Fee Paying Schools

cson

(I would have put this in the Education forum if there was one, and I could probably have stuck it in the Leaving Cert forum but its the parents opinions I'm after really.)

I'm after reading a piece on fee paying schools in the Indo this morning. Over 25,000 students in Ireland attend fee paying schools in this land. We've had a lengthy debate on this over in the Leaving Cert forum and my opinions on this are steadfast.

I think it's absolutely ludicrous that the State helps pay the salaries of teachers in these schools, gives money to aid the building costs in Catholic schools and gives aid to Protestant schools due to their minority status. Having been educated in a community school myself I believe it's down to the individual mostly and that if you work hard enough you can achieve everything to an extent. Having said that having a two tier education system is against my principles. I would ideally like to see a more socialist type system where everyone is equal and oney cannot buy one into a supposedly "better" school. I can dream.

The main question I want to know though is, would you send your child to a fee-paying school? And if so, why?

Nevyn

Hedge Schools FTW

Define fee paying ?
Is that a direct tuition payment or a cotrabution to the running of the school ?

mikemac

If it was the Atari Jaguar school.

Down with socialism!

biko

No

cson wrote: »

(I would have put this in the Education forum if there was one, and I could probably have stuck it in the Leaving Cert forum but its the parents opinions I'm after really.)

The main question I want to know though is, would you send your child to a fee-paying school? And if so, why?

Parenting?

My kids will be homeschooled

Terry

Undecided

I'm going to tape you to a flag pole, Biko.

An Citeog

No

cson wrote: »

I think it's absolutely ludicrous that the State helps pay the salaries of teachers in these schools, gives money to aid the building costs in Catholic schools and gives aid to Protestant schools due to their minority status.

Could you please clarify this point?

I went to a Christian Brothers school where we had to pay a "voluntary" contribution of about €100 a year. It's a very good school and I'd happily send my kids there.

That said, I've got nothing against private schools. Results don't lie and although they may be seen as exam-oriented rather than offering a more balanced education, it's up to the individual. I don't think anyone should have the right to force their beliefs on another.

Ruen

Undecided

An Citeog wrote: »

Could you please clarify this point?

I went to a Christian Brothers school where we had to pay a "voluntary" contribution of about €100 a year. It's a very good school and I'd happily send my kids there.

That said, I've got nothing against private schools. Results don't lie and although they may be seen as exam-oriented rather than offering a more balanced education, it's up to the individual. I don't think anyone should have the right to force their beliefs on another.

Yeah but if the private school is getting thousands of euro per student every term should the school still get capitation grants and have their teachers salaries paid by us?

ferdi

ugh not again

TPD

Hedge Schools FTW

Terry wrote: »

I'm going to tape you to a flag pole, Biko.

Dont forget to get your kid to tape his kid to a bench.

Voodu Child

Undecided

Would i send my kids to a fee-paying school? No.

If they were so stupid that I had to pay thousands of euro to help them pass the joke of an exam that the leaving cert is, i'd probably disown them.

Nightwish

Undecided

No. The fee paying school in my town is crap. Its in no way superior to any of the other schools in town but you have to pay €4000 a year for it! Not to mention they've Saturday school. I wouldnt put any kid through that.

eamoss

No

Private Schools FTW

I went to a fee paying school for 6 years, did my LC in 2006. We paid about €2500(I think) a year about 80% of that went to paying for extra teachers so that our classes were small about 20-25 students in each class.

No scumbags in Private schools only wanna-be-scumbags

sdanseo

No

eamoss wrote: »

Private Schools FTW

I went to a fee paying school for 6 years, did my LC in 2006. We paid about €2500(I think) a year about 80% of that went to paying for extra teachers so that our classes were small about 20-25 students in each class.

No scumbags in Private schools only wanna-be-scumbags

Same, to the T. My school was more expensive but definitely worth it.The sense of community in a small school makes it worth any money, especially if you're not that great at getting to know people.

One regret is that college is a bigger, wilder world coming from a small school.

ejmaztec

No

Unfortunately, there are some teachers in the public education system who should never have become teachers. As if by some divine intervention, they carry on for years in their secure jobs, seemingly without them having to prove that they know what they're talking about.

