Advertisement
If you have a new account but are having problems posting or verifying your account, please email us on hello@boards.ie for help. Thanks :)
Hello all! Please ensure that you are posting a new thread or question in the appropriate forum. The Feedback forum is overwhelmed with questions that are having to be moved elsewhere. If you need help to verify your account contact hello@boards.ie

PSNI at it again!

Options
2

Comments

  • Options
    #32
    murphaph
    Registered Users Posts: 19,022 ✭✭✭✭murphaph


    A Dub in Glasgo wrote: »
    I would say it was after the 1981 hunger strikes. Do you think getting somebody elected to a parliament is failing to 'do well'?
    Well, voting for a near corpse (puppeted into that position by SF, who later would go on to rather tastelessly issue tawdry plates with his image on!) elected to represent you shows more about the electorate than anything else.
    A Dub in Glasgo wrote: »
    If the IRA listened to the non-violent opposition, it is doubtful there would have been an independent Ireland
    In your opinion I'm sure. Totally impossible to prove one way or the other. In any case-was a 'free' Ireland which languished in desperate poverty for most of it's existance all that great? Are you glad the country was 'free' from the english tyrant, only to be replaced by the Roman Catholic Church? Are you glad the rest of the british isles had their 'sexual revolution' while the 26 counties remained largely ignorant and women resorted to smuggling condoms in from Northern Ireland? It was a prison! Worse than the brits could have ever imposed.

    If the IRA listened to anyone but their big egos the island would have been a happier place. It is now fractured forever because of them. Where did all the protestants down south go to? You may see it as a 'win' that they all but disappeared but I don't. Yeah, an independent but totally unfree Ireland, great.


  • Options
    #33
    gandalf
    Registered Users Posts: 26,458 ✭✭✭✭gandalf


    Can you all please get this thread back on topic or start one about the ins and outs of the IRA's actions in a new one. If this continues in this way I will lock this thread.


  • Options
    #34
    Jackie laughlin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,127 ✭✭✭Jackie laughlin


    McA,
    I'm not a pacifist. There are times when violence is necessary.

    Many of the situations you list do not involve a foreign aggressor.

    Britain's involvement in Ireland goes back to an age before the existence of Britain and indeed before the emergence of any coherent sense of Irish identity. This is not an argument against independence from Britain. It is simply a statement of fact that we were never invaded by Britain and Britain has never been a foreign aggressor in any meaningful sense of the term. We have a complex history.

    Violent nationalism in Ireland tends in any event to kill Irish people and frankly sometimes it is "ethnic" or "religious cleansing".


  • Options
    #35
    murphaph
    Registered Users Posts: 19,022 ✭✭✭✭murphaph


    Ok,
    To try to bring it back on topic a bit. I was watching the news yesterday I think and the PSNI had arrested Hutchinson of the PUP in connection with that Devlin murder. There were a rent-a-mob of PUPers outside the police station with cheap looking "political policing" slogans on. I ask you-both the green and orange side accuse the PSNI of no good. Those lads can't win. They get it from both sides and then have one of the most powerful police ombudsmen watching their every move.


  • Options
    #36
    Jackie laughlin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,127 ✭✭✭Jackie laughlin


    I agree. The PSNI is very impressive and many countries are watching and looking to the management structures which are making it so. The PSNI may be the one worthwhile consequence of terrorism.


  • Advertisement
  • Options
    #37
    McArmalite
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,476 ✭✭✭McArmalite


    murphaph wrote: »
    The PSNI are not perfect but I'd rather them than the Gardai to be honest. It strikes me as a much more professional outfit. There are many professional individuals in the guards, but the organisation as a whole needs serious reform. The PSNI are a radically changed outfit.
    Jackie laughlin wrote: »
    I agree. The PSNI is very impressive and many countries are watching and looking to the management structures which are making it so. The PSNI may be the one worthwhile consequence of terrorism.

    Well, as I said I've had experience of them and they certainly aren't the unionist thugs like they were in the past. In fairness to the vast majority of the ordinary Guards in comapring them to the PSNI, in football terms, we're not talking about Manchester United and Doncaster United are we ? But if they have changed it's mainly due to Gerry and Co "putting manners on them". The lovely unionist 'tradition' didn't want even the cap badge changed for God's sake !!!!
    murphaph wrote: »
    Ok,
    To try to bring it back on topic a bit. I was watching the news yesterday I think and the PSNI had arrested Hutchinson of the PUP in connection with that Devlin murder. There were a rent-a-mob of PUPers outside the police station with cheap looking "political policing" slogans on. I ask you-both the green and orange side accuse the PSNI of no good. Those lads can't win. They get it from both sides and then have one of the most powerful police ombudsmen watching their every move.

    Ah, God love them, it's not like the 'good old days' when the unionist community could depend on 'their boys' to go out and give the taigs a right good hammering.


