Are Private Army Sectors Good To Join?

Ross_Mahon

Entry level positions with the various companies can pay up to US$100,000 a year in some instances, or as high as US$1000 an hour (most are deployed for a year and a half), which is 2-3 times more than what an average special forces soldier is paid.

You are required to be an american citizen and military experience.

Sounds to good to be true...:(

kmick

Two points
1) You can also be a merc - I know one guy who came from the French foreign legion. Did not know you needed to be American
2) $100000 is only 70,000 euro and you have a good chance of death/serious injury.

Manic Moran

In a word, no.

Healthcare coverage in event of injury, or worse, incapacitation, is negligible.

NTM

cushtac

Ross_Mahon wrote: »

You are required to be an american citizen and military experience.

Some American companies might require their employees to be US citizens, but there are plenty of European companies doing the exact same thing. There's one UK company with lots of ex-RUC/PSNI on their books.

Catcher86

Blackwater require you only to be an American citizen if you want to have your training done in the states. But you can also join if you attend their training seminars in europe and other parts of the world. I think other american companys also work in this way.

With regards the salary. There are reports of earnings of up $300,000 a year if you work in Baghdad.

Hagar

Let's be real careful now guys.

Putting Companies and salaries together could be seen a recruiting mercs and that's a big no-no.

slapper2

cushtac wrote: »

Some American companies might require their employees to be US citizens, but there are plenty of European companies doing the exact same thing. There's one UK company with lots of ex-RUC/PSNI on their books.

could you pm me some info if you have some please

Hagar

@ Slapper2 --- Soliciting info on the employment of mercs is a bannable offence.
Final warning.

OS119

some are good, some are bad.

personally i wouldn't touch Blackwater with a ****ty stick.

the decent companies, particularly those able to offer the kind of rewards listed above, recruit from a fairly self-selecting and close-knit pool. if you have to ask in public then you aren't from the pool that they recruit from.

Blackwater - and some of the other large 'military service providers' - will employ anyone foolish enough to work for them from traditional CP work to cooks and bottlewashers, but their standards are low and so their compensation is low.

i know of a small company based in the UK who have had about 50 people in Southern Iraq since July 2003 doing CP work, they all earn good money and have good benefits should the **** hit the fan. in four years they've had less than a dozen contacts with no injuries or fatalities to either them or those they protect, that is because they are thoroghly professional and know what they are there to do. such companies are 'a good thing', others who get into firefights with imaginary enemies everyday are a liability to themselves and those around them.

the best employers are those well used to working in the third world - providing security to diplomats, aid agencies and contractors - they use primarily 'old world' and commonwealth ex-SF and ex-Int people to establish low profile but effective security. if you aren't in that gang then quite simply you would be foolish accepting a job with any firm who offered to employ you.

Catcher86

Have to agree with you OS119. A lot of high profile companys are the ones to stay away from. There is a lot of gung-ho idiots claiming to be former sf working for these companys. Erik Prince is'nt appearing before congress for nothing.

Dirty Dave

On the subject of Blackwater, seems they are expanding their operations....!

http://www.gubuwire.com/?p=282

testicle

Hagar wrote: »

@ Slapper2 --- Soliciting info on the employment of mercs is a bannable offence.
Final warning.

Blackwater are a perfectly legal private security company.

In that vein, would you class the Légion étrangère as mercenaries?

Hagar

testicle wrote:

In that vein, would you class the Légion étrangère as mercenaries?

Why would I? The French Foreign Legion (French: Légion étrangère) is a unique elite unit within the French Army established in 1831 and therefore not a mercenary force.

cushtac wrote: »

Some American companies might require their employees to be US citizens, but there are plenty of European companies doing the exact same thing. There's one UK company with lots of ex-RUC/PSNI on their books.

slapper2 wrote: »

could you pm me some info if you have some please

testicle wrote: »

Blackwater are a perfectly legal private security company.

In that vein, would you class the Légion étrangère as mercenaries?

If you read carefully you will see that Blackwater is not mentioned in either of the two posts which comprise the post that attracted the warning.

Do not continue back-seat modding, it's against the Charter and it will earn you a ban.

If you have an issue with the way I moderate this forum you have the following choices:

1) Take it to PM
2) Take it to Feedback
3) Take it directly to the Admins
4) Take it to the door and post somewhere else where you feel more comfortable

All are equally acceptable to me.

