History Lessons

keefg

I was wondering about history lessons in other countries, for example, I was born in Ireland but moved to the UK at a young age & went to school there. From what I remember (it was a looooong time ago ) of my history lessons, certain members of English/British history were portrayed as national heros, Ollie Cromwell springs to mind and since I returned to Ireland many moons ago I learned that he wasn't exactly a nice chap (to the Irish anyway).
In English schools a king or leader who invades another country does so for the good & great of his country and is portrayed as a great leader (or so they tell you :rolleyes:) and you don't hear too much about the horrors endured by the citizens of the country that has just been invaded.

So, just wondering how German teachers handle thier country's .....erm, indiscretions, between 1939-1945?

I am not suggesting that German teachers portray Adolph and his mates as any kind of national heros, but how do they go about such a delicate/sensitive (embarrasing ??) time in their history? Or do they totally dissasociate the German nationals from the events and treat the nazi party as a seperate entity from "Germany"?

I am not trying to offend anyone or start some pro/anti nazi rant, I am just interested to see how the education system differs (or not) from country to country and with WW2 being fairly recent it is a good example.

So, just where do the teachers start? Any German nationals on here?

Jesus Wept

Every country writes their own History books.

My English friends really have little or no clue of the history between their country and ours. They think our countries are/always have been great pals.

humanji

I think German history teachers all teach about the holocaust and WW2 in as much detail as they can. I had a german friend who was telling me about their school. She said that it was done in a kind of "Be very ashamed of what your country did." And she said everyone was pretty uncomfortable in those classes. But that was her class. May be different for everyone else.

Rovi

By all accounts, the German educational system (and German society in general) has faced up to it's past and treats it as a reality from which to learn.

However,do some searching on the teaching of history in Japan to see a somewhat different approach...
Here's something to be getting started with-
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanese_history_textbook_controversies

jesus_thats_gre

Always wondered this myself. I love the way they constantly refer to the Republic of Ireland as Southern Ireland in UK text books.

SpitfireIV

keefg wrote: »

So, just wondering how German teachers handle thier country's .....erm, indiscretions, between 1939-1945?

I am not suggesting that German teachers portray Adolph and his mates as any kind of national heros, but how do they go about such a delicate/sensitive (embarrasing ??) time in their history? Or do they totally dissasociate the German nationals from the events and treat the nazi party as a seperate entity from "Germany"?

I am not trying to offend anyone or start some pro/anti nazi rant, I am just interested to see how the education system differs (or not) from country to country and with WW2 being fairly recent it is a good example.

So, just where do the teachers start? Any German nationals on here?

A friend of mine from Germany told me that the whole Hitler/Holocaust thing was shoved down there necks in school, I was quite surprised, I thought it'd have been a touchy subject, you know, best forgotten about, but apparently not. They're made very well aware of what went on in them years.

keefg

Rovi wrote: »

However,do some searching on the teaching of history in Japan to see a somewhat different approach...
Here's something to be getting started with-
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanese_history_textbook_controversies

Very interesting, I had forgotten about Japan's role in WW2, normally when someone mentions the war your first image is of a fella with a funny little tash.

I think I saw something on the news a while back about a Japanese minister visiting a WW2 memorial and the fuss that caused.

Fratton Fred

The-Rigger wrote: »

Every country writes their own History books.

My English friends really have little or no clue of the history between their country and ours. They think our countries are/always have been great pals.

there is hardly any mention of Ireland at all, at least not when I went to school.

In the grand scheme of things though, Ireland was a fairly small part of a huge empire so it could quite esily be brushed aside as an embarrassing side show.

That's not to belittle Irish History, but WWI, the league of nations and the run up to WWII was a bigger factor in British history than what was going on in Ireland at the time. (If you know what I mean).

seamus

I could be wrong here, but I thought it was illegal in Germany to teach/distribute revisionism material. So regardless of how much a teacher might like to rosy up the past, they can't. The Germans take WW2 very seriously, like a scar on their conscience.

keefg

Fratton Fred wrote: »

there is hardly any mention of Ireland at all, at least not when I went to school.

In the grand scheme of things though, Ireland was a fairly small part of a huge empire so it could quite esily be brushed aside as an embarrassing side show.

That's not to belittle Irish History, but WWI, the league of nations and the run up to WWII was a bigger factor in British history than what was going on in Ireland at the time. (If you know what I mean).

Same for me goint to school in England during the 70's & 80's. One of the most turbulent times in Irish history and even though the british government & army were involved I have no recollection of any teacher mentioning what was going on.

peasant

If you go through the German education system (like I did), there is no escaping from the fact, that your grandfather's generation let something horrific and terrifying happen right under their noses.

