Special Needs Assistant

okgirl

Hi there,
Can any one tell me if a secondary school teacher can refuse an SNA in their class room, even if a specific child has been granted the sna?

spurious

I'm having trouble thinking of a scenario where one more adult in the classroom would not be welcome.

As I see it, the child is entitled to the SNA and it's not really the teacher's place to deny him/her their assistance.

Could the person involved request a different SNA if there is some issue between the teacher and the particular SNA assigned?

Trotter

okgirl wrote: »

Hi there,
Can any one tell me if a secondary school teacher can refuse an SNA in their class room, even if a specific child has been granted the sna?

Absolutely not. The children are the reason why the teacher is in the job in the first place. They're the ones being educated so if a special needs assistant is required, they have as much a right/need to be there as the teacher.

I would be absolutely LOST without the SNA thats in my class for one of my gang. She is so helpful and deserves a medal. I too cant think of a reason why a teacher would not want an SNA in the room.

okgirl

spurious wrote: »

I'm having trouble thinking of a scenario where one more adult in the classroom would not be welcome.

As I see it, the child is entitled to the SNA and it's not really the teacher's place to deny him/her their assistance.

Could the person involved request a different SNA if there is some issue between the teacher and the particular SNA assigned?

Thanks for that. I reckoned the child had the right to his sna regardless of what the teacher thinks. This auld guy would be past his sell by date and real 'old school'. He does not wanrt any sna in the class no matter who. He has even threatened to go to the ASTI about it and the head of Dept of ED. I wonder why he is not welcoming to another adult in the room with him??

okgirl

Trotter wrote: »

Absolutely not. The children are the reason why the teacher is in the job in the first place. They're the ones being educated so if a special needs assistant is required, they have as much a right/need to be there as the teacher.

I would be absolutely LOST without the SNA thats in my class for one of my gang. She is so helpful and deserves a medal. I too cant think of a reason why a teacher would not want an SNA in the room.

Trotter, your words are comforting. Our school has not had an SNA go into the class room with a student but this particular kid really needs it now. The child's welfare, safety and right to education should be paramount unfortunately we have a few attitudes to change.

okgirl

Is there any department guidelines with regard to this? would the union take the side of the teacher?

spurious

I would be surprised if the union would - refusing an SNA access would be effectively deliberately denying a child access to education.
The child has a legal right to their assistant.

Trotter

spurious wrote: »

I would be surprised if the union would - refusing an SNA access would be effectively deliberately denying a child access to education.
The child has a legal right to their assistant.

I agree.. I would be amazed if that ASTI said anything against the child's right to an SNA.

The teachers view doesnt come into it.. regardless of how long he's been doing things his own way. The child is entitled to an SNA and thats all that matters.

killbillvol2

This is not as black and white as Trotter would have you believe. Of course the teacher's view comes into it.

Firstly there are numerous reasons why a teacher wouldn't want an SNA in his/her class. The fact that Trotter has a very helpful SNA is utterly irrelevant to the issue here.

The simplest and most common is that the teacher doesn't like the individual/has had a run in with him/her in the past etc. I can think of 4 or 5 examples over the years in my own school and dozens anecdotally.

Some teachers just don't feel comfortable having another adult in the classroom. They actually prefer to work alone. Strange but true.

Some teachers feel that having an SNA in the room places an added burden on them in that they have to direct their work. I've worked with 7 SNAs in the last 6 years. 3 were outstanding, used their initiative and generally fitted in with what was going on. They spotted what needed to be done and had enough cop on to work without my constant direction. 2 others were ok. They got on well with the kids and took direction well but never used their initiative. 1 was just lazy and did nothing unless you stood over her. She was of no use whatsoever to the children or the teacher. The last one was nothing short of a bloody nuisance. She was constantly late, actually disrupted the class and gossiped constantly about teachers and children in the school.

As I said, this is not a black and white issue. From a Trade Union point of view the teacher could justifiably claim that having an SNA in the room constitutes a change in working conditions to which he hasn't agreed.

It's an interesting one. I'm sure it's happened hundreds of times before but I wonder how far anyone has taken it? Could the teacher refuse point blank to allow the SNA into the room? Would the DES direct the teacher to accept the SNA?

