Irish involvement in WW2

FiSe

DublinDes wrote: »

Very true. Fighting for a country that is still occupying six of our counties. I do not hate or thiunk the Irishmen who fought in the Birtish army in WW2 were traitors, but I can'nt see why we should have a monument to them. Put me right if I'm wrong, but what country honours men with monuments to them if they fought in a foreign army ?

Where should I start? Eh?

Czech Republic, Poland, France, I can see that Norway, Holland, Belgium etc, have memorials for their men in who fought in foreign armies, speaking of WWII.
/And of course there's plenty of monuments built by native nations to memorise foreign armies..., but you have to know this /

Mrs. MacGyver

My grand uncle gought in the RAF in WW2. He was only 21 when he died and had qualified as an engineer. I don't see him as a traitor. My family still talk about him. I see him as being a young man brave enough to take on the enemy of Fascism. Since his death various members of my familyhave enlisted in the British Army, Irish Army and Royal Navy such was his influence on his grand neices and nephews.

Dyr

[QUOTE= I see him as being a young man brave enough to take on the enemy of Fascism. .[/QUOTE]

adolph was the enemy of fascism? BTW during WW2 it took an immense amount of lobbying by irish america to ensure that the american govt. forced winston and his chums to respect irish neutrality. If winston had been given his way he would have made your grand uncle a traitor in every sense of the word.

Tenger

Many good points being made here:Time for my several cents,

I feel that Irish History has left out the individual bravery of thousands of Irishmen who have enlisted with the British Army (and other forces) since 1922.They fought for what they believed in. Why not commemorate their sense of honour/pride/whatever? I would love to see more than just the UN service commemorated. Am heading to see that display in Collins Barracsk this week,hope its good.

Yes Dev was smart to keep us 'neutral' (My grandad as an LDF volunteer escorted an RAF pilot the 6 miles to the border to get back into the fight in 1940) i do not like the influence Dev has had on this country but neutrality was a safe decision. Perhaps being an Ally would have gained us stuff from the Marshall Plan,perhaps not. However our constitution still allows our citizens to enlist in the British Armed forces without being mercenaries, so he recognised the desires of many of our citizens.

If Germany had conquered the UK we would have been tolerated as long as we toed the party line. Look at Yugoslavia post 1945. Nominally independant from Moscow but still under the heel.

The Battle of Britain has been eulogised over the years. Yes,fighter command were on their knees until the Germans thought they had won and attacked cities. From then on fighter Command was actually growing in numbers versus the Lufwaffe. Not quite "The few". The book "Panzerkrieg" tells the tale of 'The Few' panzermen who allowed Germany to hold on for as long as it did.

Dresden was an atrocity-It was a refugee centre and had never been hit as it was beyond the reach of USAAF/RAF bombers until airfield in france were captured. The Soviets did not do strategic bombing. The do not even know how many civilians were killed there,at least 30K I believe is the normal figure. Also the ethnic cleansing of Pomerania,Prussia,Silesia and Poland by the Soviets was also a "war crime"

Compare Hitler and Stalin. Both totalitarian dictators. One meddled in military affairs and killed/sidelined generals who disagreed with him,one let the generals run the war but killed any who failed him. Hitler was a hindrance to the German military yet they still fought up to the end. If you read 'Stalingrad' or 'Berlin' by Anthony Beevor or 'Red Storm on the Reich' By Patrick Duffy you can appreciate how well both sides on the Eastern front operated militarily.


Sorry am going all off topic. i feel something should change in relation to how Ireland treats its history of Irishmen fighting in the British Army. look at the press coverage for that woman from the west who was killed in Afghanistan recently.

To that end I have decided to wear the Red Poppy with my uniform at work for the next month. Keep in mind I am from a Nationalist family from along the Armagh-Monaghan border so am aware of how ppl can interpret this. however I am working in Dublin so the possiblity of being beaten by iron bars like that guy up home 10 days ago is pretty much non-existent.

Today was the second day and some guy (Southern county dublin accent,maybe wicklow)asked me quite pointedly "Why are you wearing a poppy" as if it was wrong. I replied "because my grandfather fought and died in WWII" (the other grandfather than the LDF one)

I am not doing it to glorify the achievements of the British Army but to acknowledge that Irishmen have fought and died in wars that where not Irelands wars. Should I paint the second poppy I bought green and wear it instead? Don't like the politics of the White Poppy,unfortunately I do believe military action can be justified.

Edited to get back on topic

darkman2

There can have been no other option for Ireland then to remain neutral. The morality of it may have been questionable but those who question it today would want to have a long hard think about why it was actually the Anglo-Irish that were the most virulent supporters of neutrality. Supprising as it may be, this is true. One thinks they had a better understanding of the consequences for the handful of unprotected southern cities in German bombing raids which would have been devestating. The saving in lives that neutrality represented is incalcuable and the fact Dev had to see off the Americans, British and Germans (all at one time or another during the war considering invasion) in the political jousting has to be accounted as one, if not, possibly the greatest political feat of the 20th century. Thats probrably putting it lightly. Ireland was under very severe pressure.

kreuzberger

FiSe wrote: »

Where should I start? Eh?

