Irish Language in Stormount and SF

silverharp

I don't know much about the in's and out's of this excpt that I cringe when I see SF giving monologues in Stormount to the obvious displeasure of the unionists. Another hijacking of the Irish language for political ends ?

baztard

silverharp wrote: »

I don't know much about the in's and out's of this excpt that I cringe when I see SF giving monologues in Stormount to the obvious displeasure of the unionists. Another hijacking of the Irish language for political ends ?

Theres two ways of looking at it.

1) Sinn Féin are asserting their right to speak the language they consider very important to Irish culture. They speak it out of principle, not out of practicality. (As they are entitled to do)

2) They speak it to deliberatly wind the unionist up, or rub it in their faces.

I think its a combination of both. With Sinn Féin leaning towards the first reason more than the second.

Do the SDLP not speak Irish in the assembly also?

Jackie laughlin

It's a "cupla focail" wind-up!

I wish that all nationalists would take the trouble to learn the language. Indeed it would be a good test of their sincerity.

I speak moderately good Irish but consider it rude to speak it in company where I'm not understood.

moe_sizlak

silverharp wrote: »

I don't know much about the in's and out's of this excpt that I cringe when I see SF giving monologues in Stormount to the obvious displeasure of the unionists. Another hijacking of the Irish language for political ends ?

its the unionists problem if it annoys them , in a bi lingual country , an elected official is perfectly entitled to speak on of the official languages
im no shinner but i say more power to them

murphaph

moe_sizlak wrote: »

its the unionists problem if it annoys them , in a bi lingual country , an elected official is perfectly entitled to speak on of the official languages
im no shinner but i say more power to them

The United Kingdom has no official languages. Approximately 7% of people in Northern Ireland speak Irish. In the chamber in Stormont it's just rude to speak in a language that the majority of elected representatives do not understand. Everyone in the chamber understands English. In any case, it's obvious from the stumbling nature and clumsy usage of the language by some of the nationalist side that it is not their language and they would be more comfortable speaking engish. That means they are just doing it to be ignorant.

We don't see the Ballymena unionists rattle on in that Ulster Scots gibberish do we? A dialect of english it may be but I can't understand it.

A Dub in Glasgo

murphaph wrote: »

Approximately 7% of people in Northern Ireland speak Irish. In the chamber in Stormont it's just rude to speak in a language that the majority of elected representatives do not understand.

I take it you also state the same for the Dail?

Everyone in the chamber understands English. In any case, it's obvious from the stumbling nature and clumsy usage of the language by some of the nationalist side that it is not their language and they would be more comfortable speaking engish. That means they are just doing it to be ignorant.

Really? Maybe they are doing it to make a political point. You think making a political point is being ignorant?

We don't see the Ballymena unionists rattle on in that Ulster Scots gibberish do we? A dialect of english it may be but I can't understand it.

I doubt you can understand a think Glasgow accent, does that mean they should not speak it in your presence?

Dave!

murphaph wrote: »

The United Kingdom has no official languages. Approximately 7% of people in Northern Ireland speak Irish. In the chamber in Stormont it's just rude to speak in a language that the majority of elected representatives do not understand. Everyone in the chamber understands English. In any case, it's obvious from the stumbling nature and clumsy usage of the language by some of the nationalist side that it is not their language and they would be more comfortable speaking engish. That means they are just doing it to be ignorant.

We don't see the Ballymena unionists rattle on in that Ulster Scots gibberish do we? A dialect of english it may be but I can't understand it.

Are you aware that Sinn Fein are a nationalist party?

Just curious.

silverharp

A Dub in Glasgo wrote: »

Really? Maybe they are doing it to make a political point. You think making a political point is being ignorant?

what's the political point? if they had half a chance they would make unionists speak Irish at the point of a gun.?

It just appears to be in bad taste or playing the victim card either way it's a cheap stunt, and in the way that SF try to high jack the tricolour, they are doing the same with the irish language.

murphaph

A Dub in Glasgo wrote: »

I take it you also state the same for the Dail?