German history from the 1870's (the formation of the first German National State) through WWI, the Weimar Republik, the Nazi era and WWII is tought in detail and ad nauseam and you're left in no doubt as to the horrific details and the gruesome numbers of the Nazis' genocide.

A visit to a concentration camp will take place at least once during your school career.

During my time (I don't know if that has changed by now), so much emphasis was placed onto drumming the "badness" of it all into you, that very little time was left to point out the achievements of the democratic Germany after the war ...plus everybody was busy painting "The East" in a bad light.

The end result is that Germans of my generation deep down still feel very "ashamed" and guilty about their nation and have quite some difficulty in displaying national pride ,never mind wave a flag or sing the hymn.

Apparantly that has changed during the football world cup ...I wasn't there for that, so I'm still no flag waver.

Mizu_Ger

Has anyone been through the US educational system? I wonder what they teach about the Vietnam war? Almost every country has something dodgy in the past.

Fratton Fred

peasant wrote: »

The end result is that Germans of my generation deep down still feel very "ashamed" and guilty about their nation and have quite some difficulty in displaying national pride ,never mind wave a flag or sing the hymn.

that's a shame. our generation having guilt forced on us by our forefathers is something I can relate to.

If you listen to Churchill's speaches, he often refers to defeating "Hitler" and "The Nazis" rather than Germany. This was quite deliberate.

Wacker

From what I've managed to pick up, must German Neo-Nazis come from the East, and grew up before the fall of the Berlin Wall. They were not thaught like Peasant above; they were never thaught to feel somehow responsible for the sins of the father, and to be vigilant to prevent it from happening again. Makes sense, I suppose.

As to our own view of history, I heard a while ago that when Cromwell sacked Dundalk (or was it Drogheda? I always get those two confused, apologies!) that he only put the garrisson to the sword, which wuld have been common practice at the time. It was our own propagande that said that he butchered evry man, woman and child. I have no idea whether this is true or not, but it does actually strike me as more likely.

Fratton Fred

Wacker wrote: »

As to our own view of history, I heard a while ago that when Cromwell sacked Dundalk (or was it Drogheda? I always get those two confused, apologies!) that he only put the garrisson to the sword, which wuld have been common practice at the time. It was our own propagande that said that he butchered evry man, woman and child. I have no idea whether this is true or not, but it does actually strike me as more likely.

from what I can gather, most of the history relating to Ireland and Britain has been spun somehow, by both sides.

keefg

peasant wrote: »

If you go through the German education system (like I did), there is no escaping from the fact, that your grandfather's generation let something horrific and terrifying happen right under their noses.

German history from the 1870's (the formation of the first German National State) through WWI, the Weimar Republik, the Nazi era and WWII is tought in detail and ad nauseam and you're left in no doubt as to the horrific details and the gruesome numbers of the Nazis' genocide.

A visit to a concentration camp will take place at least once during your school career.

During my time (I don't know if that has changed by now), so much emphasis was placed onto drumming the "badness" of it all into you, that very little time was left to point out the achievements of the democratic Germany after the war ...plus everybody was busy painting "The East" in a bad light.

The end result is that Germans of my generation deep down still feel very "ashamed" and guilty about their nation and have quite some difficulty in displaying national pride ,never mind wave a flag or sing the hymn.

Apparantly that has changed during the football world cup ...I wasn't there for that, so I'm still no flag waver.

Excellent post peasant. Thank you for the insight.

I don't think you should feel at all ashamed to be German unless you share the same idiologies as your ansestors (which I am sure you don't - let's get that clear). You have every reason to be proud of your nationality, Germany has contributed a lot to society since 1945.

_blank_

What have ze Germans ever done for us?

Demetrius

DesF wrote: »

What have ze Germans ever done for us?

Ardnacrusha.

chopperbyrne

DesF wrote: »

What have ze Germans ever done for us?

Heidi Klum and Xenia Seeberg.

peasant

keefg wrote: »

Excellent post peasant. Thank you for the insight.

I don't think you should feel at all ashamed to be German unless you share the same idiologies as your ansestors (which I am sure you don't - let's get that clear). You have every reason to be proud of your nationality, Germany has contributed a lot to society since 1945.

Just to clarify ...

Me and most Germans of my generation wouldn't necessarily be "ashamed" of being German, we just have some trouble with being proud of the fact and even more difficulty with displaying it.

