Westmoreland Street

markpb

Anyone who has driven through Westmoreland St in the evening rush hour will know how bad it can be, queues of buses at the stops, queues of buses waiting to pull up at the stops, queues of buses trying to get away from the buses but blocked by the buses waiting to get in. I wonder would it be possible to stop pretending this is a real street and treat it as the bus depot it really is?

Would it be possible to build a second footpath about 4m out from the existing footpath and extend it all the way from College Green to 100m before Ashton Quay. Buses turning left onto Ashton Quay would load/unload on the inner footpath, all the others will load/unload on the outer footpath. With proper pedestrian crossings at the middle and end, it would be safe for pedestrians to use. The only problems I can see are cars turning left onto Fleet Street (although this could be prohibited during the evening rush hour) and the problem of where bus stops should be located since buses can't overtake in the bays.

Thoughts?

murphaph

A simple and elegant idea. So it won't see the light of day anytime soon!

It's high time proper bus facilities were built in this city, both for passengers, drivers and other road users so we all know where we stand. Westmoreland Street is one huge waste of roadspace. How many lanes given over to the private car?

markf909

Great idea, something like this happens on Market St. in San Francisco, certain buses only board from an island while others board from the path.

I'd also like to see the car parking spaces on Stephens green north go also to allow for more bus stops.

We have the case of buses queing to get past these cars and then into only a small area to pick up (invariably customers have to walk onto the road to board).

godtabh

markpb wrote: »

Would it be possible to build a second footpath about 4m out from the existing footpath and extend it all the way from College Green to 100m before Ashton Quay. Buses turning left onto Ashton Quay would load/unload on the inner footpath, all the others will load/unload on the outer footpath. With proper pedestrian crossings at the middle and end, it would be safe for pedestrians to use. The only problems I can see are cars turning left onto Fleet Street (although this could be prohibited during the evening rush hour) and the problem of where bus stops should be located since buses can't overtake in the bays.

Thoughts?

If you get a road safety audit done on that on of the key concerns would be lance confusion. Cars and people not used to the city will end up in the bus lane when they shouldnt.

murphaph

kearnsr wrote: »

If you get a road safety audit done on that on of the key concerns would be lance confusion. Cars and people not used to the city will end up in the bus lane when they shouldnt.

Eh? You put signs up like any bus lane. Just off street bus stations (effectively what this would become) are common as muck around Europe. Why would they be more dangerous here? If it's down to our shockingly poor driver training and testing regime, coupled to our almost complete lack of enforcement of various Road Traffic acts and ammendments-well that's a different issue. Moronic drivers need removing from the streets.

tampopo

Yeah, I like that idea of setting aside some of Westmoreland St. for alighting and disembarking passengers. It's about 5 or 6 lanes wide, yet being fed by two lane roads, College Green and Pearse St.


I was in London about 5 years ago, and outside Victoria Station there is an open area in front of the station set aside for buses and taxis.

There are a couple of bus only traffic lights that I know of, Coldcut road coming in towards town, and the Old Lucan Rd, by Woodies townward bound.
Surely something could be done? Then again, PP was given for a big carpark in Temple Bar (duh) so that would have to be protected/access via Fleet St.

KC61

kearnsr wrote: »

If you get a road safety audit done on that on of the key concerns would be lance confusion. Cars and people not used to the city will end up in the bus lane when they shouldnt.

Given that the long term plan for Westmoreland Street is for it to become a car free zone that issue should be consigned to history.

markpb

tampopo wrote: »

Then again, PP was given for a big carpark in Temple Bar (duh) so that would have to be protected/access via Fleet St.

Access to Fleet street is one of the main problems I have with the plan. Assuming Google Maps is right, most traffic for Templebar could be routed along Ashton Quay and down Ashton Place but that leaves Prices Lane and Fleet St between WML and Prices Lane inaccessible.

The other main problem are buses that park there (at the end of the route) or have an excessive amount of dwell time, Aircoach would be an obvious example. If they could be confined to the outer bus lane it wouldn't be too bad but other buses would still have to manoeuver into traffic to get past them. Perhaps they could be confined to the first section of the inner bus lane but they would have problems getting out and also buses coming from Dame St and turning left onto Ashton Quay would have problems getting past them.

And that's ignoring the issue of dwell time entirely but perhaps thats an issue already. Perhaps it could be extended to create three bus lanes and one lane of general traffic?

BendiBus

I'm hardly ever pedantic but it's Aston, not Ashton.

