Irish involvement in WW2

TerrorFirmer

Aedh:

http://www.csn.ul.ie/~dan/war/ssvols.htm

Brady and Stringer continued to work, on and off, for the Abwehr, but eventually their services were dispensed with and, rather than doing agricultural work as POWs, both opted to join the Waffen-SS. They reported to Sennheim in October 1943 and were posted to 'Jagdverbande Mitte' in March 1944, under the aliases 'Charles Strength Lacy' and 'Willy Lepage'.

Brady certainly took part in operations in Rumania, as well as 'Operation Panzerfaust' - the arrest of Admiral Horthy, whilst Stringer appears to have had a quieter time, working as a cook. In early 1945 both were fighting on the Eastern Front as members of Otto Skorzeny's ad hoc division at Schwedt an der Oder. By this time, Brady was an Unterscharfuehrer. As the war came to an end, Stringer escaped westwards and gave himself up to US forces, who handed him over to the British, whilst Brady, who was wounded, was in an SS hospital. He escaped after the Russians had taken it over and spent more than a year 'on the run' with other Waffen-SS 'special forces' soldiers before giving himself up to the British in Berlin. He received a fifteen-year sentence at a court martial in London in 1946.

Aedh Baclamh

Thanks for that HavoK, never heard about that before. Have you read 'The Forgotten Soldier' by the way?

boneless

My Grandfather was a Connaught Ranger in the first war, in the IRA during the Civil War and ended up in the Free State army after the Dump Arms order... he then joined the RAF during the second war... never sure of the reason for this but assume he recognised the threat of facism. I am sorry I never got around to asking him.

I knew Irish men who had been in the International Brigades in Spain who joined the British army to continue this fight against the Nazis. I also knew some of these men who could not bring themselves to join what they percieved as an imperial powers armed forces. Some of these became fire fighters or ambulance crew to aid the struggle however.

There were many reasons for Irish men, and women too, to join the Crown Forces. They should all be respected for these ideals, no matter if we disagree with some of them.

Aedh Baclamh

The same apply for those, albeit very few, that fought for the Axis?

Dizzyblonde

My grandfather was in a tank regiment in the British Army during WW2. He left the Irish army to join up for the money and because he'd been badly let down by de Valera at one point during his service.
Irish men have fought in all the major wars, including the Spanish Civil War and the American War of Independence. I saw a plaque in Canada dedicated to soldiers who died in action and there was a huge number of Irish names on it.
Apart from the money though, I think it was the adventure and excitement that made a lot of Irishmen go off and fight in those wars. And let's face it, there wasn't a lot of prospects for them here at the time.
I definitely wouldn't call them traitors, patriotism doesn't put food on the table.

McArmalite

ejmaztec wrote: »

The Nazis had no respect for neutrality, with the exception of that of the Swiss. They were just looking after some of the funds.

Ireland would have been invaded by the Nazis and my late uncle would have fought them off with his LDF issued broomstick, which also covered as a gun. Of course, some guerilla war veterans would have started a campaign against the invader. The British would aslo have been down here and The IRA wouldn't have been able to decide which "enemy" to shoot first.

What was Devalera's plan? I didn't know that he had one.

Well, when britain and the drunken war criminal churchill were implying they were going to annex the 26 counties for the ' greater good ' of britian's war effort, ( naturally the Irish weren't going to be consulted on what we regarded as our greater good), what did britian have as a fighting force after Dunkirk etc - Dad's Army. The brits were literally hanging on by their finger tips without starting God knows what else in Ireland.

" What was Devalera's plan? I didn't know that he had one. " Seen a series of programmes on T na G about neutrality during WW2 maybe 12 months ago. The plan was that we had a division around the border counties to delay a british invasion of the 26 while we called on the Germans for aid. Likewise, a division in the south east, to delay a German invasion while Dev called on the brits for assistance. How successful they would have been is anyone's guess. Both plans were leaked to either side by the Machevilian Dev, and well, the bluff seemed to have worked, or maybe both sides had enough on their plate as it was, britian just hanging in, Germany the build up for the Eastern front.

