Irish involvement in WW2

Mr.Nice Guy

I've been watching a series on RTE1 called 'War Stories' about the Irish who fought in the British Army during World War 2.

I was wondering if anyone here has relatives who fought with the British Army at the time?

Also what are your thoughts on those who enlisted to fight in the war? Do you see them as traitors as many people did at the time?

Would be interesting to hear people's views.

Terry

Moved from AH.

DublinWriter

My great uncle fought with the Irish Brigade during the liberation of Italy.

I'm very proud of him. I've also had relatives fight in WWI and more recently others have been members of the British and Irish Armies in the 70's.

My larger family are very typical of your average Irish 'Civil War' family with close members going to extremes of either side of the spectrum.

Pherekydes

My father joined the Royal Navy towards the end of WWII, and worked as an artificer, loading bullets and bombs on aircraft. Both of my grandfathers fought in the trenches in WWI, though to what extent I don't know. They both predeceased my arrival by 15 years and neither of my parents talked much about it, though both received injuries of some sort (maybe gassing).

I'm glad they joined the fight on the right side, and I'm also glad I've never had to make such a choice (joining the forces of a foreign power).

delta_bravo

My uncle joined the Royal Artillery in the 70s and I wouldnt regard him as a traitor. If I had a relative that fought in WW2 I would feel very proud. They did a great service

Latchy

It was proved recently that considerably more irishmen form the south of ireland enlisted in the BA during WW2 than those from the north , how ironic ? .It must also be rememberd that irishmen who served in the irish army march in the poppy day parades in London under the banners of the Irish UN and ONE and IVA associations ,and have being doing so for many years .Some of these men will also have served in the British Forces at some time .

Snickers Man

Oh great. It's the time of the year for the great poppy debate!! Good oh!!

My grandfather died while serving in the British Army in WWII. I've been to see his grave. He was a bit of a black sheep. He came from a very republican family and they fell out badly for a while, but were reconciled before he died.

I am neither proud nor ashamed of my grandfather. I like to find out as much as possible about the war and the reasons for it. I don't think anybody should shirk from the facts of history.

It also takes a great leap of faith to say that "we" were on the right side in WWI. If that was about "the rights of small nations" as people here were led to believe at the time, then how come the British Empire was bigger at the end of the war than at the start? Ditto for France. And Italy.

I dislike this notion that we as a nation should now try to ingratiate ourselves with the powers who fought against Germany in WWII by pretending that we lent full support to the Allied cause. We stayed out of it because we were able to and any sane nation would have done the same thing. Most sane nations in Europe tried to do so but were sucked in regardless. By one side or the other.

We should make no apologies for our stance at that time.

Mr.Nice Guy

Nice to read these stories. I myself had a great-grandfather who was one of the Desert Rats in Africa. He was fairly old when he joined. I think he was a father at the time. My dad told me as a kid that he joined up for the money but that doesn't lessen my respect for his involvement. He died a few years after coming home as I understand it. Never really spoke about his time there.

His wife, my great-grandmother, lived to a fine age well into her nineties and I had a good relationship with her. She died when I was about 9 which is a shame as I'd love to have known more about her memories.

I personally don't think the men who enlisted should be regarded as traitors as in a way they were fighting for this country as well as all of Europe and I see it as a fight that was necessary.

If anyone else has stories to tell or a view on this period please share them.

P_1

Snickers Man wrote: »

I dislike this notion that we as a nation should now try to ingratiate ourselves with the powers who fought against Germany in WWII by pretending that we lent full support to the Allied cause. We stayed out of it because we were able to and any sane nation would have done the same thing. Most sane nations in Europe tried to do so but were sucked in regardless. By one side or the other.

We should make no apologies for our stance at that time.

Slightly OT but I agree wholeheartedly with that statement. Lets face it if we had joined the Allies one or two proper visits from the Luftwaffe would have probably finished us as a country.

Anyways back OT turns out my great grandfather won some medals for serving in the Boer War, I suppose back in the day it was food on the table for a lot of Irish people, something I feel has been greatly overlooked.

Fratton Fred

pithater1 wrote: »

Anyways back OT turns out my great grandfather won some medals for serving in the Boer War, I suppose back in the day it was food on the table for a lot of Irish people, something I feel has been greatly overlooked.

I said something similar to someone the other day, about how many men joined up to put food on the table. The guy was qite vocal saying it was very patronising, most men joined up for the reason most people joined up in those days, it was an adventure and the politics etc did not come into it. Many of those men would have joined up long before the age at which they would have had families to feed, maybe they wanted to get escape poverty etc, but then why did they not just go to England like thousands of their fellow country men.

I think this whole concept of Iishmen joining the British Army because poverty/famine orced them to is just a bit too convenient.

P_1

Good point, I suppose I never thought of that myself.

r3nu4l

Fratton Fred wrote: »

Many of those men would have joined up long before the age at which they would have had families to feed, maybe they wanted to get escape poverty etc, but then why did they not just go to England like thousands of their fellow country men.

I think this whole concept of Iishmen joining the British Army because poverty/famine orced them to is just a bit too convenient.