OS119

the PMC's are perfectly legal companies, they are - in the main - contracted by governments and therefore work within a legal framework not unlike Insurance companies, manufacturers and construction companies.

thats not to say that that legal framework is always entirely appropriate, nor that those companies stay within it - in exactly the same way as many other sector are not well served by their regulators or indeed break the law regardless of the regulators actions.

i have seen nothing in the thread which could remotely be described as 'recruitment', not that it is illegal to recruit for such companies in the RoI anyway.

a question "are telecoms companies good to work for?" would probably be met with far more specific recruitment information, yet no one would give a flying monkey's bollock about it.

testicle

Hagar wrote: »

Why would I? The French Foreign Legion (French: Légion étrangère) is a unique elite unit within the French Army established in 1831 and therefore not a mercenary force.

Under the Geneva Conventions, specifically Article 47 of the Protocol Additional of 1949, a mercenary is any person who:

( a ) Is specially recruited locally or abroad in order to fight in an armed conflict;

( b ) Does, in fact, take a direct part in the hostilities;

( c ) Is motivated to take part in the hostilities essentially by the desire for private gain and, in fact, is promised, by or on behalf of a Party to the conflict, material compensation substantially in excess of that promised or paid to combatants of similar ranks and functions in the armed forces of that Party;

( d ) Is neither a national of a Party to the conflict nor a resident of territory controlled by a Party to the conflict;

( e ) Is not a member of the armed forces of a Party to the conflict; and

( f ) Has not been sent by a State which is not a Party to the conflict on official duty as a member of its armed forces.


Part e of the Article, and indeed the Laws of Armed Conflict would rule out the Légion étrangère, and the Regiment of Gurkhas as being mercenaries, but some people class them as same, going by the dictionary definition, as in a foreign soldier who fights for money.

Hagar wrote:

If you read carefully you will see that Blackwater is not mentioned in either of the two posts which comprise the post that attracted the warning.

Yes dear. The two posts in question are not in reference to mercenaries, only private security companies. The only people to have mentioned mercenaries are you and kmick, and my question ref the legion. I shall ignore your personal attack, as I fell you may withdraw it when you have calmed down slightly.

Hagar

OS119 If you have an issue with the way I moderate this forum you have the same choices I offered Testicle.

Read the Charter specifically the following bits:

If you have a complaint to make, please do not complain on threads, use a PM or take it to Feedback.
....
There will be no recruitment for any paramilitary groups whether they have been proscribed or not in the real world, in Boards.ie world they are all un-welcome.
The recruitment of mercenaries is likewise un-welcome.

Hagar

By those definitions many of the Irishmen who have fought and died for the British Army would be mercenaries.

@ Testicle Your comments and personal attacks both on thread an via abusive PMs have gone to far.

You are banned. Take it to the Admins.

Flying

There is a reason why they pay so much, IMHO it's not worth it I don't agree with Merc's and the only time I was swayed was EO in Sierra Leone apart from that they are cowboys (not as much anymore) but still it is a grey area that I dont agree on.

Ross_Mahon

Thanks everyone for the info on the topic!

The private army sector seems much less strict than the defense forces, thats one of the reasons that attracted me to it, The pay sounds great, But the downfall is the amount of stories i hear about Mercenary's getting killed or injured in a simple transport contract.

Another aspect, is the fact that am not exactly fighting on a side in a war?

Manic Moran

Ross_Mahon wrote: »

The private army sector seems much less strict than the defense forces, thats one of the reasons that attracted me to it,

Not planning on living long, are you?

The various defense forces of the world, being stood up solely for the purposes of winning combat, all are strict. You don't suppose there might be a reason for it? And how disciplined units tend to be the most effective?

NTM

cushtac

Ross_Mahon wrote: »

The private army sector seems much less strict than the defense forces, thats one of the reasons that attracted me to it, The pay sounds great, But the downfall is the amount of stories i hear about Mercenary's getting killed or injured in a simple transport contract.

Another aspect, is the fact that am not exactly fighting on a side in a war?

There's a reason that armed forces are strict. It instills disciplne in the soldiers and teaches them to cope with, and follow orders in, stressful situations. If that doesn't appeal to you then the chances are you're not suited to this sort of work. In any case, if you've no proper experience of working in a military or armed police environment then no PMC worth it's salt will touch you with a barge pole.

Flying

This is not the early 90's when every headcase went to the Balkans to be a Merc in Croatia or Bosnia.

Todays PMC's will not touch you even if you were an infantry solider (well not many) they want the likes of people in special forces or specialised units like the the Royal Marines, Para's etc or Techs or Sappers.

Again I don't agree with it and thats what armies are for, they should increase the sizes or deployments of troops and not "Outsource" to these groups.

Ross_Mahon

Manic Moran wrote: »

Not planning on living long, are you?