Latchy

''

What was Devalera's plan? I didn't know that he had one. "

Quote -McArmilite

Seen a series of programmes on T na G about neutrality during WW2 maybe 12 months ago. The plan was that we had a division around the border counties to delay a british invasion of the 26 while we called on the Germans for aid. Likewise, a division in the south east, to delay a German invasion while Dev called on the brits for assistance. How successful they would have been is anyone's guess. Both plans were leaked to either side by the Machevilian Dev, and well, the bluff seemed to have worked, or maybe both sides had enough on their plate as it was, britian just hanging in, Germany the build up for the Eastern front.

Hence the joke /Quote '' who are we Neutral against '' ? , and a very apt one at the time to .....

Fratton Fred

McArmalite wrote: »

Well, when britain and the drunken, fat, ugly pig and war criminal churchill were implying they were going to annex the 26 counties for the ' greater good ' of britian's war effort, ( naturally the Irish weren't going to be consulted on what we regarded as our greater good), what did britian have as a fighting force after Dunkirk etc - Dad's Army. The brits were literally hanging on by their finger tips without starting God knows what else in Ireland.

I've just reported this by the way, until you can come up with something you can prove, then I suggest you lay off the war criminal comments. The other comment about Churchill is just juvenile. Fortunately Britain still had the RAF who managed to hold out long enough to prevent an invasion and save not only Britain's, but Irelands arse as well (The RAF protecting Ireland, not much has changed there has it:rolleyes:).

McArmalite wrote: »

" What was Devalera's plan? I didn't know that he had one. " Seen a series of programmes on T na G about neutrality during WW2 maybe 12 months ago. The plan was that we had a division around the border counties to delay a british invasion of the 26 while we called on the Germans for aid. Likewise, a division in the south east, to delay a German invasion while Dev called on the brits for assistance. How successful they would have been is anyone's guess. Both plans were leaked to either side by the Machevilian Dev, and well, the bluff seemed to have worked, or maybe both sides had enough on their plate as it was, britian just hanging in, Germany the build up for the Eastern front.

As I have said on another thread, if Ireland opted for the German side, what other choice would Britain have had other than to invade Ireland. Strategically, Ireland falling into German hands would have been a disaster.

boneless

Aedh Baclamh wrote: »

The same apply for those, albeit very few, that fought for the Axis?

I'm afraid I have got to admit to prejudices against some of those who decided to join the Axis; some of the ones though, who had little choice could be forgiven. I am thinking in the main of Frank Ryan, although apart from the attempt (aborted for well known reasons) to land him in Ireland he did little else for Abwher or the regime in Germany until his untimely death in 1944.

Hagar

It's grossly unfair to label Churchill a war criminal. He was never tried or convicted of anything.

On the other hand if the Germans had won I'm sure they would have had a few words to say about the blanket bombing of cities, Dresden for instance, to wipe out the civilian workforce.

The Germans did retaliate in kind but they didn't adopt this tactic until it had been used against them.

Deliberate bombing of civilians is an atrocity, but the winner writes the history books.

McArmalite

Hagar wrote: »

It's grossly unfair to label Churchill a war criminal. He was never tried or convicted of anything.

On the other hand if the Germans had won I'm sure they would have had a few words to say about the blanket bombing of cities, Dresden for instance, to wipe out the civilian workforce.

The Germans did retaliate in kind but they didn't adopt this tactic until it had been used against them.

Deliberate bombing of civilians is an atrocity, but the winner writes the history books.

Thanks for the reply, you actually made my point in your own posting, " .....Churchill a war criminal. He was never tried or convicted of anything......Deliberate bombing of civilians is an atrocity, but the winner writes the history books. ".

boneless

Who was it who said that history is an agreed fable?

Fratton Fred

Hagar wrote: »

Deliberate bombing of civilians is an atrocity, but the winner writes the history books.

so we can ignore everything written about Irish history that is written by an Irishman? How about, History is written to suit people's arguement?

This is going off track and Churchill has been discussed on here many times, but I think it is safe to say, without Churchill, European political geography may well be very different

Hagar

McArmalite wrote: »

Thanks for the reply, you actually made my point in your own posting, " .....Churchill a war criminal. He was never tried or convicted of anything......Deliberate bombing of civilians is an atrocity, but the winner writes the history books. ".

I didn't make your point at all. I made my point, by reasoned argument without the side order of rant.

