Sufism

donaghs

I'm curious about how Sufism is viewed in within the Islam. Or mainstream Islam if it is possible to pigeohole any religion as such, and Islam in Ireland.

My interest was sparked when someone submitted a bbc link on Islam in general, which had a prominent feature on its main page of the Sufi poet Jalaluddin Rumi.

Sufism is a fascinating area in itself, but from previous reading about it I got the impression there was a lot of hostility from people who believed they had a more "orthodox" and of therefore (in their minds) correct view of Islam. Particularly among Sunnis, and in places like Saudi Arabia.

the_new_mr

It's a good question donaghs.

In short, Sufism is more of a philosophy as a method to approach Islam rather than a sect or religion on its own. Some people (such as some people in Saudi Arabia) do consider it to be wrong. On the other side of the scale, there are also some people who take Sufism too far and think it's about wearing white cloth on your head etc etc. Something which true Sufism certainly is not is a separate religion or part of Islam as some people believe (both insiders and outsiders).

The true image of Sufism in Islam is nothing more than a pursuit to understand the truth of the life of this world and attempt to rid oneself of the ties to the material world except in what is necessary (a job to support your family and be able to live a good life). As far as I can see, it's really a description of the ideal goal of a Muslim to achieve a level of ihsan in belief as discussed in this hadith.

That's quite a quick answer. I've read a little Rumi on the net and it looks interesting. Always been meaning to read more.

donaghs

Are Sufi practices common in Ireland, and is there any opinion put forward on them from prominent Islamic spokesmen, e.g. in Clonskeagh or the SCR?

I was in Morrocco a few years a ago, where I understood Sufism has a long history, but did not really have time to look into it. Also, non-Muslims are not allowed into Mosques in Morrocco.

the_new_mr

First time for me to know that non-Muslims are not allowed into Mosques in Morocco.

Anyway, I'm not sure what Clonskeagh or SCR think of Sufism in general. I guess it depends on how you define sufism in the first place. I mean, you could say that all Muslims are sufis in a way in that we are all trying to get closer to God and achieve a true sense of the reality of the life of this world. There are some practices that are considered as sufi practices such as bobbing your head from side to side whilst repeating the name of Allah over and over again. There are plenty of sufis who deny these practices as being part of sufism. It's not really what it's about.

MeditationMom

From what I know about Sufism it is about union with God. All of Rumi's s love poems are to God, who is within. It is the ultimate love affair. This love affair is 100 times more intense and emotional than any human love affair could ever be, resulting in almost unbearable states of exctacy. Not for the faint hearted, and not for people who believe in suffering on earth for future rewards in a heaven.

The way it has been explained to me, Sufism also means a spirit of great celebration of this love, and this life. It seems to me a very positive, joyful, happy and passionate form of Islam. In terms of religious exctacy - kind of like St. Theresa's, in Christianity - it will fly into the eye of any believers who take religion to be a suffering ordeal to be gotten through before earning the right to be in heaven.

All mainstream religious organizations are ultimately about managing large populations, pooling resources for the common good, etc. In a more negative light you could say, to control people for power. None of them have much use for people already supremely happy, dancing, singing, and deliriously in love, who have already found God and don't need the priest or Imam's help. I don't know enough about how Sufism is practiced, including rituals, but it was explained to me that the above is the essence of Sufism. I'll try to find some sources for all this for future posts.

the_new_mr

From my somewhat basic knowledge of Sufism (although informed from a good source), Sufism is about half of that last post. My cousin's late father (who, of course, was also my Aunt's husband) God rest his soul, was actually one of the heads of the Sufi group in Egypt. I think that MeditationMom (good to see you back here by the way) has got the central idea about it achieving a higher sense of understanding of God kind of like a complete realisation of the truth of the life of this world. A kind of enlightenment for want of a better word (as that word is thrown about a lot these days).

It's not done through dancing (although I can't truthfully say whether this is allowed or not) but more out of contemplation and reflection. I can't remember who said it or when but I do remember of some people who had reached such a high degree of happiness through religion that they said that the kings of the world would fight them for it using swords if they knew what they felt (as opposed for just land or money).

It is definitely about achieving this higher sense of realisation and happiness through the relationship with God. I think a Sufi saying/motto is "He who tastes it, knows" (rough translation).

