Irish Language in Stormount and SF

murphaph

Voipjunkie wrote: »

No more specious than arguing because you are not a native Irish speaker it is not part of your culture.

Ok. Should the use of any language be tolerated in the chamber at stormont?

Erin Go Brath

murphaph wrote: »

Ok. Should the use of any language be tolerated in the chamber at stormont?

Well Irish and English are both official languages, so they both should be tolerated. If the Unionists wanted to make Ulster-Scots dialect official, I wouldn't think nationalists would have a problem with that.

murphaph

Erin Go Brath wrote: »

Well Irish and English are both official languages, so they both should be tolerated. If the Unionists wanted to make Ulster-Scots dialect official, I wouldn't think nationalists would have a problem with that.

Neither Irish nor English are official languages of Northern Ireland! The United Kingdom has no official language.

A further question to voipjunkie: What about a son of a german post-war immigrant (I just used this as I know a few) who would consider the German language to be a part of his culture. Would it be ok for him to speak it at every opportunity in the chamber at Stormont?

Erin Go Brath

murphaph wrote: »

Neither Irish nor English are official languages of Northern Ireland! The United Kingdom has no official language.

Thats just being pedantic. Whats your problem with the Irish language being used in Stormont anyway? If people want to speak their native language, why shouldn't they be allowed to? Advocating not being allowed to speak Irish in a public forum in a part of Ireland, how pathetic! :rolleyes:

Hagar

murphaph wrote: »

What about a son of a german post-war immigrant (I just used this as I know a few) who would consider the German language to be a part of his culture. Would it be ok for him to speak it at every opportunity in the chamber at Stormont?

I'm sure that would be perfectly acceptable if Stormont was in Germany, but it's not.

djpbarry

Erin Go Brath wrote: »

Whats your problem with the Irish language being used in Stormont anyway? If people want to speak their native language, why shouldn't they be allowed to? Advocating not being allowed to speak Irish in a public forum in a part of Ireland, how pathetic! :rolleyes:

Stormont is not in Ireland, it's in the UK.

Erin Go Brath

djpbarry wrote: »

Stormont is not in Ireland, it's in the UK.

Ever seen a map of Ireland. Belfast is most certainly in it. People up there can have either Irish or British passport or both, and consider themselves Irish or British. Politically it may be in the UK (at the moment ); the nationalists up there should still have the right to use the Irish language though.

guinnessdrinker

Neither Irish nor English are official languages of Northern Ireland!

Murphaph, Irish is an official language of the EU of which we are members.

murphaph

guinnessdrinker wrote: »

Murphaph, Irish is an official language of the EU of which we are members.

So is Hungarian. What's your point? Can a TD start rattling off in Hungarian in the Dail? NO!

Irish is an official language of the EU because it is an official language of the RoI and our government lobbied to have it recognised as official in Brussels (at great expense to our fellow euopeans who must have questioned official status for what is a tiny language with 0.01% of EU nationals speaking it, and 0.0000000001% of EU nationals understanding it in exclusivity).

It is irrelevant to a UK assembly such as Stormont that the irish language has official status in Brussels unless you also believe (based on the same logic) that a speech made in German by a 2nd generation german emigre to Ireland is also perfectly acceptable in the chamber of a UK assembly.

Do you believe that to be the case or is it a case that 'only english and irish' are acceptable in Stormont?

Voipjunkie

murphaph wrote: »

Neither Irish nor English are official languages of Northern Ireland! The United Kingdom has no official language.

A further question to voipjunkie: What about a son of a german post-war immigrant (I just used this as I know a few) who would consider the German language to be a part of his culture. Would it be ok for him to speak it at every opportunity in the chamber at Stormont?

Well as far as I know German is not part of Irish culture

And Irish was given official status as part of the GFA which was endorsed by the vast majority of people on this island ( I can't see any mention of German in there)

The british government has ratified the European Charter for Regional or Minority Languages in respect to Irish in Northern Ireland.


A cross border body to promote the Irish language was established Foras na Gaeilge



AFAIK none of that has happened to the german language in the North.

Voipjunkie

djpbarry wrote: »

Stormont is not in Ireland, it's in the UK.

Ireland is the island as a whole everyone can see that geographically if not politically

stovelid

Erin Go Brath wrote: »

the nationalists up there should still have the right to use the Irish language though.

It's typical chuckie blather. Turning the use of our language into a mark of their "rights".