The various defense forces of the world, being stood up solely for the purposes of winning combat, all are strict. You don't suppose there might be a reason for it? And how disciplined units tend to be the most effective?

NTM

I suppose there has to be some sort of discipline, Maybe i should just work in an office Thanks for the advise!

cp251

I have considered joining one of the PMC's and even enquired about it. I was in touch with someone who went with one of the American companies. My motivation was strictly monetary, I might add. Although, it would be undoubtedly exciting. But I really don't need too much excitement anymore.

The problem as I see it though is that my experience is insufficient to be attractive to the kind of reputable companies that pay well and look after their staff. But is sufficent to get me into trouble by working for someone whose standards are not the highest.

At the lower level, there are a lot of third world recruits paid a pittance with a corresponding reliability.

I would have no problems going to Afghanistan, Iraq might pay better but somehow it seems a tad dangerous.:eek:

mrgalway

Stop dreaming lads. It's mainly a pipedream.

I once shared a few pints with an American who was a bodyguard to a high profile individual in Iraq (who's name and security company I won't mention). This was back in 2005.

What he told me was that theh prefered hiring those with Special Forces training or at the very least were Marine Corp snipers. I assumed that the equivalent qualifications in other forces were required. He told me that he spent about the same amount of time in Russia as Iraq performing similar duties. These are the lads getting the type of money you are refering to.

What he told me was there were many "less experienced" lads guarding trucks and buildings. They were held in disdain by the private "elite" as well as the military as they regarded them as "causalties waiting to happen".

Flying

mrgalway wrote: »

Stop dreaming lads. It's mainly a pipedream.

I once shared a few pints with an American who was a bodyguard to a high profile individual in Iraq (who's name and security company I won't mention). This was back in 2005.

What he told me was that theh prefered hiring those with Special Forces training or at the very least were Marine Corp snipers. I assumed that the equivalent qualifications in other forces were required. He told me that he spent about the same amount of time in Russia as Iraq performing similar duties. These are the lads getting the type of money you are refering to.

What he told me was there were many "less experienced" lads guarding trucks and buildings. They were held in disdain by the private "elite" as well as the military as they regarded them as "causalties waiting to happen".

I wholeheartly agree, anyone who has not got the correct militarys skills thinking they are going to make an easy buck is living in la la land and 9 out of 10 firms will not employ wannabe's again this is not the early 90's where every headcase went to the Balkans to seek adventure the Battle grounds of the middleast require a lot more training and experience to deal with the every evolving Islamic terrorist threat.

cp251

Well there are only so many ex special forces types to go around. Someone recently in Iraq said standards had dropped to the point that even Blackwater was hiring mostly 'trigger happy ex-cops and ex-military supply officers.' and 'they are recruiting more and more younger inexperienced personnel.' Hence their recent problems.

Some of the British companies are good to work for and looks after their employees but for any dreamers out there. You really must be experienced. It ain't like the movies.

Nuttzz

read this book, shows how much of a picnic iraq is

http://www.obrien.ie/book712.cfm

Dub13

Nuttzz wrote: »

read this book, shows how much of a picnic iraq is

http://www.obrien.ie/book712.cfm

I just bought that the other day,I have not started to read it yet.Have you...?

Dub13

Two interesting articles about this from the Washington Post.

Building Blackwater

State Department Struggles To Oversee Private Army

Nuttzz

Dub13 wrote: »

I just bought that the other day,I have not started to read it yet.Have you...?

finished it, o'keeffe is glad to be out of iraq, the money is great but that was about it, the conditions even for an experienced operator werent good, at least thats my opinion of what i read

Ronan Raver77

Dub13 wrote: »

I just bought that the other day,I have not started to read it yet.Have you...?

Remember the Incident in Iraq and the stories in the Irish press.Just ordered the book:)
People still referring to PMC's as Mercs.Pmc's do not do Offensive duties.They defend client base,truck,convoys etc...But DO NOT attack the enemy/terrorists..
This may change in a few yrs with Governments not willing to fund Big armies!!!!!!!

shamrockman2007

I am not quite sure who is posting rubbish on this site about mercenaries and recruitment policies. It seems to me these posts and replies are made by kids who's only knowledge is what they have read on the net or seen on tv. Security contractors who operate in Iraq are security personel hired by security companies who are in turn contracted by the US Military. All operatives are "non combatant" which is the key here. Their purpose are to protect life and property and under no circumstances are involved in combat. When an incident occurs they are by law allowed to defend themselves like any citizen.
They are normal security people who have all got military training due to the fact they are required in most cases to be profficent with weapons to protect themselve and their clients fro harm.
In Nothern Ireland security companies supply the same type of people but they are not armed. The fact that they are in a war zone make no difference to their circumstances.
A mercenary is a soldier hired to fight (a combatant . Full stop, there is no more, thats it.
So next please only post on subjects you know about or are involved in. There is no problem asking queations but replyint to posts when you actually know nothing on the subjest is the act of a fool or a wanabee.

