Rep of Ireland -v- Cyprus

Mr Alan

DesF wrote: »

Well, the majority of Brazilians, Argentines and French players play at least some time in their home leagues before moving on to bigger leagues.


Scotland for example.

Every single one of them Scottish players who are doing so well lately started in the SPL. And the SPL, apart from the old firm and the odd random team once in a while, is of a relatively poor standard. Correct?


Unless it's Liverpool getting bashed eh


Meh, top five maybe.

But I don't know much about the SAmerican leagues, I doubt you do either.

And still, you haven't answered why the FAI expect a foreign system to develop it's players? Why we, as a nation, seem to accept it as "just the way it is" and no-one asks the question.

Look, hundreds of young talented players head off to England every year. The majority of them come back a few years later with their dreams in tatters, and no interest in playing football. All because the pressures of the Premiership demand instant success, and the big clubs, instead of nurturing young talent, as they did a decade or more ago, are now just buying in the already developed talent.

Would the standard of the national league not improve if we were able to keep the talent here? Instead of players going over to England and ending up broken shells, why not spread them around the eL for a few years, give them a taste of playing in a proper meaningful league, instead of some reserve division, then if they are good enough at 18/19/20/21 I'd have no problem with them moving on, in fact I'd encourage.

Sure, players like Kevin Doyle, Shane Long and Stephen Hunt ARE too good for the eL, I know that. I also accept that the eL will never be as good as the PL, La Liga, Serie A, Bundesliga etc etc because we simply don't have the population to have it like that, but if the FAI got the finger out as regards developing young talent, it WOULD be better, and therefore the national team would benefit.

You know it makes sense.

First off, me and you are kind of talking about 2 different things, i am talking about the national team being strong....whereas you are talking about both an improvement in the national team and in the standard of the EL.
I agree that in a perfect world, it would be excellent if our players were developed more in the EL and then only the best of the best taken to England to go onto bigger and better things on the club scene.
unfortunately, this is bordering on an impossible scenario, the way football works now (in general) is that kids are spotted at a very young age and then nutured and developed by a club. I understand that this leaves a lot of peoples dreams smashed when they never make it, but it also provides us with world class talents occassionally.
I see no real reason why our INTERNATIONAL team suffers as a result of the majority of our youth being developed in England. I agree that our national league suffers as a result, but being 100% honest, thats not my concern (sorry).
Ireland are not looking to become a football superpower on the international stage, all we want is to be able to compete and qualify for major tournaments. Something that we should currently be able to do with the talent at our disposal.
Blaming the FAI for the poor developement of some of our players is more to do with your grievances with the FAIs treatment of the EL than of the national team imo. (grievences which you are more than entitled to hold as an EL fan).
As for not allowing anyone to bash liverpool? too ****ing right

Pal wrote: »

Has he been sacked yet ?

what's keeping them !

they wont sack him

redspider

redspider wrote: »

If we look at rugby for an example, I don't even know who the chief executive of the IRFU is and there wasnt a whimper from rugby fans calling for his/her(?) head after the WC knock-out and under-par performances! Granted there was some success under the rugby manager previously but surely the results v Namibia and Georgia should have resulted in equal ferocity of an attack towards their CEO.

Redspider

Well theres a couple of massive differences there.


1) We are calling for their heads. Remember there is a lot of outrage at Eddie being given a 4 year contract BEFORE a ball was kicked. they should have waited. But thats where the comparison stops because Eddie although im not a fan, is an accomplished manager, Stan is not.

2) Unlike Stan, the IRFU at east had some justification in O Sullivan in that he has done a decent enough job with the Irish team. And he has shown competancy to manage at that level. Therefore NOBODY could have seen the Namibia and Georgia results coming so the CEO's cant take the blame for that. We all were skeptical about Stan's ability to do the job from the start.

3) Delaney is a lot more of a public figure than those on the IRFU committee so people tend to not call for the heads of those whose names they dont know.

_blank_

PHB wrote: »

But that's bs. Doyle was developed in the Irish league and he was jsut as crap as anyone last night. The fact that they were developed in the English system isn't why they were crap. The players we had in the previous golden years were nearly all developed in the English system.