It's probably always been resolved with local compromises in the past and that's probably how this will be resolved. Keep us posted.

Trotter

killbillvol2 wrote: »

This is not as black and white as Trotter would have you believe. Of course the teacher's view comes into it.

Firstly there are numerous reasons why a teacher wouldn't want an SNA in his/her class. The fact that Trotter has a very helpful SNA is utterly irrelevant to the issue here.

The simplest and most common is that the teacher doesn't like the individual/has had a run in with him/her in the past etc. I can think of 4 or 5 examples over the years in my own school and dozens anecdotally.

Some teachers just don't feel comfortable having another adult in the classroom. They actually prefer to work alone. Strange but true.

Some teachers feel that having an SNA in the room places an added burden on them in that they have to direct their work. I've worked with 7 SNAs in the last 6 years. 3 were outstanding, used their initiative and generally fitted in with what was going on. They spotted what needed to be done and had enough cop on to work without my constant direction. 2 others were ok. They got on well with the kids and took direction well but never used their initiative. 1 was just lazy and did nothing unless you stood over her. She was of no use whatsoever to the children or the teacher. The last one was nothing short of a bloody nuisance. She was constantly late, actually disrupted the class and gossiped constantly about teachers and children in the school.

As I said, this is not a black and white issue. From a Trade Union point of view the teacher could justifiably claim that having an SNA in the room constitutes a change in working conditions to which he hasn't agreed.

It's an interesting one. I'm sure it's happened hundreds of times before but I wonder how far anyone has taken it? Could the teacher refuse point blank to allow the SNA into the room? Would the DES direct the teacher to accept the SNA?

It's probably always been resolved with local compromises in the past and that's probably how this will be resolved. Keep us posted.

I think you're misinterpreting what I mean. I havent even considered that the person would already know the S.N.A and if there is a previous personality clash then the principal needs to deal with this.

This does not concern the child however who still has the right to an SNA. Choosing the person to do this job is a job in itself for management.

The core question here is whether the teacher can / should be able to block a person holding the position of SNA (I dont mean a specific person) from doing a job assigned by the department.

As for having an SNA being a change in work conditions for the teacher, I'd have to respectfully disagree on that. The teacher is there to educate the children, and the children must always come first, not the teacher. Whats best for the children must be allowed to happen.

If however a person who is not capable of doing the job, or who causes major problems does get the job, this should be dealt with by management up to a point where the SNA is redeployed or replaced.. exactly the same as should happen in the case of a teacher in the same circumstances.

killbillvol2

As I said, this isn't as black and white as you initially thought. There are no absolutes in a school setting and we don't have enough background on this case to give definitive answers.

Trotter

killbillvol2 wrote: »

As I said, this isn't as black and white as you initially thought. There are no absolutes in a school setting and we don't have enough background on this case to give definitive answers.

Ah I agree with you there, theres no definitive answers, and I'd be the first to lock this thread up if there was any personal details or enough to identify specific people there, but Im not worried that that could happen anyway.

In terms of this board as a discussion facility, we can discuss the concept of an SNA's post being refused by a teacher and the rights or wrongs of that hypothetical situation.

As I said, If there is a problem with a particular person as an SNA in the class, thats a whole absolutely different issue than the general idea of a teacher refusing to have an SNA in general in the class.

I dont think I made it sound simple, Im experienced enough to be able to think about these things in detail

I concentrated on the general hypothesis that a teacher can refuse to have any SNA in the class, and I believe that to be fully and absolutely wrong. If a child needs and is entitled to an SNA, thats it.. end of story.

If however the SNA chosen is not performing well, or is being detrimental to the workings of the class in general, as you mentioned in another example, then absolutely, I'm behind that teacher 100%.

In terms of refusing to accept the concept of having an SNA in the class just because the teacher doesnt like the idea of another adult in the room, then I'm afraid I completely disagree with that idea.

I'd like this discussion to be based around the question of whether a teacher should be able to refuse to allow any SNA into the class environment. My opinion on that is no, they shouldnt.

