Would you like to see the death of religion.

JimiTime

Yes - through proactive secularism

Son Goku wrote: »

No to be honest, I wouldn't. I'm actually fond of churches and a lot of religious thought, probably because of my interest in medieval history. Besides if it makes people happy, it doesn't really matter.

What I would like to see an end to is:
1. An unyielding opposition to plain facts.
2. Opposition to things which only help people's lives such as contraception.*

Religion isn't the only source of these things; however I think it is the main contributor to number 2. However even then it is only the very religious.

*I particularly don't like objection to contraception as it is one of the foundations of the liberation of women.

So you wouldn't be happy. ok. Would you actually be sad at its demise? Or is it a case of, its not that I'd be happy or sad??

Son Goku

JimiTime wrote: »

So you wouldn't be happy. ok. Would you actually be sad at its demise? Or is it a case of, its not that I'd be happy or sad??

A bit sad, it is the basis of a lot of imagery and big part of our history.

Dades

Yes - through proactive secularism

robindch wrote: »

I'm in Jakarta at the moment...

Okay now I'm convinced you work for the CIA... Middle East one week, Indonesia the next...

Hivemind187

Yes, except for my religion.

Dades (The artist formally known as the Atheist) has a point Son Goku, do you work for the CIA? And if so ... can I have a job?

5uspect

Yes - through proactive secularism

Hivemind187 wrote: »

Dades (The artist formally known as the Atheist)...

Don't you mean Daisy?;)

karen3212

Yes - through natural causes

I would like religions to stop thinking that their God or rules are right and all the others are wrong. I really don't like it when they look down on each other's beliefs, each religion that needs changing has to be changed from within. Sometimes I see people outside of one religion critisize another religion's teachings and imo it never works. I don't think religion will disappear, I think it will evolve though, and hopefully most religions will say 'who knows' more.

Religion itself doesn't bother me, the arrogance or divisiveness of some within religions really annoy me.

PDN

Not all beliefs - just fundamentalist stuff.

karen3212 wrote: »

Sometimes I see people outside of one religion critisize another religion's teachings and imo it never works.

That pretty well describes this forum doesn't it?

Atheists believe that they are right and that all the religions are wrong. Therefore they are just as arrogant as any theist who thinks he/she is right and all other religions are wrong. Agnostics, of course, are able to say, "Who knows?".

So, if I read you correct, Karen, you are saying that we all need to be a bit more agnostic and that religious certainty (including atheism) is arrogance?

I certainly agree with you that criticising another religion's teachings doesn't work - in fact it almost invariably puts people on the defensive and makes them more entrenched in their opinions. This whole thing came up on another thread here on the A&A forum recently (the one on respecting people's beliefs). Some posters were arguing that you should have no respect for other's beliefs. Indeed religious people were accused of being too respectful to one another.

Hivemind187

Yes, except for my religion.

PDN wrote: »

That pretty well describes this forum doesn't it?

Atheists believe that they are right and that all the religions are wrong. Therefore they are just as arrogant as any theist who thinks he/she is right and all other religions are wrong. Agnostics, of course, are able to say, "Who knows?".

.

It amazes me how you flip flop PDN, one minute sayng that Christianty is right and the next critising Atheists for judging religions to be wrong based on evidence and reason. tut tut.

Any excuse to say "Atheism bad" eh?

Conar

Yes - through natural causes

I'd certainly not pore out a little liquer for my dead religions.

PDN I think the difference between most Atheists and most devoutly religious is that if a God did appear tomorrow and give us all the proof neccessary that he/she existed than we'd be willing to admit we had been wrong..... if the opposite happened (not sure how to quanify or put it) and the definitive proof of no existence of God were discovered then most devoutly religious would simply call it a test of faith.

That is what makes us appear arrogant.
We believe in science and evidence, not tales of yore and the like.

PDN

Not all beliefs - just fundamentalist stuff.

Hivemind187 wrote: »

It amazes me how you flip flop PDN, one minute sayng that Christianty is right and the next critising Atheists for judging religions to be wrong based on evidence and reason. tut tut.

Any excuse to say "Atheism bad" eh?

Maybe you should try reading my posts a bit more carefully. I'm simply pointing out that Christians and atheists should be judged by similar standards. If Christians are arrogant for believing that they are right and others are wrong then so are atheists.

I'm sorry if that concept upsets you. Fairness often does that to people.

