206th Merseyside Derby

Fwaggle · 21-10-2007 5:01pm

~Rebel~ wrote: »

Of course people can say negative things, but IMO they should back them up too. Challenging the ref (especially in the way it was done in this case, not intimidating or crowding, merely protesting, on his own, as happens 50times a game) and committing fouls are things i have never seen referenced as cheating before.

Yeah, fair enough and as I said before I don't think Liverpool cheated. Maybe using the word "cheated" in my initial post caused the problem by being too provocative or something, and that's not what I was getting at.

~Rebel~ · 21-10-2007 5:07pm

Fwaggle wrote:

Yeah, fair enough and as I said before I don't think Liverpool cheated. Maybe using the word "cheated" in my initial post caused the problem by being too provocative or something, and that's not what I was getting at.

which brings me back to "whats your point". If you dont think anyone cheated, why are you asking Liverpool fans why other fans would think Liverpool had cheated.

I just dont see the point! you actively agree that the Liverpool fans are right, but you want them to explain why some people think they're wrong. Its just madness! Madness!

Fwaggle · 21-10-2007 5:12pm

~Rebel~ wrote: »

which brings me back to "whats your point". If you dont think anyone cheated, why are you asking Liverpool fans why other fans would think Liverpool had cheated.

I just dont see the point! you actively agree that the Liverpool fans are right, but you want them to explain why some people think they're wrong. Its just madness! Madness!

I repeat:

I was asking El Rabitos a question regarding his post. I don't see what the problem is. The jist of his post was that the people complaining were bitter Man U or Everton fans and I was asking what he thought about the people who didn't fall into this bracket. Maybe I didn't phrase it properly or something but I thought it was clear enough?

I didn't ask Liverpool fans either - I just asked El Rabitos

~Rebel~ · 21-10-2007 5:24pm

Fwaggle wrote: »

I repeat:

I was asking El Rabitos a question regarding his post. I don't see what the problem is. The jist of his post was that the people complaining were bitter Man U or Everton fans and I was asking what he thought about the people who didn't fall into this bracket. Maybe I didn't phrase it properly or something but I thought it was clear enough?

I didn't ask Liverpool fans either - I just asked El Rabitos

In that cause you can just read 'fan' for 'fans' in my last post.

I would imagine Its just their opinion, which in your opinion (and El Rabitos, and mine) is wrong.

Dont think theres anymore to it..

Third_Echelon · 22-10-2007 10:50am

A Dub in Glasgo wrote: »

Just watched the highlights on MotD

What a disgrace that referee was

1. Both Gerrard & Hibbert were pulling each others jerseys. The offence that led Gerrard to go down was on the line or outside the box. The ref then allows himself to be influenced by Gerrard in the most obvious way

2. Kuyt should have been sent off with the most obvious kung fu two footed flying tackle imaginable, yet the ref saw yellow

3. How the ref managed to miss the foul in the box at the end is beyind me.

A disgraceful performance from the ref

Well summed up there.... I was at the game and the crowd definitely felt the same way, but in a bit more vocal fashion as you can imagine

I was behind the goal where the hibbert/gerrard incident took place, right in line where it happened.. To me it looked like gerrard made the most of it. The fans obviously weren't too thrilled about that, but when the card changed from yellow to red, to say they were incensed is an understatement.... I could not believe it...

Kuyt was very lucky not to be sent off. I have definitely seen those type of tackles resulting in a sending off. Even kuyt himself admitted that he was very lukcy:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport2/hi/football/teams/l/liverpool/7055259.stm

Lescott got pulled down in the box. End of. It was a stonewall penalty and it wasn't given.

I think you can see how everton fans thought that the ref was a bit more biased towards liverpool. He gave us absolutely nothing. Pretty much every decision went liverpool's way and at the end of the day, his bad decisions influenced the result.

