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Pairc Ui Caoimh - 60000 all seater stadium!
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CrabRevolution wrote: »Admittedly I havent looked at any maps recently, but since when is there a Donegal-Monaghan or Cavan-Roscommon border?
I said neighbouring counties not border !0 -
AugustusMinimus wrote: »True. The only game which would potentially be moved would be a Heineken Cup semi-final but Munster Limerick Rugby management would try to have it held in the Gaelic Grounds instead.
This is exactly why the IRFU / Limerick Rugby will not invest a penny into a municipal stadium in Cork. Its why the GAA are the only ones even trying to do something.
They've been attempting to redevelop Musgrave Park for years, getting anything through the planning department at City Hall has been the problem. It's as if there was some other powerful force holding sway at City Hall.0 -
As a 'GAA til I die' man I can't for the life of me figure this one out....There is already 4 stadiums capable of holding 40,000+ in Munster GAA alone! (Thurles, Limerick, Killarney and Cork). Okay, maybe cork could do with some modernising but this seems outrageously OTT to me. Get used maybe 2/3 times a year after all that money. Thumbs down for this i'm afraid
I agree with this completely. A complete waste of scarce resources. There are hundreds of clubs throughout the country that could do with a little slice of the funds required to build a stadium. This stadium might be full for one football match every second year and maybe two/three hurling matches a year.
We, the members of the GAA, are also taxpayers in this "fair" state (obviously excluding our Northern brethern). Spending both taxpayers and the GAA's money on this stadium, is a waste of our money. Give my club a couple of hundred grand to build a clubhouse. We'll provide much better value for money, and will use the facilities at least 300 days per annum.0 -
We, the members of the GAA, are also taxpayers in this "fair" state (obviously excluding our Northern brethern). Spending both taxpayers and the GAA's money on this stadium, is a waste of our money. Give my club a couple of hundred grand to build a clubhouse. We'll provide much better value for money, and will use the facilities at least 300 days per annum.
Fair enough on the state funding, but the balance is coming from the Cork County Board. €40m of the funding is Cork money and not the money of other counties or even central council.0 -
alias no.9 wrote: »They've been attempting to redevelop Musgrave Park for years, getting anything through the planning department at City Hall has been the problem. It's as if there was some other powerful force holding sway at City Hall.
I'm not too sure just how hard Munster Branch were pushing for this redevelopment.
Munster Rugby and its link to Cork is dying a death by 1,000 cuts. There was a time when games were shared equally between Cork and Limerick. It was generally held that games against international touring sides were split 50:50.
I also remember a time when Heineken Cup matches were played in both Cork and Limerick. This is what has happened since:
1. The decision was made to play all Heineken Cup matches in Limerick
2. The decision made that Thomond was to be developed over Musgrave
3. The decision to move all but 3 Celtic League games each year to Limerick
4. The decision that the split training session would be abolished and all training sessions to be held in Limerick from 2014/15 onwards.
The only link Cork has with Munster Rugby now is 3 Pro 12 games each year and the Munster administrative office.
The board of Munster Rugby has quite a Limerick bias and has quite obviously been played out over its decisions over the past 10 years. Munster Rugby IMO has no intention of spending any significant sums of money on any Cork facilities from now on. A 3,000 stand is an absolute joke and is an absolute kick in the teeth for anyone in Cork who cares about rugby here.0 -
Its nowhere near as bad as you think and once Thomond was done up you were never going to see biggest games not played there as it would be total financial suicide. Board and top people in Munster does not have a Limerick bias and a 3000 capacity stand is not a joke when current capacity is not always full for games.AugustusMinimus wrote: »I'm not too sure just how hard Munster Branch were pushing for this redevelopment.
Munster Rugby and its link to Cork is dying a death by 1,000 cuts. There was a time when games were shared equally between Cork and Limerick. It was generally held that games against international touring sides were split 50:50.
I also remember a time when Heineken Cup matches were played in both Cork and Limerick. This is what has happened since:
1. The decision was made to play all Heineken Cup matches in Limerick
2. The decision made that Thomond was to be developed over Musgrave
3. The decision to move all but 3 Celtic League games each year to Limerick
4. The decision that the split training session would be abolished and all training sessions to be held in Limerick from 2014/15 onwards.