Everybody has the right to speak whatever language they want, but using it in Stormont is just a wind up and bad manners to boot.

It's a simple matter of tolerance and respect for people that don't speak the language. What if the mods on this board tolerated people who insisted on speaking in Irish?

Jackie laughlin

This thread is losing touch with reality.

I speak Irish but wouldn't do so in the company of someone who doesn't understand it.

The "cúpla focail" people fall into two categories. Firstly, there are those with not the slightest interest in Irish culture but who are making some kind of patronising gesture. Secondly, there are those who want to reduce Irishness to an anti-British taunt. Neither of these groups will ever take the trouble to learn the language and they should not be taken seriously.

Is the idea that Northern Ireland can be in Ireland and the UK so difficult to comprehend? There are Irish people who speak Irish and who also consider themselves British. There are members of our soccer team who are both Irish and English. What is the problem with that?

guinnessdrinker

So is Hungarian. What's your point? Can a TD start rattling off in Hungarian in the Dail? NO!

Murphaph, I take your point about Hungarian. Thats true enough.

There are Irish people who speak Irish and who also consider themselves British.

Jackie, I think this is great and should be encouraged, the fact that people want to learn Irish regardless of what tradition they are from. I also like when i hear Eastern Europeans and Africans spaking their "cupla focal" in their own accents. It all adds to the mix. Its a language, everyone should be able to speak it, if they so wish, whatever their standard of fluency.

FTA69

First of all the argument that SF are using Irish as some sort of taunt toward the Unionists is a red herring, as people said earlier, they always include an English translation. Sinn Féin these days are actually very eager to build links with Unionists, its part of an "engagement" strategy and is actually a big priority within that party. Anyone going out of their way to offend Unionists would be sidelined immediately by Adams and co. In fact, they care so much about Unionist sensibility Alex Maskey even attended a British Army commemoration and flew the Union Jack alongside the Tricolour in his office.

djpbarry,

Stormont is not in Ireland, it's in the UK.

Sure by your logic Dublin wasn't in "Ireland" until 1922. What a load of bullsh*t. Have a look at your atlas, there's a big blue wavy thing with fish in it called the Irish Sea seperating Ireland and Britain. Politically the north may be in the UK, but nationally and geographically it remains a part of Ireland.

Jackie,

The "cúpla focail" people fall into two categories. Firstly, there are those with not the slightest interest in Irish culture but who are making some kind of patronising gesture. Secondly, there are those who want to reduce Irishness to an anti-British taunt. Neither of these groups will ever take the trouble to learn the language and they should not be taken seriously.

Nonsense, and it is that sort of elitist attitude which holds back Irish today. Irish belongs to everyone, it isn't our fault the language was destroyed as a vernacular by forces outside of our control. A lot of my friends at home are from a Gaeltacht, and I attempt to speak it with them. They accept my efforts and respect the fact I am making the effort, they don't tell me shut my hole until I'm fluent.

csk

The doublethink and spin on this thread is worthy of the Great Comical Ali himself.

stovelid wrote:

It's typical chuckie blather.

Actually the SDLP are also in favour of this act, are they not?

Turning the use of our language into a mark of their "rights".

Wrong, it should read "Turning the use of our language into a mark of our rights(no need for inverted commas). Language rights are recognised the world over, no more so than in the UK itself, Wales anybody? The British Government also already promised similar legislation for the Irish at St. Andrews.

Everybody has the right to speak whatever language they want, but using it in Stormont is just a wind up and bad manners to boot.

Just to decode what the above actually means:

Everyone is entitled to speak whatever language they want, except for Irish People speaking Irish in Ireland (Stormont).:rolleyes:

It's a simple matter of tolerance and respect for people that don't speak the language.

Tolerance and respect work both ways.

djpbarry

Erin Go Brath wrote: »

Ever seen a map of Ireland. Belfast is most certainly in it. People up there can have either Irish or British passport or both, and consider themselves Irish or British. Politically it may be in the UK (at the moment ); the nationalists up there should still have the right to use the Irish language though.

Belfast is part of the UK and Irish is not an official language in Belfast. If people want to speak Irish on their own time, I have no problem with that, that's their business. But it has no place in Stormont.

murphaph wrote: »

Irish is an official language of the EU because it is an official language of the RoI and our government lobbied to have it recognised as official in Brussels (at great expense to our fellow euopeans who must have questioned official status for what is a tiny language with 0.01% of EU nationals speaking it, and 0.0000000001% of EU nationals understanding it in exclusivity).