Irish is an official language down here. If the particular TD comes from a Gaeltacht area then it's his mother tongue and though I can't understand it, it's his legal right.

A Dub in Glasgo wrote: »

Really? Maybe they are doing it to make a political point. You think making a political point is being ignorant?

In this case it is, yes.

A Dub in Glasgo wrote: »

I doubt you can understand a think Glasgow accent, does that mean they should not speak it in your presence?

The chamber at Stormont (or any assembly) is not the local boozer. It is important that everyone understands everything.

Why can't the shinner supporters just admit that it's a cheap stunt that makes them cringe also? Watching those goons mumble their cupla focail when it's obvious for all the world to see that they can't speak irish.

murphaph

DaveMcG wrote: »

Are you aware that Sinn Fein are a nationalist party?

Just curious.

Does nationalist have to mean ignorant? Their unionist and centrist colleagues in the chamber have shown an enormous amount of restrain while their opposites on the 'green benches' have spoken to them in a language they do not understand. Common manners out the window.

Hagar

murphaph wrote: »

Their unionist and centrist colleagues in the chamber have shown an enormous amount of restrain while their opposites on the 'green benches' have spoken to them in a language they do not understand.

Please thank them on my behalf next time you're talking to them. :rolleyes:

gandalf

All this does is highlight the absolute childishness from both sides. Everyone knows that Sinn Fein are only speaking Irish because it gets on the other sides goat and the unionists do not want to give in and allow a "foreign" tongue become part of everyday life. This is the typical pettiness that identifies itself with Northern Ireland and why I cannot stand the fact that a significant part of our governments time is taken up by toddlers who don't wear nappies from Stormont.

Until all the bigots up there stop looking backwards and start looking forwards we are still two separate countries.

Hagar

gandalf wrote: »

Everyone knows that Sinn Fein are only speaking Irish because it gets on the other sides goat and the unionists do not want to give in and allow a "foreign" tongue become part of everyday life.

I'm not so sure about that. How else can you re-establish the use of the Irish language if you don't use it in your everyday life? As for the idea that Irish is a language "foreign" to this island, I can't think of it being "native" anywhere else. With all due respect I think you are presenting an opinion as fact.

gandalf wrote: »

Until all the bigots up there stop looking backwards and start looking forwards we are still two separate countries.

So a United Ireland is on the cards cards if the "bigots" get over themselves?
I can't see the Unionists buying that one.

djpbarry

Hagar wrote: »

How else can you re-establish the use of the Irish language if you don't use it in your everyday life?

That is hardly an issue for Stormont. All business in the assembly should be conducted in a language that everyone understands - surely that is just common sense?

Hagar wrote: »

As for the idea that Irish is a language "foreign" to this island, I can't think of it being "native" anywhere else.

It IS a foreign language in the UK.

Hagar wrote: »

So a United Ireland is on the cards cards if the "bigots" get over themselves?

I'm not sure what a United Ireland has to do with this. Speaking a language in the company of someone who does not understand it is just rude - plain and simple.

gandalf

Hagar wrote: »

I'm not so sure about that. How else can you re-establish the use of the Irish language if you don't use it in your everyday life? As for the idea that Irish is a language "foreign" to this island, I can't think of it being "native" anywhere else. With all due respect I think you are presenting an opinion as fact.

Oh I agree with you to re-establish the language it should be used in everyday life. But remember the experience down here when you ram it down peoples throats as was done in the education system here for years people turn against it and that's without the political stigma that it has up North for a large section of the community.

Also note the foreign is in quote marks. The language may not be foreign to the island but it is foreign to the unionists for political matters. Again if things were played properly not to the lowest common denominator in showing their supporters that they are giving the unionists one in the eye then the recognition of the use of Irish in an official capacity in the North would probably be easier.

So a United Ireland is on the cards cards if the "bigots" get over themselves?
I can't see the Unionists buying that one.

At the moment of course they won't if the chuckies behaviour politically is equivalent to a immature schoolchild taunting another.

Hagar

djpbarry wrote: »

That is hardly an issue for Stormont. All business in the assembly should be conducted in a language that everyone understands - surely that is just common sense?