That was before the influx of 'foreign' youngsters.

(I'm going to use foreign to mean non-British Isles, and local to mean British isles, ok?)

Look at United in the mid nineties. The Beckham/Neville/Butt/Scholes era. All developed by United, all fairly local lads.

Now, who was the last local talented youngfella to come out of United, or even Liverpool for that matter?

What they are doing now is going for the likes of Nani, Anderson etc, partially developed young players from afar.

The 'local' lads aren't getting a look in any more. McShane is a perfect example. He knew he wouldn't have a chance of game time with United, because either there is a better foreigner there (Pique), or someone else would be bought in on massive money. He had to leave United for Sunderland to get a game. How many Irish youngsters don't even get that far?
What happens to them once they come home?

They certainly aren't playing in the eL, and that's the shame of it.

Still, no one has answered.

Why do we expect a foreign system to develop our players?

Mr Alan

DesF wrote: »

Why do we expect a foreign system to develop our players?

wat do you propose as an alternative Des? Banning anyone under 21 moving to England to pursue their dream? This would be worse again when it comes to improving the national team imo.

_blank_

Mr Alan wrote: »

Banning anyone under 21 moving to England to pursue their dream?

Well that's a bit extreme.

But at the moment, there is NO option for them.

Nada.

It's either go to England, or go fúck yourself, because the FAI don't give a rats ass about football in this country. At ANY level.

And this is what is killing the national team. The two are intrinsically linked, like it or not.

Mr Alan

DesF wrote: »

And this is what is killing the national team. The two are intrinsically linked, like it or not.

See...i just disagree....the same situation was in place in 1990,1994,2002 but yet we were still able to qualify for major tournaments, thats all the majority of people want.

Do you have any suggestions for an alternative way for the FAI to work it?

DesF

DesF wrote: »

Why do we expect a foreign system to develop our players?

Do u think if Giggs had played in Wales in his younger years he'd have been as good as he was?

Or Eto'o in Cameroon?
Or Essien in Ghana?


etc etc

What evidence do you have that keeping them in Ireland would be any better? Is it the surplus of world class coaches we have here who would be better placed to nurture these wonderkids????

Thats bull if u ask me. Messi turned out fine goin to Spain, As did Ronaldo who went to United at 17/18............. if anything they have a better chance being developed in England where there are better facilities.

Mr_Roger_Bongos

dubmick wrote: »

an online petition for Delaney to go would be a good idea. Some media exposure would help too.

www.delaneyout.com ??

I was going to post something similar.

Does anyone know are there plans for a protest/petition to remove staunton or delaney?

Every single Ireland fan i've talked to is in favour or Staunton leaving and i agree, he's a shambolic excuse for an international manager.

But put yourself in his shoes - His reputation in Ireland prior to his stint as manager was a relatively good one, he would have received a good reception anywhere he went. Can you imagine the reception he'd get now! If i were him, the reason i wouldn't stand down would be because my reputation is in tatters. I'd try to rectify things. Unfortunately i don't think he's capable of doing so.

Therefore, if your in the camp that believes Delaney and the F.A.I. will let the dust settle and continue on without taking action, a physical protest in Merrion Square seems like the only practical way to convey the anger of the fans. (though 1 problem might be things turning messy and a RIOT!) ( im also aware they're moving offices soon)

Everyone's complaining here and you may say that the fans are powerless vs. the F.A.I., but would you be willing to actually attend a protest?

...a protest the F.A.I couldn't have security remove you for. Surely that throw the spotlight squarely on the F.A.I. to take some action.

_blank_

Deleted User wrote: »

What evidence do you have that keeping them in Ireland would be any better? Is it the surplus of world class coaches we have here who would be better placed to nurture these wonderkids????

Thats bull if u ask me. Messi turned out fine goin to Spain, As did Ronaldo who went to United at 17/18............. if anything they have a better chance being developed in England where there are better facilities.

Finally. Finally.

Then FAI needs to

1. Improve coaching staff
2. Improve facilities
3. Set up an acadamy


Can someone tell me any other european football association that regularly sends hundreds of it's most talented youngsters to another country for development?