We were definitely getting a lot of joy out of lescott up the left in the first half and it would have been interesting to see a second half of 11 vs 11. Obviously playing with 10, the opposition has more of the ball, but I'm proud of the everton lads. They worked their socks off making up for the extra man...

Yakubu though is so lazy its unbelievable... Actually seeing him 'live' did I realise what other evertonians were saying on forums etc about his work rate. Hopefully moyes instills some 'passion' in him...

I thought we at least deserved a point out of it. To lose in such a cruel fashion as a last minute penalty is always a kick in the sack, but hopefully we can turn liverpool over in March...

ziggy · 22-10-2007 12:12pm

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jank · 22-10-2007 2:05pm

I wonder will Alan Green have his say on the match, do doubt saying that there is too much presure on refs nowadays and they cant get it right all the time, contrast that to his reaction after chelsea..

Third_Echelon · 22-10-2007 2:33pm

jank wrote: »

I wonder will Alan Green have his say on the match, do doubt saying that there is too much presure on refs nowadays and they cant get it right all the time, contrast that to his reaction after chelsea..

Don't get me started about that individual :mad:

Third_Echelon · 22-10-2007 2:38pm

FA take action against Clattenburg?

http://www.skysports.com/story/0,19528,11095_2817855,00.html

No game for Clattenburg
Referee will not officiate Premier League fixture

Mark Clattenburg will not referee a Premier League match this weekend in the wake of his display in the Merseyside derby.

The Professional Game Match Board, who oversee referees and make appointments for top-flight games, confirmed that Clattenburg would not be involved in the latest round of fixtures.

Everton manager David Moyes was fiercely critical of the official's display at Goodison Park, where he awarded Liverpool two penalties and dismissed Tony Hibbert and Phil Neville.

Moyes was also unimpressed that Clattenburg only showed Dirk Kuyt a yellow card for a reckless two-footed lunge on Neville, and that Everton were denied a penalty in the closing seconds when Joleon Lescott appeared to be wrestled to the floor by Jamie Carragher.

Liverpool came from behind to win the match 2-1 with Kuyt converting both penalties after Sami Hyypia's own goal had given the home side the lead

kryogen · 22-10-2007 2:42pm

now i havent read this thread so maybe its been brought up already, but....... do any of you find it odd that liverpool got two penalties (not talking about the legitamacy of them) and everton were denied what seems to me, 2 clear penalties, can anyone also explain to me how dirk kuyt managed to evade a red card for trying to cut neville in half? was it because neville somehow managed to get out of the way?? does the intent to break another players leg not constituted dangerous play and deserve to have the player sent from the field of play?? if you wan t argue the intent, look at a replay first please, ask yourself what exactly was on kuyts mind when his feet were almost level with nevilles waist while kuyt was almost sideways in the air. was it really the ball? that he had no chance of getting near cause he was far too high

Mr Alan · 22-10-2007 3:00pm

his intention was to block the ball, not tackle neville.

the rest of your points have already been addressed i'm sure, just read the thread.

kryogen · 22-10-2007 3:08pm

please, for me, look at the replay again, from the side angle, look at where his eyes are, look at where his feet are. im not arguing this one, its plain to see really, it was remeniscient of cantonas lunge into the crowd, where im sure as a united fan his intent was only to ask the man to stop shouting at him :rolleyes:

Sizzler · 22-10-2007 3:12pm

Clattenburg makes two clangers and he gets a weekend off , nice work if you can get it :rolleyes:

Mr Alan · 22-10-2007 3:14pm

I aint saying it wasnt a mental tackle.
Just as requested by yourself as to wat was Kuyt trying to do....i'm simply pointing out that, he was not trying to do Neville in, he was not trying to win the ball at Nevilles feet, he was trying to block it as Neville was clearing it. It was not malicious. Kuyt is REALLLLY not like that as a player.
It probably should have been a red card because it was somewhat reckless though.

