Medicine change

Pure Cork

wireless101 wrote: »

@ blahdyblah and sd123:
I want money more than anything else..........doctors get paid very well

:D:D

blahdyblah

No way... God you know it's that sort of thing that makes med students hated by eveyone else. If you're that money-hungry do business or even law, work hard and rise to the top........at least that way you'll make it quickly. With medicine you're mid-thirties before you've a chance of making it big. It's far too much work if you're not really interested. Mini Moose is right.... you'll either be working or sleeping for a few years after you qualify. There're far easier ways to make money....

Hi sd123!!! I know......isn't the competition crazy already?? I bet I know who you're talking about... the grays anatomy thing!! What letter would her first name begin with and I'll tell you if you're right??!!

ceidefields

Having being through the Leaving Cert and Trinity, I would say that expecting students to study Medicine at the age of 18 is a complete load of bollocks. In most other countries you have to have an undergraduate degree in one of the sciences before you can apply to Med school. The idea of being treated by any doctor under the age of 30 gives me chills, I don't care where they trained.

Just because you have the aptitude to rote learn six hours at a time doesn't mean you have the personal or social skills to be a good doctor.

I also second the opinion above about the money. If you're looking for good money quickly for the love of god please just go be an investment banker or a trader. There you'll meet plenty of goons and be happy as a pig in sh1t.

thed4king

I may hope to study medicine after my LC and to be honest i think that new system would be sh!t!!!!! I'd hate to think that when i'm sitting in a lecture, that the person beside me got into this prestigious course by doing f.uck all in the LC. Instead, while i was studying hard for two years, they sat back and relaxed! All they'd have to do is sit an interview!!!

The only way that i would see this working is maybe an interview for students who miss out by a small number of points. it seems unfair that someone would have to repeat their leaving cert for the sake of 20 or 30 points!!!

There has to be some sort of academic standards for the people who are going to care for us!!!

carlowboy

thed4king wrote: »

I may hope to study medicine after my LC and to be honest i think that new system would be sh!t!!!!! I'd hate to think that when i'm sitting in a lecture, that the person beside me got into this prestigious course by doing f.uck all in the LC. Instead, while i was studying hard for two years, they sat back and relaxed! All they'd have to do is sit an interview!!!

The only way that i would see this working is maybe an interview for students who miss out by a small number of points. it seems unfair that someone would have to repeat their leaving cert for the sake of 20 or 30 points!!!

There has to be some sort of academic standards for the people who are going to care for us!!!

Fact is a lot of people who did fúck all for LC and got fúck all points won't pass exams in college and make it as a qualified doctor. Even if they did pass to qualify as a doctor, what bearing should the Leaving Cert have on their abilities as a qualified doctor?

Vorsprung

wireless101 wrote: »

Also, I have no special interest in medicine, but am going for it because I want money more than anything else and I believe that doctors get paid very well. Do you require a genuine interest in healing the sick to become a doctor? Are either of you doing it just for the money (as I intend to do)?

I'm a final med student in UCD. I'm doing it because of the interest in science, combined with challenging work which involves dealing with people.

If you're intending to do it for the money, you're going for the wrong career. Interns can reasonably expect to earn about 70k, ie in their first year. BUT they're working at least 70 hours a week. A mate of mine is working 100 hours a week at the moment. Let me break that down for you:

- He starts work at 6.30am every morning
- He finishes around 10, 9.30 if he's lucky.
- Then about one night in eight, he's on call. So he works through the night as well. If he's lucky he might, just might, get the 2 hours sleep that he's supposed to get (as enshrined in the rules).
- He takes his breaks on the run.

If you think most doctors are doing the job because of the money, you're in for a rough ride.

It will take you YEARS to get to "good money". You have to do your 4-6 years of medical school, then depending on your career choice after, between 6-12 years to get to GP or consultant level. Not an easy ride.

On the points issue, I agree that med is a hard slog. The current system does get academically intelligent people into med school. But there are plenty of eejits doing the course who couldn't make a quick decision if a gun was put to their head. There is a happy medium - where it is, I don't know!

Vorsprung

thed4king wrote: »

I may hope to study medicine after my LC and to be honest i think that new system would be sh!t!!!!! I'd hate to think that when i'm sitting in a lecture, that the person beside me got into this prestigious course by doing f.uck all in the LC. Instead, while i was studying hard for two years, they sat back and relaxed! All they'd have to do is sit an interview!!!

Absolute bollocks. The only reason the points are high is because a lot of people want to do it. Getting 490 points isn't that easy. And don't count your chickens, you haven't gotten your 600 points yet :rolleyes:

wireless101

bigjimthefirst wrote: »

I'm a final med student in UCD. I'm doing it because of the interest in science, combined with challenging work which involves dealing with people.

