Medicine change

Seloth

JC 2k3 we were told going into 4th year that we have to really think about what we want to do when we leave school now as we have to pick certainsubjects to do things i.e To go for medicine you must do Chemistry((or atleast one science))

So there are 3rd years and 4th years wh ohave to pick nearly what they want to do,Besides most do have a strong on whatthey want to do by 5th year.

and as well when you said about and IQ of 200,Let me reminded you that IQ test dont your that your intelligent,rather that you are good at doing IQ tests((For those who dont know IQ tests are under fierce debate with the in favour of IQ vastly loosing.AS IQ tests only seem to cover one thing whenre are multyple types of Intelligences such as Social or Logical and Musical.))

Pure Cork

raver22 wrote: »

The bottom line is that getting into med will always be difficult regardless of what entry system is applied due to the vast amount of people wanting to do it and the little amount of places available. Granted that needing 570+ points to do med is unfair but from my experience of studying 1st med so far you do need to be somewhat academically inclined.;)

Yeah, the age old principle of supply and demand will always be present. However, there are a lot of doctors who are incompetent, and aptitude testing would improve the situtation. Aptitude testing should be introduced for all college courses, perhaps something along the lines of the A level system. You don't need 570+ points to be capable of doing medicine or any other course for that matter. If you're only in college 18hrs/week then you really don't have any excuses for not learning the material. Some people are in college with twice the hours and have to do even more outside.

Catcher86

bigjimthefirst wrote: »

I would argue the ability to understand is equally as important.

I think I would go further and say that the ability to understand is more important.
As was seen on junior doctors last year, they all spoke of how they learned all the material for exams but when it came to implementing what they had learned, they did'nt have a clue at first.
The ability to fully understand a specific condition/procedure and to be able to adapt what you have learned to different cases is much more important then learning how to answer questions on a specific topic under exam conditions.

Personally I think a system such as the one used in the US where aspiring doctors do a pre-med degree would be more beneficial.
Which would answer questions such as ability to do well in college/exams/suitability.

!!!!!conor!!!!!

From independent.ie

POINTS for medicine will be reduced dramatically under a revised deal worked out by the universities.


Starting in 2009, points will be combined with the results of an aptitude test to decide who gets into medicine.

It means that students with six B2s in their Leaving Cert -- 480 points -- will have a reasonable chance of getting into medicine if they do very well in the aptitude test.

Students will no longer need a string of A1s and to achieve 585 points to be sure of a place in a medical school.

After months of trying to hammer out an agreement, the Irish Independent has learned that the new arrangements will work as follows;

-Leaving Cert points will be worth twice as much as the results of the aptitude test

-applicants will need at least 480 points on their Leaving before they are considered

-applicants will get full credit for points up to the 550 mark -- the equivalent of one A1 and five A2s

l above 550, there will be a pro-rata tapering measure where every five points will be worth only one extra point for medicine.

In other words, an applicant with 555 points on their Leaving will be credited with 551 points for medicine while somebody with 6 A1s will be credited with 560.

The changes will benefit students who began the two-year Leaving Cert cycle this September.

An official announcement is expected shortly, as soon as the deal is ratified by the academic councils and governing authorities of the universities.

It is understood that Trinity's Council, which is made up of academics, has already backed the changes, subject to agreement on an aptitude test.

The changes have been worked out by the universities themselves. They were being pushed by the Minister for Education and Science Mary Hanafin, who argued that it should not be necessary to have a "near perfect" Leaving to get into medicine.

The universities jealously guard their right to determine their own entry standards. Some senior academics felt that it was necessary to acknowledge the efforts of really brilliant students who get more than 550 points which is why they insisted on the "pro-rata" arrangement above 550.

Pressure

It is hoped that the new arrangements will take some pressure of students who aspire to be doctors. It is also hoped that they will cut down on the number of students going to grind schools and repeating in the belief that they will maximise their points.

Higher achieving students with up to 550 points will still have a better chance of entry than those on 480, but will also need to do a good aptitude test.

The details of these tests still have to be worked out but it is expected their will be a tendering process and that some variation of tests used in other countries will be adapted.

One difficulty is to decide what aptitudes should be looked. The other is that there is no universal agreement on what makes a good doctor, as they branch into so many different types of medical practice.

In theory, it should not be possible to get "coaching" for an aptitude test, but in practice this has become big business in countries that use such tests such as the US and Australia. Sources expect similar coaching

It is hoped to run the test in the second term of the academic year.

JC 2K3

Seloth wrote: »

JC 2k3 we were told going into 4th year that we have to really think about what we want to do when we leave school now as we have to pick certainsubjects to do things i.e To go for medicine you must do Chemistry((or atleast one science))

So there are 3rd years and 4th years wh ohave to pick nearly what they want to do,Besides most do have a strong on whatthey want to do by 5th year.

That's bollocks. In general, only a few specific science courses have specific matriculation requirements, and generally only people who actually do a science subject at LC are the only ones interested in these courses in the first place. It's nowhere near a comparison with choosing what you want to do in college at the start of 5th year.

As for thinking that most people have their minds made up about what they want to do in college at the start of 5th year, I don't know what to say about that apart from that you are very, very wrong. Most people haven't a clue at that stage.