This is a very good point - is it really necessary to translate every EU document into Irish when

1. Most Irish speakers speak English anyway
2. I very much doubt many Irish speakers actually read the documents anyway

Voipjunkie wrote: »

Ireland is the island as a whole everyone can see that geographically if not politically

Thank you for stating the obvious :rolleyes:. You know exactly what I was trying to say.

stovelid wrote: »

What if the mods on this board tolerated people who insisted on speaking in Irish?

Another very good point. The language used in communicating anything should be the language that is understood by all on the receiving end.

FTA69 wrote: »

First of all the argument that SF are using Irish as some sort of taunt toward the Unionists is a red herring, as people said earlier, they always include an English translation.

So what's the point in using the two languages? It's a waste of time.

FTA69 wrote: »

Sure by your logic Dublin wasn't in "Ireland" until 1922. What a load of bullsh*t. Have a look at your atlas, there's a big blue wavy thing with fish in it called the Irish Sea seperating Ireland and Britain.

Yes, and there's an international border between the Republic of Ireland and Northern Ireland. So that would mean, yes, that's right, two different countries.

FTA69 wrote: »

Politically the north may be in the UK, but nationally and geographically it remains a part of Ireland.

Right, so we should just overlook the international border and the fact that our government has no jurisdiction there? How convenient.

FTA69 wrote: »

Nonsense, and it is that sort of elitist attitude which holds back Irish today. Irish belongs to everyone, it isn't our fault the language was destroyed as a vernacular by forces outside of our control.

So Sinn Fein should use Irish in Stormont to show the Brits they were unsuccessful in "destroying" the language?

FTA69 wrote: »

A lot of my friends at home are from a Gaeltacht, and I attempt to speak it with them. They accept my efforts and respect the fact I am making the effort, they don't tell me shut my hole until I'm fluent.

Irrelevant. If anyone is going to be making representations in an official capacity, they should be doing it in a language in which they are fluent. Surely that is just common sense?

In my opinion, it is all just another nationalist political stunt from Sinn Fein and the sooner we are rid of their childish taunting, the better.

csk

Jackie laughlin wrote:

This thread is losing touch with reality.

Indeed, and you're doing a fine job in perpetuating that loss of reality.

Is the idea that Northern Ireland can be in Ireland and the UK so difficult to comprehend?

The only people that seem incapable of comprehending such a situation are the Unionists themselves when they deny the right of Irish People to speak Irish in Ireland. It reflects badly on them, that in the 21st Century, they would stop an Irish Language Act, for no other reason than their bigotry.

There are Irish people who speak Irish and who also consider themselves British.

If that is the case, then surely it's all the more reason for there to be an Irish Language Act to look after the rights of such people?

murphaph

csk wrote: »

The only people that seem incapable of comprehending such a situation (Northern Ireland being Irish whilst at the same time being part of the United Kingdom) are the Unionists themselves when they deny the right of Irish People to speak Irish in Ireland. It reflects badly on them, that in the 21st Century, they would stop an Irish Language Act, for no other reason than their bigotry.

I didn't see Arlene Foster stop some nationalist speaking irish today on "Stormont 'Live'". The green MLA used Ceann Comhairle at least twice with no translation for the non-irish speaking Foster, to whom he was directing his inane questions. She responed with aplom, simply thanking the green member for his question and answering it in a professional and courteous manner. Hardly a unionist trampling all over his (new found) 'culture'. The massive amounts of money spent on irish down here are regularly questioned and it is an official language here! It's hardly surprising then that in a region of the UK that a bill would be defeated when it sought to spend monies in a similar manner. Genuinely dedicated irish speakers just get on with it. They don't need an 'irish language act' to motivate them. It's all nationalist crocodile tears and spin. I'm glad the unionists told them it was a waste if money. It is.

Hagar

The intransegance shown on this thread is symptomatic of the shyte that has got N.Ireland where it is today. Get over yourselves, on both sides, FFS. Live and let live.

csk

murphaph wrote:

I didn't see Arlene Foster stop some nationalist speaking irish today on "Stormont 'Live'". The green MLA used Ceann Comhairle at least twice with no translation for the non-irish speaking Foster, to whom he was directing his inane questions. She responed with aplom, simply thanking the green member for his question and answering it in a professional and courteous manner. Hardly a unionist trampling all over his (new found) 'culture'. The massive amounts of money spent on irish down here are regularly questioned and it is an official language here! It's hardly surprising then that in a region of the UK that a bill would be defeated when it sought to spend monies in a similar manner. Genuinely dedicated irish speakers just get on with it. They don't need an 'irish language act' to motivate them. It's all nationalist crocodile tears and spin. I'm glad the unionists told them it was a waste if money. It is.

