PSNI at it again!

murphaph

FTA69 wrote: »

I don't believe in a situation where there will never be a need for policing. However there can be a distinction between what you term police forces and what has the potential to be a police service. I can think of a few ideas which I believe would make the police more acceptable.

To be honest FTA, when you've had the displeasure of trying to get anti-social little sh!theads away from your premises to save them vandalising it further, you want a force not a service.

However, I am pleased to read that you do believe there is a need for policing. I take it you mean policing by the police (force or service) and not by some group of private individuals acting in their own capacity?

What would you like changed about the Garda to make them more acceptable as a police force/service? I'll start the ball rolling......an ombudsman.

FTA69

To be honest FTA, when you've had the displeasure of trying to get anti-social little sh!theads away from your premises to save them vandalising it further, you want a force not a service.

I've grown up with anti-social behaviour all my life, I also have distinct memories of my mother phoning the cops about joyriders burning up and down the estate only for the police to turn up 5 or 6 hours afterwards. Interestingly enough if we had lived in Blackrock I'd say they would have been there a lot quicker. I also find the "lack of resources" lark a bit hollow when every Sunday commemoration I go to usually has car loads of Branchmen parked opposite.

I take it you mean policing by the police (force or service) and not by some group of private individuals acting in their own capacity?

Vigiliantism is not an ideal solution to anything, and the truth is that it simply doesn't work as well as people often may think. As I said, I will never support a British police force in Ireland, and I have serious reservations about the Guards but at the end of the day the latter has some chance of reform.

What would you like changed about the Garda to make them more acceptable as a police force/service? I'll start the ball rolling......an ombudsman.

The abolition of the Special Branch.
The abolition of juryless courts.
Locally elected policing boards where police are held directly to account.
Police to come from the areas in which they operate.
An independent ombudsman with complete investigative powers.
An end to Templemore, to be replaced by smaller, local training centres with a focus on "on-the-job" training.

Victor

FTA69 wrote: »

The abolition of juryless courts.

How do we deal with serious gang crime where witnesses are systematically threatened?

Locally elected policing boards where police are held directly to account.

How local?

Police to come from the areas in which they operate.

This risks a culture of an 'old boys club'.

An end to Templemore, to be replaced by smaller, local training centres with a focus on "on-the-job" training.

How small? As it is, I suspect Templemore is small on the scale of police training centre.

Jackie laughlin

FTA,
I'm well aware of the difficulty of reform, particularly when reform challenges the very structure of society. However, are you really saying that you believe that all reform requires revolution??? No, of course you're not because in your next post you talk of reform of An Garda.

I can only repeat what I said earlier that for you the problem particular to the PSNI is that it enforces the law and order of the UK. If its members defended a similar set of laws but they were not UK laws, that would be different!!

By the way, the British govt. did not order action against the UWC "strike". The Labour govt. to their shame did not make such an order because they fretted about the image of soldiers and police tackling "picketers"!

ScottishDanny

As the PSNI is so new I think it is difficult to judge them. However measure them against the old RUC and they look like angels. There was a definite need for reform there. I'd be concerned not by the new recruits but by the top brass. The inspectors and Superintendents of the PSNI were the constables and sergeants of the old RUC back in the day. Any members who were involved in dodgy actions from back then won't want to have them investigated now.

I lived in the north for a few years in the 90's and I didn't have any good experiences in dealing with the RUC.

FTA69

How do we deal with serious gang crime where witnesses are systematically threatened?

What have witnesses to do with juries? How do they deal with serious crime in countries like France, Sweden or Holland?

How local?

That could be up for debate.

This risks a culture of an 'old boys club'.

It's better than the situation we have now where the cops are often viewed as outside force who have carte blanche to mistreat or assault anyone they want with impunity. People would be a lot more likely to trust the police if they actually knew them and their families, similarly police would be less likely to act up in the presence of their neighbours and wider community. I think an effective ombudsman and system of accountability would combat any "old boys club" emerging.

How small? As it is, I suspect Templemore is small on the scale of police training centre.

Another two or three perhaps, with aspects of policing to be made a course in college. That way they are mixing with people from all walks of life, pursuing many different paths as opposed to being indoctrinated in Templemore.

FTA69

However, are you really saying that you believe that all reform requires revolution???

