'Fascism will come to America, but likely under another name, perhaps anti-fascism.'

jessop1

Interesting article posted on rense.com.. rings true in my opinion...

The Anti-Fascism Wolf In Sheep's Clothing
By Curt Maynard, 10-11-7

I'll be darned if Sean Penn didn't say something the other night on CNN's Larry King Live that made a great deal of sense. As a rule Mr. Penn and I don't see eye to eye on many things, but I couldn't help but be pleasantly surprised to see Penn, the son of a Jewish father and Irish Catholic mother catch Larry King momentarily off guard when he quoted the old Kingfish Huey Long. Penn said, "Well, in 1932 Huey Long said something very interesting. It was, 'Fascism will come to America, but likely under another name, perhaps anti-fascism.'" The look on King's face was priceless, for a moment he was speechless, he finally managed a few words just before going to a commercial break, "We'll dwell on that for a minute," he said with a perplexed look on his face.

more here...
http://www.rense.com/general78/anbif.htm

discuss...

Gordon

jessop1 wrote: »

discuss...

What's the conspiracy?

jessop1

Gordon wrote: »

What's the conspiracy?

I'd have thought that the thread title and the article itself (did you read it??) more than adequately explain what the conspiracy is.... but I'll spell it out......

the conspiracy is that the anti-fascism movement in america and europe is actually fascism in disguise.

billy the squid

There is many a nazi that will tell you that those against fascism are indeed fascists themselves.

In my own run in with facists/white supremacists/racists and general idiots of that nature, one tends to be accused of being a fascist because they stifle free speech blah blah blah.

This is the only thing that anti-fascism has in comon with fascism. anti fascism in my opinion wants to bury fascism and prevent the human race from ever revisiting it as it is a vile disgusting philosophy.

The anti fascist movement could and should not be mistaken for fascism. that rense.com article is nothing more than badmouthing a philosophy which the site owner probably disagrees with.

jessop1

billy the squid wrote: »

There is many a nazi that will tell you that those against fascism are indeed fascists themselves.

In my own run in with facists/white supremacists/racists and general idiots of that nature, one tends to be accused of being a fascist because they stifle free speech blah blah blah.

This is the only thing that anti-fascism has in comon with fascism. anti fascism in my opinion wants to bury fascism and prevent the human race from ever revisiting it as it is a vile disgusting philosophy.

The anti fascist movement could and should not be mistaken for fascism. that rense.com article is nothing more than badmouthing a philosophy which the site owner probably disagrees with.

The stifling of free speech is itself fascist.

To bring nazis, white supremecists and racists and the rest of these lunatics etc into this discussion is a diversion from the topic. The article is talking about the very real state fascism that has been and continues to manifest itself across westernised society.

That you would bring these crazies into the argument is indicative of the atmosphere and environment that the anti-fascist (fascist) movement has created...ie that if you question the anti-fascists (fascists) you are implied to be aligned with very evil ideologies.

Not saying that you yourself are implying this (perhaps you are but I'll reserve judgement) - but I think your thinking on this matter is at least somewhat influenced by this atmosphere I've mentioned.

Question for you - does ernst zundel deserve to be in jail?

billy the squid

Excuse me but were the nazis not fascists. It is the hope of anti fascists to prevent a repeat of the rise to power of a lunatic such as hitler, who was a fascist, and an organisation such as the National Socialist party (nazi)

That you would bring these crazies into the argument is indicative of the atmosphere and environment that the anti-fascist (fascist) movement has created...ie that if you question the anti-fascists (fascists) you are implied to be aligned with very evil ideologies.

This is not necessarily true. In the last week the credibility of the nazi hunting simon Wiesenthal center, (A group who would proudly pin the anti fascist badge on themselves) was questioned in relation to their false allegations against the Hunt Museum here in Limerick.

Does questioning the Simon Wiesenthal foundation make me a fascist? No, Questioning them with regard to their claims does not make me look like a fascist as per your claim in the above quote.

With regard to Ernst Zundel, If he is unwilling to observe the laws of whatever country he is in, then yes, he does deserve to be in jail.

I would put him in the same category as any disident republican here, if he is guilty of incitement to hatred, then he should be locked up.

jessop1

i referred to nazis (as an organised group) in the same context as you - ie the context of today - they are a fringe/ underworld grouping as are the whte supremecists you also mentioned as part of your original argument... Dont know why you would bring the ww2 nazis into the conversation..?