Seloth wrote: »

and as well when you said about and IQ of 200,Let me reminded you that IQ test dont your that your intelligent,rather that you are good at doing IQ tests((For those who dont know IQ tests are under fierce debate with the in favour of IQ vastly loosing.AS IQ tests only seem to cover one thing whenre are multyple types of Intelligences such as Social or Logical and Musical.))

I never mentioned IQ tests. However, I do believe that they are a valid measurement of a certain type of intelligence. Could you link me to some articles on this fierce debate about IQ tests? I'd be interested in reading about it as I was not aware that such a debate was ongoing, thanks.

ZorbaTehZ

Catcher86 wrote: »

Personally I think a system such as the one used in the US where aspiring doctors do a pre-med degree would be more beneficial.
Which would answer questions such as ability to do well in college/exams/suitability.

QFT. The US system is the best imo.

Seloth

JK maybe you didnt have any idea but the current ones do.Currently I'm in 4th year and out of the 25 in careers class 23 know what they would like to do.Thats not to get mized up with people chaning their minds.

and yes to the course do apply.If you dont do a science you can do Medince,If you dont do Honours matsh you cant go straigh for a bachelours degree in Engineering,You mst do another course before it.

And I am very much suprised tht you havent heard of this.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IQ#Criticism

Also the Science and Technolagy magaizne Focus had a large article about it not to long ago telling of how Intelligence varies so so many subjects that a IQ test cannot relate to a persons true intelligence.

JC 2K3

Medicine and Engineering are 2 specific courses. Realistically, no one who's eventually going to do Medicine, Theorerical physics, Science etc. is going to have enough of a lack of interest in science not to do a science subject(IMHO, I think anyone not doing a science subject in the first place is a bit silly). And if someone doesn't do honours Maths they won't be able for Engineering. None of this means that they choose what they want to do in college.

Also, it's highly likely that those 23 people will change their minds, many drastically so. I don't know what your point about not getting "mized" up with people changing their minds is...


Also, on the IQ issue, I see on that wiki page mentions of several criticisms of IQ tests between 1905 and 2006. I don't anywhere see any reference to a fierce ongoing debate about IQ tests where IQ tests are in danger of losing credibility....

Naikon

JC 2K3 wrote: »

And if someone doesn't do honours Maths they won't be able for Engineering.

QFT, engineering maths is just plain scary in comparison to the Discrete maths in my course for example.
I know a guy's friend who is struggling at Mech engineering(UCD) despite having a B2 in higher level:o
Engineering is never easy...

Seloth

You dont nned honours maths for Enigneering.You need it for a specific course in engineering which can be done by people who did Ordinary maths once they do another course.

and people do choose really early,I'm not suggesting that no one will change their mind but most people stick to what they want to do this stage.

Read it more as I'm reading it right now.

JC 2K3

Seloth wrote: »

You dont nned honours maths for Enigneering.You need it for a specific course in engineering which can be done by people who did Ordinary maths once they do another course.

Lol, you really don't understand just how many different colleges and how many different Engineering courses with different matriculation requirements there are, do you?

Anyway, the point isn't that you necessarily need honours maths to get into an Engineering course, but if you weren't able for it for the LC, then you won't be realistically able for an Engineering course.


Also, you're in 4th year, stop trying to sound like you know people won't change their minds, as you haven't a clue, try listening to someone like me who's been through the LC. A lot of people in your year might say they'd be interested in doing a certain course, but considering it's 2 years before they have to decide, that means absolutely nothing.

Naikon

If you don't meet the matriculation requirements of a course by a stretch, it is assumed you simply won't cope with the content.
Would somebody without higher maths succeed in say...a very numerate degree like Theoretical Physics?.
Matriculation requirements are the best guide to decide if you are able for the course irrespective of overall points for example.

carlowboy

Seloth wrote: »

You dont nned honours maths for Enigneering.You need it for a specific course in engineering which can be done by people who did Ordinary maths once they do another course.

and people do choose really early,I'm not suggesting that no one will change their mind but most people stick to what they want to do this stage.

Read it more as I'm reading it right now.

I loleth. So naive.

Seloth

I think your taking on the wrong view of what I'm saying on it,We attened a seminar which was trying to encourage people into engineering and told us how you can get into the diffrent types.

A person that does ordinary could and probabbly would do fine at Engineering,Secondary lvl maths covers a many many tdiffrent things where the courses only use certain ones.

And I never said that I had a clue on what would happen did I..I am relating back to people I know who did this,as well as info givento us by guidence councelors.Most people do have a good sense of what they would like to do two three years comming,allot will change their mind but allot wont either.Tell me so,what line of Job or courses are you doing at the present.

PurpleFistMixer

Seloth wrote: »

A person that does ordinary could and probabbly would do fine at Engineering,Secondary lvl maths covers a many many tdiffrent things where the courses only use certain ones.

And the maths in engineering would be far more advanced that second level maths... perhaps more specialised, but certainly more advanced.
I think it would be fair to say that if you can't cope with applied maths, you couldn't cope with engineering. Whether someone who does ordinary level maths could cope with applied maths, I don't know.

The problem is you can't predict what you're going to be like/what you'll like in two years. Certainly, some things (for example, I will never be a business person if I can help it), but you'd be amazed at the changes that might happen. I wanted to be a writer when I was in fourth year. Now, the idea of doing a degree in English is about as attractive as eating glass.

This seems to have digressed somewhat from the subject of medicine.