Apologies for interfering in the thread, but that one and Chapelizard for some reason drive me mad

godtabh

murphaph wrote: »

Eh? You put signs up like any bus lane. Just off street bus stations (effectively what this would become) are common as muck around Europe. Why would they be more dangerous here? If it's down to our shockingly poor driver training and testing regime, coupled to our almost complete lack of enforcement of various Road Traffic acts and ammendments-well that's a different issue. Moronic drivers need removing from the streets.

You've summed up why it wont work

markpb

I had a quick look at the location yesterday and spotted a few more problems. I think kearnsr has a point but it could be reduced by starting a bus lane on the inner lane at College Green (ie just after the pedestrian crossing) and having it sweep wide to cover the two lanes as you approach WML St. The lane could be painted red to make it more obvious. Overhead gantries would be more visible but I can't see anyone going for them in the city centre

The other problem I noticed was that it would be awkward for car drivers turning right onto Aston (thanks Bendi! ) Quay and having to cross a bus lane which is going straight ahead.

KC61

I think again that you are all missing the point that Dame Street (east of Trinity Street), College Green, College Street, D'Olier Street, Westmoreland Street are (under the current DCC plan) to be public transport only zones.

Therefore cars will, in the longer term, not enter into the equation.

markpb

I realise that. I just don't believe it'll happen, not in the next five years anyway. When DCC announce a firm plan to do that (instead of a consultation period), there'll be uproar. Drivers will whinge, politicians will scream and eventually DCC will be convinced not to go ahead with it until the M50 is upgraded (as if that'll make any difference) and there's a better public transport system. I'd love to be proved wrong though.

murphaph

kearnsr wrote: »

You've summed up why it wont work

So you advocate "dumbing down" our infrastructure because our laws are not enforced? Have you never heard of root cause analysis?

godtabh

murphaph wrote: »

So you advocate "dumbing down" our infrastructure because our laws are not enforced?

Its nothing to do with dumbing down of infrastructure. Its down what is deemed safe and unsafe.

All the signage in the world can still lead to confusion as whats to be done. Giving to much information is just as bad as to little.

murphaph wrote: »

Have you never heard of root cause analysis?

Whats your solution?

murphaph

kearnsr wrote: »

Its nothing to do with dumbing down of infrastructure. Its down what is deemed safe and unsafe.

All the signage in the world can still lead to confusion as whats to be done. Giving to much information is just as bad as to little.

A simple overhead sign with "No entry, except for buses" is not giving too much information. It is giving just the right amount.

kearnsr wrote: »

Whats your solution?

Build the requisite infrastructure whilst at the same time making sure the Gardai enforce the laws already on the statute book and bringing in new laws governing driver training and testing where appropriate. Just things normal countries do really. Do you disagree with this notion?

godtabh

murphaph wrote: »

A simple overhead sign with "No entry, except for buses" is not giving too much information. It is giving just the right amount.

It would still lead to confusion

a quote from a similar situation that had a safety audit done

• South Bound traffic on XXXX will be faced with two lanes with what may appear to be a central island or reservation, leading to confusion. This may result in through traffic keeping left at the suggested island and entering the bus lane.

murphaph wrote: »

Build the requisite infrastructure whilst at the same time making sure the Gardai enforce the laws already on the statute book and bringing in new laws governing driver training and testing where appropriate. Just things normal countries do really. Do you disagree with this notion?

What happens in the mean time? Build unsafe infrastructure int he hope that peoples attitudes change, the garda start enforcing all the laws and the laws are changed?

Or do you build infrastructure thats safe for todays needs?

AlekSmart

Any discussion of this type of infrastructural topic is largely just gasbagging in the face of the virtually Total lack of pro-active response from DCC and The Gardai.

I`m just hearing now of YET ANOTHER serious RTA at the Junction of Hume St and Stephens Green.....YET ANOTHER !
The regularity and severity of accidents at this location is something which in other somewhat more functional democracies would long ago have seen a City Manager dismissed and perhaps even charged with negligence.

Hume St/Stephens Green and indeed Westmoreland St has existed since it`s inception and modification with virtually NO proper road markings or signage.
Worn out indistinct dull grey lines,poles with no signs atop or worse still signs pointing in the wrong direction....bits of half reinstated tarmac and builders detritus left lying around and its all deemed NORMAL by the Powers that be.....everybody else,particularly Drivers and pedestrians are expected to adapt to this mallarkey and simply continue to pay the taxes which fund the executive branch of a flaccid and lethargic City Council and Senior Garda Traffic administrators.

Until and Unless the SENIOR DCC and Garda officials are brought before the Criminal courts for their inaction and downright negligent decision making then NO progress will be made.

We can whinge and moan all we like but the general attitude from this governing elite is that THEY know best and everybody else particularly the lower orders such as Bus/Truck/Van drivers or Motorcyclists simply do not merit any consideration as to their views.

