
My problem is with their actions. I hate their aggressive style of begging. They are a public nuisance.

Thats not the Vibe I'm getting from you seriously.
Have you a problem too with Irish travelers?