Or at the very least, an association that expects to qualify for major tournamants.

_blank_

Deleted User wrote: »

Or Eto'o in Cameroon?
Or Essien in Ghana?

This is excellent.

Cameroon and Ghana are third world countries. Emerging nations at best.

Ireland isn't.

We should have equal facilities to that found in England.

Why don't we?

MooseJam

they have a lot more money

Mr Alan

DesF wrote: »

We should have equal facilities to that found in England.

Why don't we?

Because in England is also the worlds richest league. Some of the worlds best players. A couple of the greatest Clubs in the history of Football. A fairly massive population in comparrison with our own, which obviously results in a massive pool of talent to choose from, which we just dont have.

kida

Staunton won't resign, the FAI won't sack him.

He should however do the honourable thing and go to them and say things aren't working out, pay me off a little and I will go quietly.

Villain

My quick 2 cents:

I paid good hard earned money to go to that game last night and I should be entitled to a refund, it was shocking.

Let me first say Steve Finan is the best player we have at the moment, he was excellent in the last two games. But thats where my praise ends, Staunton should be sacked for making Keane captain if for no other reason.

Look lets not kid ourselves Robbie Keane is proven goal scorer but he's no international captain, I didn't see him try to rise the team once during the last two home games, Richard Dunne should be captain with Given Vice Captain at least they know how to shout.

I don't like slagging off the players becasue I think they haven't got a fair chance Staunton doesn't know how to pick a team and John Deleaney doesn't know how to pick a manager, its that simple really. Staunton has to go and then Delaney has to go.

The FAI and the IRFU are going to selling 10 year premium tickets shortly for the new stadium but I don't know if you could describe either team as been premium at the minute.

Villain

http://www.gopetition.com/petitions/get-staunton-out-new-man-in/signatures.html

That_Guy

I was at the game last night. Dismal performance, dismal atmosphere and to top it off a dismal manager. Yes Stan was thrown in at the deep end but they need to get rid of him. We're an absolute joke of a team. How can we expect to qualify for the World Cup with a team like that?

I left as soon as the Cyprus goal went in. I had seen enough. Hunt should not in my opinion have been taken off. Why he kept Keane on I will never know. He was shambolic, emphasis on the word bolic....

We fans have every right to be angry and we let our voices heard when people began the chant "Stand up if you want Stan out".

Sizzler

Mr_Roger_Bongos wrote: »

Everyone's complaining here and you may say that the fans are powerless vs. the F.A.I., but would you be willing to actually attend a protest?

Defo ! Pencil me in

Sizzler

irish1 wrote: »

I paid good hard earned money to go to that game last night and I should be entitled to a refund, it was shocking.

Seriously mate, why dont you ring the FAI and enquire if you can have a refund? They might take the hint if enough people call them

At worst send them an email.

Ask a silly question but WTF ever happened as a result of the Genesis report? FOOK all as far as I can see.

PHB

I really think people should focus there protests towards Delaney. What's the point of getting rid of Stan just to be replaced by somebody worse? People wanted Kerr gone, but did they want Stan to replace him? Get rid of Delaney, and Stan will follow.

_blank_

DesF wrote: »

Can someone tell me any other european football association that regularly sends hundreds of it's most talented youngsters to another country for development?

...any takers?

genericgoon

Wales?

_blank_

PHB wrote: »

I really think people should focus there protests towards Delaney. What's the point of getting rid of Stan just to be replaced by somebody worse? People wanted Kerr gone, but did they want Stan to replace him? Get rid of Delaney, and Stan will follow.

No-one in the FAI is willing to say anything about Delaney, for fear that they themselves will be seen as 'troublemakers' in the future, and be overlooked for positions.

Quite simply, we are stuck with it.

Mr Alan

France?

Waster

A mate works for a Dublin based paper and he reckons that Stan is going and it'll be announced later on today. Hope it's true but it's only a rumour so don't shoot me if it doesn't happen.

Mr Alan

DesF wrote: »

We should have equal facilities to that found in England.

So do we agree that this was a ridiculous statement to make?

