Entitlement to British Citizenship

Hagar

Can a person born in the Republic of Ireland after 1st Jan 1949 claim British Citizenship by virtue of descent if both their parents were born in Dublin between 1925 and 1931?

Neither parent applied for a British passport, but would the right to hold a passport be the important factor rather than actually holding one.

Purely academic question, I'm not looking for one.

Jo King

Anybody born in Ireland before 1946 is entitled to dual Irish/British citzenship. It is therefroe possible to claim British citzenship by
descent from such persons.

Our man in Havana

It is not as simple as that. It is an extremely messy situation. See here for more information.

Hagar

I've read the Wiki entry but I don't feel Wiki is 100% reliable given it's open editing nature.
I was sort of hoping for an "Ex cathedra" type definitive answer.

johnnyskeleton

Hagar wrote: »

Can a person born in the Republic of Ireland after 1st Jan 1949 claim British Citizenship by virtue of descent if both their parents were born in Dublin between 1925 and 1931?

Why would anybody with Irish citizenship want British Citizenship? What possible benefit, other than declaring your fidelity to the English Queen, would they get?

Our man in Havana

Maybe people would like to declare their loyalty to the Queen. I know quite a few that would.

johnnyskeleton

Bond-007 wrote: »

Maybe people would like to declare their loyalty to the Queen [of the United Kingdom and Norther Ireland, (the definite article should only be used where speaking about a group of only 1, whereas there is a varied selection of foreign female monarchs throughout the world)]. I know quite a few that would.

If someone wants to be one of that particular person's loyal subjects and live under her rule, they should move to the UK and apply for naturalisation - wanting to live in Ireland (and use such Irish national treasures are boards.ie) and hold a British passport seems inconsistent to me.

Hagar

It's just a query Johnny don't get too worked up about it, I'm not jumping ship.

ambro25

johnnyskeleton wrote: »

If someone wants to be one of that particular person's loyal subjects and live under her rule, they should move to the UK and apply for naturalisation - wanting to live in Ireland (and use such Irish national treasures are boards.ie) and hold a British passport seems inconsistent to me.

Such someone wouldn't have to change their passport to move to the UK and abide by the national law/statutes thereof. The same way Brits wouldn't have to obtain an Irish passport to move to IE and abide by the national law/statutes thereof. Plenty of UK-based posters on Boards.ie btw. Welcome to the EU and the borderless information age

johnnyskeleton

ambro25 wrote: »

Such someone wouldn't have to change their passport to move to the UK and abide by the national law/statutes thereof. The same way Brits wouldn't have to obtain an Irish passport to move to IE and abide by the national law/statutes thereof. Plenty of UK-based posters on Boards.ie btw. Welcome to the EU and the borderless information age

I never said that someone would have to change their passport to move to the UK. I also fear that you did not read my first post:

johnnyskeleton wrote:

Why would anybody with Irish citizenship want British Citizenship? What possible benefit, other than declaring your fidelity to the English Queen, would they get?

pirelli

Hagar wrote: »

I've read the Wiki entry but I don't feel Wiki is 100% reliable given it's open editing nature.
I was sort of hoping for an "Ex cathedra" type definitive answer.

Is not the meaning of "Ex cathedra" an announcement made by the pope regarding something infallible in the christian doctrine, and or a seat of a bishop.

To answer your question I did ask my Mother and while she is not a bishop she does remember that the British couldnt get the our harbours during world war 2. I am not sure what that means myself but my mother also said "oh my God were not british citizens " and " no certainly not".

Hagar

Indeed it is. It is usually an unquestionable truth (to the faithful that is) or simply put, the correct answer.

ambro25

johnnyskeleton wrote:

I never said that someone would have to change their passport to move to the UK.

No, you said that they should move to the UK in order to get a UK passport (to which they may be entitled by rule of law, irrespective of where they are residing).