I've been meaning to read some Rumi for ages but just never got round to it. I don't think he would have been talking about God being within though as this is a very alien concept in Islam as He is considered to be a separate being to us.

Sufism is something that interests me a lot. That kind of realisation of truth sounds very appealing. It's one thing to know but quite another to know it.

Oh, and for sure there's no need for an Imam to get closer to God. Although we can use scholars to obtain knowledge etc, one's relationship to God is 100% personal. I think I've said this before a few times but it's so good it bears mentioning again

It's how in the Quran, God highlights the fact that there's to be no link when it comes to the direction connection between God and a worshipper. In many verses in the Quran, whenever the Prophet Mohamed (peace be upon him) had been asked of something (or would be asked), God would say "They will ask thee about..." and would then say "Say: ..." instructing the Prophet in what to say. For example:

Al-Baqara:219
"they will ask thee about intoxicants and games of chance. Say: "In both there is great evil as well as some benefit for man; but the evil which they cause is greater than the benefit which they bring.""

Al-Baqara:220
"And they will ask thee about [how to deal with] orphans. Say: "To improve their condition is best.""

Al-A'raf: 187
"they will ask thee [O Prophet] about the Last Hour: "When will it come to pass?" Say: "Verily, knowledge thereof rests with my Sustainer alone. None but He will reveal it in its time. Heavily will it weigh on the heavens and the earth; [and] it will not fall upon you otherwise than of a sudden." they will ask thee - as if thou couldst gain insight into this [mystery] by dint of persistent inquiry! Say: "Knowledge thereof rests with my Sustainer alone; but [of this] most people are unaware.""

But in the following case, God highlights how there is to be no middle man between an individual and God by not saying "Say: ".

Al-Baqara:186
"And if My servants ask thee about Me - behold, I am near; I respond to the call of him who calls, whenever he calls unto Me: let them, then, respond unto Me, and believe in Me, so that they might follow the right way."

Beautiful.

MeditationMom

by the-new-mr -
Al-Baqara:186
"And if My servants ask thee about Me - behold, I am near; I respond to the call of him who calls, whenever he calls unto Me: let them, then, respond unto Me, and believe in Me, so that they might follow the right way."

Beautiful.

Yes. very beautiful.

by the-new-mr - It's not done through dancing

Maybe it is a different group but aren't the dervish dancers who keep twirling and twirling in big white coats with long skirt that fly out, Sufis? I was told it was their meditation and it is quit difficult to do it for as long and as precisely as they do it. It is not dancing in the sense we dance as a mating ritual, if you will, but it is to very lively music and mostly done by men, I think.

by the-new-mr - I don't think he would have been talking about God being within though as this is a very alien concept in Islam as He is considered to be a separate being to us.

Is that really true? Isn't God closer to us than our jugular vein? Would you say the ocean is a separate being from the wave?

DublinWriter

donaghs wrote: »

I'm curious about how Sufism is viewed in within the Islam. Or mainstream Islam if it is possible to pigeohole any religion as such, and Islam in Ireland.

I spoke to a few Saudis about them years ago. Basically they are viewed as 'heretical' within the Shi'a Muslim community. I'm not sure the Sunni's are that fond of them either.

Although the Sunni Qu'ali singer Nusrat Faheh Ali Khan used to get audiences from all walks of the Muslim spectrum when he played in the UK.

MeditationMom

by DublinWriter - "How well we know what a profitable superstition this fable of Christ has been for us" - Pope Leo X (1513-1521)

?

DublinWriter

MeditationMom wrote: »

?

I've been asked to explain my sig to you by a mod, so here goes.

Pope Leo X, born Giovanni di Lorenzo de' Medici (11 December 1475 – 1 December 1521) was Pope from 1513 to his death. He is known primarily for his papal bull against Martin Luther.

I reproduce one of his most famous quotes in my signature in order to provoke thought on the part of those who read it. How you decide to interpret it is your choice.

MeditationMom

Thank You DublinWriter. I'll have to read up on this Pope to learn more.