It IS a foreign language in the UK.

I'm not sure what a United Ireland has to do with this. Speaking a language in the company of someone who does not understand it is just rude - plain and simple.

Multiple languages are handled with ease in Brussels.

Is Welsh a foreign language in the UK? Or is it treated as the native language of some of the indigenous population in part of the UK? Why should the use of the Irish language in N.I. be any different?

My united Ireland comment stemmed from Gandalf's point " Until all the bigots up there stop looking backwards and start looking forwards we are still two separate countries." The implication appeared to be that if everyone started looking forward we would not remain two separate countries.

The concept of being "rude" has been part of the downfall of the language. One English speaker enters a room and the Irish speakers swap to English to include him. Nobody questions why doesn't the English speaker learn Irish and include himself.

djpbarry

Hagar wrote: »

Multiple languages are handled with ease in Brussels.

Yes, with interpreters. I very much doubt that our MEP's are fluent in all languages recognised by the EU.

Hagar wrote: »

Is Welsh a foreign language in the UK? Or is it treated as the native language of some of the indigenous population in part of the UK? Why should the use of the Irish language in N.I. be any different?

Ok, that's a fair point. But I would be surprised if the Welsh assembly conducts it's business through Welsh.

Hagar wrote: »

The concept of being "rude" has been part of the downfall of the language. One English speaker enters a room and the Irish speakers swap to English to include him. Nobody questions why doesn't the English speaker learn Irish and include himself.

If it were a case that a large proportion of the population were fluent Irish speakers then I might agree. But, my understanding is that only about 10% of the population in the North have any knowledge of Irish and only about 2% of the population in the Republic use the language on a daily basis. It is unreasonable to expect the vast majority of the population to learn the language to suit such a small minority. Forcing the language on people only turns them away from it.

oscarBravo

djpbarry wrote: »

But I would be surprised if the Welsh assembly conducts it's business through Welsh.

It does; almost exclusively so, I believe.

moe_sizlak

one thing is being forgotten here , when the sinn fein members make there spiel as gaeilge , they immedietly repeat what theye said in english and while it may be overly political , they are in the business of politics , i mean its not as if the DUP are not partial to occasional pettiness

Jackie laughlin

Oscar,
When Wales gets her freedom, that will all stop.

Speaking Irish in the company of English speakers is not a question of rights but of common courtesy and decency. I speak Irish and it is my right to do so but I was better reared than to do it in the company of people who don't understand it. I notice that immigrants here are good on this point; I've never been left out, wondering what they were saying.

I object to the annoying use of "cupla focail" by pseudo-nationalists who simply won't bother their arse learning the language. (No, of course I'm not talking about Irish speakers and learners who are making use of their small but expanding vocabulary.)

By the way, does anyone know how to get a fada here? Crtl + Alt doesn't work.

Hagar

Jackie laughlin wrote: »

By the way, does anyone know how to get a fada here? Crtl + Alt doesn't work.

Got to User CP > Edit Options down at the very bottom select Text Editing then select Enhanced WYSIWIG from the drop down. That should do it for you.

guinnessdrinker

I dont think the use of the Irish language in Stormont is an issue at all, unless people want to make it an issue for their own benifits. It is any persons right to speak it, even if they only have a small amount of Irish. The SF MLA's that use it in Stormont repeat what they have said in English so that everyone understands.

The Irish language has become more popular in recent times in the North. Belfast now has even its own gaeltacht area. The language is also been learned by people from both communities in the North. The Ultach Trust is a non political organisation in the North promoting the language to both communities.

On a side note, I remember hearing former UVF member Gusty Spence speaking on TV about learning Irish while in prison and that some other loyalist prisoners had also learned it. I think he also said they applied to recieve the Fáinne but prison authorities refused to let the awarding body into the prison to present them.

murphaph

I believe they learnt it because the IRA prisoners used it for communication and Spence & Co. wanted to be able to eavesdrop.

Jackie laughlin

Hagar,
You are a gentleman and a scholar. Thank you.