PDN

Not all beliefs - just fundamentalist stuff.

Conar wrote: »

I'd certainly not pore out a little liquer for my dead religions.

PDN I think the difference between most Atheists and most devoutly religious is that if a God did appear tomorrow and give us all the proof neccessary that he/she existed than we'd be willing to admit we had been wrong..... if the opposite happened (not sure how to quanify or put it) and the definitive proof of no existence of God were discovered then most devoutly religious would simply call it a test of faith.

That is what makes us appear arrogant.
We believe in science and evidence, not tales of yore and the like.

So you are basing an argument on 2 hypothetical sets of situations and your imagined outcomes in those situations.

OK, if that works for you.

It sounds more to me like you're saying that Christians are arrogant because they think they are right, but that atheists aren't arrogant because you know you are right.

Conar

Yes - through natural causes

PDN wrote: »

So you are basing an argument on 2 hypothetical sets of situations and your imagined outcomes in those situations.

OK, if that works for you.

It sounds more to me like you're saying that Christians are arrogant because they think they are right, but that atheists aren't arrogant because you know you are right.

Not at all.
Christians admit that their religion requires faith.
Faith implies a lack of evidence.

There are some elements of science, theoretical sciences that would require faith if you were to believe in them fully, yet people generally don't and continue to call them theories.

There is no realy evidence of a God, so Atheists see no reason to believe in one.
This is why religious people continuously call atheists arrogant.

You'll probably have issues with me paraphrasing Richard Dawkins but to use his celestial teapot argument.
No one can disprove that there isn't a celestial teapot in orbit around our planet.
It would simply be too small to detect and therefore to disprove.
Would you call me arrigant for dismissing the theory of a celestial teapot?

Dades

Yes - through proactive secularism

PDN wrote: »

That pretty well describes this forum doesn't it?

Atheists believe that they are right and that all the religions are wrong. Therefore they are just as arrogant as any theist who thinks he/she is right and all other religions are wrong.

The difference is the basis on which both theists and atheists claim other religions are wrong. Atheists believe they are all man-made due to, amongst other things, a consistent lack of any evidence for their truth. Every brand of theist rejects all other religions as wrong on the basis that their ancient scriptures hold more weight. If I had to label one process of thought as arrogant it would be the latter.

Atheists don't claim to have the answers to the big questions, just that nobody else does either.

JimiTime

Yes - through proactive secularism

karen3212 wrote:

I would like religions to stop thinking that their God or rules are right and all the others are wrong. I really don't like it when they look down on each other's beliefs, each religion that needs changing has to be changed from within. Sometimes I see people outside of one religion critisize another religion's teachings and imo it never works. I don't think religion will disappear, I think it will evolve though, and hopefully most religions will say 'who knows' more.

Religion itself doesn't bother me, the arrogance or divisiveness of some within religions really annoy me.

Ok. So if the above does not change, and religion continues thinking its right and you're wrong. Would you like to see it fade away?

JimiTime

Yes - through proactive secularism

Son Goku wrote: »

A bit sad, it is the basis of a lot of imagery and big part of our history.

I have to say, I do find this strange. You'd like people to continue being deluded? Believing in a being that doesn't exist? I'm surprised you wouldn't want them to finally realise that science is our best chance.

Conar

Yes - through natural causes

JimiTime wrote: »

I have to say, I do find this strange. You'd like people to continue being deluded? Believing in a being that doesn't exist? I'm surprised you wouldn't want them to finally realise that science is our best chance.

Exactly, the demise of the Egyptians didn't exactly stop us from appreciating the pyramids and their culture etc.
Religion has played a large enough part in our history to not be completely forgotten.

Tim Robbins

PDN wrote: »

That pretty well describes this forum doesn't it?

Atheists believe that they are right and that all the religions are wrong. Therefore they are just as arrogant as any theist who thinks he/she is right and all other religions are wrong. Agnostics, of course, are able to say, "Who knows?".

So, if I read you correct, Karen, you are saying that we all need to be a bit more agnostic and that religious certainty (including atheism) is arrogance?

I think there's word play going on here, PDN.
I believe I am right. However, I don't know if I am right therefore I am not arrogant.
Arrogant Christians believe they are right, act like they know they are right as they say "I know the truth".
They do not differentiate between belief and knowledge.

Zombrex

PDN wrote: »

That pretty well describes this forum doesn't it?