If one has to pay to get away from this problem, then, unless you want a dimwit son or daughter, you've got to get your wallet out.

Geography teachers talking about Czechoslovakia, when it hasn't existed since the early 1990s.

Other teachers who insist on saying Westminister, when it's always been Westminster.

It makes me cringe.

Ruen

Undecided

eamoss wrote: »

Private Schools FTW

I went to a fee paying school for 6 years, did my LC in 2006. We paid about €2500(I think) a year about 80% of that went to paying for extra teachers so that our classes were small about 20-25 students in each class.

No scumbags in Private schools only wanna-be-scumbags

My parents paid a contribution of €100 each year and I was never in a class of more than 25 for the whole 6 years, seems like a waste of 15 grand just to be in smaller classes.

Ruen

Undecided

ejmaztec wrote: »

Unfortunately, there are some teachers in the public education system who should never have become teachers. As if by some divine intervention, they carry on for years in their secure jobs, seemingly without them having to prove that they know what they're talking about.

If one has to pay to get away from this problem, then, unless you want a dimwit son or daughter, you've got to get your wallet out.

Geography teachers talking about Czechoslovakia, when it hasn't existed since the early 1990s.

Other teachers who insist on saying Westminister, when it's halways been Westminster.

It makes me cringe.

I went to a public school and I'm not a dimwit, in fact most people I went to school with are not dimwits either, and my parents never got their wallet out.
Oh and just out of curiousity are there any teachers like that in private schools or are they all perfect?

ejmaztec

No

Ruen wrote: »

I went to a public school and I'm not a dimwit, in fact most people I went to school with are not dimwits either, and my parents never got their wallet out.

You obviously didn't have "some" of the teachers that I mentioned.:)

Ruen

Undecided

|Cookies wrote: »

6 Grand a year for the school i went to, kept the scum out anyway!

thoes fees helped pay for new buildings such as classrooms, libary, sports hall.

*shrugs*

It's just a pity you have to live in the real world when you're finished, can't keep the scum out of that eh.

eamoss

No

Ruen wrote: »

My parents paid a contribution of €100 each year and I was never in a class of more than 25 for the whole 6 years, seems like a waste of 15 grand just to be in smaller classes.

Looking back now I am really thankful that my parents sent me to a private school. I really enjoyed my 6 years (we had to do TY) there and I know if I had gone to any other of the schools in my area I would have hated my 5 years in them schools.

My parents where going to send me to a non fee playing school where most of my mates went to but they knew I wanted to do Tech Drawing and Construction which that school didnt offer and they thought I wouldnt enjoy my stay there. How right they were.

I got a lot of slagging off all of my mates for going to that school. But to say that I would enjoy going in everyday and sad leaving at the end of the school day says something.

Like I said I was able to pick subjects that they didnt offer in other schools like I did GCSE P.E as well.

For my LC I had two big classes Geography (30) and Construstion (25) which was the biggest Construstion class my teacher ever had all my other classes had about 18 or so students in them like for Tech Drawing (10), GCSE PE (6) Business (18) and German (3)

If I hadnt gone to private school I know I would have gotten 100 less points than I did.

ejmaztec

No

Ruen wrote: »

Oh and just out of curiousity are there any teachers like that in private schools or are they all perfect?

If the teachers are crap, the school will fold through lack of results. It pays the teachers to keep up with what's going on in the world.

kirving

I go to a community school, and believe me, the teachers and facilities are second to none!

cson

Undecided

Thaedydal wrote:

Define fee paying ?
Is that a direct tuition payment or a cotrabution to the running of the school ?.

Direct tuition payment, i.e. paying €6000 a year to attend a school

An Citeog wrote: »

Could you please clarify this point?

According to the indo; "catholic fee-paying schools recieve money for a portion of their building costs"

Mary Hanafin is certainly shaking up the Dept of Education at the moment, revising the leaving cert timetable and that no new fee-paying secondary schools will recieve state support.

Time Magazine

If it was the Atari Jaguar school.