Pre- world cup (when Germany drowned in flags and "good vibes") an open display of pride in your nationality (like flying a German flag in your back garden, or singing of the national anthem in a pub ...things that other nationalities do without thinking) would automatically cast the shadow of "right wing" / neo Nazi suspiscions upon you.
Not necessarily from foreigners, but from fellow Germans.

During the 80's/90's if you publicly stated that you were "proud to be German" you pretty much outed yourself as a neo Nazi ...as this was their slogan at the time.

I don't know what it's like there now ...I'm here too long

ejmaztec

DesF wrote: »

What have ze Germans ever done for us?

They put the Americans on the Moon, but unfortunately not all of 'em:D

What would Irish people have been driving if it weren't for the VW Beetle epidemic that happened during the 30 odd years after WW2?

Terry

DesF wrote: »

What have ze Germans ever done for us?

Demetrius wrote: »

Ardnacrusha.

chopperbyrne wrote: »

Heidi Klum and Xenia Seeberg.

Poor Stan never got any lovin'.

ejmaztec wrote: »

They put the Americans on the Moon, but unfortunately not all of 'em:D

What would Irish people have been driving if it weren't for the VW Beetle epidemic that happened during the 30 odd years after WW2?

You have all forgotten the biggest thing the Germans ever gave us.
The Ballymun flats.

chopperbyrne

Terry wrote: »

Poor Stan never got any lovin'.

From either of the Xev/Zevs!

_blank_

Demetrius wrote: »

Ardnacrusha.

chopperbyrne wrote: »

Heidi Klum and Xenia Seeberg.

ejmaztec wrote: »

They put the Americans on the Moon, but unfortunately not all of 'em:D

What would Irish people have been driving if it weren't for the VW Beetle epidemic that happened during the 30 odd years after WW2?

Terry wrote: »

You have all forgotten the biggest thing the Germans ever gave us.
The Ballymun flats.

Ok, apart from Ardnacrusha, Heidi Klum, Xenai Seeberg, putting Americans on the moon, the VW Beetle and the Ballymun flats, what have ze Germans ever done for us.











multiquote

Chunks

I spent a summer living in South Africa with a guy from England(cumbria to be exact) and a guy from Northern Ireland( a devout loyalist who also believed that NI should be seen as a country unto itself but with ties to Britain)

Obviously the whole politics came up on a number of occassions and what I could gather from the Brit was their history teachings of Ireland was the same way we viewed other countries in our leaving cert history i.e; when the question about our independence, 1916 rising, 1798 rising etc.. was put to him he sat back and said "ah yes, the Irish question" .......... it infuriated me to hear that. to be honest, they don't view us with as much interest in their history teachings as we think or would like. as far as they're concerned we're just another troublesome colony like the US or India.

the guy from NI had a similar schooling as the Brit but there was more emphasis on working towards change and how both unionists and nationalists were at fault equally.

Mully

keefg wrote: »

I was wondering about history lessons in other countries, for example, I was born in Ireland but moved to the UK at a young age & went to school there. From what I remember (it was a looooong time ago ) of my history lessons, certain members of English/British history were portrayed as national heros, Ollie Cromwell springs to mind and since I returned to Ireland many moons ago I learned that he wasn't exactly a nice chap (to the Irish anyway).
In English schools a king or leader who invades another country does so for the good & great of his country and is portrayed as a great leader (or so they tell you :rolleyes:) and you don't hear too much about the horrors endured by the citizens of the country that has just been invaded.

Colony - Damien Dempsey.

I look to the east, I look to the west
To the north and the south, and I'm not too impressed
Time after time
After crime after crime
They raped, robbed, pillaged, enslaved and murdered
Jesus Christ was their god and they done it in his name
So he could take the blame if it's not all a game
With bible in one hand and a sword in the other
They came to purify my land of my Gaelic Irish mothers
And fathers, and sisters and brothers
With our own ancient customs, laws, music, art
Way of life and culture
Tribal in structure
We had a civilisation
When they were still neanderthal nations

We suffer with the Native American, the Indian in Asia
Aboriginal Australia
The African people with their history so deep
And our children still weep and our lives are still cheap
You came from Germany, from France, from England
And from Spain
From Belgium and from Portugal
You all done much the same
You took what was not yours
Went against your own bible
You broke your own laws
Just to out do the rival

But did you ever apologize
For the hundreds and millions of lives
You destroyed and terrorised
Or have you never realized
Did you never feel shame
For what was done in your country's name
And find out who's to blame and why they were so inhumane
And still they teach you in your school
About those glorious days of rule
And how it's your destiny to be
Superior to me
But if you've any kind of mind
You'll see that all human kind
Are the children of this earth
And your hate for them will chew you up and spit you out

kevmy

Chunks wrote: »