Should the teacher have an input into the selection or appraisal of an SNA? Maybe!

In direct reply to your post above, you are along the right lines that there are no absolutes in a school setting.. however there is one absolute in every school in that it is there to prioritise the learning of children, not the working style of the teacher.

Historically the education system in Ireland, and in my opinion, the public service as a whole, has been a case of the tail wagging the dog.. i.e. the needs of the 'customer' being second to the needs of the help provider. Again.. I disagree with that point of view. I think that in schools specifically, any difficult decision must come down to one thing; the best outcome for the child. The rocking of a teacher's routine shouldnt be a reason to make a decision either way.

And in terms of background info on this case, I wont be allowing that to be posted anyway because this sort of thing has to be kept generalised anyway for proper boards.ie moderation purposes. I dont think the OP posted here for specific information anyway, moreso to get the thoughts of other teachers on SNA refusal in general. (Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong there OP!).

Trotter

killbillvol2 wrote: »

The fact that Trotter has a very helpful SNA is utterly irrelevant to the issue here.

As is your example of a very poor SNA in that case.

TheDriver

I concur with killbillvol2, a teachers view will be taken into account and can attempt to refuse an SNA into a room, whether they succeed depends on the grounds upon which they are submitting and definitely not black and white.
I remember one major concern was if a local gossip ever got an SNA job and could unofficially review the teacher to the outside world and we all know having a poker face is for the kids only with all smiles for the parent. But in reality, very little teachers would blankly refuse an SNA into their room without reason.
I will say one SNA made a comment one day about teachers doing nothing with all the time off compared to them spending all periods with the kid which made me feel uncomfortable all of a sudden.
Not black and white by any means in my experience.

okgirl

Hi again,

Well some really good views and opinions. Thanks a million for all of that.

Trotter, you're correct about the basis of this thread. It is really a general discussion I was hoping for and nothing to specific. I am more interested in the concept of a teacher refusing the SNA access to the child and therefore, in my opinion denying that child their right to education.

The SNA in the classroom setting should be used by the teacher as a mechanism to reach the child who for what ever reason is at a disadvantage. Surely the SNA and teacher should be a team and with that, a degree of confidentiality and trust must apply between both.

In this scenario the teacher is not familiar with the SNA but seems to have a more general problem with another adult in the room (his classroom), with him.

In many cases, (not all) the teacher is not trained to the same degree as an SNA to cope with children with specific learning difficulties or physical disabilities. This can create a very difficult environment for the teacher to cope with a full class and inevitably the other students suffer.

I do agree that is is a situation unique to each school but in general the teacher should welcome the SNA in order to aid the child.

Trotter

I do like these discussions I learn a whole lot about different points of view. Its why I pushed to have a teaching/lecturing forum on boards in the first place. I can see Killbillv2's and The driver's point of view clearly and I think that its made me think about what I would do in the situation. Im very grateful for their regular contributions to the teaching forum too! Without a few voices, things get very quiet in here!

Yes I can see the difficulty in a teacher feeling "monitored" by an SNA. Thankfully as I said before, I do not have that problem, BUT, I acknowledge that some people may have these difficulties.

I think the improvement in SNA qualifications is very much in the right direction and should lead to an increase in mutual respect between the SNA and the teacher.

killbillvol2

OK, a few points in no particular order based on the issues raised in this thread:

I did some research with the a friend who works for a teacher union on this today. There have been hundreds of enquiries regarding this issue from all over the country. Two difficulties predominated: an unwillingness to have another adult in the classroom (mainly from older teachers) and a specific issue with the individual SNA. (Another significant minority had an issue with whether the child actually needed an SNA and whether the child might become dependent).

Technically, the only qualification an SNA needs is a Junior Certificate so the idea that the SNA is more trained than the teacher is, to put it bluntly, utter bull****. The most highly qualified SNA doesn't have a degree. If he / she does they're in the wrong job.

The teacher is not refusing the SNA access to the child in this case. He's refusing the SNA access to his classroom. We don't know why so we won't speculate.