Cson, private schools receive funding for the simple reason that it saves the state money. It subsidises private schooling for those who would otherwise would not be able to afford it ("We can afford €6k a year, but not €7k") and gets the parents to pay the majority of it; otherwise the state would have to pay for all of it. Pragmatically, it is good to support them.

Secondly, with regard to the "socialist ideal" of removing the two-tier system, private schools are defended with some vigour in the constitution.

That said, at this point in time, I'd have concerns about sending my kids to private school. I think it gives them an unfair advantage. I expect paternal instincts will cop that on if I ever have a kid, though.

Lizzykins

Undecided

If I had millions I wouldn't send my kids to private school in a fit. I read that indo article and it said some of the private schools like Gonzaga and Blackrock College are over subscribed and the rest are actively looking for kids.
My kids go to a community school in South Dublin. It has an Astroturf pitch and the most up to date equipment and facilities you can ask for. And as far as I know the max in each class is 30 or so. In practical classes it's much less.
As someone else said"how will the private school kids cope in the real world when shock horror they have to mix with the rest of us!
those.
And don't think the results are any great shakes either. If you are not bookish to some extent they don't offer practical subjects like Tech Graphics or Woodwork.

Terry

Undecided

|Cookies wrote: »

6 Grand a year for the school i went to, kept the scum out anyway!

thoes fees helped pay for new buildings such as classrooms, libary, sports hall.

*shrugs*

Money well spent.

FlutterinBantam

|Cookies wrote: »

6 Grand a year for the school i went to, kept the scum out anyway!

thoes fees helped pay for new buildings such as classrooms, libary, sports hall.

*shrugs*

Fookin bargain:D:D

Firetrap

Undecided

At the moment, the Yes vote is 21 and No is 13. I notice not very many people who posted a comment on the thread said they'd send their kids there. Does this mean that saying you'd send your kids to fee paying school is like admitting you vote Fianna Fáil or wear kinky underwear - you'd never admit to such a thing in public yet you do them behind closed doors

cooperguy

My brother repeated his leaving cert in a fee paying school last year. He brought up his points by 180. The school definatly helped him improve.

Twinkle-star15

No

I go to a private school, because I had a choice between that and an all-girls convent school . I didn't actually want to go to either of them, but I'm glad I picked the way I did. I thought the school would be really posh and stuck-up, but the people are (generally) really nice, even if the principal is a bit of an *ahem*.

I think we get a better subject choice- I know there's no way I'd be able to do the subjects I'm doing now in any other school in the county. I don't think anything else is much different though... Since it's a Protestant school with a Catholic majority as well, I think we get a less biased religious education, which I really like. It also puts a really big emphasis on personal development as well as academic.

In the end it comes down to what suits the individual, and some people are going to do well no matter what school they go to, and vice versa. But I don't think fee-paying schools should be ruled out automatically- if you can afford them/qualify for a grant why not?

Pinker

eamoss wrote: »

Looking back now I am really thankful that my parents sent me to a private school. I really enjoyed my 6 years (we had to do TY) there and I know if I had gone to any other of the schools in my area I would have hated my 5 years in them schools.

My parents where going to send me to a non fee playing school where most of my mates went to but they knew I wanted to do Tech Drawing and Construction which that school didnt offer and they thought I wouldnt enjoy my stay there. How right they were.

I got a lot of slagging off all of my mates for going to that school. But to say that I would enjoy going in everyday and sad leaving at the end of the school day says something.

Like I said I was able to pick subjects that they didnt offer in other schools like I did GCSE P.E as well.

For my LC I had two big classes Geography (30) and Construstion (25) which was the biggest Construstion class my teacher ever had all my other classes had about 18 or so students in them like for Tech Drawing (10), GCSE PE (6) Business (18) and German (3)

If I hadnt gone to private school I know I would have gotten 100 less points than I did.

Did they teach grammar in them schools:rolleyes:..?

ejmaztec

No

Pinker wrote: »

Did they teach grammar in them schools:rolleyes:..?