If you're intending to do it for the money, you're going for the wrong career. Interns can reasonably expect to earn about 70k, ie in their first year. BUT they're working at least 70 hours a week. A mate of mine is working 100 hours a week at the moment. Let me break that down for you:

- He starts work at 6.30am every morning
- He finishes around 10, 9.30 if he's lucky.
- Then about one night in eight, he's on call. So he works through the night as well. If he's lucky he might, just might, get the 2 hours sleep that he's supposed to get (as enshrined in the rules).
- He takes his breaks on the run.

If you think most doctors are doing the job because of the money, you're in for a rough ride.

It will take you YEARS to get to "good money". You have to do your 4-6 years of medical school, then depending on your career choice after, between 6-12 years to get to GP or consultant level. Not an easy ride.

On the points issue, I agree that med is a hard slog. The current system does get academically intelligent people into med school. But there are plenty of eejits doing the course who couldn't make a quick decision if a gun was put to their head. There is a happy medium - where it is, I don't know!

Wow thanks for the good reply, you brought me down to reality! Since the hours are so long and the work is so demanding why do people do medicine? Do they have a genuine interest in helping sick people?

ZorbaTehZ

wireless101 wrote: »

Wow thanks for the good reply, you brought me down to reality! Since the hours are so long and the work is so demanding why do people do medicine? Do they have a genuine interest in helping sick people?

Are you that self-centred that you think that no one could have a genuine interest in helping sick people?

It's amazing the amount of shít that gets posted on these boards...

Aoibheann

straight_As wrote: »

We all agree that the Leaving Cert is the most stressful exam ever sat by students, correct?

Not in the slightest.. this coming from a person who's done the LC twice (I enjoyed it that much.. :P well, actually, I did nothing, literally, the first time round, pulled up my socks ever so slightly the second time around ). Funnily enough, I was repeating for medicine. I'm currently in first med. I had my first anatomy oral exam yesterday, and, though this is probably because I didn't study for it, it was more frightening for me, and it wasn't bad at all! The LC is only as stressful as you make it for yourself, and I doubt that it's even a tiny bit close to the stress one can go through in a serious situation involving a patient. So just because one gets over 570, doesn't mean they're going to be a brilliant doctor, or a better one than someone who doesn't do quite as well. I was going to rant about this, but I'm far too lazy..

JC 2K3

sd123 wrote: »

why not give candidates tests based on areas relivant to medicine rather that seeing how well they can do in subjects completely unrelated to medicine. Eg. one guy does phy, chem, bio, maths, app maths and engineering. and gets 600 points. the other guy does art, eng, german, italian, geo and accounting and gets 600 points and gets Higher C's in chem and ag sci for matriculation reqs. This is why the LC is a balls.

Showing an aptitude for learning is infinitely more important than specific knowledge in certain subject.

And expecting people to know what college course they want to do at the start of 5th year(so they could pick appropriate subjects) is ridiculous.

ZorbaTehZ wrote: »

Are you that self-centred that you think that no one could have a genuine interest in helping sick people?

It's amazing the amount of shít that gets posted on these boards...

QFT, Jesus....

Aoibheann

Oh, and the course isn't impossible, in first med at any rate. Yes, there is a lot of information, but none of it is seriously difficult. It's more sheer bulk of information than anything else. Read over your notes once or twice, it generally starts to make sense! It's doable once you have a genuine interest in the area. Personally I can't wait until we get to the clinical years, I'm all about the doing stuff rather than the learning.. :P But hey, the learning's going to be worth it in the end I guess.
How are you other first meds finding the hours btw? I thought I'd have way more, I've only about 18 a week, occasionally more, including labs and tutorials! Though I do have an online MCQ to get around to before the weekend ends!

Seloth

BigJimTheFirst it's actually 5 years after grad that you can become a GP((as you need have experiance in most dept for those who dont know))

What with all these people saying that you things such as"A person who gets 600 points in the LC would study Medicine better than a person who'd get 480 as theres allot to learn" Thats utter bull ****.For instance I dont think I would be able to get the current points but if I studied for medicine I'd 1.Put a hell of allot more work in and your dealing with peoples health care and 2.I have more of an interest in how a person gets thye flu and how its treated/prevented then I do with how to calculate how a light reflects in a mirror through a small hole in physics or how to look at ariel photograpgh and guess where the school is in Geograpy.

and thedking4 is a person sat back and relaxe and did bad during they're lc then did medicine then chances are thye wont pass first year medicine,unlike a person that tried to work.and besidies aptitude tests can tell for the most time if your lazy.Especillay with an interview.