In all fairness you're right Fred, European political geography would be different but for Churchill's actions.
I am glad of the outcome but I still can't applaud the method used to obtain it.

boneless wrote:

Who was it who said that history is an agreed fable?

You did. Just here.

purple'n'gold

"I've just reported this by the way, until you can come up with something you can prove, then I suggest you lay off the war criminal comments. The other comment about Churchill is just juvenile. Fortunately Britain still had the RAF who managed to hold out long enough to prevent an invasion and save not only Britain's, but Irelands arse as well (The RAF protecting Ireland, not much has changed there has it)."

They also had the Royal Navy which the Germans could not match.

Fratton Fred

purplengold wrote: »

They also had the Royal Navy which the Germans could not match.

indeed, the Germans knew they could not get control of the seas so they needed control of the air, which due to "The Few" they did not get either.

boneless

Fratton Fred wrote: »

indeed, the Germans knew they could not get control of the seas so they needed control of the air, which due to "The Few" they did not get either.

I heard recently but have not been able to confirm it, that the RAF was on the point of collapse but the Luftwaffe did not press on with the campaign which would have crippled Britain. Can anyone here confirm this?

By the way, to get back on topic... The Clancy brothers, or at least three of them, were in the RAF during the second war and they were members of the Tipp Brigade IRA too....;)

Hagar

That's absolutely correct. They were part of the little known "Bánín Bomber Squadron" which teased the Germans mercilessly at Stalingrad by air-dropping snuggy warm Aran jumpers just out of their reach in no-man's land in the depths of the Russian winter.

McArmalite

Fratton Fred wrote: »

(The RAF protecting Ireland, not much has changed there has it:rolleyes:).

Protecting us from who ??? This is a statement that comes up regularily, I would have thought that as long as we are not going around the world like our lovely next door neighbour, especially the middle east, bombing and murdering thousands of innocent people, then Bin Liner and his friends or anyone else will hardly be bothered with us ??? ( though the Yanks use of Shannon could jeprodise that one - but that's another discussion, the Politics forum would be best for it I think).

This is the 'protector' that planned and supplied the UVF to bomb Dublin in 1974 murdering 33 people as well as other murderous bombings in Dublin, Dundalk, Monaghan and around the border during the 25 years of the conflict. Indeed, this great 'protector' is the only country in the world to imply that they would annex the 26 counties - during WW2. Some 'protector'

Pherekydes

This isn't a thread about Dresden, Omagh, Stalingrad or Warrington. It's about Irishmen who served in the two world wars.

Hagar

Actually it's only about WWII but who am I to be pedantic?

McArmalite

Slow coach wrote: »

This isn't a thread about Dresden, Omagh, Stalingrad or Warrington. It's about Irishmen who served in the two world wars.

True enough, Fred made the comment, I replied.

TerrorFirmer

boneless wrote: »

I heard recently but have not been able to confirm it, that the RAF was on the point of collapse but the Luftwaffe did not press on with the campaign which would have crippled Britain. Can anyone here confirm this?

By the way, to get back on topic... The Clancy brothers, or at least three of them, were in the RAF during the second war and they were members of the Tipp Brigade IRA too....;)

Yes. Earlier in the campaign the Germans had been bombing RAF Airfields and more importantly radar stations. But they switched back to attacking the cities. Of course, as with the Dunkirk thing, it's easy to say in hindsight 'oh why didn't they continue...'. They didn't realize the true damage they were inflicting. If they had, yes they would have probably easily gained air superiority. Without Radar the RAF was on equal, actually inferior, terms with the Luftwaffe. Radar enabled them to direct their limited forces in concentrated groups to attack the biggest German concentrations. As you can imagine, without Radar it was more a case of an Air Force versus a much bigger enemy Air Force. It's a common ideal that superior Johnny Englishman walloped inferior Jerry over the channel with a cigar in his mouth and a monocle stuck to his face. Not so, really.

Britian were not 'saving Irelands Arse' either. They went to war for Poland but were only interested in Ireland in so far as it represented a potential threat to the UK itself.

Latchy

Quote =boneless;

I heard recently but have not been able to confirm it, that the RAF was on the point of collapse but the Luftwaffe did not press on with the campaign which would have crippled Britain. Can anyone here confirm this?

