Word of warning.

colm_mcm

Do all BMW's without spare wheels come with run flats? I know the MINI doesn't have a spare but doesn't get run flats either.

Hagar

Those pictures were taken "as is". That was the tyre in question.
Bear in mind I'm in France, that's the kerbside tyre.

You sign an open ender credit card chit when you hire. Normally it covers late return, fuel top up or even parking and speeding tickets. But they can put anything they like on it it seems. My friend is in a bit of a pickle as he uses the card for business hires etc and now it's maxed out and he can't even use it in Tescos.

crosstownk

Anan1 wrote: »

Is that the shredded tyre, or was it replaced before the pics were taken?

Given that Hagar posted earlier that the tyre was totally shredded, I doubt that that's the tyre that led to the damage. The tyre in the pic doesn't appear to be totally shredded to me.

EDIT - Just seen your post above, Hagar - I'm surprised that that's tyre in question. It doesn't appear totally shredded and I don't see a whole lot of sidewall damage consistent with driving flat. Something is not adding up..............

VeVeX

crosstownk wrote: »

The tyre is designed to 'run flat'. Hagars mate was told as much by the rental company.....................



Do you think it was reasonable that the guy checked to see if the tyres were indeed run flats despite what the rental company told him. I don't.

However, the important thing at this stage is that Hagar's mate determines whether or not the tyre was indeed a run flat.

My whole point is that you would know without having to read the sidewall of the tyre wheather its a run flat or not.

Its simple -

The tyre visually flat, shredding the tyre & wheel = NOT A RUN FLAT

The Dash indicator is on but all tyres visually look inflated = RUN FLAT

Regardless of what he was told by the rental company this is the scenario.

Anan1

crosstownk wrote: »

Given that Hagar posted earlier that the tyre was totally shredded, I doubt that that's the tyre that led to the damage. The tyre in the pic doesn't appear to be totally shredded to me.

He did say the sidewall, not the tyre. You are in all probability correct. That said, i'm sure you'll agree that it's better to be sure.;)

Hagar

As I said there was a slight drop, maybe 3 inches, from the road surface to the rough hard shoulder. I drove off it later in my heap-o-shyte TM Citroen ZX Estate with a full boot and came to no harm. His car was without the benefit of the thickness of an inflated tyre so it dropped off the edge un-sprung so to speak.

crosstownk

colm_mcm wrote: »

Do all BMW's without spare wheels come with run flats?

AFAIK - Yes.

Anan1

Hagar wrote: »

His car was without the benefit of the thickness of an inflated tyre so it dropped off the edge un-sprung so to speak.

Are you sure? As has been said by others, this is the crux of the matter. If the tyre was flat, it wasn't a run-flat.

crosstownk

VeVeX wrote: »

My whole point is that you would know without having to read the sidewall of the tyre wheather its a run flat or not.

Its simple -

The tyre visually flat, shredding the tyre & wheel = NOT A RUN FLAT

The Dash indicator is on but all tyres visually look inflated = RUN FLAT

Regardless of what he was told by the rental company this is the scenario.

I do take your point and personally, I would know the difference but you're assuming that renter would have some knowledge of run flats vs conventional. This cannot be expected, especially given the instructions from the rental company.

Seth Brundle

VeVeX wrote: »

Maybe. But I think its a bit rich expecting the rental company to fork out for the 6K damage that your mate did because he drove on a tyre that clearly was not a run flat. Fair enough they mislead him but he should have had the cop on that something wasn't right. Anyone who's drove on a flat tyre can tell you the noise it makes. Surely driving at 50Kmph there would have been a terrible racket. To drive on it so long that it destroyed an alloy my friend is stupidity.

How was it clearly not run flat?
Most folk I know would not know how to identify a run flat. My wife (thankfully) has nbever had a flat tyre so she is not familiar with how one looks, sounds or feels. When told by the rental company that they are runflats that driving is still possible what are they to think? Any change in driving noise would more than likely be attributed to these new fangled tyres.
I don't think its fair to continue saying that the friend is stupid*.

crosstownk wrote: »

However, the important thing at this stage is that Hagar's mate determines whether or not the tyre was indeed a run flat.