You seem to forget/ignore the fact that during those days many families in Ireland were quite large and quite often the wages earned by older brothers and sisters in a family went into the pot at home to feed their siblings, not their children!

Were they traitors? No. Was it a pity that they had to join the army to earn money to feed their brothers and sisters? Yes.

Why did they not go to England like thousands of their fellow countrymen instead of joining the army? I think you'll find that there wasn't as much money available for jobs in England as their was for jobs in the trenches! That was the reason they joined the army instead of just taking the boat to England.

Fratton Fred

r3nu4l wrote: »

You seem to forget/ignore the fact that during those days many families in Ireland were quite large and quite often the wages earned by older brothers and sisters in a family went into the pot at home to feed their siblings, not their children!

Were they traitors? No. Was it a pity that they had to join the army to earn money to feed their brothers and sisters? Yes.

Why did they not go to England like thousands of their fellow countrymen instead of joining the army? I think you'll find that there wasn't as much money available for jobs in England as their was for jobs in the trenches! That was the reason they joined the army instead of just taking the boat to England.

I'm not ignoring the fact and i wasn't trying to imply that people did not join for those reasons. I wasn't talking about any particular war, or any particular time in Irish history. There are irish men and women still joining the British armed services. Are these people traitors, doing so out of a need to feed siblings or just want to join up and this was their preferred option?

whatever the reason, there were a lot of people from Ireland who joined the British Army in WWII out of choice, quite likely because they wanted to fight on what they considered to be the side of right vs Nazi Germany.

r3nu4l

Fratton Fred wrote: »

I think this whole concept of Iishmen joining the British Army because poverty/famine orced them to is just a bit too convenient.

Sorry, I took this to mean you were denying the fact that some people did join for those reasons. It is certainly true that plenty of Irish people joined on foot of a 'greater calling' purely to fight the Nazis. I'm glad I've never had to make the choice for any reason.

I have a question for anyone who does condemn Irish people for joining the British Army. Taking the point of being 'traitors' a bit further, do we as Irish people condemn those who choose to join the French Foreign Legion and fight for France? Or is conemnation as 'traitors'only reserved for those who join up with 'the old enemy'?

dubtom

My Grandfather fought in WW2 in India. I'm disgusted I never asked him about his expierence before he died,all I know is he was away for 3 years, my grandmother lost her voice for a week when he came home and they had a big party. Thats the problem when you don't get the info first hand,because that's all my mother remembers,she was 10 at the time.I suspect that he served in the burma area too,as India as a war venu has never been mentioned in any docu's I've seen.
My greatgrandfather died in the trenches,again very scant info on him,not a nice husband or father aparently,so my grandmother never talked about him.
One thing that does bother me somewhat is that on the CWGC site Irish as a nationality is not included,we are heaped in with the UK. I know we were part of the UK at the time but so was india/australia/canada/african and new zealand and they have their own section.Maybe the irish war dead numbers aren't big enough to warrent a seperate mention. I'm probably just nit picking though,I greatly admire men of any nation who went to war for whatever reason, it must have been an horrendous expierence.

Fratton Fred

dubtom wrote: »

One thing that does bother me somewhat is that on the CWGC site Irish as a nationality is not included,we are heaped in with the UK.

That's a good point, unless they refer to the regiment and not the person's nationality. The Irish in WWII being considered British.

purple'n'gold

dubtom wrote: »

My Grandfather fought in WW2 in India. I'm disgusted I never asked him about his expierence before he died,all I know is he was away for 3 years, my grandmother lost her voice for a week when he came home and they had a big party. Thats the problem when you don't get the info first hand,because that's all my mother remembers,she was 10 at the time.I suspect that he served in the burma area too,as India as a war venu has never been mentioned in any docu's I've seen.
My greatgrandfather died in the trenches,again very scant info on him,not a nice husband or father aparently,so my grandmother never talked about him.
One thing that does bother me somewhat is that on the CWGC site Irish as a nationality is not included,we are heaped in with the UK. I know we were part of the UK at the time but so was india/australia/canada/african and new zealand and they have their own section.Maybe the irish war dead numbers aren't big enough to warrent a seperate mention. I'm probably just nit picking though,I greatly admire men of any nation who went to war for whatever reason, it must have been an horrendous expierence.

india/australia/canada/african and new zealand were never part of the United Kingdom.

SEPT 23 1989

my mothers two uncles both fought in WW2 one was blown apart by the japs in singapore (age 17) and the other one fought against rommell in the desert in north africa, I think it was terrible that when these young blokes came home they had to to keep quiet about fighting to save the world from being overun by Hitler we can only imagine what it would have been like to lose six years of your life at a young age witnessing the unimaginable horrors of war.
THEY ARE ALL HEROES

purple'n'gold

Of course they are heroes; any one who fought against the worst tyranny ever to blight the face of this earth is a hero. They didn’t dance with comely maidens at cross roads, they done their bit to preserve civilization.

grahamo

purplengold wrote: »

Of course they are heroes; any one who fought against the worst tyranny ever to blight the face of this earth is a hero. They didn’t dance with comely maidens at cross roads, they done their bit to preserve civilization.