The only link Cork has with Munster Rugby now is 3 Pro 12 games each year and the Munster administrative office.
The board of Munster Rugby has quite a Limerick bias and has quite obviously been played out over its decisions over the past 10 years. Munster Rugby IMO has no intention of spending any significant sums of money on any Cork facilities from now on. A 3,000 stand is an absolute joke and is an absolute kick in the teeth for anyone in Cork who cares about rugby here.
Link with Cork is not dying. No ground for games has never affected the other countys so less games in Cork will not be that much of an effect.
Its best for the team/squad/province to only train in one venue and UL had best offer with CIT close behind. Its not an absolute kick in the teeth. Munster will do better from all those changes. What do you want done
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Mods should this be moved to rugby forum as its very much OT?1 -
AugustusMinimus wrote: »I'm not too sure just how hard Munster Branch were pushing for this redevelopment.
Munster Rugby and its link to Cork is dying a death by 1,000 cuts. There was a time when games were shared equally between Cork and Limerick. It was generally held that games against international touring sides were split 50:50.
I also remember a time when Heineken Cup matches were played in both Cork and Limerick. This is what has happened since:
1. The decision was made to play all Heineken Cup matches in Limerick
2. The decision made that Thomond was to be developed over Musgrave
3. The decision to move all but 3 Celtic League games each year to Limerick
4. The decision that the split training session would be abolished and all training sessions to be held in Limerick from 2014/15 onwards.
The only link Cork has with Munster Rugby now is 3 Pro 12 games each year and the Munster administrative office.
The board of Munster Rugby has quite a Limerick bias and has quite obviously been played out over its decisions over the past 10 years. Munster Rugby IMO has no intention of spending any significant sums of money on any Cork facilities from now on. A 3,000 stand is an absolute joke and is an absolute kick in the teeth for anyone in Cork who cares about rugby here.
Tje reality is people will not travel long distances to support a team. It takes an awfu long time to get to Limerick from certain parts of Munster so I can see why fans are losing interest. However Ulster v Munster in Limerick a few weeks ago only had a few thousand at it so the support base in Limerick has definitely died down too. They should have saved themselves millions and built a 20-22k stadium instead.0 -
The most practical solution for the country and not just cork is a municipal stadium that is used for a variety of things.
Let it be the GAA's stadium but insist that it is used as Munster's Cork base, or that they would have a commitment to have the 'Live at the Marquee' series held there each year.
It is definitely in need of refurbishment that is without question but i dont see why capacity needs to be expanded there. Improving the showgrounds area around it to incorporate a centre of excellence and office space that would serve the GAA, local rugby, soccer etc would be most appropraite. Let the other organisations pay rent to the GAA for it but there is no need for the amount of vaious stadia around the country of such a large size.
Another idea is the scale of the grounds to be cut back to where they can be filled for all championship outings. If it means it is more difficult to get tickets for certain provincial games then so be it. The back door and qualifier aspect has led to a dulling of the senses from a spectator point where the interest in the games is not as great as they once where.1 -
I'd like see a few municipal stadiums around the country that are JVs between government and sporting governing bodies.
Give them modest capacities but built to a high standard. I quite like the new Ravenhill. 4 sided ground that's completely covered, and terracing at the bottom on all 4 sides to help the atmosphere.
That could be the design template.
In Cork built a ground of 30-35K capacity. Used for Cork GAA, Munster Rugby, Cork City, UCC, CIT.
North Dublin 10-15k. Dublin GAA, Shelbourne, Bohemians, DCU, DIT
Galway 30k Galway GAA, Galway FC, Connacht Rugby.
Waterford 10-15K Waterford GAA, Waterford UTD, WIT
Drogheda 10-15K Louth GAA, Drogheda Utd (they're currently next door, neither ground for purpose)
Something similar can be done in other areas like Wexford, Sligo, Navan, Portlaoise, Longford, Derry etc.
They can also form part of bids for FIFA, UEFA, IRB bids for ladies and underage world and European competitions.0 -
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I'd like see a few municipal stadiums around the country that are JVs between government and sporting governing bodies.
Give them modest capacities but built to a high standard. I quite like the new Ravenhill. 4 sided ground that's completely covered, and terracing at the bottom on all 4 sides to help the atmosphere.