Czech Republic, Poland, France, I can see that Norway, Holland, Belgium etc, have memorials for their men in who fought in foreign armies, speaking of WWII.
/And of course there's plenty of monuments built by native nations to memorise foreign armies..., but you have to know this /

the difference is though they were allies of those foreign armies , not from countries under the occupation of the same foreign armies . You dont see many memorials to Dutch and French SS regiments

At the end of the day it isnt all about us , we are a small unindustrialised island off the coast of mainland europe with a tiny population . Many countries remained neutral in ww2 for very good reasons and dont bat an eyelid about it . We had very good reasons not to get involved , numerous very good reasons . Viewing yourself in the context of the anglo-sphere as opposed to a nation whose had centuries of conflict with an aggressive neighbour who insists on dominating and occupying our island causes all this handwringing . It was an act of self determination and one fo the very few things Id praise Devalera for . I despise the man but he did the right thing in that instance and saved thousands of Irish lives .
And on another level Irish political opposition to getting ivolved in what was a British war certainly at the outset would have prevented him from getting involved anyway . It would have meant the end for Devalera on the political scene . Even the British did not dare introduce conscription north of the border for fear of radicalising the nationalist population . De Valera was faced with a similar political reality . The people didnt want it , simple as .

kreuzberger

Bramble wrote: »

I feel that Irish History has left out the individual bravery of thousands of Irishmen who have enlisted with the British Army (and other forces) since 1922.They fought for what they believed in.

the British empire ?

Why not commemorate their sense of honour/pride/whatever?

Because there has been an angl Irish conflict for centuries , therefore it is considered inappropriate and undignified by many people who place a value on us cutting our imperial and colonial apron strings and moving on to the modern world outside of englands dominating shadow .

. However our constitution still allows our citizens to enlist in the British Armed forces without being mercenaries, so he recognised the desires of many of our citizens.

His constituion accepted southern Ireland was still a dominion of the crown , therefore couldnt outlaw it without direct confontation with Britian . A republic was not declared until post ww2 in the free state . People born in southern Ireland under his constitution were still automatically Bitish citizens . My own father found this out to his cost when he went to work in england during the 50s and found himself a British army conscript , still techinically a British citizen . He found out later he could have appealed it but was only a teenager on his own at the time and didnt question it .

If Germany had conquered the UK we would have been tolerated as long as we toed the party line. Look at Yugoslavia post 1945. Nominally independant from Moscow but still under the heel.

much like our arrangement with Britain

Dresden was an atrocity

Irishmen participated in that atrocity . However you believe they should be honoured . Irishmen also participated in the atrocity that was the Bengal famine in India , amritsar , dropped mustard gas on kurdish villages , god knows how many others thanks to their proud service in persuit of British imperilaism.

-It was a refugee centre and had never been hit as it was beyond the reach of USAAF/RAF bombers until airfield in france were captured. The Soviets did not do strategic bombing. The do not even know how many civilians were killed there,at least 30K I believe is the normal figure.

most people accept 100,000 civilians , mostly women and children were incinerated , deliberately burned alive , in this deliberate targetting of a civilian refugee centre with absolutely no military value . As I said Irishmen participated in this crime against humanity whilst wearing British military uniform . I dont believe they should be commemorated in this country or honoured in any manner . We have no history of hostility with Germany , except perhaps with the Saxe - Coburg Gotha family . Germany was an ally of Ireland in WW1 and made great efforts to assist us in fighting for independence . Sadly despite that assitance we failed to acheive full independence even to this day . Hence the reason why theres much discomfort about honourable British army careers being celebrated . The vast majority of Irish people have no interest in doing so and feel no need to . Many are emabrassed at the thought of it and regard it a backward and servile notion when we should be moving on with confidence instead of glorifying a subservient colonial ideal .

Sorry am going all off topic. i feel something should change in relation to how Ireland treats its history of Irishmen fighting in the British Army. look at the press coverage for that woman from the west who was killed in Afghanistan recently.

Afghan soldiers have never occupied Ireland . Afghan troops did not slaughter Irish citizens on Bloody Sunday . Afghan military intelligence did not detonate no warning car bombs in rush hour dublin and monaghan town in 1974 . The taliban does not occupy part of our national territory .
Im afraid the British military are the ones enagaged in these very hostile acts directed at our country andour citizens . Therefore many Irish people take a dim view of the British military and are very reluctant to honour them

To that end I have decided to wear the Red Poppy with my uniform at work for the next month. Keep in mind I am from a Nationalist family from along the Armagh-Monaghan border so am aware of how ppl can interpret this. however I am working in Dublin so the possiblity of being beaten by iron bars like that guy up home 10 days ago is pretty much non-existent.

I feel i should point out to you for your own sake that the pssibility of you encountering hostility in a city which the British military intelligence services bombed is actually quite high . People are still angry about this There was quite a large riot not too long back when willie frazer attempted to carry the photogrpahs of dead British army members through oconnel street . National pride runs very deep in Dublin . Many people in Dublin find the poppy offensive for both personal and historical reasons . There was a rebellion there . Britian shelled the city , Dubliners burned down the British embassy in 1972 . If you wore it into my workplace Id either complain to my supervisor and demand he make you remove it or Id go to my union rep and tell him Im walking out until you remove it. Your actions have the capacity to offend people .

Today was the second day and some guy (Southern county dublin accent,maybe wicklow)asked me quite pointedly "Why are you wearing a poppy" as if it was wrong. I replied "because my grandfather fought and died in WWII" (the other grandfather than the LDF one)

youve obviously offended at least one person who has confronted you on your emblem

I am not doing it to glorify the achievements of the British Army but to acknowledge that Irishmen have fought and died in wars that where not Irelands wars.

but you will clearly offend people . I acknowlege Irishmen have fought and died in foreigners wars . I dont care to sport a British military emblem in my lapel however . It isnt necessary simply to acknowlege an historical fact

Should I paint the second poppy I bought green and wear it instead? Don't like the politics of the White Poppy,unfortunately I do believe military action can be justified.

Military action has been regularly justified by the British military agaisnt your own nation and people . This is why many people would find your British military emblem very offensive , even deliberately offensive .

Hav you considered an alternative method of acknowleging historical fact in a manner which will not antagonise and offend your fellow citizens and work colleagues ?