I spent a summer living in South Africa with a guy from England(cumbria to be exact) and a guy from Northern Ireland( a devout loyalist who also believed that NI should be seen as a country unto itself but with ties to Britain)

Obviously the whole politics came up on a number of occassions and what I could gather from the Brit was their history teachings of Ireland was the same way we viewed other countries in our leaving cert history i.e; when the question about our independence, 1916 rising, 1798 rising etc.. was put to him he sat back and said "ah yes, the Irish question" .......... it infuriated me to hear that. to be honest, they don't view us with as much interest in their history teachings as we think or would like. as far as they're concerned we're just another troublesome colony like the US or India.

the guy from NI had a similar schooling as the Brit but there was more emphasis on working towards change and how both unionists and nationalists were at fault equally.

I've heard from English people that the history lessons in school have not changed in a long time (or perhaps they have changed very recently) and that a lot of stuff is brushed over.

I suppose in one way it's understandable in that England was involved in everything major in the world from about 1066 onwards whereas Ireland was concentrated on Brits out from about 1166 onwards. However the English system also means that unless you do history as an A-Level subject it really is not done in depth.

There was also the fact that with the whole England being the subject of IRA terrorism during the 70's, 80's and early 90's the Government didn't really want anybody thinking the IRA had any sort of political or historical case.

I know there is a push to review England's colonial past in the near future and presumably this will include Ireland. Let's not forget alot of England colonial past is ignored over there and up until recently they were probably a little embarrassed about the whole thing (especially the fact that little old Ireland got rid of them on their own back porch)

ejmaztec

kevmy wrote: »

I've heard from English people that the history lessons in school have not changed in a long time (or perhaps they have changed very recently) and that a lot of stuff is brushed over.

I suppose in one way it's understandable in that England was involved in everything major in the world from about 1066 onwards whereas Ireland was concentrated on Brits out from about 1166 onwards. However the English system also means that unless you do history as an A-Level subject it really is not done in depth.

There was also the fact that with the whole England being the subject of IRA terrorism during the 70's, 80's and early 90's the Government didn't really want anybody thinking the IRA had any sort of political or historical case.

I know there is a push to review England's colonial past in the near future and presumably this will include Ireland. Let's not forget alot of England colonial past is ignored over there and up until recently they were probably a little embarrassed about the whole thing (especially the fact that little old Ireland got rid of them on their own back porch)

I think at the end of the day, the British got what they wanted out of the deal. They got to choose who ran Ireland, in the early days. I read somewhere that, whilst the Brits were hanging around waiting to leave during the Civil War, they lent artillery to the Free-staters. They just stood back and watched them use it. The IRA had none of this stuff. Also, there were still huge British estates that were never taken out of British ownership. The Russians had a proper revolution and went for the clean-slate approach, although now they wished that they hadn't.

galah

peasant wrote: »

If you go through the German education system (like I did), there is no escaping from the fact, that your grandfather's generation let something horrific and terrifying happen right under their noses.

German history from the 1870's (the formation of the first German National State) through WWI, the Weimar Republik, the Nazi era and WWII is tought in detail and ad nauseam and you're left in no doubt as to the horrific details and the gruesome numbers of the Nazis' genocide.

A visit to a concentration camp will take place at least once during your school career.

During my time (I don't know if that has changed by now), so much emphasis was placed onto drumming the "badness" of it all into you, that very little time was left to point out the achievements of the democratic Germany after the war ...plus everybody was busy painting "The East" in a bad light.

The end result is that Germans of my generation deep down still feel very "ashamed" and guilty about their nation and have quite some difficulty in displaying national pride ,never mind wave a flag or sing the hymn.

Apparantly that has changed during the football world cup ...I wasn't there for that, so I'm still no flag waver.

Fully agree. In school, we were forced to watch Schindler's List, forced to read Anne Frank's Diary, forced to watch all those documentaries about the atrocities commited during WWII (Mengele and the like), and were made to feel very, very ashamed of what "we" did. This was in the mid-90ies, not sure if it has changed now. Now there's nothing wrong with making people face the past and not forget what happened, I just despise the guilt trip that was laid upon us for years in school, for something that happened when neither I nor my parents were actually born.

At least during my time in school, history lessons never reached beyond the 1970ies, everything beyond that was far too recent, far too uncertain, and best not be discussed. But WWII was on the curriculum EVERY year, without fail.

kevmy

ejmaztec wrote: »

I think at the end of the day, the British got what they wanted out of the deal. They got to choose who ran Ireland, in the early days. I read somewhere that, whilst the Brits were hanging around waiting to leave during the Civil War, they lent artillery to the Free-staters. They just stood back and watched them use it. The IRA had none of this stuff. Also, there were still huge British estates that were never taken out of British ownership. The Russians had a proper revolution and went for the clean-slate approach, although now they wished that they hadn't.