Atheists believe that they are right and that all the religions are wrong. Therefore they are just as arrogant as any theist who thinks he/she is right and all other religions are wrong. Agnostics, of course, are able to say, "Who knows?".

Well that is kinda like saying the person who thinks Kennedy was shot by Lee Harvey Oswald is just as arrogant as the person who thinks Kennedy was shot by a rouge secret government agency that works out of Area 51 and uses alien technology.

The difference between an theist and an atheist is that the theist believes in fantastical supernatural entities and events.

I wouldn't call it equally arrogant to not believe in fantastical supernatural entities and events. For example believing that someone didn't walk on water is not as arrogant as believing he did, since everything we know about humans, water and gravity tells us that people can't walk on water.

Dades

Yes - through proactive secularism

You only have to watch the documentary Baraka to see how our world and peoples have been shaped by religion and superstition. For those who haven't it's an incredible look at different cultures from every part of the globe. You would have to be pretty cold not be moved by some of the scenes played out.

So yes, superstition and ritual would be missed on many levels, but the reality is this doesn't validate any of them.

queenlex

Sleepy wrote: »

I have to admit I think it would be a good thing. One less excuse for mankind to wage war on each other and it could only help further our understanding of the universe we live in.

It doesnt seem to do anything else but give excuses for this kind of terrible stuff. I believe everyone can have morals and know what is right and wrong without needing a religion despite what some religious people would have you think

Dades

Yes - through proactive secularism

Tim Robbins wrote: »

I think there's word play going on here, PDN.
Arrogant Christians believe they are right, act like they know they are right as they say "I know the truth".

There's word play going on there too, Tim.
Arrogant atheists are also arrogant.

Sleepy

Tigrrrr wrote: »

Firstly, I'd just like to mention that I don't adhere to any religion whatsoever.

Secondly, no offence, beacuse that is a common opinion, it's just that it's completely daft. Look, religion is weird. Sometimes to the point that it's comical. But would removing it make the world more peaceful?

No, of course not. Nor does keeping it make the world more peaceful, despite what believers say.

People are people. They use any excuse in the book to kill, maim, rape, steal and make corrupt. They use video games to do it, skin colour, ethnicity, they even use democracy to do it! Need we ban democracy? Video games?

Lets not kid ourselves here. Getting rid of religion isn't getting rid of one less excuse, another equally bizarre "excuse" would be crafted in its place. Religion isn't the problem. People are the problem.

You think that religion is currently obstructing the advancement of scientific knowledge at its frontiers in any realistic way? I mean, sure some crazies want to teach creationism in some incest-riddled Florida backwater, but it hardly amounts to some crazed nun pushing Stephen Hawking's wheelchair-slash-voice synthesizer down a stairs.

OK, let me ask you a question. Why are jihadists prepared to lay down their lives in suicide bombings? Do you think these people actually want to die? Would you not agree that their fanatical belief that their actions are the path to a better place in an afterlife have a factor in their decision?

Would you not agree that it's quite possible we're losing some brilliant minds to the creationist movements in the US? Some of those who have been brainwashed since birth into believing this nonsense are, in fact, incredibly intelligent people. They may not have the mindset to break free of their brainwashing but that doesn't render them gormless, just mis-educated.

Nowhere in my post did I say that I thought an end to religion would mean an end to war. I purposely worded it as 'one less excuse' as I believe it would reduce the capacity for people to be coerced into going to war.

Should my freedoms be taken in the morning I'll be among the first to resist under arms and I don't think that I'm in any way unique in that. I will not, however, give any weight to an argument that [insert deity's name here] wants me to kill others for crimes against his moral code. Now, if everyone thought like that, you wouldn't have jihads, inquisitions or crusades. Maybe all those that are susceptible to being convinced to go to war for religious reasons would simply go to war under different pretexts but I think that's unlikely to be honest. There are few things as convincing to someone as demonstrating to them that something they have blind faith in (and in essence, all faith is blind) demands that they do so.

Tim Robbins

Dades wrote: »

There's word play going on there too, Tim.
Arrogant atheists are also arrogant.

You know all about word play "Dades".

Seriously, imo "arrogant" atheists know the difference between belief and knowledge they just seem to think they are more intelligent and anyone who believes is stupid e.g. Dawkins.