Finally, up to about two years ago the DES were throwing SNAs around like confetti. Almost every child assessed had a recommendation for resource hours and an SNA (either part or full) added on to the end of the psychological report. The appointment was granted almost automatically. Since the advent of SENOs there's a much more stringent process. Schools which had 6 or 7 SNAs based on pupils who had left found their quota slashed. (The most I heard of in a primary school was 11!).
At the same time the DES introduced seniority for SNAs, ie, last in, first out. While this gave some job security to long serving SNAs, it held within it a significant flaw. Many of the longer serving SNAs came into the job before the current glut of courses in chidcare became available. They were less qualified than their younger colleagues. Through no fault of their own the pioneers in the field found that they had to deal with the resentment of colleagues who were let go despite being better qualified than those who had seniority.
To further complicate the matter the DES then changed the conditions of service of some of the original cohort of SNAs. They decided that no increments would be paid to those below a certain level of qualification. In other words their pay became stagnant. It's clear from reading this thread and others that old fashioned trade unionism is a dying concept but Impact, the TU representing most SNAs, completely abdicated its responsibility in allowing such a fundamental change in working conditions to go unchallenged.

As I pointed out previously, nothing is black and white in this area. There are no absolutes and none of us can judge a right and wrong when we're not centrally involved. Hopefully a bit of background might add some light to the discussion.

okgirl

killbillvol2 wrote: »

OK, a few points in no particular order based on the issues raised in this thread:

I did some research with the a friend who works for a teacher union on this today. There have been hundreds of enquiries regarding this issue from all over the country. Two difficulties predominated: an unwillingness to have another adult in the classroom (mainly from older teachers) and a specific issue with the individual SNA. (Another significant minority had an issue with whether the child actually needed an SNA and whether the child might become dependent).

Technically, the only qualification an SNA needs is a Junior Certificate so the idea that the SNA is more trained than the teacher is, to put it bluntly, utter bull****. The most highly qualified SNA doesn't have a degree. If he / she does they're in the wrong job.

The teacher is not refusing the SNA access to the child in this case. He's refusing the SNA access to his classroom. We don't know why so we won't speculate.

Finally, up to about two years ago the DES were throwing SNAs around like confetti. Almost every child assessed had a recommendation for resource hours and an SNA (either part or full) added on to the end of the psychological report. The appointment was granted almost automatically. Since the advent of SENOs there's a much more stringent process. Schools which had 6 or 7 SNAs based on pupils who had left found their quota slashed. (The most I heard of in a primary school was 11!).
At the same time the DES introduced seniority for SNAs, ie, last in, first out. While this gave some job security to long serving SNAs, it held within it a significant flaw. Many of the longer serving SNAs came into the job before the current glut of courses in chidcare became available. They were less qualified than their younger colleagues. Through no fault of their own the pioneers in the field found that they had to deal with the resentment of colleagues who were let go despite being better qualified than those who had seniority.
To further complicate the matter the DES then changed the conditions of service of some of the original cohort of SNAs. They decided that no increments would be paid to those below a certain level of qualification. In other words their pay became stagnant. It's clear from reading this thread and others that old fashioned trade unionism is a dying concept but Impact, the TU representing most SNAs, completely abdicated its responsibility in allowing such a fundamental change in working conditions to go unchallenged.

As I pointed out previously, nothing is black and white in this area. There are no absolutes and none of us can judge a right and wrong when we're not centrally involved. Hopefully a bit of background might add some light to the discussion.

Well, there are some interesting points here!

I really do believe it is unfortunate that the min qualification for SNA is junior cert (intermediate certificate), but hopefully in time this will change. However, without taking your comments personally an SNA with a degree being in the wrong job is most upsetting to hear.:( My degree is in psychology and complements my job adequately. I do not or have never felt I was in the wrong job.

Hard to believe but I get huge satisfaction from my chosen career and I know I am good at it!

TheDriver

I know an SNA with a 1st class honours degree in another area! I know one SNA who was asked not to attend during this teachers class as the student was getting her to do all his maths questions and because she has to help him, she herself found it difficult to not do them so she was happy to be excluded!