That could be the design template.
In Cork built a ground of 30-35K capacity. Used for Cork GAA, Munster Rugby, Cork City, UCC, CIT.
North Dublin 10-15k. Dublin GAA, Shelbourne, Bohemians, DCU, DIT
Galway 30k Galway GAA, Galway FC, Connacht Rugby.
Waterford 10-15K Waterford GAA, Waterford UTD, WIT
Drogheda 10-15K Louth GAA, Drogheda Utd (they're currently next door, neither ground for purpose)
Something similar can be done in other areas like Wexford, Sligo, Navan, Portlaoise, Longford, Derry etc.
They can also form part of bids for FIFA, UEFA, IRB bids for ladies and underage world and European competitions.
Dublin already has more than enough stadiums and this stadium in Cork will go ahead and be under ownership of the GAA. Not that we even needed this but to suggest we build more stadiums on top of that is crazy!0 -
Dublin already has more than enough stadiums and this stadium in Cork will go ahead and be under ownership of the GAA. Not that we even needed this but to suggest we build more stadiums on top of that is crazy!
I'm not suggesting we build more stadia. I'm saying we should reduce the total amount of stadia and build new ones to a higher standard.0 -
AugustusMinimus wrote: »Fair enough on the state funding, but the balance is coming from the Cork County Board. €40m of the funding is Cork money and not the money of other counties or even central council.
According to a recent statement by Cork CB Runai, Frank Murphy, the new stadium will cost c €70 M - The Government has already promised €30M. Mr. Murphy indicated that Cork CB will contribute €20 M and the remainder (€20M) will come from Central Council of the GAA - an announcement is expected after the Aug Meeting of CC. Murphy is obviously very confident of securing the funding.
He stated that Cork CB has €10M cash reserves and will raise the additional €10M by selling 2000 corporate seats and increased efforts wrt the Cork GAA Annual Draw.
Players/Management of Clare, Tipp, Limerick & Waterford are adament that they won't accept seeding in Munster Football next season. Limerick footballers have refused to play in Thurles this week-end thus denying the public an relatively attracitve double bill. Cork v Kerry Munster Football Finals can always be depended on to pull in a decent crowd.
The 12,000 crowd at the Cork v Waterford game will be a serious worry for Munster Council who won't always have Brian (draw game) Gavin at hand to 'facilitate' a lucrative replay.
Thomond Park has a 26,500 capacity (15,100 seated) but the goal end terraces are very small. It cost €25M.
Cork will have a centre of excellence but Donegal's is costing €1.75 M so Cork's COE can't be adding more that a couple of mill to the bill.
It doesn't seem likely that the new stadium in Cork will have many sell-outs.0 -
I doubt the viability of the PUC redevelopment is based entirely on selling match tickets. I am sure they plan to generate commercial income from concerts, conferences tourists, and people from the new park. In fact, I would not be surprised if the plan is for non-match day revenue to be the main source of income.
There is no chance of, or indeed need for, a municipal stadiums in Cork. Munster Rugby are struggling to pay the debt on Thomond as it is, there is no way they want to get involved with another similar sized stadium in Cork. They are undertaking upgrade works on Musgrave and playing a few smaller games in there every year is enough, anything more would undermine Thomond and the investment there.0 -
I'm not suggesting we build more stadia. I'm saying we should reduce the total amount of stadia and build new ones to a higher standard.
We don't need to replace stadia either and that would be costly. PUC is one of the few getting replaced and between the british tax payer and the gaa antrim are getting a brand new 40k seater too.
There are only a few cases where your idea could work and it's places like Louth. But even so Drogheda united attract a few hundred a game and Dundalk about 2k. Neither of them need a new 15k stadium especially when it's made for GAA matches too meaning they're too far away.
What you say is right though but ideas like yours needed to be implemented 10-30 years ago before all the stadiums were built.0 -
Gary Neville wrote: »According to a recent statement by Cork CB Runai, Frank Murphy, the new stadium will cost c €70 M - The Government has already promised €30M. Mr. Murphy indicated that Cork CB will contribute €20 M and the remainder (€20M) will come from Central Council of the GAA - an announcement is expected after the Aug Meeting of CC. Murphy is obviously very confident of securing the funding.