DesF

DesF wrote: »

This is excellent.

Cameroon and Ghana are third world countries. Emerging nations at best.

Ireland isn't.

We should have equal facilities to that found in England.

Why don't we?

U missed my point. Look at how letting them go worked out, it worked well.



Ireland is, in footballing terms, a third world country. Our club sides get hammered in the CL and UEFA Cup qualifying stages by teams none of us have ever heard of every single year (no offence to Eircom League fans here but thats the truth) We have no pedigree, we have qualified for a grand total of 4 major tournaments ever and they were all in the last 20 years. U talk as if we're like Brazil and we endlessly produce world class players. We dont. But with a bit of discipline and organisation we have good players who if organised could be a decent team. And we dont have the right man in the job for that to happen. We need a guy who will organise and work with what he has. We dont need a bunch of Kaka's and ronaldinhos to be competitive. Itd be nice but its not gonna happen so lets stop pipin on about not producing the world beaters we wouldnt be producing even if we had the facilities and focus on the fact that Stan just isnt up to it. And the FAI management have to shoulder the blame for not maximising the potential of what we have.

_blank_

Mr Alan wrote: »

So do we agree that this was a ridiculous statement to make?

Er, no.

This country is flooded with money. We CAN afford proper facilities, that is an absolute fact.

Fúck it though.

Let the English develop our players.

Savman

We are light years behind the English set-up. Yet even that fails their national side regularly, losing to Russia being a prime example.

Actually I consider us quite lucky to be geographically located to one of the big footballing leagues in Europe. There are more and more Irish players in Premiership and Championship teams and its no secret they have many scouts keeping tabs on this country. That shows that we do have the players, in some capacity, to assemble a good side.

This shouldnt turn into the tired LoI V Premiership debate again, there is no magic formula for a successful international side. And it doesnt say much for all of us that Ireland, England, Wales and Scotland are either out of Euro '08 or are relying on results elsewhere. So for all their money, success and TV rights, even the Premiership seems to be failing the England national team. They have their own problems so I dont think we can blame them for ours.

Its gas, our fans complain that all our good young players get shipped off to England and in England they complain their good young players are being hampered by increasing foreign players coming in. Considering the history between us and the Crown, there has to be irony in there somewhere.

Mr Alan

Exactly Des! finally you've seen sense

shane86

DesF wrote: »

wtf

Where had you heard that the decision was made long ago that under no circumstances was Stan being sacked? As said Id heard he had been set a two point minimum in E Europe (which in itself wasnt good enough, though we didnt even get the two)

_blank_

Deleted User wrote: »

U missed my point. Look at how letting them go worked out, it worked well.

Did it indeed?

Here's the squad list for Italia 90

1 Bonner • 2 Morris • 3 Staunton • 4 McCarthy • 5 Moran • 6 Whelan • 7 McGrath • 8 Houghton • 9 Aldridge • 10 Cascarino • 11 Sheedy • 12 O'Leary • 13 Townsend • 14 Hughton • 15 Slaven • 16 Sheridan • 17 Quinn • 18 Stapleton • 19 Kelly • 20 Byrne • 21 McLoughlin • 22 Peyton •

Less than a quarter of them were 'homegrown' - the rest are Granny-rulers.

Here's USA 94

1 Bonner • 2 Irwin • 3 Phelan • 4 Moran • 5 McGrath • 6 Keane • 7 Townsend • 8 Houghton • 9 Aldridge • 10 Sheridan • 11 Staunton • 12 G. Kelly • 13 Kernaghan • 14 Babb • 15 Coyne • 16 Cascarino • 17 McGoldrick • 18 Whelan • 19 McLoughlin • 20 D. Kelly • 21 McAteer • 22 A. Kelly

Seven or eight of them are homegrown.

Here's 2002

1 Given • 2 Finnan • 3 Harte • 4 Cunningham • 5 Staunton • 6 Roy Keane • 7 McAteer • 8 Holland • 9 Duff • 10 Robbie Keane • 11 Kilbane • 12 Kinsella • 13 Connolly • 14 Breen • 15 Dunne • 16 Kiely • 17 Quinn • 18 G. Kelly • 19 Morrison • 20 O'Brien • 21 Reid • 22 Carsley • 23 A. Kelly

Only Ten or maybe eleven of them lads were homegrown. Still less than half the squad.