They are heroes in my book. How anyone can call them traitors is unbelievable! If people think the Nazis would have stopped at England there fooling themselves. but for these Irish fellas we'd all be talking german now!

Fratton Fred

grahamo wrote: »

They are heroes in my book. How anyone can call them traitors is unbelievable! If people think the Nazis would have stopped at England there fooling themselves. but for these Irish fellas we'd all be talking german now!

and yet Sean Russell gets a memorial in Glasnevin:rolleyes:

purple'n'gold

Fratton Fred wrote: »

and yet Sean Russell gets a memorial in Glasnevin:rolleyes:

Yes, but we’re Irish, we do things differently.

Latchy

Quote snickers man - We stayed out of it because we were able to and any sane nation would have done the same thing. Most sane nations in Europe tried to do so but were sucked in regardless. By one side or the other.

We should make no apologies for our stance at that time

.Having a heap of irish sea between us and fortress europe was also a great help in us not being invaded .If their was no English channel either ,who's to say Hitlers hoards wouldent have broke through like they did every other country ?.
De velara (spelling ) was more worried about the brits invading from the north than he was of any german invasion and he had a plan for such an eventuality

.I know the thread is about irishmen who served in British Forces during WW2 but intrestingly enough, how many joined up post war to the present day ? Those that did joined up for a better life/adventure and see more of the world which was not available to them back home (unless you went overseas with the irish army on UN duty ) .Politics or sense of betrayal in most cases never came into their thinking when joining up with the British, who had an armed presence ,Army ,Navy ,Air force all around the world since the cold war .

Oh great. It's the time of the year for the great poppy debate!! Good oh!!

For or against , lots of irishmen north and south do it anyway .

dubtom

purplengold wrote: »

india/australia/canada/african and new zealand were never part of the United Kingdom.

Commonwealth so,is there any difference.

Manic Moran

There was a cartoon in the newspapers of the time. Two British soldiers in a foxhole on the beach in Normandy, bullets whizzing over their heads. One Tommy is saying to the other Tommy: "Well, Seamus, you can say what you like about Dev, but at least he kept us out of this war..."

The bit that gets me is the official denial for a while that there was a war on. When a guy from Malahide was killed when HMS Hood was sunk (Read: Blown to pieces in an ammunition explosion by Bismark), his death was reported in the Irish Times as the result of "a boating accident"

NTM

ejmaztec

latchyco wrote: »

.Having a heap of irish sea between us and fortress europe was also a great help in us not being invaded .If their was no English channel either ,who's to say Hitlers hoards wouldent have broke through like they did every other country ?.
De velara (spelling ) was more worried about the brits invading from the north than he was of any german invasion and he had a plan for such an eventuality

.I know the thread is about irishmen who served in British Forces during WW2 but intrestingly enough, how many joined up post war to the present day ? Those that did joined up for a better life/adventure and see more of the world which was not available to them back home (unless you went overseas with the irish army on UN duty ) .Politics or sense of betrayal in most cases never came into their thinking when joining up with the British, who had an armed presence ,Army ,Navy ,Air force all around the world since the cold war .

For or against , lots of irishmen north and south do it anyway .

The Nazis had no respect for neutrality, with the exception of that of the Swiss. They were just looking after some of the funds.

Ireland would have been invaded by the Nazis and my late uncle would have fought them off with his LDF issued broomstick, which also covered as a gun. Of course, some guerilla war veterans would have started a campaign against the invader. The British would aslo have been down here and The IRA wouldn't have been able to decide which "enemy" to shoot first.

What was Devalera's plan? I didn't know that he had one.

purple'n'gold

Broadly agree with what you are saying. Except, there would be very few guerrilla war veterans most of our “freedom fighters” only crawled out from under rocks when the British left.

Manic Moran

Well, both the British and Germans had plans. The Brits figured it would take all of four divisions to conquer Ireland militarily and at least hold important points like Cobh. The Germans didn't go into any great details beyond an initial invasion: The Army weren't too keen on the idea as trying to supply Ireland in the face of the Royal Navy would have been a losing proposition.

NTM

Latchy

Quote - ejmaztecThe British would aslo have been down here and The IRA wouldn't have been able to decide which "enemy" to shoot first.

or who to join ......

What was Devalera's plan? I didn't know that he had one.

Yes he did have a plan .he sent his son up to the border to implement it should the occasion arise (although some argue it was to keep him from out of mischief down south ) and it even had a code name .

I posted an article on this in another forum about 2 years ago titled ' who are we neutral against ?' , and will see if i can find it ......bare with me .


We must also remember that the RAF were defending irish waters (and our nutrality, permission giving by dev ) along with a few Air Corps planes .

Apparently the boys in the ack ack at baldonnel decided to shoot down what they thought was a german bomber , but turned out to be a plane taking some irish officers from cork to Dublin ........ah well!

Aedh Baclamh

Any stories about Irish men fighting for the Germans during both wars? Would find that much more interesting to be honest.

Latchy

Lord Haw haw during WW2 was one , altough he did not as far as we know fight in any combat .....:D