Your signature reminded me of a very short and unfinished conversation I had with an old friend. A few years ago this very well read, and highly intelligent friend of ours brought up the idea that Jesus may not have existed. This friend is not of the gullible type, and does his research. But... he does happen to be Jewish (although not practicing, not even with keeping the Sabath) Nonetheless, he is a truth seeker of the highest caliber and whatever he reads, thinks about, or mentions is of great interest to all of us. We miss him now that he is dead. He was very inspiring. Truth was everything to him.

He died before I could have a longer discussion with him about what his sources are on the subject. I thought your signature quote may have some relevance. It reminded me of another speculation - that Lao Tzu also may have been fictitious. The idea basically being that a true teacher, in the effort to avoid adulation, persecution, etc invented Lao Tsu, or even Jesus, in order to deliver the teachings indirectly.

It is hard for me to imagine that Jesus didn't exist, since there seems to be so much historical evidence, but I try to keep an open mind. Also, I think I have read somewhere that Muslims believe (someone please correct me on this or elaborate if they know more) that the crucifixion/ascendance was an inner meditation experience Jesus described to his apostles at some point - the description of of his enlightenment experience, basically - and not an actual event. Once again - I can imagine this to be true, yet wonder about Roman Historical documentation of Pilate's Jesus trial etc.

Of course, both could be true also. His "crucifixion" (pre-enlightenment suffering and test) and ascendance upwards into the light of heaven as an enlightenment experience not only prepared him for his real crucifixion but also made him aware that it was his destiny in the real world.

Be it all as it may - in my opinion it is the teachings in the end that matter. Be that Jesus' teachings of the Golden Rule, which is also found in the Torah, the Koran, Buddhism, the Upanishads etc.

It is universal truth that regular mortals follow out of faith, morals or many other reasons, and that other mortals go against, but that enlightened ones cannot go against because they know we are all one. What we do to others we do to ourselves. Kindness becomes logical and scientific. And they will die for it because denying it out of convenience becomes as impossible for them as it was for Galileo to deny that the earth was revolving around the sun.

This truth of all of their teachings is more important than all the details of their lives that all the religious branches always fight so much about.

It was very surprising to me to read of a Pope announcing Jesus was a legend - but from what you write I guess he would't represent whoever is postulating the possibility of a non-existing Jesus. The mystery continues

Schuhart

MeditationMom wrote: »

It was very surprising to me to read of a Pope announcing Jesus was a legend - but from what you write I guess he would't represent whoever is postulating the possibility of a non-existing Jesus. The mystery continues

I don’t know if these few links are of any interest. Inevitably, as you probably guess, those Papal quotes are contested and it seems to be said that they actually come from a 16th century satirical work by a guy called John Bale called “The Pageant of the Popes”. I simply don’t know, but I do accept that we all tend to accept evidence that supports the view we came in with.

On the crucifixion, from what I can gather, the Islamic account is that the event took place, but Jesus was replaced by a doppelganger.

In the first place, we would like to stress that Muslims believe that Jesus (peace and blessings be upon him) was not crucified. Allah saved and raised him, and someone else was crucified in his place.

MeditationMom

Thank you for the links Schuhart.

This "true knowledge" mentioned in the Koran about Jesus not having been crucified - even a Christian Scientist would tell you "in truth, he was not crucified but taken up to God". It is a spiritual statement, from spiritual understanding, from "true knowledge" about reality. An understanding that our senses fool us, that we are victims of Maya (the Hindu statement that all life is illusion), etc. It does not mean that the crucifixion - historically, in the material world- didn't happen.

And - IT DOESN'T MATTER - all that matters is that we don't try to destroy each other in our blindness and ignorance. All the enlightened ones said the same thing - Jesus, Mohammed, Buddha, Krishna, Moses, all of them (bless them all) and countless other, less well known ones. Then the people that follow who think they understand, but simply don't know, be they great scholars or popes, fight with each other over what the enlightened ones "meant", usually in order to solidify their own power. And on and on it goes - the blind fighting with the blind.

Whether you are a blind Christian, Muslim, Hindu, Buddhist, Jew or even Atheist- it doesn't matter. Religious people believe things that may or may not have happened in the past, or in being(s) they have no scientific proof for. Atheist believe only "in what they can see and what can be proven". They may turn out to be fooled the longest. At least religious people already have the ability to consider the possibility of totally illogical and crazy ideas.