ZorbaTehZ

If Medicine really mattered that much to you, you'd be putting in the effort right now to attain those points.
You think you're the only one who has that kind of a passion for doing that course?

Fact of the matter is, if you start now and put in the effort, 570/580 points is more than attainable.

Seloth

You think you're the only one who has that kind of a passion for doing that course?

Exactly how did I imply that.

and I am terrible in Irish,spanish and maths.That will more htna liekly tkae me donw,If I do study hard for it the most I could possible get is a c and at oridnary it would make up to 90 points on the LC.

JC 2K3

Seloth wrote: »

I have more of an interest in how a person gets thye flu and how its treated/prevented then I do with how to calculate how a light reflects in a mirror through a small hole in physics or how to look at ariel photograpgh and guess where the school is in Geograpy.

Yeah, but you'll never again get to study such a broad amount of subjects and you're not studying any of them in enough detail to make them very hard to understand or learn.

High points in the LC will generally indicate that you have a high aptitude for learning, that you're a broadly minded and that you can apply yourself to anything*.

Also, you say now that you have much more of an interest in medicine than physics or geography, but, and I'm sure the first year med students will back me up on this, you really don't have any idea what it will be like until you actually start the course.

*Theoretically this is true, however, with the advent of grind schools and mindless rote learning approaches to teaching, the LC has become a bit skewed.

JC 2K3

Seloth wrote: »

Exactly how did I imply that.

and I am terrible in Irish,spanish and maths.That will more htna liekly tkae me donw,If I do study hard for it the most I could possible get is a c and at oridnary it would make up to 90 points on the LC.

With that lack of faith in yourself, how would you expect yourself to be able to make life or death decisions as a doctor?

ZorbaTehZ

Seloth wrote: »

Exactly how did I imply that.

'Twas a rhetorical question... the point I'm trying to make is that there's quite a few students who would probably average the same grades as you, but because of the effort that they put in for the leaving, they got the points.

Seloth

Lol,I heard it was a hard course alright but hey,Gotta do what your interested in.

and you never really know until your there but I think I would do very well as I'm quick for ideas and after a few events where I had to make snap decisions such as when a guy metal patient escaped from a place and broke into my friends house and when I was sailing duinr very strong winds on a course((going for my lvl 2 at the time)) and a guy got nemonia.

Both times would have turned out for the worse if I wasent there to make the quick decisions.So yes,I think I would do well.

straight_As

I haven't been on this forum for a while, so I haven't bothered reading all the posts but here is what it seems like to me.

As expected, anyone who is a hard worker and respects a medical course and its importance will probably hope that the system stays te same. Simply put, effort is rewarded and as ZorbaTecZ says, 570/580 points is attainable.
The thing is that to do the LC, academic excellence would seem to help, but is not always essential for success. What good is a student with an IQ of 200 if s/he doesn't bother putting in sufficient effort to achieve what they want. Talent simply isn't enough. The same is true about medicine?

Conversely, those who feel that the LC is pointless in aiding in their aspired career choice will argue that the majority of the material learned will ultimately never reemerge in a medical career. For them, an aptitude test and interview seem more appropriate. They believe they shouldn't have to prove themselves in a State Exam, but rather in a course specific exam which highlights their suitability to the course.

I for one would be be in support of the former. As mentioned on this very post by medical students, medicine is all learnig. The ability to learn will result in success in a medical career. Surely, these opinions must be the most accurate and telling available.

If it were up to me, the current system would stay.

ZorbaTehZ

Those arguments like "but ill never use integration/differentiation ever in my life" don't work for me. It's (to use JC's words) a measure of your aptitude for learning. And if someone argues that one should be able to specify at Secondary level, then I'd disagree on the basis that one is too young at that level.

As to whether of not the current system should stay - I think that the concept of the LC is right but the implementation isn't. The whole situation of the exams timetable is the problem imo. But I digress.

Vorsprung

Seloth wrote: »

BigJimTheFirst it's actually 5 years after grad that you can become a GP((as you need have experiance in most dept for those who dont know))

Intern + 5 yrs with the new scheme I thought?

Vorsprung

straight_As wrote: »

I for one would be be in support of the former. As mentioned on this very post by medical students, medicine is all learnig. The ability to learn will result in success in a medical career. Surely, these opinions must be the most accurate and telling available.

I would argue the ability to understand is equally as important.

Naikon

I believe the current system should be scraped.
Someone aspiring to become a Doctor should have the ability to apply hard work to succeed in their goals.
unfortunately, the LC only comes round once a year, so it's a very limited period of time to prove yourself, considering the years and years of learning preluding the exam.