ZOMG! Won't someone think of the children, the taigs are asking "inane" questions and doing so in Hiberno-English. They must be STOPPED!!!

Seriously, though, what planet do you people reside on? Language rights are recognised throughout Ireland and Britain and indeed Europe. A completely non controversial issue in most places.

Moreover in the St. Andrews agreement it was pledged:

The Government will introduce an Irish Language Act reflecting on the experience of Wales and Ireland and work with the incoming Executive to enhance and protect the development of the Irish language.

The only reason to deny that pledge is bigotry. Pure and simple. It's about time the Unionists realised that Irish People are not going anywhere nor do the Unionists have anything to fear from Irish Culture or the Irish Language. Irish Speakers have a basic entitlement to services in their language. I'm sure Irish speakers will get on with life after this let down.

murphaph

csk wrote: »

ZOMG! Won't someone think of the children, the taigs are asking "inane" questions and doing so in Hiberno-English. They must be STOPPED!!!

Typical victimhood nonsense.

The member was perfectly entitled to ask his inane questions but he could have done it without speaking irish at a person who doesn't understand it. Just good manners you see.

csk

murphaph wrote:

Typical victimhood nonsense.

The member was perfectly entitled to ask his inane questions but he could have done it without speaking irish at a person who doesn't understand it. Just good manners you see.

So we are suffering from a humour deficit tonight?

I can assure you I suffer no such "victimhood nonsense"( whatever that means:rolleyes:).

Still though your over the top reaction to an Irish MLA using the word Ceann Comhairle is quite amusing.

Voipjunkie

murphaph wrote: »

I didn't see Arlene Foster stop some nationalist speaking irish today on "Stormont 'Live'". The green MLA used Ceann Comhairle at least twice with no translation for the non-irish speaking Foster, to whom he was directing his inane questions. She responed with aplom, simply thanking the green member for his question and answering it in a professional and courteous manner. Hardly a unionist trampling all over his (new found) 'culture'. The massive amounts of money spent on irish down here are regularly questioned and it is an official language here! It's hardly surprising then that in a region of the UK that a bill would be defeated when it sought to spend monies in a similar manner. Genuinely dedicated irish speakers just get on with it. They don't need an 'irish language act' to motivate them. It's all nationalist crocodile tears and spin. I'm glad the unionists told them it was a waste if money. It is.

Well presumably she had a translation of the question the member can ask the question in Irish or English and the Minister can answer in either so what is the problem.

Why is it hardly surprising the GFA commits to fostering and promoting the Irish Language.

What are you saying that in the UK it should be only one language that Welsh Scots Cornish Manx and Irish speakers should just be ignored or that the british government should ignore the commitments and undertakings it has given.

Also in the north of this island where no effort was made to support the language native speaking of irish died out in the last 70 years in the republic were money and support was evident Irish is still spoken natively so contrary to your believe the evidence seems to be that without support the language will die just as it died natively in the North.



See to me what you are saying and what Unionists are saying is just verifying what we already know there is no place for Irish culture under british rule nothing has changed.

people preach claptrap about respecting our differences and parity of esteem but when it comes down to a bit of use of the Irish languages the bigots are not long showing their true colours respecting our differences and parity of esteem as long as you keep your difference hidden.

Instant Karma

murphaph, if going by your logic, Northern Ireland is a differnt country than the one you reside in yourself, then surely your opinion on the matter does not count.

just on a side note, a lot of UK companies call centers have Welsh language speakers to help callers from Wales.

Voipjunkie

murphaph wrote: »

Typical victimhood nonsense.

The member was perfectly entitled to ask his inane questions but he could have done it without speaking irish at a person who doesn't understand it. Just good manners you see.

Good manners also extends the other way it is good manners to respect the language of the person asking the question funny you cannot see that.

Jackie laughlin

FTA69,
You need to read my earlier contribution before attacking me for being elitist. I said explicitly that I was not talking about anyone with only a few words of Irish or anyone learning Irish. I despise "fíor Ghaels" who want to exclude from Irish anyone who is not fluent.