Don't need grammar for bildin' and tech drorin':cool:

jahalpin

No

I went to a fee-paying school from prep 4 (4th class) right up until 6th year and I believe that it was money well spent. I moved from a state school with around 30 people in each class to a school with around 15 in the class, which gave the teacher a lot more time to interact with each pupil.

The fees for most private schools are less than €4,000 a year which is a lot less than they would have to charge if they had to pay for the teachers, teachers are civil servants with civil servant rates of pay and conditions of service so as well as paying for over 4 months holidays a year they would also have to pay a large contribution to the teachers pension fund

My friend lives in England and she has been quoted around £4,500stg to send each of her 2 young children to private school and this will rise to around £8,500 each a year when they goto secondary school

PS: One of the reasons that I moved was because the 4th class teacher I was to have in my old school had had a nervous breakdown years earlier and was still teaching

Terry

Undecided

Pinker wrote:

Did they teach grammar in them schools:rolleyes:..?

Did they teach grammar in those schools? :rolleyes:

ryanairzer

Undecided

I would never send my kid to a fee paying school. It's not my fault the bitch wasn't on the pill and I'll be damned if I'm gonna pay for my bastard's education.

Sinfonia

If it was the Atari Jaguar school.

Lizzykins wrote: »

As someone else said"how will the private school kids cope in the real world when shock horror they have to mix with the rest of us!

That's a load of bollocks.
How would going to a non-fee-paying school make someone more comfortable with other people when they finish?

Lizzykins wrote:

And don't think the results are any great shakes either. If you are not bookish to some extent they don't offer practical subjects like Tech Graphics or Woodwork.

Blackrock do both of those subjects.

JC 2K3

Undecided

eamoss wrote: »

No scumbags in Private schools only wanna-be-scumbags

Which, from a societal perspective, is exactly what's wrong with private schools.

Firstly, how many kids are full blown scumbags at age 12? Not many tbh. Teenage years are such a crucial part of forming one's identity and what one's experience of education is and who one hangs around with during this time is going to be crucial to their personal development. Segregating kids based on their parents relative wealth disillusions kids from poorer families and makes wealthier kids selfish, self-important and pretentious(to varying extents).

I mean, look at some of the responses in this thread, "Private schools offer better subject choices", for example. Better subject choices? Jesus, how pretentious can you get? We're talking about teenagers here. Since when did teenagers become important enough to be accommodated with "better subject choices"? It's the fecking LC ffs.

Also, the selfishness and self importance is evident in some of the responses to this thread. For example, someone mentioned class sizes. You think that just because your parents had money that you deserve to be in a smaller class than someone who's parents didn't?

nesf

Undecided

No. He'll be going to a Gaelscoil. That and I don't see a point in paying four or five grand a year for second level unless your kid is showing a lot of talent in some sport and would benefit from access to the equipment or something.

nesf

Undecided

JC 2K3 wrote: »

Also, the selfishness and self importance is evident in some of the responses to this thread. For example, someone mentioned class sizes. You think that just because your parents had money that you deserve to be in a smaller class than someone who's parents didn't?

Ah, but someone sending their kids to private school is taking some of the burden off the public system and helping to decrease class size in public schools etc.

JC 2K3

Undecided

nesf wrote: »

Ah, but someone sending their kids to private school is taking some of the burden off the public system and helping to decrease class size in public schools etc.

As opposed to letting more people into the private school and balancing the numbers of students between the available schools in a certain area?

nesf

Undecided

JC 2K3 wrote: »

As opposed to letting more people into the private school and balancing the numbers of students between the available schools in a certain area?

Private schools are private entities they aren't part of the public system and we can't reasonably expect them act like it when it would degrade the service that they charge for. It'd be like expecting taxis to charge lower rates when going to areas that aren't near bus routes and allowing people from these areas to skip ahead at the taxi ranks.

ryanairzer

Undecided

It seems like a lose-lose situation. Maybe it's time to disband the education system and hope for the best.

melekalikimaka

No

fee schools have the edge, they canprivide more than public end of story. teachers are teachers, better ones will go to schools of better pay, and fee paying gives better facilties. its a silly question.