Fear not, I read your first post just fine: for all you know, f*ck all to do with the Queen. Which is why I thought useful to remind you that, were you (suppose IE) to emigrate to the UK, even if you are not concerned about British citizenship in the least, you would still abide by the Queen's rule all the same so long as you reside there.

johnnyskeleton

ambro25 wrote: »

No, you said that they should move to the UK in order to get a UK passport (to which they may be entitled by rule of law, irrespective of where they are residing).

Again, that is not what I said. In response to Bond-007's tongue in cheek answer to my question, I replied that if someone does want to pay homage to the Queen of the UK, they could do so by moving to the UK and applying for citizenship.

ambro25 wrote:

Fear not, I read your first post just fine: for all you know, f*ck all to do with the Queen. Which is why I thought useful to remind you that, were you (suppose IE) to emigrate to the UK, even if you are not concerned about British citizenship in the least, you would still abide by the Queen's rule all the same so long as you reside there.

If I understand you correctly, you are saying:
1) wanting British Citizenship has nothing to do with the Queen of the UK
2) any person who is within the territory of the UK lives under their Queen's rule.

If so, to 1) I agree with you, hence my rhetoric - I can't see why anybody who is entitled to Irish citizenship would want UK citizenship too, other than for political/identity purposes. As to 2), again I agree with you, hence in my second post you might see that I suggested that if someone wanted to live under the Queen of the UK's rule they might, among other things, move to the UK.

walshb

It's just a bloody query. Who cares about loyalty or nationalism or the Queen etc etc.
It's a simple question. Can an Irish person born before 1949 or is it 1946 claim a British passport. Even just to hang on the mantle piece. Who cares what it's for.....

Hagar

Nail on head. Just a question seeking an answer.

vector

johnnyskeleton wrote: »

Why would anybody with Irish citizenship want British Citizenship? What possible benefit, other than declaring your fidelity to the English Queen, would they get?

what benefits does a UK passport have over an Irish passport?

1) it makes you a "commonwealth citizen", and so allows, inter alia, a 6 month automatic tourist visa to New Zealand and certain other Commonwealth countires (that only offer 3 months to Irish passport holders)

2) an honorary knighthood can be "upgraded" to a full knighthood, for more information see Terry Wogan (born in Ireland, but prior to it become a republic, and thus entitled to a UK passport of some level, proabbly only "British Subject" - see wikipedia for the different levels)

Our man in Havana

walshb wrote: »

It's just a bloody query. Who cares about loyalty or nationalism or the Queen etc etc.
It's a simple question. Can an Irish person born before 1949 or is it 1946 claim a British passport. Even just to hang on the mantle piece. Who cares what it's for.....

Yes they can.

johnnyskeleton

Hagar wrote: »

Nail on head. Just a question seeking an answer.

Did you not already get your answer in the 1st reply?

vector wrote:

1) it makes you a "commonwealth citizen", and so allows, inter alia, a 6 month automatic tourist visa to New Zealand and certain other Commonwealth countires (that only offer 3 months to Irish passport holders)

Fair enough.

Our man in Havana

vector wrote: »

what benefits does a UK passport have over an Irish passport?

1) it makes you a "commonwealth citizen", and so allows, inter alia, a 6 month automatic tourist visa to New Zealand and certain other Commonwealth countires (that only offer 3 months to Irish passport holders)

2) an honorary knighthood can be "upgraded" to a full knighthood, for more information see Terry Wogan (born in Ireland, but prior to it become a republic, and thus entitled to a UK passport of some level, proabbly only "British Subject" - see wikipedia for the different levels)

A UK passport also offers visa free travel to some countries where Irish citizens require expensive and hard to get visas, one example is the UAE. In other cases it offers longer visa free travel to certain countries.

vector

Bond-007 wrote: »

A UK passport also offers visa free travel to some countries where Irish citizens require expensive and hard to get visas, one example is the UAE. In other cases it offers longer visa free travel to certain countries.

I think we can trust James Bond, he has travelled the globe on his UK Passport

Mr. Incognito

Ring the British embassy or go to their website. All info on citizenship is there.

I think we can trust James Bond, he has travelled the globe on his UK Passport

Yes and everywhere he went people tried to KILL him.