FTA69

I believe they learnt it because the IRA prisoners used it for communication and Spence & Co. wanted to be able to eavesdrop.

He learned it (as did David Ervine) for cultural reasons and because it was a language spoken by many of their ancestors. Loyalist groups such as the Red Hand Commando (linked to Spence's UVF) also use Irish in their murals and slogans.

Besides, Loyalist and Republican prisoners were segregated completely in Long Kesh, held in different cages and later, different H-Blocks. The only time they were ever close was in Crumlin Road where they were held on remand, even then they were on different landings. There was little oppurtunity to eavesdrop.

At the end of the day lads, Irish is the language of this country and all Irish people should be entitled to speak it in their parliament of representation. To use the language in Stormont is not to automatically insult Unionism, but to assert and promote Irish as a language as well as our culture in general. It is not being done to the exclusion of anyone and if the likes of Spence takes the time to actually learn Irish then I can't see any reason how DUP politicians get offended simply hearing it being spoken; it just smacks of anti-Irishness to me.

murphaph

FTA69 wrote: »

At the end of the day lads, Irish is the language of this country

Rather ironic then that your post is in english. Irish is just another invader language which displaced older native languages before it, as english has pretty much done to irish in turn.

Irish is therefore only the language of this country, the RoI as it is named as the official language in statute (that's another debate altogether of course).

It is not the language of Northern Ireland. It is a language spoken by a small minority of people there, just like any number of languages.

A Dub in Glasgo

The Scottish equivalent of Irish is Scottish Gaelic (very close to Irish Gaelic) and is spoken by a minority here in Scotland. I doubt you will find anyone over here who would condemn Scottish people who speak it nevermind calling them ignorant for speaking it. It seems there are some people who will cringe at any showing of Irish culture.

murphaph

A Dub in Glasgo wrote: »

The Scottish equivalent of Irish is Scottish Gaelic (very close to Irish Gaelic) and is spoken by a minority here in Scotland. I doubt you will find anyone over here who would condemn Scottish people who speak it nevermind calling them ignorant for speaking it. It seems there are some people who will cringe at any showing of Irish culture.

It's not the SF speaker's cuture for crying out loud! They struggle and stumble through their cupla focail in what is a cringeworthy performance. Their mother tongue is that awful bastard english. If they were native irish speakers then I might have more sympathy for them. They want to ram irish down the throats of the populace up there, just like the w@nkers rammed it down our throats down here, along with the Roman Catholic Church and a moral code which the people dared not to break but which the ruling classes used to control them. Freedom in an independent Ireland-yippee.

Voipjunkie

murphaph wrote: »

It's not the SF speaker's cuture for crying out loud! They struggle and stumble through their cupla focail in what is a cringeworthy performance. Their mother tongue is that awful bastard english. If they were native irish speakers then I might have more sympathy for them. They want to ram irish down the throats of the populace up there, just like the w@nkers rammed it down our throats down here, along with the Roman Catholic Church and a moral code which the people dared not to break but which the ruling classes used to control them. Freedom in an independent Ireland-yippee.

So if you are not a native Irish speaker then the Irish language ceases to be part of your culture so by extension if your mother only played wham on the radio when you were growing up then wham would be your musical culture no matter how much you like traditional irish music when you grew up

So those guys should learn to play wake me up before you gogo on the bodhran?

murphaph

Voipjunkie wrote: »

So if you are not a native Irish speaker then the Irish language ceases to be part of your culture so by extension if your mother only played wham on the radio when you were growing up then wham would be your musical culture no matter how much you like traditional irish music when you grew up

So those guys should learn to play wake me up before you gogo on the bodhran?

Completely specious reasoning.

Are there any SF supporters here who are prepared to admit that it's just a cheap stunt that non-irish speaking SF MLA's participate in at the behest of their party leadership? They are told to do it and SF do not like anyone who deviates even slightly from the party line.

Voipjunkie

murphaph wrote: »

Completely specious reasoning.

No more specious than arguing because you are not a native Irish speaker it is not part of your culture.