I don't even think its relevant. The company confirmed they are RFTs. The owners manual would state that they are RFTs. What is someone to do? Call out the AA to confirm that they are indeed RFTs?
Still a solicitor will provide better advice than a few fellas sitting at home on the interweb!


* take that as a warning!

Anan1

From looking at the photos, I reckon the following is clear:

They were run-flat tyres.

The drop from the road to the hard shoulder was a lot more than 3 inches.

crosstownk

kbannon wrote: »

I don't even think its relevant. The company confirmed they are RFTs. The owners manual would state that they are RFTs. What is someone to do? Call out the AA to confirm that they are indeed RFTs?
Still a solicitor will provide better advice than a few fellas sitting at home on the interweb!

My point earlier in the thread was that it is possible that a previous renter had puncture and replaced the tyre (as tyres are not covered by rental insurance). This previous renter could have opted for the cheaper option of a conventional tyre rather that a run flat.

@Hagar - surely there was insurance on the rental vehicle - why will this not cover the damage?

colm_mcm

Is it even possible to fit standard tyres to a car with runflats?

crosstownk wrote:

@Hagar - surely there was insurance on the rental vehicle - why will this not cover the damage?

The insurance company disown responsibility because damage below the "bodyline" is not covered except in the case of an RTA.

crosstownk

colm_mcm wrote: »

Is it even possible to fit standard tyres to a car with runflats?

AFAIK it is possible - not 100% sure though.

colm_mcm wrote:

The insurance company disown responsibility because damage below the "bodyline" is not covered except in the case of an RTA.

I wasn't aware of this and I've read more than a few rental agreements I'll ask a few questions about this though - I don't want to get stung at a later date!

Hagar

My friend took out maximum "walk away" insurance, the guy is an actuary and not short of a few shekels. You would have to know him, his is so careful it's boring.

Since the thread started I've emailed him and advised him to request further inspection of the offending tyre. Thanks for the help guys, I know he's not poor but I hate to see him ripped off.

@ Anan1 as I said I drove off the same drop and suffered no ill effects and tbh I buy the cheapest tyres possible, ( €40 per corner) as I'm on a tight motoring budget. The wife's Merc get all the funding. :rolleyes:

Hagar

crosstownk wrote: »

I wasn't aware of this and I've read more than a few rental agreements.

This was my primary purpose in posting. I hire for time to time and I never knew this. It's a bit frightening really.

BrianD3

Just out of interest what would have happened if he had suspended/cancelled his credit card immediately after the damage occured.

I have suspended my card a few times after I misplaced it.

galwaytt

colm_mcm wrote: »

The insurance company disown responsibility because damage below the "bodyline" is not covered except in the case of an RTA.

not you Colm, but any co trying that on is a crock of ****e. You either have insurance, or not. That's like saying that cracks on the inside of the windscreen are not covered but those from the outside.........are. Madness.

I'd also insist on a full engineer's report on the car, including photograph's, and production of all the damaged items. To state that a lower suspension arm gets written off by driving off the road surface is complete bull****. That arm resides above the bodywork, so everything ahead and behind it would have been shredded.

Personally, I'd question the garage who are strong arming the rental co, looks like they know a soft touch when they see it.

The sill damage is weird, though.

junkyard

colm_mcm wrote: »

Do all BMW's without spare wheels come with run flats? I know the MINI doesn't have a spare but doesn't get run flats either.

My M5 doesn't have a spare wheel and it doesn't have runflats either and it never did.
Looking at the photo's there there seems to be some serious structural damage and I could see that amounting to a small fortune on a car like this. I have to say that there seems to have been a bigger incident than your friend is admitting to.

Hagar

I know this guy, the furthest it would go is that he pulled off the road too quickly. Even at that I think the garage are taking liberties because he is abroad.