Hagar

shamrockman2007 wrote: »

I am not quite sure who is posting rubbish on this site about mercenaries and recruitment policies. It seems to me these posts and replies are made by kids who's only knowledge is what they have read on the net or seen on tv. Security contractors who operate in Iraq are security personel hired by security companies who are in turn contracted by the US Military. All operatives are "non combatant" which is the key here. Their purpose are to protect life and property and under no circumstances are involved in combat. When an incident occurs they are by law allowed to defend themselves like any citizen.
They are normal security people who have all got military training due to the fact they are required in most cases to be profficent with weapons to protect themselve and their clients fro harm.
In Nothern Ireland security companies supply the same type of people but they are not armed. The fact that they are in a war zone make no difference to their circumstances.
A mercenary is a soldier hired to fight (a combatant . Full stop, there is no more, thats it.
So next please only post on subjects you know about or are involved in. There is no problem asking queations but replyint to posts when you actually know nothing on the subjest is the act of a fool or a wanabee.

I think it's fairly safe to say that nobody, with the possible exception of the gullible American population, believes that the so called security contractors are anything but a private army.

You, laying down the Gospel according to shamrockman2007 (a one post wonder), are not going to browbeat intelligent people into believing your fairytale.

Backseat modding and broad abusive generalisations are not welcome on this forum.

Change your style or change your venue. Seriously.

Oilrig

From one who has worked in the "Private Security" area for several years...

1) Stay away from the US recruiters, try the UK or ZA Co's

2) Hagar, Chill, you read too many comics, Mercenaries are a past tense.

Oilrig. (probably banned as a result but at least I KNOW my industry...)

shamrockman2007

What exactly have you based your childish remarks on?, something you read in a war comic? I have no doubt you are probably a student with just too musch time on your hands and absolutely no experience of life. I also take it your remark about generalisations was aimed at yourself as you seem to have no knowledge of the situation. Your remark towards the American population shows everyone here exactly what type of person you are. Have you even travelled outside your village yet kid? Please do not post comments and remarks on a subject you know nothing about. You are a fool and remember "Its better to be thought of as a fool than to open your mouth and prove it to the world".
There are over ten thousand securtiy contractors currently based in Iraq, Kwuait and Afganistan and there has been not one report since 1991 by any organisation of any security contractors engaging in positive combat against terroists.
So please do not embarass yourself or this board and the genuine people who post here with any further childish remarks.
You will now prove it to everyone here by abusing your power in you little mind so you can feel stronger by banning me as you have done in the past to people who have showed you up. If you cannoy moderate responsibly do not use the boards. Watch everyone how he will respond and make a fool of himself.

Hagar

shamrockman2007 wrote: »

What exactly have you based your childish remarks on?, something you read in a war comic? I have no doubt you are probably a student with just too musch time on your hands and absolutely no experience of life. I also take it your remark about generalisations was aimed at yourself as you seem to have no knowledge of the situation. Your remark towards the American population shows everyone here exactly what type of person you are. Have you even travelled outside your village yet kid? Please do not post comments and remarks on a subject you know nothing about. You are a fool and remember "Its better to be thought of as a fool than to open your mouth and prove it to the world".
There are over ten thousand securtiy contractors currently based in Iraq, Kwuait and Afganistan and there has been not one report since 1991 by any organisation of any security contractors engaging in positive combat against terroists.
So please do not embarass yourself or this board and the genuine people who post here with any further childish remarks.
You will now prove it to everyone here by abusing your power in you little mind so you can feel stronger by banning me as you have done in the past to people who have showed you up. If you cannoy moderate responsibly do not use the boards. Watch everyone how he will respond and make a fool of himself.

What a post! Where to start?

I haven't read a comic in years except maybe to my kids as they were growing up. I have to laugh at the student bit, considering I used to teach in the early 80's. I have travelled all over Europe, North America and Northern Africa, I can carry on an intelligent conversation in several languages, so it's safe to say I’m not a kid and I have left my village. I will go as far as to make the boastful statement that I am a well educated, well read, well travelled, mature adult. But enough about me, other than refuting your remarks about me personally, I’m irrelevant to the topic in hand.

I don't remember saying that security contractors were engaged in an active war against terrorists. I referred to them as private armies. Large numbers of armed men (as many as 10,000 according to one very well informed poster ) acting under orders I think can safely be described as private armies.