I don't know what you mean by getting what they wanted. They did The Treaty with Collins et al but only because they were forced to. If there was no Irish rebels or if they were easily put down the English would have gladly held on to Ireland. It was very useful to them in that we provided loads of food to Britain and manpower so close to home.

As for supporting the Free State they pretty much did. They had a deal with the Free Staters and did not want to let the Anti-Treaty guys into power. The English did not want the War of Independence to continue. Whether the Treaty was a good deal for Ireland that's another discussion but I suppose it all worked out in the end.

metaoblivia

Mizu_Ger wrote: »

Has anyone been through the US educational system? I wonder what they teach about the Vietnam war? Almost every country has something dodgy in the past.

I was educated in American public schools.
They always started with the colonization of America and by the time the school year ended, we were usually on the fallout of WWII and the beginnings of the Cold War and the Civil Rights Movement.
Vietnam was mentioned, but we didn't actually discuss it until I took an advanced course in American history when I was 16. We didn't discuss battles or military strategies, but we did discuss the build up to the war, the protests surrounding it, the draft, LBJ and how he made it worse, etc.. We didn't discuss Kissinger at all though, nor did we talk about our involvement in Cambodia.
We also learned about the Euro-American genocide of native peoples, starting in 1492. We learned about the Indian Wars, the Trail of Tears, smallpox blankets, several specific massacres of Native American villages, the Texas Rangers, etc.. All of this was presented in a matter of fact way: this is what the government did, and they used Manifest Destiny to justify their actions.

Our world history mainly revolved around ancient Egypt, Greece, the Roman Empire, and high profile European countries, namely the UK, France, Spain, the Austro-Hungarian Empire, Russia, and the Dutch colonies. A lot of our European history focused on wars and their colonizations of other countries.
We learned practically nothing about China (I think one teacher tried to teach us the dynasties of ancient China) and only discussed Japan in regards to WWII. We also never really discussed the Middle East (except for the Crusades) or Africa ( slave trade, of course, and then colonization - nothing about culture or internal political strife).
Oh and if it's of any interest, we only learned about Ireland in regards to the famine, 19th century immigration, and the political ascent of the Irish in Boston.

ejmaztec

kevmy wrote: »

I don't know what you mean by getting what they wanted. They did The Treaty with Collins et al but only because they were forced to. If there was no Irish rebels or if they were easily put down the English would have gladly held on to Ireland. It was very useful to them in that we provided loads of food to Britain and manpower so close to home.

As for supporting the Free State they pretty much did. They had a deal with the Free Staters and did not want to let the Anti-Treaty guys into power. The English did not want the War of Independence to continue. Whether the Treaty was a good deal for Ireland that's another discussion but I suppose it all worked out in the end.

The Brits got everything on the cheap and they still had access to a starving source of cheap labour i.e. most of my relatives and everybody else's who decided to move there. That's why I'm categorised as a "Plastic Paddy".

Because I was educated by Irish priests in England, we covered history from everyone's point of view - that's why I'm so cynical.

peasant

In regards to learning about other countries' history ...

Not too much on that in Germany, really.

The first few years of history lessons were spent on ancient Egypt, Greece, Rome etc, all that stuff that bores your average 10 - 12 year old to tears.
After that the "Holy Roman Empire" in all its German/Frankonian guises, followed closely by the Prussian /Austro-Hungarian empires and finally the first German Nation/empire.

Somwhere inbetween a fair amount of time was spent on French/ German/ American Revoutions of the 1700 and 1800's.

During German colonial history the British empire was unavoidable and that's where Ireland and the potato famine got a short (and singular) visit.

After that ...Nazis all the way.

Only in the last years, on history special, did we do some intersting, detailed stuff ...like the Russian Revolution, Leninism, Stalinism, the "great march" of Mao, the Chinese "cultural revolution" ...in hindsight I know why ...they didn't want us asking awkward questions about the goings on in our back garden, where our American "friends" were stashing their pershings and cruise missiles and drawing up the battlefields for WWIII

fits

My bf had most of his schooling under the 'East' regime, where it was implied that the holocaust/nazis etc.. was something the West did...

He also still comes out with some crazy 'historical' facts.. cant think of any off the top of my head though..... I think one was that Stalin invaded Germany (rather than the reverse) and no mention of the pact with Hitler. (I'm not 100% sure about that though)