Yeah the anti-fascists will protect us from the rise of a new hiltler by appointing a new hitler to protect us from the new hitler. Of course it is far more covert and subtle this time round - under the guise of "anti-fascism"..other guises include "the war on terrorism"... or "the protection of freedom"... and many other lies.

The anti-fascists in america have many other "hopes" of course... one example - world hegemony... see pnac for details..... you'll find quite a few "anti-fascists" involved in that....

re: zundel...you're argument assumes "the laws of whatever country he's in" are always fair and are always applied fairly...

direct question... - does he deserve to be in jail for questioning the details of the holocaust...?

Mahatma coat

Shush yoiu about the Holocaust, you may question the amount of Poles or Gays or german dissidents that were killed, but you may not hawever question the details postulated by other groups regarding how terrible it was and that they were the only ones who truly suffered, you are specificly prohibited from questioning their numbers on the situation.

failure to comply may result in a meeting with the 'Anti Defamation League'



Anyway I'd Agree with the OP here, after the war Russia got the rocket scientists, America got the Propaganda machine.

bonkey

jessop1 wrote: »

The stifling of free speech is itself fascist.

Fascists supported the stifling of free speech. Its not quite the same thing.

I could say, for example, that breathing is fascist. It is, after all, an activity that every fascist supported and engaged in.

Just like the stifling of free speech, however, it is not an activity unique to fascism.

Question for you - does ernst zundel deserve to be in jail?

On one hand, he broke the law. For breaking the law, he "deserves" to be in jail.
On the other hand, the law is of questionable quality. If its a bad law, then no-one guilty of it "deserves" the legally-imposed punishment.

So the question shouldn't be whether or not Zundel deserves to be in jail, but whether or not the law which led to his jailing is, on balance, reasonable.

Capt'n Midnight

'Capitalism is the exploitation of man by man. Communism is the exact opposite'

The NAZI's were socialist , so are the 'RA

It doesn't matter what philosophy you claim to follow, once you gain power you can do whatever you want. At present in the US only citizens have full rights, but the president can remove citizenship. Congress didn't stop Regan illegally ( under US law ) invading Greneda.

jessop1

bonkey wrote: »

Fascists supported the stifling of free speech. Its not quite the same thing.

I could say, for example, that breathing is fascist. It is, after all, an activity that every fascist supported and engaged in.

Just like the stifling of free speech, however, it is not an activity unique to fascism.

Jaybus...em nit pickin a bit there bonkey ... I would think of the stifling of free speech as being one of the hallmarks of fascism......but er, breathing... ?

bonkey wrote: »

So the question shouldn't be whether or not Zundel deserves to be in jail, but whether or not the law which led to his jailing is, on balance, reasonable.

fair enough... so is that law reasonable in your opinion? and has it been applied reasonably?

billy the squid

aybus...em nit pickin a bit there bonkey ... I would think of the stifling of free speech as being one of the hallmarks of fascism......but er, breathing... ?

Actually it is not a "hallmark" of fashism. an absoloute hate of communism would be a hallmark of fashism. the stifling of free speech would be the end result of any dictatorship, be it fashism or communism.

The law which has Ernst Zundell in jail was put in place to prevent the rise of another meglomaniac. The German country was pretty much behind both world wars, which they came second in the first world war, and came third in the second world war (behind japan) so that is why you have laws like that in some countries, to prevent hateful nutters from causing trouble.

Zundell knew the law of the land before he started spreading his anti-semetic bile so it is his own fault for being locked up.

bonkey

jessop1 wrote: »

Jaybus...em nit pickin a bit there bonkey ... I would think of the stifling of free speech as being one of the hallmarks of fascism......but er, breathing... ?

Show me a living fascist who doesn't breathe.
Show me a dead fascist who didn't breathe.



As Billy Has just pointed out, the suppression of free speech is not a factor unique to fascism. Sure, its something you expect to see in a fascist state, but that makes its existence a prerequisite rather than an indicator.

To take a slightly different perspective, one could say that the existence of state-run programmes is a pre-requisite for communism. Ireland has state-run programmes, such as our schooling and national pension scheme. Does this mean Ireland is communist? Does it mean Ireland is becoming communist, or is trying to become communist? Or does it merely mean that Ireland has some traits that we would also expect to see in a communist state?

fair enough... so is that law reasonable in your opinion? and has it been applied reasonably?

Dealing with those questions in reverse....

I believe it was applied reasonably, yes.

Do I find it a reasonable law, though? I'm not entirely decided. I understand much of the reasoning for the law existing, but I'm not entirely in agreement with that reasoning.