I despise too a) those who utter the token few words in speeches and never show any signs of trying to make progress and b) those who use a similar level of Irish as a token of nationalist or anti-British sentiment.

I certainly don't think that all Irish people have to be even interested in - let alone have to learn - Irish. However, when someone parades themselves as an "Irish nationalist" and won't bother to learn an easily learned language, I think it's fair at least to question their credentials, if not dismiss them as posers.

The right to speak Irish is not challenged. It is not good manners to speak Irish and exclude English speakers present. In many situations that would also be provocative.

For the record, even the British don't consider N.I. to be part of Britain. It is for them a part of the United Kingdom of Gt. Britain and Northern Ireland, usually abbreviated to UK.

murphaph

Instant Karma wrote: »

murphaph, if going by your logic, Northern Ireland is a differnt country than the one you reside in yourself, then surely your opinion on the matter does not count.

You're on boards.ie. Maybe you're looking for boards.org.uk? Or can .ie boardsies only discuss things within the '26 counties'?

Sure let the shinners prattle out their clumsy version of the irish language in their part of the UK to their heart's content if they wish. Eventually their own electorate will get tired of them wasting time and money doing it.;)

stovelid

guinnessdrinker wrote: »

Gusty Spence speaking on TV about learning Irish while in prison and that some other loyalist prisoners had also learned it. .

I remember reading that the original motivation was to decode what themuns were saying in prison.

edit: sorry, spotted murphaph post..

djpbarry

csk wrote: »

The only people that seem incapable of comprehending such a situation are the Unionists themselves when they deny the right of Irish People to speak Irish in Ireland.

Are you honestly trying to tell me that the people of Ireland need the permission of the DUP before they can learn Irish? That is utter nonsense.

csk wrote: »

Language rights are recognised throughout Ireland and Britain and indeed Europe.

As has been stated numerous times, no one is denying anyone their rights.

csk wrote: »

It's about time the Unionists realised that Irish People are not going anywhere nor do the Unionists have anything to fear from Irish Culture or the Irish Language.

I very much doubt Unionists are afraid of Irish.

csk wrote: »

Irish Speakers have a basic entitlement to services in their language.

By your logic, all services in Ireland should also be available in Polish and Chinese, seeing as they are more widely spoken in Ireland than Irish.

Voipjunkie wrote: »

the member can ask the question in Irish or English and the Minister can answer in either so what is the problem.

It is a problem because it is a waste of time and money.

Voipjunkie wrote: »

What are you saying that in the UK it should be only one language that Welsh Scots Cornish Manx and Irish speakers should just be ignored

Again, no one has said anything of the sort.

Voipjunkie wrote: »

Also in the north of this island where no effort was made to support the language native speaking of irish died out in the last 70 years in the republic were money and support was evident Irish is still spoken natively so contrary to your believe the evidence seems to be that without support the language will die just as it died natively in the North.

Irish is only spoken on a daily basis by about 2% of the population in the Republic - hardly worth the vast amounts of time and money that have been spent on it.

Voipjunkie wrote: »

See to me what you are saying and what Unionists are saying is just verifying what we already know there is no place for Irish culture under british rule nothing has changed.

Again, that is a ridiculous statement. Pure anti-British sentiment and devoid of reason.

Voipjunkie wrote: »

people preach claptrap about respecting our differences and parity of esteem but when it comes down to a bit of use of the Irish languages the bigots are not long showing their true colours respecting our differences and parity of esteem as long as you keep your difference hidden.

Yes, that's right. The British are out to get us. That's what this is all about. Nothing to do with the ridiculous inefficiency of having two different languages spoken in a government assembly.

Instant Karma wrote: »

murphaph, if going by your logic, Northern Ireland is a differnt country than the one you reside in yourself, then surely your opinion on the matter does not count.

Northern Ireland is a different country (note international border). So is Burma - are we allowed to have an opinion on the happenings there?

Voipjunkie wrote: »

just on a side note, a lot of UK companies call centers have Welsh language speakers to help callers from Wales.

Irrelevant. Windows has Irish language support. Wikipedia is available in Irish. That doesn't give people the liberty to use Irish when and where they see fit.

Voipjunkie wrote: »

Good manners also extends the other way it is good manners to respect the language of the person asking the question funny you cannot see that.

So if you went for a job interview, it would be perfectly ok for the interviewer to conduct the interview in Polish? It would be bad manners to object, right?

How would people feel if the Dáil began to conduct its business 'as Gaeilge'?