No, rather that revolution is the ultimate goal to which socialists should aspire, something that the centrist social democrats of Labour and the SDLP have abandoned a long time ago. Socialists coalescing with one of the most reactionary parties in Ireland? Some laugh I tell ye.

I can only repeat what I said earlier that for you the problem particular to the PSNI is that it enforces the law and order of the UK. If its members defended a similar set of laws but they were not UK laws, that would be different!!

I still disagree with the capitalist system, but I also understand that real socialists will never tolerate British imperialism in Ireland and that means rejecting their institutions and armed forces in this country.

By the way, the British govt. did not order action against the UWC "strike". The Labour govt. to their shame did not make such an order because they fretted about the image of soldiers and police tackling "picketers"!

Bullsh*t, sometimes I really do despair talking to you Jackie. The Labour government went apoplectic over the strike and ordered the Army to remove pickets, something which the generals simply refused to do, just like they did in 1912. I think you will also remember the Prime Minister referring to the picketers as "spongers" in a spiteful and frustrated speech caused by the fact Sunningdale was in ruins and his own army ignored him. Gas stuff, and an important lesson for all on the supposed accountability of the armed forces.

FTA69

FTA69 wrote: »

as opposed to being indoctrinated in Templemore.

LoL.What a load of utter rubbish.

No, rather that revolution is the ultimate goal to which socialists should aspire, something that the centrist social democrats of Labour and the SDLP have abandoned a long time ago. Socialists coalescing with one of the most reactionary parties in Ireland? Some laugh I tell ye.

You've been reading too many dusty books with red covers methinks.

FTA69

LoL.What a load of utter rubbish.

Whatever lad, you're entitled to your opinion. I've seen noticeable changes in the attitudes of those I know who joined Five O. Joining the cops (or any large group with a command structure) can sometimes be quite a claustrophobic experience which can affect people differently.

You've been reading too many dusty books with red covers methinks.

F*ck it, you're fierce witty today. I'm not ashamed to be a socialist by any means, the world doesn't end with capitalism, regardless of what the Fukuyamas and the Rumsfelds may think.

murphaph

FTA69 wrote: »

What have witnesses to do with juries? How do they deal with serious crime in countries like France, Sweden or Holland?

Your obsession with trial by jury is interesting as it a most british invention which originated out of english common law. Trial by jury is considered madness in much of the world as untrained civilians decide your guilt or innocence when they often simply don't undertstand what's going on in a case. Countries with civil legal codes (as opposed to us and the rest of the fromer empire with our common law system) have a far lower reliance on jury trials and they are often seen as a novelty. Germany for example has no trials by jury whatsoever.

It is worth noting that Westminster is currently seeking to eliminate the right to trial by jury for serious fraud offences as they believe the facts are too complex for laymen to understand and to give a fair trial.

FTA69 wrote: »

Another two or three perhaps, with aspects of policing to be made a course in college. That way they are mixing with people from all walks of life, pursuing many different paths as opposed to being indoctrinated in Templemore.

I agree that there are problems with the culture of Gardai coming out of the 'garda factory'. I've said it before and I'll say it again-the Gardai need a lot of reform

Jackie laughlin

FTA,
I worry about your immortal soul. Despair is a mortal sin and it would upset me if I thought I had a part in driving you there. I do now recall the "spongers" remark and I will go check. I'm always open to correction or - dare I say it? - to revising my views in the light of information.

More and more socialists from Kautsky onwards abandoned revolution in favour of democracy as a means to socialism.

I still don't see how the PSNI answering to Dublin would be in any way different to the same PSNI answering to Stormont/London.

FTA69

FTA69 wrote: »

Whatever lad, you're entitled to your opinion. I've seen noticeable changes in the attitudes of those I know who joined Five O. Joining the cops (or any large group with a command structure) can sometimes be quite a claustrophobic experience which can affect people differently.

I'm still lol'ing mainly due to how tiny the number of people with a view like that must be.

F*ck it, you're fierce witty today.

Thank you,I do try.

I'm not ashamed to be a socialist by any means, the world doesn't end with capitalism, regardless of what the Fukuyamas and the Rumsfelds may think.