  • Options
    #38
    murphaph
    Registered Users Posts: 19,022 ✭✭✭✭murphaph


    Funny, I thought it was Chris Patten who "put manners on them".


  • Options
    #39
    Jackie laughlin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,127 ✭✭✭Jackie laughlin


    Murph,
    Give them credit for something! All those people dead and maimed, well let SF/IRA argue that it was get a reformed police force. Something good should come of such evil.


  • Options
    #40
    LordSutch
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12,078 ✭✭✭✭LordSutch


    The PSNI are universally recognised as being one of the best Police forces in the World, and they are constantly under the microscope ~ courtesy of the Northern Ireland Police Ombudsman (Nula O'Loan).

    Nuff said..................


  • Options
    #41
    Hagar
    Closed Accounts Posts: 16,793 ✭✭✭✭Hagar


    ArthurF wrote: »
    The PSNI are universally recognised as being one of the best Police forces in the World, and they are constantly under the microscope ~ courtesy of the Northern Ireland Police Ombudsman (Nula O'Loan).

    Nuff said..................
    That is an unfounded generalisation, and why do you think they are under a microscope? Quite simply because their past behaviour warrants it.


  • Advertisement
  • Options
    #42
    purple'n'gold
    Registered Users Posts: 838 ✭✭✭purple'n'gold


    Hagar wrote: »
    That is an unfounded generalisation, and why do you think they are under a microscope? Quite simply because their past behaviour warrants it.

    Quiet definitely their past behaviour warrants it, and the Gardai should also be under the microscope especially after their disgraceful behaviour in Donegal. No harm whatsoever to have police forces under the microscope.


  • Options
    #43
    Jackie laughlin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,127 ✭✭✭Jackie laughlin


    So, it seems that everyone is in agreement that the PNSI is NOW a good police force. Then everyone in NI with any information about a crime should give that information to their police.


  • Options
    #44
    Erin Go Brath
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,708 ✭✭✭Erin Go Brath


    Jackie laughlin wrote: »
    So, it seems that everyone is in agreement that the PNSI is NOW a good police force.

    Not everyone is agreement about that, far from it. Having an Ombudsman watching closely is a step in the right direction though. My heart bleeds for them if they don't like someone looking over their shoulder. :)


  • Options
    #45
    Jackie laughlin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,127 ✭✭✭Jackie laughlin


    Erin,
    Are they good enough that all citizens should tell the police everything they know of crimes?


  • Options
    #46
    Erin Go Brath
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,708 ✭✭✭Erin Go Brath


    Jackie laughlin wrote: »
    Erin,
    Are they good enough that all citizens should tell the police everything they know of crimes?

    Yes. Theres still a long way to go before they can be considered a good, fair and unbiased force, but yes crimes should be reported.


  • Options
    #47
    cranmore
    Closed Accounts Posts: 45 ✭cranmore


    Erin Go Brath wrote: »
    Yes. Theres still a long way to go before they can be considered a good, fair and unbiased force.

    i agree 100% with this comment.


  • Options
    #48
    Jackie laughlin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,127 ✭✭✭Jackie laughlin


    I don't mean to be either rude or pedantic but choice of words has cost so much in Ireland. May is ask is there any difference between "crimes should be reported" and "all citizens should tell the police everything they know of crimes"?


  • Options
    #49
    Erin Go Brath
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,708 ✭✭✭Erin Go Brath


    Jackie laughlin wrote: »
    I don't mean to be either rude or pedantic but choice of words has cost so much in Ireland. May is ask is there any difference between "crimes should be reported" and "all citizens should tell the police everything they know of crimes"?

    No offence taken. :) "crimes should be reported", "all citizens should tell the police everything they know of crimes" (sounds one and the same to me). Anyway, Yes, and Yes. Hope that clarifies thing further.


  • Options
    #50
    Jackie laughlin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,127 ✭✭✭Jackie laughlin


    Erin,
    May I push you on this? Is it your position that if anyone has any information on, say, the Le Mon murders, they should tell the police?


  • Options
    #51
    Erin Go Brath
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,708 ✭✭✭Erin Go Brath


    Jackie laughlin wrote: »
    Erin,
    May I push you on this? Is it your position that if anyone has any information on, say, the Le Mon murders, they should tell the police?

    Yes


  • Advertisement
  • Options
    #52
    Jackie laughlin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,127 ✭✭✭Jackie laughlin


    I agree. Thank you for being tolerant of my probing.

    I often mention Le Mon as my "for instance" as among all the horrors it seems to stand out.


  • Options
    #53
    FTA69
    Registered Users Posts: 9,252 ✭✭✭FTA69


    Personally I don't trust any British police force in Ireland to ever be an unbiased organisation and for that reason I won't ever be touting to the police.