VeVeX

kbannon wrote: »

How was it clearly not run flat?
Most folk I know would not know how to identify a run flat. My wife (thankfully) has nbever had a flat tyre so she is not familiar with how one looks, sounds or feels. When told by the rental company that they are runflats that driving is still possible what are they to think? Any change in driving noise would more than likely be attributed to these new fangled tyres.
I don't think its fair to continue saying that the friend is stupid*.

I don't even think its relevant. The company confirmed they are RFTs. The owners manual would state that they are RFTs. What is someone to do? Call out the AA to confirm that they are indeed RFTs?
Still a solicitor will provide better advice than a few fellas sitting at home on the interweb!


* take that as a warning!

I have seen alot of cars with run flats driven deflated and the tyre was able to be economically repaired. This is because of the construction of the tyre. The side wall is probably 3-4 times thicker then a normal tyre. The concept of these run flats is they can hold the weight of the car on the sidewalls for a specified period of time. The drive of the car does not significantly change especially around town. Other then the dashboard light you would be hard pushed to tell sometimes to be honest.

In complete contrast with a puncture in a normal tyre it lets you physically know that its flat. I.E there is visually no air in the tyre (Apparently not as obvious to some as I had thought), the wheel is on the ground, the car feels like it could go out of control whilst turning corners, there is a tremendous rumbling noise, strange movement in the cabin, maybe a droning noise. There may also be people looking funny at the car but all these signs can be wavered because the rental company told you that driving is possible?

Even if this tyre was indeed a genuine run flat there should still be at least a thought that something may not be right when you hear alloy wheel munching into the tarmac.

My wife has never had a flat either but id guess she can tell if theres air in a tyre or not.* Maybe there should be a multiple choice question on the driving test i.e


TICK THE BOX - Which tyre is flat?





* Take that as a fact !

littlejukka

VeVeX wrote: »

Even if this tyre was indeed a genuine run flat there should still be at least a thought that something may not be right when you hear alloy wheel munching into the tarmac.

this a motor's forum, where the average contributor is an experienced motorist with a good knowledge of most things automotive.

the average joe/josepehine getting a puncture and being told "drive on, it's grand for X miles" will do that, not becuase they are thick, but because they are doing what they have been told to do by somebody that you would imagine knows more about the situation and best practise in those circumstances.

the rental company should accept full responsibility.

Santa Claus

Hagar, get your friend to ask (in writing) for the recording of his call from the rental company when he was advised it was safe to continue on his RFT (calls are always recorded in these call centres as most call centre recording systems can isolate recorded calls coming in from a specific number out of thousands within a few minutes).


On a side note, I worked for a motor rescue organisation and the bane of our lives was BMW/Mini owners ringing in with punctured run-flats on a sunday.

Since they've no spare to change over and there is NOWHERE in dublin on a Sunday to bring somebody to get a tyre repaired/replaced, the cars would always have to be towed to their destination/home and then towed to a garage/tyre centre on the monday morning (hence why monday morning might not be the best time to break down).

/EDIT There is a mobile tyre replacement service in Dublin on sundays but the customer would have to pay them seperately and it worked out a good deal more expensive than you're average tyre shop, so not a lot of them went for that option !

craichoe

VeVeX wrote: »

I have seen alot of cars with run flats driven deflated and the tyre was able to be economically repaired. This is because of the construction of the tyre. The side wall is probably 3-4 times thicker then a normal tyre. The concept of these run flats is they can hold the weight of the car on the sidewalls for a specified period of time. The drive of the car does not significantly change especially around town. Other then the dashboard light you would be hard pushed to tell sometimes to be honest.

In complete contrast with a puncture in a normal tyre it lets you physically know that its flat. I.E there is visually no air in the tyre (Apparently not as obvious to some as I had thought), the wheel is on the ground, the car feels like it could go out of control whilst turning corners, there is a tremendous rumbling noise, strange movement in the cabin, maybe a droning noise. There may also be people looking funny at the car but all these signs can be wavered because the rental company told you that driving is possible?