I would, as a counter-point, look at international reaction to right-wing shifts in European politics. Look at the reaction to the election of Haider in Austria some years ago. Look at the reaction to the right-wing shifts in Switzerland (a recent NYT cartoon showed a depiction of the Swiss flag being extended into a swastika). This is the knee-jerk response the Western world has to right-wing influences, particularly in certain areas of Europe. Is it so surprising that in those areas, the laws also reflect a certain reaction to our history of 60-odd years ago?

jessop1

bonkey wrote: »

As Billy Has just pointed out, the suppression of free speech is not a factor unique to fascism. Sure, its something you expect to see in a fascist state, but that makes its existence a prerequisite rather than an indicator.

both i'd say.

bonkey wrote: »

To take a slightly different perspective, one could say that the existence of state-run programmes is a pre-requisite for communism....

in fairness this is a bit like the breathing analogy... taking something very broadly generic and applying it as an example of shared traits... most states have state run programmes of some sort..

bonkey wrote: »

Or does it merely mean that Ireland has some traits that we would also expect to see in a communist state?

aye, as per above.

bonkey wrote: »

Dealing with those questions in reverse....

I believe it was applied reasonably, yes.

Do I find it a reasonable law, though? I'm not entirely decided. I understand much of the reasoning for the law existing, but I'm not entirely in agreement with that reasoning

..just looking at some the the things that happened around the german trial ...defense lawyers suppressed and hampered, venomous bile from the presiding judge...statements like ""[y]ou might as well argue that the sun rises in the west... But you cannot change that the Holocaust has been proven." by the prosecutor.. (when there are many many details of the holocaust that are not proven).... I find the whole thing very disturbing indeed...

bonkey wrote: »

I would, as a counter-point, look at international reaction to right-wing shifts in European politics. Look at the reaction to the election of Haider in Austria some years ago. Look at the reaction to the right-wing shifts in Switzerland (a recent NYT cartoon showed a depiction of the Swiss flag being extended into a swastika). This is the knee-jerk response the Western world has to right-wing influences, particularly in certain areas of Europe. Is it so surprising that in those areas, the laws also reflect a certain reaction to our history of 60-odd years ago?

theres one major factor (the most important one in fact) being omitted in this whole thing and thats the power and influence of the global banking cartel, without which it would not be possible to have a fascist movement or a reaction to it - ie an "anti-fascist" (fascism re-packaged) movement..

bonkey

jessop1 wrote: »

in fairness this is a bit like the breathing analogy... taking something very broadly generic and applying it as an example of shared traits... most states have state run programmes of some sort..

Show me one state that has no limits on freedom of speech and I'll concede the point.

..just looking at some the the things that happened around the german trial ...defense lawyers suppressed and hampered, venomous bile from the presiding judge...statements like ""[y]ou might as well argue that the sun rises in the west... But you cannot change that the Holocaust has been proven." by the prosecutor.. (when there are many many details of the holocaust that are not proven).... I find the whole thing very disturbing indeed...

Arguing that the Holocaust has been proven is different from arguing that every single detail about the Holocaust has been proven.

There's a lot we don't know about gravity, for example. Arguing that it doesn't exist, however, would be like arguing that the sun rises in the west.

theres one major factor (the most important one in fact) being omitted in this whole thing and thats the power and influence of the global banking cartel, without which it would not be possible to have a fascist movement or a reaction to it - ie an "anti-fascist" (fascism re-packaged) movement..

Are you using "global banking cartel" as a euphemism for Jews (or some subset thereof), or do you mean an actual cartel of banks?

In the latter case, I don't understand the argument at all and would hope you could explain it to me.
In the former case, I'm not interested in discussing it.

jessop1

bonkey wrote: »

Arguing that the Holocaust has been proven is different from arguing that every single detail about the Holocaust has been proven.

tell that to the ones who threw zundel in the slammer then.

bonkey wrote: »

Are you using "global banking cartel" as a euphemism for Jews (or some subset thereof), or do you mean an actual cartel of banks?

In the latter case, I don't understand the argument at all and would hope you could explain it to me.
In the former case, I'm not interested in discussing it.

excuse me but how does what I said relate to race religion or creed??

your response is more evidence of this atmosphere has been created by the fascist (sorry anti-fascist) movement...its easy to see how the fascists locked up zundel for questioning details of the holocaust when all I have to do is mention "global banking cartel" and the ugly suggestion of anti-semitism is fielded..