  • Options
    #54
    murphaph
    Registered Users Posts: 19,022 ✭✭✭✭murphaph


    FTA69 wrote: »
    Personally I don't trust any British police force in Ireland to ever be an unbiased organisation and for that reason I won't ever be touting to the police.
    Do you trust any british police force? If so, why trust a british police force in Britain but not one in Ireland?


  • Options
    #55
    Jackie laughlin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,127 ✭✭✭Jackie laughlin


    FTA69,
    Does this mean that information should be withheld from any police force in N.I. for as long as that part of Ireland remains part of the UK?

    That raises another question. In the event of a united Ireland, the PSNI members would not be sacked en masse. Would these same people whom you don't trust, become trustworthy by virtue of their chief reporting to Dublin?


  • Options
    #56
    murphaph
    Registered Users Posts: 19,022 ✭✭✭✭murphaph


    Jackie laughlin wrote: »
    That raises another question. In the event of a united Ireland, the PSNI members would not be sacked en masse. Would these same people whom you don't trust, become trustworthy by virtue of their chief reporting to Dublin?
    A very pertinent question. In the event of a UI, it is even possible that the Gardai and PSNI may merge and face a name change to Police Service of Ireland! Would you trust the former PSNI members then? What if a former PSNI officer transfered to Cork inside this new PSI? How would you know if they were an ex-dirtybritbastard? You wouldn't! Let the paranoia begin....


  • Options
    #57
    FTA69
    Registered Users Posts: 9,252 ✭✭✭FTA69


    Do you trust any british police force? If so, why trust a british police force in Britain but not one in Ireland?

    Because a British force in Ireland fundamentally political and partisan in my view. The raison detre of a police force is to protect and uphold the state and the status quo, broadly speaking that would mean upholding the class-based societies in which we live. Dismissing the Marxism for a while though, in our context the police will always oppose those who seek to threaten the status quo of the British presence ine will always be a political tool.

    Police forces historically act in the interests of those who are the most powerful and wealthy in society, often with a view to containing and constricting the most deprived in society. One only has to have a look at the way the police behaved during the anti-drugs campaign in Dublin for an example of this. I don't hate every copper, but I do have a distrust of the police wherever they may be.


  • Options
    #58
    Jackie laughlin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,127 ✭✭✭Jackie laughlin


    I take it that this means that the problem particular to the PSNI is that it enforces the law and order of the UK. If its members defended a similar set of laws but they were not UK laws, that would be different!!

    All institutions of the state - both repressive and ideological institutions - of course work to defend the privileges of the ruling classes. However, they are not set in stone and can be reformed and used to deliver good to the citizens generally. This is precisely what has happened to the PSNI and its structures should be applied to An Garda.


  • Options
    #59
    murphaph
    Registered Users Posts: 19,022 ✭✭✭✭murphaph


    FTA69 wrote: »
    Because a British force in Ireland fundamentally political and partisan in my view. The raison detre of a police force is to protect and uphold the state and the status quo, broadly speaking that would mean upholding the class-based societies in which we live. Dismissing the Marxism for a while though, in our context the police will always oppose those who seek to threaten the status quo of the British presence ine will always be a political tool.

    Police forces historically act in the interests of those who are the most powerful and wealthy in society, often with a view to containing and constricting the most deprived in society. One only has to have a look at the way the police behaved during the anti-drugs campaign in Dublin for an example of this. I don't hate every copper, but I do have a distrust of the police wherever they may be.
    How would you suggest we do things if we eliminate police forces? What would I do if someone wronged me?


  • Options
    #60
    Victor
    Registered Users Posts: 78,423 ✭✭✭✭Victor


    FTA69 wrote: »
    Because a British force in Ireland fundamentally political and partisan in my view. The raison detre of a police force is to protect and uphold the state and the status quo, broadly speaking that would mean upholding the class-based societies in which we live. Dismissing the Marxism for a while though, in our context the police will always oppose those who seek to threaten the status quo of the British presence ine will always be a political tool.
    This function, along with about 500 special branch officers has been moved to MI5.


  • Advertisement
  • Options
    #61
    FTA69
    Registered Users Posts: 9,252 ✭✭✭FTA69


    All institutions of the state - both repressive and ideological institutions - of course work to defend the privileges of the ruling classes. However, they are not set in stone and can be reformed and used to deliver good to the citizens generally.

    As a socialist you should know that reforming state apparatuses such as the police and military is impossible through parliamentary means alone, you only have to look at Chile for a demonstration of that. Or even in Ireland the British Army has twice given the fingers to the government that it is supposed to serve. The first instance being when they were ordered to disarm Carson's UVF and point blank refused, the second when they were ordered to move against the UWC strike in the mid-70s. Radical change in society will never come about through exclusively constitutional methods.
    How would you suggest we do things if we eliminate police forces? What would I do if someone wronged me?

    I don't believe in a situation where there will never be a need for policing. However there can be a distinction between what you term police forces and what has the potential to be a police service. I can think of a few ideas which I believe would make the police more acceptable.


Advertisement