He stated that Cork CB has €10M cash reserves and will raise the additional €10M by selling 2000 corporate seats and increased efforts wrt the Cork GAA Annual Draw.
Players/Management of Clare, Tipp, Limerick & Waterford are adament that they won't accept seeding in Munster Football next season. Limerick footballers have refused to play in Thurles this week-end thus denying the public an relatively attracitve double bill. Cork v Kerry Munster Football Finals can always be depended on to pull in a decent crowd.
The 12,000 crowd at the Cork v Waterford game will be a serious worry for Munster Council who won't always have Brian (draw game) Gavin at hand to 'facilitate' a lucrative replay.
Thomond Park has a 26,500 capacity (15,100 seated) but the goal end terraces are very small. It cost €25M.
Cork will have a centre of excellence but Donegal's is costing €1.75 M so Cork's COE can't be adding more that a couple of mill to the bill.
It doesn't seem likely that the new stadium in Cork will have many sell-outs.
Do you think Cork GAA will sell 2,000 10 year (or 5 year?) corporate tickets at €5,000 each to make up the other €10M? Seems ambitious but if any county can do it, it's Cork.0 -
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Do you think Cork GAA will sell 2,000 10 year (or 5 year?) corporate tickets at €5,000 each to make up the other €10M? Seems ambitious but if any county can do it, it's Cork.
It's going to be a tough sell.
It could be 3 years before these seats are marketed so the economy should be in a healthier state. By then, we'll have a resolution on the seeding dispute wrt Munster Football C/ship. A practically guaranteed Munster Final every 2nd year is an obvious attraction. Right now, it's hard to imagine many companies forking out, say €4000 for a pair of 10 yr tickets. if you could sell them at that price range, then you would bring in €4M - If Frank Murphy's projections are correct, Cork CB would need another €6m from the draw - that's probably realistic.
Cork CB suggests a big event will generate €10/12 M for the local economy but whilst local business interests will welcome this, I don't see them contribute to the cost of the stadium.
Cork would hope for more big games like League Finals and AI Semis etc but then Killarney, Belfast, Limerick and Thurles would surely be looking for the same.
A vibrant, active supporters club ala Tyrone and Tipp would be a huge asset to shift corporate seats but the Cork Runai - Frank Murphy has never encouraged this and is unlikely to change now.0 -
Gary Neville wrote: »It's going to be a tough sell.
It could be 3 years before these seats are marketed so the economy should be in a healthier state. By then, we'll have a resolution on the seeding dispute wrt Munster Football C/ship. A practically guaranteed Munster Final every 2nd year is an obvious attraction. Right now, it's hard to imagine many companies forking out, say €4000 for a pair of 10 yr tickets. if you could sell them at that price range, then you would bring in €4M - If Frank Murphy's projections are correct, Cork CB would need another €6m from the draw - that's probably realistic.
Cork CB suggests a big event will generate €10/12 M for the local economy but whilst local business interests will welcome this, I don't see them contribute to the cost of the stadium.
Cork would hope for more big games like League Finals and AI Semis etc but then Killarney, Belfast, Limerick and Thurles would surely be looking for the same.
A vibrant, active supporters club ala Tyrone and Tipp would be a huge asset to shift corporate seats but the Cork Runai - Frank Murphy has never encouraged this and is unlikely to change now.
How many Cork people have GAA season tickets? They are shelling out €75 a season and in 10 seasons will spend €750 (Both football and hurling would give €1500). That number would be an indication of demand among the general public.
If there are only a few hundred with the season ticket, it is difficult to see how they could sell so many 10-year tickets.1 -
How many Cork people have GAA season tickets? They are shelling out €75 a season and in 10 seasons will spend €750 (Both football and hurling would give €1500). That number would be an indication of demand among the general public.
If there are only a few hundred with the season ticket, it is difficult to see how they could sell so many 10-year tickets.
I'd say there's only a few hundred, based on league attendences.
There would be very little demand for 5/10 yr tickets from indivdual members of the public.
Frank Murphy specified that they hoped to sell 2000 CORPORATE Tickets.
With the Season Tickets and Premium Level Tickets, you know that you'll be able to attend so many games a year. You won't know this wrt Cork Corporate Tickets.