I'm a bit of a social democrat my self it has to be said and I don't hold your politics against you at all.
But going back to my point above about tiny minority views.If I held one,I'd usually ask myself the question why so many people do not hold the same view on things before I pontificate as to my view being the be all and end all.
I doubt it boils down to most everyone else being stupid and they are wrong and I am right.

FTA69

Your obsession with trial by jury is interesting as it a most british invention

British? Oh boo hiss! There you are again insinuating I have a hatred for all things English, a lazy argument if there ever was one. I support a jury trial because I'd rather 12 of my peers deciding my fate as opposed to three upper-class judges and a Garda superindentant a la the SCC.

Jackie,

More and more socialists from Kautsky onwards abandoned revolution in favour of democracy as a means to socialism.

Yeah and that's going well is it? It worked wonders in Chile sure, when the yanks and the military simply brushed the government aside. I also can't see how the socialism issue matters to you when you aren't even a member of a socialist party.

I still don't see how the PSNI answering to Dublin would be in any way different to the same PSNI answering to Stormont/London.

Because Britain is an imperialistic presence in Ireland and as such the police will always be used to forward that agenda. I'm sure I don't have to provide examples of how that was done in the past. However as a Republican I believe that natioanl change is useless unless it is accompanied by radical social and economic reform.

Tristame,

I'm still lol'ing mainly due to how tiny the number of people with a view like that must be.

So you believe that it is only a "tiny number of people" who distrust the guards and think they have a culture of corruption? Even murphaph agreed with me on that point, perhaps he's an isolated fringe loonie as well?

If I held one,I'd usually ask myself the question why so many people do not hold the same view on things before I pontificate as to my view being the be all and end all.
I doubt it boils down to most everyone else being stupid and they are wrong and I am right.

Many prevalent political views started off as tiny minority beliefs, and often ended up making dramatic changes the world over. People once laughed off the Bolsheviks as a sect that would come to nothing. Now I'm not saying that my views will necessary be proved correct in an Irish context, but it is rather disingenious to dismiss views that aren't held by the majority, because the truth is the majority is largely apathetic to macro-politics in general.

Jackie laughlin

FTA69,
This is curious. Do you really believe that revolution is justified or necessary anywhere in, say, Europe? Interestingly, you use the word "reform" further down your post.

I'll say it again: my socialism predates my membership of the Labour Party. I made a decision to join in the full knowledge that I was joining a labour party and also in the knowledge that by far the greatest concentration of Irish socialists is in the Labour Party. To which party do you belong?

Britain isn't an imperial power with an imperial agenda. OK, many Britons are still struggling to come to terms with the change and accept that Britain is just another country within the EU. British ruling class interests and Irish ruling class interests are indistinguishable. The PSNI reporting to Dublin would make not the slightest difference to their operation.

FTA69

FTA69 wrote: »

So you believe that it is only a "tiny number of people" who distrust the guards and think they have a culture of corruption? Even murphaph agreed with me on that point, perhaps he's an isolated fringe loonie as well?

I never called anyone a loon but if he thinks that way about the Gardaí,yes he is isolated.

Many prevalent political views started off as tiny minority beliefs, and often ended up making dramatic changes the world over. People once laughed off the Bolsheviks as a sect that would come to nothing.

don't get me started on that one as you know what happened with that experiment in a mass police controlled state.In fact I'd find it ironic that you'd laud that set up over the Gardaí or psni...

Now I'm not saying that my views will necessary be proved correct in an Irish context, but it is rather disingenious to dismiss views that aren't held by the majority, because the truth is the majority is largely apathetic to macro-politics in general.

Ah crap.
60% turnouts at elections here is by any definition a majority of the electorate and as I alluded to earlier-dismissing many of them as being too stupid to see the light of your ideas is actually the disengenous bit...

Jackie laughlin

Minority opinions are essential to an open society.

FTA69

Jackie,

This is curious. Do you really believe that revolution is justified or necessary anywhere in, say, Europe?

I would hope to see a socialist system the world over, but no, that doesn't mean I necessarily believe that every European socialist should be running around with Kalashnikovs and seizing factories. However the situation in the north of Ireland was always far removed from that of the rest of the EU.

I made a decision to join in the full knowledge that I was joining a labour party and also in the knowledge that by far the greatest concentration of Irish socialists is in the Labour Party.