kryogen · 22-10-2007 3:21pm

i agree that hes not a dirty player, i do. i just think that this challenge warranted a sending off, then again its mark clattenburg, no matches for him next weekend as a result lol

Mr Alan · 22-10-2007 3:24pm

I agree, it probably warranted a red card-just outlining why clattenberg might not have seen it as nescessary.

before this weekend wasnt Clattenberg widely regarded as the best ref in the league? Who'd wanna be a ref!?!?!?! ref number 1 to public enemy number 1 in 90 minutes

Sizzler · 22-10-2007 4:05pm

Mr Alan wrote: »

before this weekend wasnt Clattenberg widely regarded as the best ref in the league? Who'd wanna be a ref!?!?!?! ref number 1 to public enemy number 1 in 90 minutes

Who said that

I always thought Steve Bennett / Howard Webb claimed that mantle.

_blank_ · 22-10-2007 4:17pm

Sizzler wrote: »

Who said that I always thought Steve Bennett / Howard Webb claimed that mantle.

Howard Webb is a brutal ref.

best ref is Uriah Rennie. He takes no shít.

Mr Alan · 22-10-2007 4:36pm

But he thinks ya can be offside from a throw

x in the city · 22-10-2007 4:56pm

That ref saturday was a disgrace, no doubt about it, that sort of crap would never happen say Man Utd or Chelski, but poor 'lesser' teams like Everton suffer, and If that happened united you could bet your last euro they would prob get a rematch. FACT.

I knew well he would get banned for that performance and i was right (the ref).

Mr Alan · 22-10-2007 5:02pm

x in the city wrote: »

If that happened united you could bet your last euro they would prob get a rematch. FACT.

Dont be so stupid

x in the city · 22-10-2007 5:10pm

I am not being silly, did this sort of nonsense ever happen the BIGGER teams in all fairness, Alex Ferguson would kick up an almighty ruffle if it did. because he can. I am not bitter, just saying the truth.

redzerdrog · 22-10-2007 5:24pm

the only mistake the ref made was not awarding everton a peno at the end and its the sort thing that happens every match....

MrJoeSoap · 22-10-2007 5:28pm

DesF wrote: »

best ref is Uriah Rennie. He takes no shít.

You can't be serious. Worst referee I have ever seen!

Sizzler · 22-10-2007 5:30pm

DesF wrote: »

Howard Webb is a brutal ref.

best ref is Uriah Rennie. He takes no shít.

http://the-referee.com/2007/08/09/referee-profile-uriah-rennie/

Can't be accused of not giving bookings :eek:

ziggy · 22-10-2007 5:36pm

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Necronomicon · 22-10-2007 5:47pm

Apparently, Clattenburg's withdrawal from Prem matches this weekend is because of UEFA Cup commitments, not punishment. (So say SSN)

StickyMcGinty · 22-10-2007 5:49pm

its on 365 aswell

This time former top referee Hackett is staying quiet on the issue, although it must be pointed out there are 19 top referees belonging to the elite group who are appointed to Premier League matches which, of course, number a maximum of just 10 every weekend.

And Clattenburg, who was promoted to the elite list three years ago when he was just 30, is also in charge of the Lokomotiv Moscow-Atletico Madrid clash in the UEFA Cup on Thursday - another reason why Premier League referees are sometimes given the following weekend off.

Melion · 22-10-2007 5:59pm

Clattenburg is the best referee in the premiership, no doubt about that. He had a bit of a 'mare this weekend. Cant understand why everyone is jumping on his back though. Lescott surely made a bit of a meal of the contact at the end, he was pulling at Carra aswell.

And no, im not saying Gerrard didnt make a meal of his

county · 22-10-2007 6:05pm

Melion wrote: »

Clattenburg is the best referee in the premiership, no doubt about that. He had a bit of a 'mare this weekend. Cant understand why everyone is jumping on his back though. Lescott surely made a bit of a meal of the contact at the end, he was pulling at Carra aswell.