So, actually, no.

We are still reliant on the Granny Rule.

The difference is that Ireland is no longer an attractive prospect for mercaneries like Clinton Morrison to declare for.

So we really DO need to start producing some more homegrown talent.

Deleted User wrote: »

Ireland is, in footballing terms, a third world country. Our club sides get hammered in the CL and UEFA Cup qualifying stages by teams none of us have ever heard of every single year (no offence to Eircom League fans here but thats the truth)

This is true, but there is no other reason for it than the league is neglicted. Simple

Deleted User wrote: »

U talk as if we're like Brazil and we endlessly produce world class players. We dont.

In actual fact, Ireland hasn't produced a world class player in over twenty years. The development and 'production' was all outsourced to England.

And no, I don't expect a Brazil-like team of Ronaldinhos.

Deleted User wrote: »

But with a bit of discipline and organisation we have good players who if organised could be a decent team. And we dont have the right man in the job for that to happen. We need a guy who will organise and work with what he has. We dont need a bunch of Kaka's and ronaldinhos to be competitive. Itd be nice but its not gonna happen so lets stop pipin on about not producing the world beaters we wouldnt be producing even if we had the facilities and focus on the fact that Stan just isnt up to it.

I agree with all of this

Deleted User wrote: »

And the FAI management have to shoulder the blame for not maximising the potential of what we have.

Seems to me we are blaming the FAI for different things, perhaps things that more to us as individuals.

The Genesis called for the implementation of an acadamy to stop the talent drain.

The genesis called for the restructuring and betterment of the national league.

Neither of these things has happened, FIVE years after the event that kickstarted the Genesis report.

joker77

DesF wrote: »

This country is flooded with money. We CAN afford proper facilities, that is an absolute fact.

Ok I have to disagree with this point. The country may be flooded with money, but Irish football isn't. Fair enough the FAI landed a boon of over 10 Million last Saturday, but football academies in England are for the most part funded by the club sides, correct me if I'm wrong. Which get their money from gate receipts, advertising, and telly deals.

Eircom League sides do not have that kind of money.

I agree with the idea DesF, that Ireland SHOULD have the facilities to train young talented kids here rather than packing them off to England, but before that happens the game here needs more money. It's a kind of vicious circle isn't it though

Historically I think the money that was in the game in Ireland has been misused and mismanaged.

yom 1

shane86 wrote: »

Where had you heard that the decision was made long ago that under no circumstances was Stan being sacked? As said Id heard he had been set a two point minimum in E Europe (which in itself wasnt good enough, though we didnt even get the two)

Well as i said a couple of pages back sky asked stan if he still had the FAI's backing and he said yes(which of course he would) and then they asked so the FAI said before these 2 games that no matter what happens your job is safe to which he said Yes.

I just pray that this is just him tryin to save face:(

_blank_

shane86 wrote: »

Where had you heard that the decision was made long ago that under no circumstances was Stan being sacked? As said Id heard he had been set a two point minimum in E Europe (which in itself wasnt good enough, though we didnt even get the two)

Oh hi Shane.

No, I think you took me up wrong.

Alls I was saying was, that with the noises coming out of Merrion Square, where a statement said that Steve must be allowed to continue his work, and on into the WC Quals, it seemed like the FAI wouldn't be sacking him.

And I still believe that.

Delaney won't sack Staunton, because that would be admitting a mistake. And John Delaney doesn't make mistakes.

DesF

DesF wrote: »

Did it indeed?


So, actually, no.

I was talking about how Cameroon and Ghana benefited from Eto'o and Essien getting their training in foreign countries not about the irish players. i was using that as an example of successul "outsourcing".

DesF wrote:

We are still reliant on the Granny Rule.

The difference is that Ireland is no longer an attractive prospect for mercaneries like Clinton Morrison to declare for.

So we really DO need to start producing some more homegrown talent.