Hitler had the oppurtunity to press on his attack with Britain but choose instead to advance eastward and focus on the russian campaign ,hence losing the inititive .He also screwed up at Normandy in not giving his generals the troops and tanks they asked for to repel the alied invasion , if he had their might have being an entirely different outcome to D-Day .

TerrorFirmer

latchyco wrote: »

Hitler had the oppurtunity to press on his attack with Britain but choose instead to advance eastward and focus on the russian campaign ,hence losing the inititive .He also screwed up at Normandy in not giving his generals the troops and tanks they asked for to repel the alied invasion , if he had their might have being an entirely different outcome to D-Day .

I really don't think that's what he meant.... You're looking at much too broad picture. The 'initiative' in the air was lost before he invaded Russia

Manic Moran

Hagar wrote: »

The Germans did retaliate in kind but they didn't adopt this tactic until it had been used against them.

I'm not so sure about your sequence of events. Barring the bombing of London by Zeppelin in WWI, which had the Germans set a definite precedent, the British city raids in WWII didn't start (Aug 25, Berlin) until after about two weeks of raids by the Germans. (Aug 15, London)

NTM

Hagar

Although I was aware of them, I discounted the Zeppelin raids as the thread was WWII themed. But to be honest a few bombs hand thrown out the window of a gas filled balloon does not compare with carpet fire-bombing of numerous cities night after night.

If you think it does vote for George Bush III, coming soon to a theatre, of war, near you.

Latchy

Quote - HavoK;

I really don't think that's what he meant.... You're looking at much too broad picture. The 'initiative' in the air was lost before he invaded Russia .

yes that is true the ' initiative ' was lost before the russian campaign and there are different theorys as to why he didn't proceed when England was ' on its knees ' (historians words ) Hitler was like a greedy dog with his eyes on two meals but unsure as to which one to eat first .

Fratton Fred

Britain conducted most of the war on it's knees. I don;t think anyone talks about the RAF being superior, in fact they were outnumbered but as has already been said, radar helped them concentrate their limited resources.

I'm not sure Hitler was greedy, just impatient. He wanted britain crushed quickly so he could concentrate on Russia, when that didn't happen he just seemed to get frustrated and gave up. No doubt expecting to come back later.

The Allies were fortunate throughout the war, America joining in the nick of time, very successful misinformation etc. I think it was Napoleon who Said "Don't bring me good Generals, bring me lucky ones". (Or something like that). A good example is Hawker building the Hurricane with no orders fromthe government. Chamberlain refused to increase the airforce because he did not want it to be seen as an act of aggression, Hawker uilt hundreds of aircraft off their own back. If they had not, there would not have been sufficient numbers of Hurricanes for the Battle of Britain.

I remember viiting the Runnymede war memorial once and being surprised at the number of both Irish and Polich pilots remembered there. The RAF supplied most of the men, but they did not work alone, there was a lot of help.

Latchy

Quote =Fratton Fred;

Britain conducted most of the war on it's knees. I don;t think anyone talks about the RAF being superior, in fact they were outnumbered but as has already been said, radar helped them concentrate their limited resources.

I'm not sure Hitler was greedy, just impatient. He wanted britain crushed quickly so he could concentrate on Russia, when that didn't happen he just seemed to get frustrated and gave up. No doubt expecting to come back later.

The Allies were fortunate throughout the war, America joining in the nick of time, very successful misinformation etc. I think it was Napoleon who Said "Don't bring me good Generals, bring me lucky ones". (Or something like that). A good example is Hawker building the Hurricane with no orders fromthe government. Chamberlain refused to increase the airforce because he did not want it to be seen as an act of aggression, Hawker uilt hundreds of aircraft off their own back. If they had not, there would not have been sufficient numbers of Hurricanes for the Battle of Britain.

I remember viiting the Runnymede war memorial once and being surprised at the number of both Irish and Polich pilots remembered there. The RAF supplied most of the men, but they did not work alone, there was a lot of help.

Hitlers impatients and his lack of trust in his generals judgement cost him dearly.When his troops were bogged down in the russian winter lacking esential food, equipment ,troops and supplies he refused to supply and send more troops, and when his top general in Normandy asked for the 3 panzer divisions that were available to cut off the allied advance after the landing he also refused then to. The americans coming into the war at the right time was a godsend ,somtimes their british counterparts dont like to give enough credit for .