And no, im not saying Gerrard didnt make a meal of his

Clattenburg had a bad game fair enough but to say lescott made a meal of the tackle is as bad as Benitez saying he dived,it was a stone wall peno

Utopia Parkway · 22-10-2007 6:08pm

ziggy wrote: »

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Saw Jeff Winter on Sky earlier and he said he would have given a yellow card too. He said the challenge was reckless but Kuyt didn't make any contact with the player so said he couldn't have given a red card for it.

As for the decisions in the game itself I though Hibbert had to get a red. He was last man and had a fistful of Gerrard's jersey before sending him tumbling. You could argue that the initial foul was just outside the box I guess but it was very close.

Obviously Neville had to go. No question about that.

Carragher and Lescott? Well I've seen them given although personally I thought they both had a hold of each other. I think Lescott let himself go over easily (Carragher said afterwards that he "crumpled to the turf") but Carragher was dicing with death as he did have a hold of him.

ziggy · 22-10-2007 6:34pm

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~Rebel~ · 22-10-2007 6:43pm

ziggy wrote: »

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Completely unfair and irrelevant comparison.

I would imagine, from the refs decision and Winters comments that it runs as follows;

What the ref has to decide is if he was trying to hurt the player or was just accidentally reckless.

If there was intent to hurt the player (in the opinion of the ref), then missing the ball and man wouldn't matter.

If there isn't intent to hurt the player (in the opinion of the ref), and there is no contact with anyone, then its a yellow for a reckless challenge.

If there isn't intent to hurt the player and there IS contact, Red Card.

ziggy · 22-10-2007 7:00pm

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Guy:Incognito · 22-10-2007 7:04pm

ziggy wrote: »

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How do you figure?

Where were his feet and studs? His legs were bent at the knees and his feet pulled in under him. He had no intention of doing Neville. If he did he was plenty close that if his legs were stretched his studs would have gone straight into Neville and broke him up badly.

x in the city wrote: »

That ref saturday was a disgrace, no doubt about it, that sort of crap would never happen say Man Utd or Chelski, but poor 'lesser' teams like Everton suffer, and If that happened united you could bet your last euro they would prob get a rematch. FACT.

I knew well he would get banned for that performance and i was right (the ref).

A rematch. HAHAAAHAH. When has there ever been a rematch for anything in the league, never mind a couple of dodgy refereeing decisions.

Anyway, your right, this sort of thing would never happen in a game like, say, Liverpool - Chelsea at Anfield.

Tusky · 22-10-2007 7:11pm

x in the city wrote: »

That ref saturday was a disgrace, no doubt about it, that sort of crap would never happen say Man Utd or Chelski, but poor 'lesser' teams like Everton suffer, and If that happened united you could bet your last euro they would prob get a rematch. FACT.

I knew well he would get banned for that performance and i was right (the ref).

My nomination for most idiotic post of the month...or possibly year.

x in the city wrote: »

I am not being silly, did this sort of nonsense ever happen the BIGGER teams in all fairness, Alex Ferguson would kick up an almighty ruffle if it did. because he can. I am not bitter, just saying the truth.

What about Liverpool - Chelsea about 6 weeks ago ? Yeah...keep 'saying' the truth amigo.

Mr Alan · 22-10-2007 7:11pm

anyone else think its hilarious that Neville/Moyes/Stubbs/the fans going on about how little Everton couldnt get any decisions against the mighty liverpool/Utd/Chelsea but the exact same people went ****ing ape**** when rafa refered to em as a small club last year?

PHB · 22-10-2007 8:30pm

If that happened united you could bet your last euro they would prob get a rematch. FACT.

Hey, remember that time Mourinho won the CL with Porto, remember how Scholes had a perfectly good goal disallowed. These things help the big teams too, it's just, the big teams normally do enough to win despite them.