Im happy as a pig in sh*t for Morrison to never wear green again. But I see what you are saying and in the last 2 years alone we have brought into the Irish setup the likes of Long, Doyle, Hunt, Keogh, O'Brien, McGeady etc. A better manager would have organised those players more effectively than Stan has.




The fact that nothing has happened since the Genesis report is fuel to the anti-FAI fire to be honest.

GuanYin

Unity people, unity!


This is not the time or place for a EL vs. EPl debate and I'll be closing the thread if it becomes that way.

Its for talking about the game and the aftermath.

Hopefully we'll be closing it soon anyway in favour of a "Staunton sacked" thread

Bounty Hunter

irish1 wrote: »

http://www.gopetition.com/petitions/get-staunton-out-new-man-in/signatures.html

dont know how serious that petition is considering three of the first names on it i noticed after clicking on that link were Brian Kerr and "the gaffer" Steve staunton signed it twice just on that page.

_blank_

psi wrote: »

Unity people, unity!


This is not the time or place for a EL vs. EPl debate and I'll be closing the thread if it becomes that way.

Its for talking about the game and the aftermath.

Hopefully we'll be closing it soon anyway in favour of a "Staunton sacked" thread

Well, psi, I wasn't trying to make it so, not at all.

I'm just trying to make people realise that there is more to Irish Football than the National Team, and that football in this country is rotten to the core. Every single aspect of it.

Also, I'm trying to show what should be done to try to get it back on some kind of steady footing.

Apologies to anyone who took me up as trying to make it an eL/PL thing, that certainly wasn't my intention.

All Anti-FAI from me, that's all.

---

dubmick

It gets worse. just looking at the Ireland group, there is a possibility of us coming second last!

If Wales beat us by more than two goals, if Cyprus get two points out of there last two games (Germany away and Czech Republic at home) and Slovakia get four points out of there last two games (away to Czech Rep and San Marino away) we will finish second last!!!

Fwaggle

Savman wrote: »

And it doesnt say much for all of us that Ireland, England, Wales and Scotland are either out of Euro '08 or are relying on results elsewhere.

Eh, Scotland aren't. In our own hands as they say.

Savman

Fwaggle wrote: »

Eh, Scotland aren't. In our own hands as they say.

So it would seem. All you have to do is beat the world champions
But I'll be routin for ye.

Fwaggle

Savman wrote: »

So it would seem. All you have to do is beat the world champions
But I'll be routin for ye.

Easy

rovingrover

dubmick wrote: »

It gets worse. just looking at the Ireland group, there is a possibility of us coming second last!

If Wales beat us by more than two goals, if Cyprus get two points out of there last two games (Germany away and Czech Republic at home) and Slovakia get four points out of there last two games (away to Czech Rep and San Marino away) we will finish second last!!!

That would be 6th.

Hugely embarrassing for football in San Marino that they finished below a team managed by Steve Staunton.

Savman

Fwaggle wrote: »

Easy

I'm not even kidding. Knock 'em dead.
tis fairly tight at the top o' that group.

_blank_

:eek::eek::eek::eek:

Ray Houghton is on George Hook right now.

My jesus, I think he's been reading my posts on here all day.

He pretty much said everything I've been saying about the eL, youngsters etc.

:)

Savman

DesF wrote: »

:eek::eek::eek::eek:

Ray Houghton is on George Hook right now.

Yeuch.

_blank_

Ha

ntlbell

DesF wrote: »

He pretty much said everything I've been saying about the eL, youngsters etc.

:)

What? stating the bleedin obvious?

:D

missingtime

Ray Houghton is really really annoying, I dont know how that guy gets to have anything to do with football analysis.

He always has this superior grin on his small head.

Shut up Ray...you scored a poxy goal and did a weird somersault and you think you're God.

Boooo!

Nunu

missingtime wrote: »

Ray Houghton is really really annoying, I dont know how that guy gets to have anything to do with football analysis.

He always has this superior grin on his small head.

Shut up Ray...you scored a poxy goal and did a weird somersault and you think your God.

Boooo!

That would be 2 poxy goals;) ...could have been 3 if we had beaten Belgium in that Play off.