Gobán Saor

Those who anticipate being required to surrender a passport might find it handy to have an alternative passport available which will permit travel to a country which does not have an extradition treaty with Ireland.

Our man in Havana

And those countries are very hard to find.

pirelli

4. A person who, immediately before 1 January 1983, was a British subject without citizenship, a British subject under section 2 of the British Nationality Act 1948 or a woman registered as a British subject under section 1 of the British Nationality Act 1965, automatically became a British subject under the British Nationality Act 1981 on 1 January 1983. From 1 January 1983, the following people can become British subjects:

citizens of Ireland who were citizens of Eire and British subjects immediately before 1 January 1949 (when the British Nationality Act 1948 came into force) - by making a claim to have remained British subjects;
children under 18 - by being registered if the Home Secretary agrees;
women who, immediately before 1 January 1983, were married to British subjects and who are still married - by being registered as British subjects (provided they applied for registration before 1 January 1988).

http://www.ind.homeoffice.gov.uk/applying/nationality/advice/bn12

I got the following information from the following link.

The question is and I havn't had time to check the entire site as its huge is if my parents were theoretically british subjects then does that make me as the sibling a british subject and does a british subject get a passport.

johnnyskeleton

Bond-007 wrote: »

And those countries are very hard to find.

St. Kitts & Nevis, Dominican Republic, Myanma, Zimbabwae, are the most likely candidates.

I'd move to an island in the pacific which doesn't belong to anybody and then make my own country with no extradition treaties.

Our man in Havana

St. Kitts & Nevis, Dominican Republic, Myanma, Zimbabwae, are the most likely candidates.

Handy to know that!

johnnyskeleton

Bond-007 wrote: »

Handy to know that!

I'm not certain of those, but they would be my best guesses. Certainly, there would be great difficulties in being extradited from them.

There's a list of the countries with which Ireland has extradition treaties in Michael Forde's book on Extradition. If you're ever in a tight spot, it's good to check first...

Tails142

I doubt it pirelli

If whay you say was the case; then anyone whose parents were born before 1949, could then claim to be british citizens...

where would that ever end, grandparents? 3 generations later? etc...

IF they had have claimed to be british subjects then yes... if they DO and become british subjects, then as their descendent... possibly...

If they HAVE NOT but could have... doubtful

Brendan552004

Great Thread,

Where does it leave me:

Born 31/3/1949, worked and studied in UK 1967/1972, 2 children born there, married to Irish subject, Father born Ireland 1919.

I have two sons with dual Irish/US citizenship, they carry 2 passports, use the Irish Passport going to Ireland use the US passport returning.

Mother in Law worked in England for 10 years, she gets a British pension now, she lives in Ireland. She also has an Irish pension.

There may be more to this nationallity issue than meets the eye, there may be financial rewards?

johnnyskeleton

Brendan552004 wrote: »

Where does it leave me:

Born 31/3/1949, worked and studied in UK 1967/1972, 2 children born there, married to Irish subject, Father born Ireland 1919.

Pick a country, any country.

Brendan552004 wrote:

There may be more to this nationallity issue than meets the eye, there may be financial rewards?

I think you have to work in the other country to get the pension. Probably something to do with PRSI stamps or the like.

Brendan552004

I paid the stamps, 2 pensions, not bad!!!

Victor

Brendan552004 wrote: »

I paid the stamps, 2 pensions, not bad!!!

I'm sure there are treaties that cover this on a bilateral and multi-lateral basis.

EdgarAllenPoo

As a British citizen (and by extension commonwealth citizen) are you not entitled to move to and work in countries like Australia and Canada without all the visa shenanigans an Irish citizen has to go through? If I remember right that also entitles you to live (or declare that you reside) in certain countries to avoid tax.

Personally if it applied to me (and I think it might) I'd have the passport just so I could go to Canada and never have to come back here.

pirelli

Before his shock arrest last week the 68-year-old ranted to a pal how he "hated" Ireland and was applying for a British passport. Irish citizens born in Britain before 1949 with parents born before 1922 are entitled to a UK passport. Dutchy was born in 1939.

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qn4161/is_20070506/ai_n19061534