Mahatma coat

tis interestin there Bonkey you're the one who made the connection between the Jews and the International Banking cartel, they're not all Jews ya know. however there is a historical precedent on this one, the church banned Usury between Christians for Centuries, meaning that the Jews were the only game in town if ya wanted to finance a small war, oppress yer population, build an armada and sail to the 'New World' etc... here have a look at this its a list of governors of the Federal Reserve

wiki wrote:

Charles S. Hamlin (August 10, 1914 – August 10, 1916) William P. G. Harding (August 10, 1916 – August 9, 1922) Daniel R. Crissinger (May 1, 1923 – September 15, 1927) Roy A. Young (October 4, 1927 – August 31, 1930) Eugene Meyer (September 16, 1930 – May 10, 1933) Eugene R. Black (May 19, 1933 – August 15, 1934) Marriner S. Eccles¹ (November 15, 1934 – February 3, 1948) Thomas B. McCabe (April 15, 1948 – April 2, 1951) William McChesney Martin, Jr. (April 2, 1951 – February 1, 1970) Arthur F. Burns (February 1, 1970 – January 31, 1978) G. William Miller (March 8, 1978 – August 6, 1979) Paul A. Volcker (August 6, 1979 – August 11, 1987) Alan Greenspan² (August 11, 1987 – January 31, 2006) Ben Bernanke (February 1, 2006 – ) ¹ Served as Chairman Pro Tempore from February 3, 1948, to April 15, 1948. ² Served as Chairman Pro Tempore from March 3, 1996, to June 20, 1996

See Quite a few WASPS in there too. Religion as we know it means nothing to these people,crying Antisemitisim is a useful tool to silence dissidents. useful t

oscarBravo

jessop1 wrote: »

excuse me but how does what I said relate to race religion or creed??

your response is more evidence of this atmosphere has been created by the fascist (sorry anti-fascist) movement...its easy to see how the fascists locked up zundel for questioning details of the holocaust when all I have to do is mention "global banking cartel" and the ugly suggestion of anti-semitism is fielded..

Amid all the bluster and outrage, you singularly failed to answer the question.

Since you're not talking about race, religion or creed, exactly what do you mean by "global banking cartel"?

bonkey

jessop1 wrote: »

tell that to the ones who threw zundel in the slammer then.

Why? Did they maintain that there is no questions about any details of the Holocaust?

excuse me but how does what I said relate to race religion or creed??

I asked if it was, and explained that if it was not then I couldn't understand the logic of your argument.

The reason I asked is because of the origins of that type of term, which is succinctly summarised here.

your response is more evidence of this atmosphere has been created by the fascist (sorry anti-fascist) movement...its easy to see how the fascists locked up zundel for questioning details of the holocaust when all I have to do is mention "global banking cartel" and the ugly suggestion of anti-semitism is fielded..

Let me repeat that I asked a question. I included both possibilities - that you may or may not have been using the term in the manner which its origins clearly slanted towards. I explained that if it was in that direction, I had no interest in discussing it with you, but if it was not then I would appreciate you explaining your logic because I couldn't see it.

If anything, I've given you a clear opportunity to explain that you are not using the term in the manner its apparent etymology would suggest, and to explain the logic behind your argument - both so we could discuss the point and so that no interested reader would run the risk of misunderstanding your position.

You insist that its not meant in this manner, and I'm more than happy to accept that. It does leave us with the other half of my comment though - the half you didn't respond to - which is that I don't understand your logic as to how some international cartel of banks is somehow behind what you see as some new incarnation of fascism.

As I said before...I hope you'd explain your logic to me.

bonkey

Mahatma coat wrote: »

tis interestin there Bonkey you're the one who made the connection between the Jews and the International Banking cartel,

I'm the one who drew reference to the reality that the origins of the term are anti-Semitic in nature. Thats slightly different to me "making the connection".

they're not all Jews ya know.

I never said "they" were. Rather, I want to know who "they" are meant to be in this particular case, as there are any number of interpretations as to who constitutes "they".

here have a look at this its a list of governors of the Federal Reserve

So "they" are the Federal Reserve? Or the governors thereof? Or the governors of the Federal Reserve are some subset of "they"???

crying Antisemitisim is a useful tool to silence dissidents.

I haven't cried anything. I asked a question based on a reasonable understanding of the etymology of the term used. Apparently this ahs been misunderstood by two seperate people, so let me put it a bit more bluntly

If the term is being used in an antiSemitic sense, then yes, I am most certainly trying to end this discussion here and now.

If the term is not being used in an anti-Semitic sense, then I'd be very interested in seeing freedom of speech exercised in order to expand on and clarify the argument presented.