Only people like Jesus, Moahmmed, etc, look deeply within themselves for the truth. And even on that inward path there are hundreds of delusions disguised as truth, before truth is revealed. Truth is not something anyone can possibly imagine, understand, be taught, or even believe when they discover it, leave alone describe. All Jesus said about it is that the kingdom of heaven is within, and that we shall know the truth and it will set us free. Most likely there is something similar in the Qu'ran.

May we all find our way home.

Schuhart

MeditationMom wrote: »

Whether you are a blind Christian, Muslim, Hindu, Buddhist, Jew or even Atheist- it doesn't matter.

Would this a moment for that line ‘if you meet Buddha on the road, kill him’, and extending it to cover the other rest?

MeditationMom wrote: »

Atheist believe only "in what they can see and what can be proven".

I disagree that this is necessarily what atheism is about. I think you’re confusing the idea of pointing out how little we can be certain of with thinking that’s all that is ‘believed’. We can hardly get out of the bed in the morning without, of necessity, taking an awful lot of stuff on trust.

Does atheism not help to point out that no religion is real? Isn’t expecting it to be real what obstructs seeing its significance?

MeditationMom wrote: »

May we all find our way home.

If home is something to be found.

MeditationMom

by Schuhart - Isn’t expecting it to be real what obstructs seeing its significance?

Brilliant! I stand corrected. That is what I meant by blindness.

by Schuhart - If home is something to be found.

If a person has lost heart, or has lost his or her heart, or lost the way, or lost his center or "home", it needs to be found again, although it is right where it was left. Never lost in the first place, really, and still - finding it is life's work.

"That which is an absence in a young child, becomes a presence in a sage."

by Schuhart - Would this be a moment for that line ‘if you meet Buddha on the road, kill him’, and extending it to cover the other rest?

Not a bad idea. Our pre-occupation with our heros, saints, teachers - no matter how great they are, often prevents us from looking at what is. To be present to life is to be present to the divine. Not to be present is the only sin.

InFront

MeditationMom wrote: »

Maybe it is a different group but aren't the dervish dancers who keep twirling and twirling in big white coats with long skirt that fly out, Sufis? I was told it was their meditation and it is quit difficult to do it for as long and as precisely as they do it.

In many people's eyes yes, its synonymous with whirling dervishes, dancing and becoming almost intoxicated with chanting and having mystical transcendent experiences, I don't think that is necessarily in the true spirit of the original Sufi tradition at all, which is more to do with spiritual enlightenment without bid'ahs (innovations) which helps strengthen ones iman (deep inner faith).

Is that really true? Isn't God closer to us than our jugular vein?

Not in the sense that Allah is physically within us, I don't think. Rather that submission to Allah and love of Him is deeply embedded within us, perhaps.

MeditationMom

I found a lot of sufi dancing clips on YouTube, Chechen, Turkish, Arabic, Osho Commune, all over the world. It is different everywhere. Culture is so much part of religious rituals. The original idea and intention often lost.

by InFront - Not in the sense that Allah is physically within us, I don't think. Rather that submission to Allah and love of Him is deeply embedded within us, perhaps.

Nicely put. Maybe both is true, since Allah is who you think he is until you meet him and find out what is true about him and what is true about you.

Asiaprod

Nice thread, I have always been interested in the Sufi way. No disrespect intended, this way is frequently studied by many Buddhist I know.

wes

Asiaprod wrote: »

Nice thread, I have always been interested in the Sufi way. No disrespect intended, this way is frequently studied by many Buddhist I know.

Well, I know that Sufism is influenced by Buddhism and vice versa. So it really shouldn't offend anyone.

the_new_mr

I can see this thread becoming one of my favourites on this forum. Apologies to everyone for my absence recently. Real life has been (and continues to be) extremely hectic. So, I decided to set aside a few hours for foruming (it's a new verb) this evening

MeditationMom wrote:

Maybe it is a different group but aren't the dervish dancers who keep twirling and twirling in big white coats with long skirt that fly out, Sufis?