Nunu · 22-10-2007 10:44pm

PHB wrote: »

Hey, remember that time Mourinho won the CL with Porto, remember how Scholes had a perfectly good goal disallowed. These things help the big teams too, it's just, the big teams normally do enough to win despite them.

100% right.
I'm always saying this myself, to counter the ridiculous argument that the 'big teams' get all the important decisions.

Tusky · 22-10-2007 11:31pm

ziggy wrote: »

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It wasnt a tackle though, he was trying to block the pass. It could have been a red but I think it would be harsh.

At the end of the day -

Kuyt is a nice guy, he's not a dirty player and this is well known by all

There was no intent to hurt the player even though it was reckless

There was no contact

= Yellow

PHB wrote: »

Hey, remember that time Mourinho won the CL with Porto, remember how Scholes had a perfectly good goal disallowed. These things help the big teams too, it's just, the big teams normally do enough to win despite them.

Very good point. I suppose when decisions go against big teams they will often still be able to get a result but when a decision goes against a small team (when playing against a bigger team) it will more than likely mean they have lost...thus the bitterness

An Citeog · 22-10-2007 11:32pm

Stekelly wrote: »

When has there ever been a rematch for anything in the league, never mind a couple of dodgy refereeing decisions.

That time Kanu scored for Arsenal against Sheffield United. It was in the cup though. But it still counts!

DSB · 22-10-2007 11:39pm

x in the city wrote: »

That ref saturday was a disgrace, no doubt about it, that sort of crap would never happen say Man Utd or Chelski, but poor 'lesser' teams like Everton suffer, and If that happened united you could bet your last euro they would prob get a rematch. FACT.

I'm loving how you have probably followed by fact. Are you really that silly?

evil_seed · 22-10-2007 11:49pm

on the subject of kuyts tackle, which was worse his or this
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XkR5BGXrA2Y

ziggy · 23-10-2007 12:09am

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Guy:Incognito · 23-10-2007 12:19am

ziggy wrote: »

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Seeing as you ignored my earlier explanation I'll point you towards it. Post 136

ziggy wrote: »

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If he had a knife he could have murdered Neville too. He didnt and he wasnt really close to injuring Neville. As I sadi above if he was going to do him his studs wouldnt have been turned up under himself. There wasnt any intent, which is crucial when theres no contact.

~Rebel~ · 23-10-2007 12:28am

ziggy wrote: »

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Im sure everyone agrees it was reckless and that he could have gone for it and noone could have complained much. What your saying that some people (myself included) are disagreeing with is that there was intent. Difference of opinion, you think he went in to actively try and seriously injure a player, some of us dont. And more importantly the ref didn't.

You dont have to agree with the decision, but surely you can see that if the ref decided there was no intent, as well as no contact, that a yellow isn't an unbelieveable decision.

Like the Chelsea peno decision against Liverpool for example?? :rolleyes:

..I dont get the comparison. Nobody claimed that call was made because we were up against the might of chelsea, everyone claimed it was made because of a ref that went insane for a few minutes.

Christ i hate the rolleyes emoticon.

Tusky · 23-10-2007 12:29am

ziggy wrote: »

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well, no...because Liverpool didnt lose did they ? And I dont remember anyone making the point that the decision went against us because Chelsea are a big team, it was just down to the ref being ****. You fail.

ziggy · 23-10-2007 12:36am

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ziggy · 23-10-2007 12:38am

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Guy:Incognito · 23-10-2007 1:03am

ziggy wrote: »

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There was no contact because Kuyt pulled his legs back and made sure there was no contact, meaning he didnt intend there to be contact.

No contact + No intent to injure x silly jumping block/tackle = yellow card

ziggy wrote: »

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Did you even look at the tackle? Kuyt's legs are pulled back under himself, (deliberatley so that there was no contact made)) the only way it was a tackle on Neville's standing leg (or his other leg) is if Kuyt decided to stretch out and show studs, which he clearly didnt do. Meaning no intent.

206th Merseyside Derby

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