Scofflaw

Yes - through proactive secularism

I'm arrogant. It doesn't make me sure I'm right though - that's stupidity, not arrogance.

cordially,
Scofflaw

Zombrex

Tigrrrr wrote: »

Lets not kid ourselves here. Getting rid of religion isn't getting rid of one less excuse, another equally bizarre "excuse" would be crafted in its place. Religion isn't the problem. People are the problem.

No the problem is how people are manipulated into doing bad things. And religion is one of the biggest manipulators out there. It isn't the only one, but it is a big one.

People seem to under estimate the hold religious dogma has over some people. They shouldn't though, because you only have to look at what religion offers to see why it could have such a powerful hold over someone.

Religion works by convincing someone that religion can solve all the persons problems, including offering them paradise after death, but they must follow and support the religion. The 18 year olds blowing themselves up in Iraq aren't old enough to understand the complex politics enough to decide "I'm going to die for this". They are dying because the religious leaders they follow are telling them that the religion requires this from them. And if they want all the things that the religion promises then they follow this.

Anyone who says that that isn't a major manipulating factor that can be used for great evil, is just kidding themselves.

PDN

Not all beliefs - just fundamentalist stuff.

Wicknight wrote: »

Well that is kinda like saying the person who thinks Kennedy was shot by Lee Harvey Oswald is just as arrogant as the person who thinks Kennedy was shot by a rouge secret government agency that works out of Area 51 and uses alien technology.

The difference between an theist and an atheist is that the theist believes in fantastical supernatural entities and events.

I wouldn't call it equally arrogant to not believe in fantastical supernatural entities and events. For example believing that someone didn't walk on water is not as arrogant as believing he did, since everything we know about humans, water and gravity tells us that people can't walk on water.

The issue of arrogance is nothing whatsoever to do with whether the object of your belief is 'fantastical' or not. That may raise issues of gullibilty, credibility etc, but not arrogance.

I know a Mormon who believes the most fantastic things, but he is extremely humble. He may believe that I am wrong in my beliefs, but he is happy to discuss our differences as equals. On the other hand you get very sceptical people who are extremely arrogant. I don't believe Christians or atheists are particularly prone to arrogance - you get arrogant people in all groups.

Of course anyone who posts on here has to be a bit arrogant. Do you really think your opinion is important enough to warrant you spending the time to post it here?

Son Goku

JimiTime wrote: »

I have to say, I do find this strange. You'd like people to continue being deluded? Believing in a being that doesn't exist?

I don't think it really matters and it helps a good deal of people. It also ties into culture. Christianity is a big part of what made Europe what it is today. Similarly most Asian countries have cultures that to a great extent are formed by their native religions. You have to remember that most people aren't as analytic about religion as we are on these forums; it's just another part of their week.

JimiTime wrote: »

I'm surprised you wouldn't want them to finally realise that science is our best chance.

Science is an intellectual interest for those who enjoy it and has lifestyle benefits in application for those who don't. I don't think science has message you can get behind.

That said I think people might benefit from understanding Science in two ways:
1. Seeing just how strange the world is around them. I think knowing a bit of QM might let you see an aspect of nature you didn't know existed and it really broadens your mind. Stuff like the Stern–Gerlach experiment or the Aharonov-Bohm effect are some of the greatest discoveries of the 20th century. I think a modern educated person should know these just as they know Picasso, Coetzee or Henry VIII. Unfortunately they're still a bit too weird to be absorbed into general knowledge.

2. Knowing a bit about science is good, because it allows one to appreciate new discoveries better. This is important because often innovations are blocked simply because people don't really understand science.
An example is the many helpful technologies coming out five years later than they should of simply because people misunderstand the word nuclear. Another example is biomedical research loses a large pool of potential researchers because of people who aren't educated about evolution.

In relation to both these points it's unfortunate that what most people know of as science is really closer to how it was in the 18th/19th Century. A mainly European artefact of the enlightenment, mixed heavily with the philosophy of determinism and rationality. This is very different in practice and attitude from the "new" Science of the 20th/21st Century.

Dades

Yes - through proactive secularism

PDN wrote: »

Of course anyone who posts on here has to be a bit arrogant. Do you really think your opinion is important enough to warrant you spending the time to post it here?

We post here because we have no church to go to and are insecure. Why do you?

PDN

Not all beliefs - just fundamentalist stuff.

Dades wrote: »

We post here because we have no church to go to and are insecure. Why do you?

I like messing with your heads.

Tim Robbins

PDN wrote: »

I like messing with your heads.

PDN, I think you're a closet atheist.