Next time you`re travellin along Westmoreland St people try following the Traffic Lanes from it onto O Connell Bridge.....follow the lines and see if you can find where they join up...... Quart into Pint Pot....??? :mad:

murphaph

kearnsr wrote: »

It would still lead to confusion

a quote from a similar situation that had a safety audit done

Then just extend the buslane out from the apparent island so that no motorist will be anywhere near a position to be confronted by what may seem an island. It could be constructed to make it look like an offslip. Do all the motorists on a motorway dive off at the first exit for fear of meeting oncoming traffic? I take a lot of these reports by consultancies with a great pinch of salt in any case. I've read some shocking ones by 'experts'.

kearnsr wrote: »

What happens in the mean time? Build unsafe infrastructure int he hope that peoples attitudes change, the garda start enforcing all the laws and the laws are changed?

Or do you build infrastructure thats safe for todays needs?

Ok, I'm going to be annoying and answer a question with a question. The Luas has had many 'incidents' since it's inception due to the general muppetry of the general public-pedestrian, cyclist and motorist all guilty. Now, judging by your logic in this thread I presume you would (in hindsight) not build any on street tram line in Dublin until people develop an ability to treat it with the respect it deserves as a 100 tonne vehicle? How are people ever to get used to decent infrastructure if it isn't built?

The word 'safe' is very subjective Kearnsr. What's safe to me may not be safe to you. What's unsafe to me may be safe to you. Can one measure the 'safeness' of a particular proposal? As far as I'm concerned, if a traffic island is built acoording to best practice and is signed and lined in accordance with the TSM all should be well. We can do no more. All other issues are for the Gardai/RSA.

Personally I would go further than a simple 'extended island' and I would build a proper 'angled' bus station. They take up s surprisingly small amount of space when designed properly and allow a more comfortable experience for passngers and driver. Westmoreland Street is well wide enough for such a construction.

markpb

murphaph wrote: »

Personally I would go further than a simple 'extended island' and I would build a proper 'angled' bus station. They take up s surprisingly small amount of space when designed properly and allow a more comfortable experience for passngers and driver. Westmoreland Street is well wide enough for such a construction.

Do you mean angled bus bays so the buses all queue in the inside lane, enter the correct bay (by turning to the right) and then re-join traffic in the middle lane? Something like this? That could be an interesting idea. It would introduce a lot more conflicting movements between pedestrians and buses but would add a lot more bays. I like it.

It probably wouldn't take up any more space really, the left two lanes would be used for the bus stop and the right two lanes would be for general traffic with a merge closer to the quay.

P.S Yes, we're gasbagging Alex, it'll probably never happen but a man can dream

murphaph

markpb wrote: »

Do you mean angled bus bays so the buses all queue in the inside lane, enter the correct bay (by turning to the right) and then re-join traffic in the middle lane?

Precisely Mark. To be found all over the world, even in heavily urbanised spaces and work fine.

markpb wrote: »

That could be an interesting idea. It would introduce a lot more conflicting movements between pedestrians and buses but would add a lot more bays. I like it.

It would indeed add a lot more bus-ped conflicts but personally I have a LOT more confidence in the ability of a professional bus driver to avoid hitting me as he or she manouevres intoa bay than I do in the general motoring public who may or may not have even passed a basic driving test. Generally peds would cross to the bays at designated points at either end of the bus station and get over to their correct bay by walking in front of or behind the parked buses and/or empty bays. Obviously walking behind a bus that will be moving forward in any case is quite safe and it would only be the empty bays that may shortly receive a bus that would pose any real danger for peds. All in all though, a much more ped friendly space than the current excuse for a bus depot that we find all over the city at the side of the street.

To be honest, I would rather these types of structure were built on the periphery of the city centre with pax transfering to rail based systems, working in harmony and not in competition. We are still many decades away from such a comprehensive rail network however so a bus station built on Westmoreland Street would not have a short shelf life! The bus will continue to dominate public transport in Dublin for a long time.

markpb

murphaph wrote: »

It would indeed add a lot more bus-ped conflicts but personally I have a LOT more confidence in the ability of a professional bus driver to avoid hitting me as he or she manouevres intoa bay than I do in the general motoring public who may or may not have even passed a basic driving test.

I'd be more worried about the passenger who dashes across the road as they see their bus pull off. We've all been there :-)

Overall I think it's a much better idea than mine - it removes a lot of the problems, especially the dwell time one for Aircoach and IC buses. It would be great if the second lane could be physically segregated to stop cars blocking buses exiting from the bay.