I have to laugh at “When an incident occurs they are by law allowed to defend themselves like any citizen”. How many countries confer on its citizens the right to routinely openly carry loaded automatic weapons in public for the purpose of self defence? I don’t think ordinary citizens in the US, for example, are allowed to do that. I’m open to correction on that. The thing is they are not citizens simply defending themselves as you would have us believe, they are there as armed protection for other people. Isn’t that what armies do? BTW these people are citizens of where exactly? Are these people Iraqi? Afghani perhaps? No, they are US citizens many thousands of miles from home. If they were really interested in their personal safety they would not be there, unless they are there for the money. Cue the suspicion that the armed men might be mercenaries.


You claim that “A mercenary is a soldier hired to fight (a combatant . Full stop, there is no more, thats it.” Surely a mercenary is anybody who sells his military skill to the highest bidder. After that he does whatever his master dictates be that combat or standing guard on his master.


I have no problem with being proven wrong, it happens all the time, I'm used to it. I accept my failings with the good grace that comes with years of practice.:D


I do have a problem with your personally abusive and confrontational tone.
You seem to have dug up an inactive thread for the sake of starting a row. Your first post look like it designed to provoke a response rather than engage in discussion. Your whole 2nd post is a personal attack on me because I disagreed with you and adds nothing to the topic.

Watch everyone how he will respond and make a fool of himself.

From here it looks like your whole purpose is to goad me into banning you and thereby make it look like I'm abusing my moderatorship.

What to do?

Would I ban you for the above personal attacks had you made them on another poster? Certainly.
Should I ban you for attacking me? Certainly.
Will I? The Jury is out on that one.

Let's see if you want to make a genuinely positive contribution to the forum or, as I suspect, you are a poster who has previously been banned who has returned with a massive chip on his shoulder?
Prove me wrong.


@ Oilrig As I've said above I don't read comics. There's no harm asking me to chill. We all need to chill from time to time. I don't think the day of the mercenary has passed. I don't think it ever will. The lure of large sums of money and the chance to kill with impunity will always have an attraction for a certain type of people.

shamrockman2007

Hey Boet
Allow me rectify the situation for you regarding this matter. You can ban me as I have no intention of posting a response here ever again as you last response proves to everyone how closed minded you are.
Your statement "Surely a mercenary is anybody who sells his military skill to the highest bidder" shows you are unsure of what you have said. There are many ex military people who sell their skills to security companies in Ireland as they have experience, are they mercenaries? just because they dont carry weapons? many soldier in warzones do not carry weapons. They may be issued them but do not carry them depending on their job.
You refered to them also as large armies. They all work independently of each other as each contract varies from customer to customer.
You still have not given any reason why you would call all American citizens including all nations living in their so called population gullible. A absolutley stupid remark made by someone who call themselves well educated and well travelled. I think you have proven yourself wrong here all by yourself, no need for me to point it out to other board members.
Why do you also have this pre concieved idea that all security contractors are either American or English or some other nationality other than the nationality of the country they are operating in. A large portion of contractors are iraqi and they operate in their own country. So citizenship does not come into play as you thought. These people are highly trained and come from special forces and often have more experience than the American counterparts. So what the hell are you talking about. My point here once again is that you are talking and trying to sound intelligent to other board members on a subject you know absolutely nothing about. You have alreday posted over 8,000 posts on every subject which shows everyone you have no life except the internet, you post here as you are anonymous and that suits you as you are unable to have a an intelligent conversation in the real world as you have proved yourself with no help from me. 8,000 posts my god get a life.
Remember this I made a post in good faith giving other board members information they may not otherwise be able to get and made no reference to anybody in paticular on the board. You then posted a reply to me and you were the one who made it personal by you remarks. You then toy with the fact will I or will I not ban him just so you wont look bad. If that is not abusing your moderating powers what is.
So I will not be posting on this board again or replying to any further comments you have to make so it will save you the bother of banning me.
I am not an American I am South African and have spent over two year in Iraq and now live here in Ireland with my Irish wife. My company's sole job was to protect the water convoys bringing much need water to the Iraqi people. I was one of two International security contractors and the other 12 were Iraqi citizens and also I might add an Iraqi owned security company who we took our orders from not the other way around.
Danke

Hagar

I can only imagine Boet is not a friendly greeting.

/?edit just Checked it means Brother. I'm not your brother.


Slán leat.

I am open to discussion/debate/being proved wrong but I am not open to personal abuse.
Since Shamrockman2007 doesn't want to discuss the matter any further and the thread was already dormant I'm closing it.
If any body wants to continue just drop me a PM. and I'll re-open the thread.