But yet it is not a socialist party. Sinn Féin also has a large concentration of socialists within it, as well as a broadly left-wing membership, but likewise SF isn't really a socialist party anymore either is it? There's no point in being a socialist in a centrist party in my view.

Britain isn't an imperial power with an imperial agenda.

Not half. Are you telling me now that illegally invading Iraq and Afganistan in aid of US interests in the Middle East is not an imperial adventure? At the end of the day the facts remain that if the Brits had no strategic or selfish interest in Ireland they would be gone tomorrow, the same way they left Cyprus, Aden and Hong Kong.

FTA69

Tristame,

You are creating legions of strawmen, and attributing to me arguments that I never even made in the first place.

I never called anyone a loon but if he thinks that way about the Gardaí,yes he is isolated.

To be honest I'd say you're the loon if you believe that only a tiny minority of people have concerns about the Gardai and feel perfectly happy with the way they are.

don't get me started on that one as you know what happened with that experiment in a mass police controlled state.In fact I'd find it ironic that you'd laud that set up over the Gardaí or psni...

Whatever. Where did I ever laud the USSR? I didn't at all, I simply used the Bolsheviks as an example of a small group with supposedly crazy ideas who caused arguably the most important event of the 20th Century.

Ah crap.
60% turnouts at elections here is by any definition a majority of the electorate and as I alluded to earlier-dismissing many of them as being too stupid to see the light of your ideas is actually the disengenous bit...

I never said anyone who didn't share my beliefs was "too stupid", that's you just lazily putting words in my mouth. What I said was that many people are completely apathetic toward politics and participate in it very little. People are also quite fickle when it comes to politics, something which has been demonstrated countless times the world over.

FTA69

FTA69 wrote: »

Tristame,

You are creating legions of strawmen, and attributing to me arguments that I never even made in the first place.



To be honest I'd say you're the loon if you believe that only a tiny minority of people have concerns about the Gardai and feel perfectly happy with the way they are.

Most people do actually.I'd feel pretty confident in saying that.Of course they've made mistakes but by and large they do a very good job.

Whatever. Where did I ever laud the USSR? I didn't at all, I simply used the Bolsheviks as an example of a small group with supposedly crazy ideas who caused arguably the most important event of the 20th Century.

I know but really,I wouldn't suggest that Joe Higgins do the same now that he has lost his seat.Thats is yet another example of what I always maintain that you can't do ie go taking examples of what went on decades and certainly centuries ago and attempt to say they apply today.
Society has evolved beyond much of what was acceptable in the early part of the last century.

I never said anyone who didn't share my beliefs was "too stupid", that's you just lazily putting words in my mouth. What I said was that many people are completely apathetic toward politics and participate in it very little. People are also quite fickle when it comes to politics, something which has been demonstrated countless times the world over.

Thats another way of saying that they are being stupid regarding their vote.
I'll put it to you that its far from your authority or mine to judge people en masse for the way that they vote.
They can make their own minds up and do and are entitled to do so.
Tough for anyone that disagree's with them.
Generally though,when a majority agree's with something, it's not necessarally a bad thing.
Generally it works.

Victor

Jackie laughlin wrote: »

Minority opinions are essential to an open society.

That doesn't make them right!

Jackie laughlin

Victor,
I didn't say that they were right. I said that they were essential.

FTA,
Can we agree that revolution could not be justified anywhere in Ireland today?

Many Britons (particularly old fashioned Tories) see Irish separatism as incomprehensible; they regard the Irish as British. The Irish are allowed to travel in and out and we have the rights of citizens/subjects. OK, there are questions being asked about the future of this practice but the point remains.

Britain still has a relatively large army etc. but it is hardly an imperial power these days. It is a military adjunct to the US. I concede that the argument would be hard to accept if you were the victim of a British warhead but Britain's primary role in Iraq is to lend a touch of internationalism to the US adventure.

"Centrist" is a catcall hurled at the Labour Party by political opponents from all places on the ideological spectrum. I realise fully where the Labour Party stands and I'm loyal but make criticisms. I could of course opt out or join a small club (The small parties of which I'm aware live a world unrecognisable to a person paying critical attention to the world as it exists today.) but I chose not to. To which party do you belong?

Now, in what way is the PSNI serving a specifically British ruling class and how would its operations change if it were under the control of Dublin?