Even if this tyre was indeed a genuine run flat there should still be at least a thought that something may not be right when you hear alloy wheel munching into the tarmac.

My wife has never had a flat either but id guess she can tell if theres air in a tyre or not.* Maybe there should be a multiple choice question on the driving test i.e


TICK THE BOX - Which tyre is flat?





* Take that as a fact !

If your told by the rental company that its ok to drive and you do what your told, are you in the wrong.

You did what you were told and now you owe them 6 grand .. i think thats a pile of **** to be honest

Tails142

That car is seriously damaged - you just have to look at the middle photo to see this - looks like there was severe movement of the suspension arm which caused the bodywork to buckle - I would imagine the control arms and other suspension items are equally as damaged.

This should definetly be covered by insurance though I would have thought... they're just trying to save a buck and cover there arses/make their bonuses. I doubt your man will get his money back quick but he should get a mechanic to do a full inspection and get a solicitor to start writing letters.

wil

There's a number of obvious questions that havent been asked yet.
What was the cause of the puncture. Nail, hitting kerb, rock, blowout, penknife
If it was runflat, how did he become aware of puncture eg noise, steering, instability etc or just warning light. Could he have driven long without noticing?
(Ive seen a Garda car (and more) in traffic with flat and had to let them know, blissfully ignorant they were.)
Any chance damage had already been caused by a kerb collision by previous renter and it wasnt spotted.
Seems odd puncture suddenly happening after a few miles, tyres were new - could indicate a heavy knock.
Did he give the car a check over before driving (though doubt he would have noticed any underside damage)
What about inspection report from previous return?
Seems unlikely the shocks would be damaged by a single slow bump.
A fast kerb/rock/pothole collision maybe.

Somebody may not be telling the whole truth (rental, previous renter, mate) It is a new BMW and someone may have been giving it a very tempting test spin, given it a whack, said nothing then let your mate take the hit.

BTW let him know its a good idea to stop immediately when you hear scraping or crunching noises.
ie
Keep going till it sounds expensive.:D:eek:

Churchy

Something doesnt add up here.

Im just going by whats more likely.

Person rents reasonably quick BMW.

They get a puncture a few km after renting.
(How often do you get a puncture - once /yr if even that. Say twice /yr if unlucky. This time just happened to be after renting a Quick BMW.)
Now in addition to this - an overengineered panzer wagon tyre happens to fail even when driven within manufacturers tolerances. I have absolutely no idea of failure rate btw but tyres are so closely monitored it couldnt be more than 1/100 - your average can of Coke has a success rate engineered into it of 99+ % chance of opening correctly.
The part of the road where he happened to pull over had a drop - quite a substantial drop by the sound of it.

Or - driver hammering a fast rental car loses it into a verge and is now looking to cover embarrasment by a story.

Either could be true I suppose.

Phoole

I had a problem with a rental company in Spain recently. The battery was flat and they charged me over €200 to send out a replacement. I was fully insured except in the case of breakdowns. I should've just pushed the car off a cliff, or even set fire to it and claimed against the insurance. Maybe thats what your mate should've done.

10-10-20

Here's a question for ya - what vehicle does he normally drive and what were the road conditions like at the time of the accident?

Hagar

The car was being driven on a winding kerbless country road up a mountain. You can't do over about 60kph without the risk of going into a ravine. A 530 D is not a novelty to this guy, his normal car is a Merc Clk 230 cabriolet. So he wasn't playing boy racer or anything like that, he's 48, a bit old for that sort of carry on. The crunch came only as he was parking as the car dropped of the edge of the road surface. He didn't drive along with grinding sounds or anything like that. He just drove along until there was some place to pull in safely and change the wheel, or so he thought. TBH when we saw the state of the sidewall it was pointless looking for whatever caused the original puncture.

/Edit Quality of road was fine. Good surface no potholes. Road condition was bone dry, it is the south of France after all,.:D