The argument that someone needs 5** to do Medicine is silly tbh.
I think it's fair that a relatively rigorous, multi-sit exam based purely on material relevant to to Medicine should be employed.
There are people in my course who achieved better results than me in the LC, who are now dropping out or failing CA/Tests because of their laziness. Programming and Algorithms/maths isn't bad at all if you actually study the material and come to College more than once a week:rolleyes:

I understand though that the current system does make people work hard, even
if it does not pay off.
Also, memorisation is not the most important aspect of medicine.
That's were reference guides come in handy.

JC 2K3

Naikon wrote: »

I think it's fair that a relatively rigorous, multi-sit exam based purely on material relevant to to Medicine should be employed.

When exactly? Are you suggesting that in 5th year student should have to decide what course they want to do?

And what if they fail to get into medicine this way? They won't have sat the specific tests to get into another course, so do they have to do another two years learning information and doing tests relevant to another college course?

And how the hell do you implement a system where everyone studies material and sits exams which are relevent to only one(or a handful) of specific college courses?

Ridiculous idea.

Also, am I the only one that's lamenting the progression from secondary school and the broad amount of subjects that you studied there? I like my course(Computer Science), but it's all too specific. I miss learning about interesting things in History, analysing literature and writing creative essays in English and Irish, doing challenging questions and learning about interesting concepts in Maths and App Maths and learning about chemical interactions in Chemistry.

PurpleFistMixer

Maybe you should be doing Arts. : P

Naikon

JC 2K3 wrote: »

When exactly? Are you suggesting that in 5th year student should have to decide what course they want to do?

No, the student should only be allowed sit the test following the LC results.
The student should attained a certain standard, but 600 points won't be required.
This exam would be specific only to Medicine because of massive demand.

JC 2K3 wrote: »

And what if they fail to get into medicine this way? They won't have sat the specific tests to get into another course, so do they have to do another two years learning information and doing tests relevant to another college course?

No, they only it this exam as a supplemental following the LC .

JC 2K3 wrote: »

And how the hell do you implement a system where everyone studies material and sits exams which are relevant to only one(or a handful) of specific college courses?

Ridiculous idea.

Fair enough, It may sound silly, but if the exam can only be taken after the LC...maybe even a year afterwards, I don't see a big problem.
Mind you, I can see how a student may potentially disregard "other" subjects such as English, Accounting etc.

JC 2K3 wrote: »

Also, am I the only one that's lamenting the progression from secondary school and the broad amount of subjects that you studied there? I like my course(Computer Science), but it's all too specific. I miss learning about interesting things in History, analysing literature and writing creative essays in English and Irish, doing challenging questions and learning about interesting concepts in Maths and App Maths and learning about chemical interactions in Chemistry.

Yeah, It can be quite specific, especially in Algorithms.
I like programming though, and even though it may be seen as cold and methodical, you can employ some creativity.
It's good that I am studying subjects specific only to my area.
I actually feel like I am "learning" in this course in comparison to last year.

If you feel so strongly about the above situation, why not do a course where you can mix and match some of the above, like Computer Science through Arts?

I don't want to sound negative, but some of the people in my course dropped out simply because it's not what they expected at all.
OMG! I C4N USE BEBO, I AM A COMPUT4R SCIENTIST!!!!! LOLZ.
There is a shocking lack of info about most college courses.
Hang in and you might find that things pick up, I can't specialise subjects till third year for example.

JC 2K3

lol, I might miss the broad range of subjects a bit, but I still really wanted to study Computer Science(I don't regret my choice and didn't mean that to sound like that). You have to progress to something specific at some stage, just a shame you have to stop doing subjects you enjoyed in secondary school.

Though there is broad curriculum in second year in Trinity, which means you can study a totally different course like Law ot Film Studies for example, and we're doing a "Computers and Society" module this year, which is like a techno-philosophy class(:p) which means it's not all technical stuff.

JC 2K3

Naikon wrote: »

This exam would be specific only to Medicine because of massive demand.

I don't see why just because of massive demand that medicine should have a seperate selection process to every other course....

If a load of really crap doctors happen to emerge in the next 10 years then you may have a point, but I honestly don't see that happening.

raver22

ZorbaTehZ wrote: »

.
You think you're the only one who has that kind of a passion for doing that course?

The bottom line is that getting into med will always be difficult regardless of what entry system is applied due to the vast amount of people wanting to do it and the little amount of places available. Granted that needing 570+ points to do med is unfair but from my experience of studying 1st med so far you do need to be somewhat academically inclined.;)