phasers

Hedge Schools FTW

I was recently in a private school for a Debate competition
they have separate buildings for different things
and a POOL

and from what I saw their class sizes are tiny and their teachers seem to have all written books on their subjects

anybody that says a good education is free has obviously never seen one of these places

philologos

If it was the Atari Jaguar school.

cson wrote: »

I think it's absolutely ludicrous that the State helps pay the salaries of teachers in these schools, gives money to aid the building costs in Catholic schools and gives aid to Protestant schools due to their minority status. Having been educated in a community school myself I believe it's down to the individual mostly and that if you work hard enough you can achieve everything to an extent. Having said that having a two tier education system is against my principles. I would ideally like to see a more socialist type system where everyone is equal and oney cannot buy one into a supposedly "better" school. I can dream.

I think you're spot on, and I'm just finishing in a fee-paying school this year. In building projects the State have given the school aid in building because we are of minority status.

I also agree with what you say next. You can achieve anything you wish in public schools either, and infact some people (although few) do not achieve what they want in private schools. Although, my school boasts often about our LC and JC results being above the national average, and above the local crammer schools such as the Institute.

I'd be interested in what you say about the "socialist" based school system, what exactly does that entail?

MagicMarker

No

JC 2K3 wrote: »

Firstly, how many kids are full blown scumbags at age 12?

You've obviously never lived where i have lived.

MagicMarker

No

Personally, if a fee paying school were to guarantee a smaller class size (15 or so) and better facilities, teaching and subject choice then of course i would send my children there. Any parent who could afford it would and should.

The amount of times you see a school in a deprived area, such as near Jobstown, Brookfield etc with the Mercs, Beemers and 4x4's queued up outside waiting to pick up their kids is unreal. If i can afford a car like that then i wouldn't send my kid to any old school. Especially in **** holes such as those:)

I may be generalizing here but.... so what!

kittex

If it was the Atari Jaguar school.

I think one of the big issues is that you don't actually have to be a qualified teacher to teach in Ireland.

Someone with a maths degree and no training or experience with young people, can, technically, walk into a school and teach Geography if the school wants them to. My cousin has been taught Leaving Cert Chemistry by a 23 year old with no experience or qualifications other than a History degree.

It happens far too often.

The current system devalues teaching and good, qualified teachers should be valued for the impact they can make.
If I was a parent, I'd be very concerned if someone unqualified was teaching my child, especially if my child had an additional learning need that many unqualfied teachers don't know how to cope with.
I wish more parents would complain about this issue, as maybe then it would be dealt with.

MagicMarker

No

kittex wrote: »

My cousin has been taught Leaving Cert Chemistry by a 23 year old with no experience or qualifications other than a History degree.

No offence, but that sounds like complete bollix

Maclommis

MagicMarker wrote: »

No offence, but that sounds like complete bollix

It actually happens a lot, particularly in rural secondary schools where there is a lack of qualified teachers in particular subjects. I remember the school I went to there were several teachers teaching subjects that were not in their qualified area. It was considered alright if the teacher did that subject at honours level in the leaving cert.

Terry

Undecided

MagicMarker wrote: »

No offence, but that sounds like complete bollix

Why?
Let's be generous here and say the guy started his degree at 17.
He would be 21 when it was finished.

That leaves a maximum of two years to gain experience.

It's not impossible that he could walk into a school right away.
It's also not inconcievable that he spent two years looking for a teaching post.

On the other hand, Thaedydal, people have to start somewhere.
You don't gain experience overnight.

MagicMarker

No

Terry wrote: »

Why?
Let's be generous here and say the guy started his degree at 17.
He would be 21 when it was finished.

That leaves a maximum of two years to gain experience.

It's not impossible that he could walk into a school right away.
It's also not inconcievable that he spent two years looking for a teaching post.

On the other hand, Thaedydal, people have to start somewhere.
You don't gain experience overnight.

The fact that he's teaching isn't ''bollix'', but the fact he has a history degree and is teaching Chemistry sounds like crap to me... I mean, c'mon! Things can't be that bad, how is it even possible to teach something, especially something like chemistry, without knowing anything about it?

I think it's a case of he said she said and the facts given here are a far sight from the truth.