If HQ decide to switch big games from CP to Cork then Corporate and Premium clients at CP won't be happy. Robbing Peter to pay Paul/Frank.0 -
Gary Neville wrote: »I'd say there's only a few hundred, based on league attendences.
There would be very little demand for 5/10 yr tickets from indivdual members of the public.
Frank Murphy specified that they hoped to sell 2000 CORPORATE Tickets.
With the Season Tickets and Premium Level Tickets, you know that you'll be able to attend so many games a year. You won't know this wrt Cork Corporate Tickets.
If HQ decide to switch big games from CP to Cork then Corporate and Premium clients at CP won't be happy. Robbing Peter to pay Paul/Frank.
The problem with franks 'plan' gary is that to sell these games you need to be able to sell a package of games that people will be guaranteed to see. For croke park its easy - all Ireland finals, semi finals, club finals, Dublin games, quarter finals and definite access to concerts.
What frank and his ilk don't realise that trying to sell tickets with NO guaranteed matches wont wash regardless of the economy. As for concerts, bruce last summer was the first concert in the pairc since 1996 - the marquee, croke park, O2, Aviva etc have the market cornered in that regard. Again this is a totally unreliable income source but one that frank and pearce seem to think can be counted as guaranteed, crazy stuff.0 -
The problem with franks 'plan' gary is that to sell these games you need to be able to sell a package of games that people will be guaranteed to see. For croke park its easy - all Ireland finals, semi finals, club finals, Dublin games, quarter finals and definite access to concerts.
What frank and his ilk don't realise that trying to sell tickets with NO guaranteed matches wont wash regardless of the economy. As for concerts, bruce last summer was the first concert in the pairc since 1996 - the marquee, croke park, O2, Aviva etc have the market cornered in that regard. Again this is a totally unreliable income source but one that frank and pearce seem to think can be counted as guaranteed, crazy stuff.
I think that concerts and other big events may be an option for the new Pairc, once it is improved & upgraded. It is a death trap at the minute, and so is access to/from it. When that is improved, I can see concert promoters being more willing to pitch it to big name acts for gigs. It has all the other factors needed to hold big events...hotels, good transport links etc etc.
Agree with you about the lack of big GAA games being a big problem. Even if some of the not so big "big" games are moved out of Croke Park, (which I am in favour of btw) they will still have to be shared around, especially in Munster. The lads who runs Semple Stadium, Fitzgerald Stadium & the Gaelic Grounds are not going to stand idly by and, watch Cork get all the big games.1 -
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The problem with franks 'plan' gary is that to sell these games you need to be able to sell a package of games that people will be guaranteed to see. For croke park its easy - all Ireland finals, semi finals, club finals, Dublin games, quarter finals and definite access to concerts.
What frank and his ilk don't realise that trying to sell tickets with NO guaranteed matches wont wash regardless of the economy. As for concerts, bruce last summer was the first concert in the pairc since 1996 - the marquee, croke park, O2, Aviva etc have the market cornered in that regard. Again this is a totally unreliable income source but one that frank and pearce seem to think can be counted as guaranteed, crazy stuff.
Frank wants the Stadium as a fitting monument to Leeside's Greatest Ever GAA Man and a mere side issue like funding isn't going to stop him now.
He's announced that he'll get €20 M from Central Funding but Cork got €1.258M last year and Cork's Central Council Delegate, Des Cullinane told this weeks CB meeting that wrt funding for the new stadium ''I'd imagine you'd be looking at a grant in terms of millions rather than hundeds of thousands''
It sounds as if Cullinane is expecting a much lower figure than Frank's €20M. Typically not one 'nodding dog' delegate asked for clarification on such contradictory projections.
Frank throws out a figure of €10 M coming from 2000 corporate seats and the annual draw. Not as much as a single question seeking clarification.
The projected cost has risen from €67 M to €70 M in recent times but no one seems to know why - at this rate of inflation - it'll be €100M by time construction starts.
It was some stroke to get Enda and Gilmore to promise €30 M before the local and Euro Elections - it didn't do much for Gilmore.
I know that if I asked my club delegate for details of the cost and funding - I might as well ask him what's the annual budget deficit and the size of the National Debt.
Central Council will make an announcement of funding for PUC after their August Meeting - I'll be watching to see if Frank gets his €20 M.0
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