The problem still remains if two (or more) buses for the same bay turn up at once and block the rest of the bays upstream (so to speak) but that's a problem at present so it's not like we're creating any new ones. According to DB's site there are 21 buses serving WML and if they're grouped by number (13 and 13a together) it's down to 12 so 6 - 7 bays should be more than enough.

2
3
13 13a
19 19a
25 25a 25x
26
48a
66 66a 66b 66x
67 67a 67x
83
121
123

dazberry

markpb wrote: »

According to DB's site there are 21 buses serving WML and if they're grouped by number (13 and 13a together) it's down to 12 so 6 - 7 bays should be more than enough.

Don't forget the buses that terminate but don't pickup (hence probably not included in the list) - the ones I know of 51 51B/C 68 69 78 (79?), so I presume would be looking for slots to drop off also.

D.

bk

markpb wrote: »

I realise that. I just don't believe it'll happen, not in the next five years anyway. When DCC announce a firm plan to do that (instead of a consultation period), there'll be uproar. Drivers will whinge, politicians will scream and eventually DCC will be convinced not to go ahead with it until the M50 is upgraded (as if that'll make any difference) and there's a better public transport system. I'd love to be proved wrong though.

You know, for every 1 driver who uses these roads, there must be at least 50 bus, pedestrian, cycling commuters who would greatly benefit from it.

They should all shout back louder that we need this badly and that it is for the greater good so stuff it.

markpb

True but apart from Platform 11, I'm not aware of a lobby group for any other public transport users so the AA shout loudest.

godtabh

markpb wrote: »

True but apart from Platform 11, I'm not aware of a lobby group for any other public transport users so the AA shout loudest.

Its not Platform 11 is it any more?

There are local transport groups as far as I know. There was one in Lucan but not sure where they went or if they are still at it

bk

markpb wrote: »

True but apart from Platform 11, I'm not aware of a lobby group for any other public transport users so the AA shout loudest.

Well I suppose there is the cycling crowd.

That is why I've never joined P11, I've always thought that they are a little too focused on rail.

It is ironic, we often complain about lack of joined up thinking and integration amongst DB, RPA, IR, etc. yet those of us with an interest in public transport are guilty of it ourselves, with separate user groups.

With P11's recent name change, it is a pity that they didn't take the opportunity to also widen their remit to include all public transport.

We really need a public transport users group the quality of P11, but which covers rail, tram, bus, cyclists and pedestrians.

jrar

dazberry wrote: »

Don't forget the buses that terminate but don't pickup (hence probably not included in the list) - the ones I know of 51 51B/C 68 69 78 (79?), so I presume would be looking for slots to drop off also.

D.

Given that roadspace in central Dublin is so limited, why do DCC permit DB to continue to take over large swathes of streets to use as their private parking areas whilst they change crews etc. - why not insist they convert all routes to cross-town routes rather than having every 2nd bus terminate in the city centre. As well as taking up valuable room, they're a visual eyesore, they're a safety risk in terms of blocking driver and pedestrian visibility, and they generally ensure that the areas they use are permanent oil slicks.

markpb

The simple answer is that there's nowhere else. The city council has patently refused to provide anywhere for any bus operator to park up buses or even to stop buses in a safe manner.They can't convert the routes to cross city routes because the council don't provide any priority on the city centre streets so the timetable is terribly unreliable on the far side. There's also the minor problem of there not being any toilet facilities in the suburbs that the routes tend to terminate in. If all the routes terminated in the suburbs, we'd end up with more drivers changing over in the city centre so they could un-cross their legs

jrar

Take your point(s) but I'm left wondering how they manage in other cities - even London doesn't seem to have a plethora of city-centre unoffical bus "depots" as we do here

murphaph

jrar wrote: »

Take your point(s) but I'm left wondering how they manage in other cities - even London doesn't seem to have a plethora of city-centre unoffical bus "depots" as we do here

Better bus priority measures allow reliable cross city routes to keep good time. We really need the politicos to get the finger out and deliver these things. The humble bus could do so much more for this city with relatively little expense. If (just for example) they scrapped the Lucan Luas for the time being and spent €600m on bus priority measures citywide, it would have a much bigger impact. We need high capicity rail solutions too of course.

DCC are basically a disgrace.

KC61

jrar wrote: »

Take your point(s) but I'm left wondering how they manage in other cities - even London doesn't seem to have a plethora of city-centre unoffical bus "depots" as we do here

Actually if you take a closer look there are plenty of bus stands in central London - there is one just off Tottenham Court Road, another just off Oxford Streeet at Oxford Circus, the arc of the Aldwych has a long bus stand.

There are numerous other examples around the city.