As InFront has already pointed out, these guys do identify themselves as Sufis but I don't think they're in keeping with what true Sufism is all about. I actually attended one of these shows once and it was certainly interesting. I wonder how much it has to do with meditation and how much it has to do with the weird feeling you get in your brain when you keep spinning as we all did as children? Could it be something as simple as endorphins entering your system upon rigorous physical activity coupled with an already present expectation?

My understanding (after long conversations with my cousin whose father was the head of the main Sufi group in Egypt years ago) is that Sufism is about the pursuit of the realisation of the truth that is talked about in the Quran (and in previous scriptures). I guess you could say it's the Islamic version of enlightenment. Really, all it seems to me is a word for this realisation and I don't like the idea that it has a word because when it has a word, then rules may tend to appear that weren't there in the first place if you know what I mean?

This whole subject of learning to be completely independent of the worldly life is something that has become extremely interesting to me over recent years. Of course, we all sin from time to time and although we should all strive to sin as little as possible, it is inevitable. The main thing is that the sins we sin aren't too bad and that we ask God's forgiveness and try our best not to do them anymore.

Thank God, I can say that I have noticed a progressive improvement in many areas within myself (although I am of course still far from perfect and am no angel). But I can also say that the part that seems elusive to me is this complete realisation of the truth of the life of this world to the point that nothing of the worldly pleasures (even if they are lawful) holds any appeal except that it be a means to an end with that end being pleasing God.

Things like money and wealth don't hold much appeal for me anymore but I know I still like to have a cool computer game or a nice car and, unfortunately, you need money to obtain such things. I remind and comfort myself that even some of the companions of the Prophet Mohamed (peace be upon him) were obsessed with horses to the extent that they used to ask the Prophet if there would be horses in heaven. I'm not there yet and I may never reach it. Maybe I'm not supposed to. It's so difficult to achieve this. Much harder than I thought it would be. Bit by bit I guess. I'm sure it has a lot to do with age.

MeditationMom wrote:

InFront wrote:

MeditationMom wrote:

Is that really true? Isn't God closer to us than our jugular vein?

Not in the sense that Allah is physically within us, I don't think. Rather that submission to Allah and love of Him is deeply embedded within us, perhaps.

Nicely put. Maybe both is true, since Allah is who you think he is until you meet him and find out what is true about him and what is true about you.

I think the verse describes more about how He knows everything about you and is with you in any trouble. I guess none of us know God completely now and we may never do.

MeditationMom

Here is a great book on Sufism. It is called Love is a Fire, by LLewwellyn Vaughn-Lee. ISBN 1-890350-03-6

Why do we have this presumption that we cannot know God in this life? Is that written in any scripture?

God is quite knowable.

To me this "he is closer than our jugular vein" means that we are like fish swimming in the ocean. One group - faithful believers - are swimming around praising the ocean and devote their lives to glorifying the ocean. And they are quite happy and living a higher purpose. Other fish - atheists - are saying - you fools - there is no such thing, or at least no proof for anything like what you call ocean. They are also happy since they don't have to follow as many rules as the devoted fish. Many groups of fish of course are arguing about "which ocean is the right one" and "which rules are the right ones to follow to someday be with the ocean".

Then there are the fish who decide to go look for the ocean - and can't find it. It is very, very hard. Then one day they get washed onto a beach, pulled out by a fishing line, or in silly exuberance or carelessness, jump out.

As they return to the ocean - they now try to teach the other fish that the ocean is indeed real, but not in the way they think; that it is what sustains them; that it is "closer to them than their jugular vein"; that it is far more glorious than they can imagine, and always with them.

They will be misunderstood, maybe become the cause of yet another religion, but they are the ones who know the ocean. This "knowing" which remains full of mystery is a source of infinite bliss, joy, celebration and love in the form of gratitude. This is true glorification. Death is no more feared.

Knowing God is a step beyond, for example, knowing Physics. The more you know about Physics or God, the more you know, that you don't know. As far as God goes, in a total moment of "don't know", a moment of total surrender and trust, sometimes truth is revealed to the living, not because of, or in spite of their efforts, but by the ultimate law of love that "re-unites" what has never been separated in the first place. After that the "not knowing" becomes infinite and eternal and one is one with God. It is very different from the human experience of not knowing something. This "not knowing" knows all.

the_new_mr

Good read. Thanks for that MeditationMom.

Food for thought.