If you see that as me trying to "silence dissidents", I'd be interested in hearing the logic behind that also.

Jocksereire

Well some the guys i think Jessop is talking of are the Rothchilds in europe the Rockerfellers (sp?) Dulles (rockerfellers in-laws), and Warburgs in America, their families and banking associates. The CFR also whos chairman(Honorary Chairman) is David Rockerfeller and bilderberg group. Im sure there are others but thats a start. The NWO "crew" basically. Some of their quotes can be read in the NWO thread. Does this answer the "who are they" question?

Baron M.A. Rothschild wrote, "Give me control over a nation's currency and I care not who makes its laws."


Georgetown professor Dr. Carroll Quigley (Bill Clinton's mentor while at Georgetown) wrote about the goals of the investment bankers who control central banks: "... nothing less than to create a world system of financial control in private hands able to dominate the political system of each country and the economy of the world as a whole... controlled in a feudalist fashion by the central banks of the world acting in concert, by secret agreements arrived at in frequent private meetings and conferences

bonkey

Jocksereire wrote: »

Does this answer the "who are they" question?

If thats accurate (i.e. if they mean who you think they mean), then yes, it answers the question....which leads only to my request for an explanation as to how these people and their cartel were necessary for both fascist and anti-fascist movements.

Jocksereire

hmmm not sure but again it reminds me of a documentary i saw where people were asked on the street would they give up their liberties for their freedom and they were all saying yes without really realising what they were being asked.
i dont think it will be an anti facist movement in disguise that aims to turn governments into facist regimes but subtle tricks like above (like the patriot act) where where they tell people "this is for your own good" when in reallity its is tightening the grip of power over people. I think this might be more the point trying to be made with the anti facist comments

jessop1

If theres one thing I find as repugnant as racism or bigotry its the suggestion or implication of same, where none exists - no matter how cleverly or subtly that suggestion or implication is made. Looking at bonkeys question again...

bonkey wrote: »

Are you using "global banking cartel" as a euphemism for Jews (or some subset thereof), or do you mean an actual cartel of banks?

Theres three questions here -
1 - Does "global banking cartel" mean "Jews"
2 - Does "global banking cartel" mean "some subset of Jews"
3 - Does "global banking cartel" mean an actual cartel of banks?

I'll address those 3 questions in reverse

3 - Yes "global banking cartel" means an actual cartel of banks.

2 - let me ask you - What kind of a subset of "jews" am I allowed to suggest may be involved in the "global banking cartel" before it becomes unnacceptable to for you to discuss? there are 13.2 million jews in the world. 200 is a subset of that. 2 is a subset of that. If 2 jews (or 2 members of any ethnicity/racial or religious group) conspire to commit some evil act (say, murder) and I say that they are evil people does that make me anti-semitic or anti whatever the race religion or ethnicity happens to be? similarly, if I was to suggest that say 200 jews are among this global banking cartel conspiring against all humanity, does that make me a hater of the 13.2 million? how much of a subset of a given race/religion/creed am I allowed to criticise for their own actions before it makes me an racist against that race???? please do tell

1 - So seeing as we've covered "subset", I can only take your 1st question to mean - Does "global banking cartel" mean ALL Jews - all 13.2 million jews.

Oh thats not a loaded question at all bonkey is it?? not a hint of a whiff of a suggestion of anti-semitism there is there? :rolleyes: , :rolleyes::rolleyes: & :rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

bonkey wrote: »

In the latter case, I don't understand the argument at all and would hope you could explain it to me.
In the former case, I'm not interested in discussing it.

Disengenuous, as ever. If you "don't understand the argument at all", you were quick enough to provide that "international financiers" link to back up your extremely flawed argument that the term "global banking cartel" (a term not mentioned in your link by the way) is generally accepted as meaning "jews" - just because your link said adolph hitler (and henry ford) said so. unbelievable. again...:rolleyes:

bonkey wrote: »

..my request for an explanation as to how these people and their cartel were necessary for both fascist and anti-fascist movements.

ever heard the phrase "Money makes the world go round"
unfortunately its true...somehow I think you already know that though...

Let me just finish by saying that with regard to the global banking conspiracy, which is very real, and whose upper echelons includes jews and other races/religions among its number, I believe that the vast majority of the 13.2 million jews in this world are also victims of this evil conspiracy as are every other race on this planet.

jessop1

ps - although I am for the most part against moderator intervention, if there was any consistency in how this forum is moderated I would expect some kind of intervention over your attempt on this thread to imply racism where none exists.