Thanks Trotter, its nice to have some professional discussions regarding teaching in here and not the usual "teachers are paid too much and do nothing" lines some members of the public/media give us!
P.S. Secondary teacher here

Trotter

killbillvol2 wrote: »

Technically, the only qualification an SNA needs is a Junior Certificate so the idea that the SNA is more trained than the teacher is, to put it bluntly, utter bull****.

killbillvol2, Who said that the SNA is more trained than the teacher? I dont understand why you're saying that.

killbillvol2 wrote: »

The most highly qualified SNA doesn't have a degree. If he / she does they're in the wrong job.

I'd be withdrawing that statement if it was me who made it to be honest. Its very offensive to a lot of SNAs who are educated to degree level. I personally know a number of very highly trained SNAs (One with a masters degree in child psychology). Your statement that he/she is in the wrong job comes across as belittling the achievement or career choices of people you have never met, and sounds quite insulting. Im sure that is not how you meant it. Career SNAs who love their job are in the correct job regardless of their qualifications.

I have (as I'm sure you have) the utmost respect for Special Needs Assistants, and should this thread descend into further insulting statements about the SNA profession, it will be locked.

Tom Dunne

I feel I need to step in here as a neutral moderator, with absolutely no knowledge of SNAs or 2nd level teaching for that matter.

The debate is not about the ability nor capability nor qualifications required of an SNA. The debate is about whether anyone can say for certain if a secondary school teacher can refuse an SNA in the classrom.

So comments such as this:

killbillvol2 wrote: »

Technically, the only qualification an SNA needs is a Junior Certificate so the idea that the SNA is more trained than the teacher is, to put it bluntly, utter bull****. The most highly qualified SNA doesn't have a degree. If he / she does they're in the wrong job.

are, to put it bluntly, off topic and irrelevant.

So, please keep this debate civilised and on topic.

okgirl

TheDriver, Trotter, many thanks for your comments and support.

Killbillvol2, I am sure your point of view is also valid but the insults are uncalled for and as tom dunne so rightly pointed out completely of discussion/topic. qualification in this respect are not the issue. In my opinion the welfare of a child who is being denied access to their SNA in order to facilitate their education is the main issue.

I merely asked if the teacher is within their right to do this. What should the SNA do? By the way other teachers have welcomed the SNA into the class room. The younger teachers coincidently.

TheDriver

I clarified this with other staff members regarding what we were told when we got our first SNA and indeed, no one can make us take an SNA into the room and the other hand, I don't believe the SNA can do anything unless its personally against them as opposed to a good reason from the teacher why they do not want an SNA into the room. The exact same way that a computer can be recommended yet a teacher can choose for them not to use it in their class. AFAIK, SNAs are only a recommendation from the assessor and although granted, they don't have to be utilised if impacting on the child's education within a room. I could use examples of metalwork practical class or home economics where you not be assigned help in the exams at JC level hence SNA would be of little benefit there, or indeed technical graphics, woodwork, science experiements, music practical, art practical etc etc.
Okgirl, our topics are being discussed at very general level but your case sounds like a certain teacher opposing the SNA on personal grounds hence impact could get involved as she is not let to undertake her job for no reason. I think its unfair to bring the age thing into it as I am aware of plenty of teachers, all ages who have no issue with SNAs and you could view it as a mature teacher will make their (maybe incorrect) view known about an SNA yet a young teacher will say nothing.

lou-cooney

It is a fact that when an SNA is first in a school that has never had an SNA before the SNA in question has certain hurdles to over come with certain members of the teaching staff. As an SNA i personally have noticed that it is the older teachers that take some time to get over the SNA in the classroom. It also is a common misconseption that a lot of SNA's are uneducated. This again comes from my own experience. I also find that the Department of Education and Science do not help the status of the SNA by the way they define the role (as in the SNA is supposed aid in the cleaning/tidying of classrooms etc at the start of holidays and the end of summer holls). I have never worked in a school that has asked this of me, but it is common in certain schools. This has nothing to do with the welfare of the assigned child. I know i sound very negative, but these are some of the issues that i feel strongly about regarding my job. Dont get me wrong, i love my job dearly and wouldn't change it for the world. The job satisfaction is fantastic.
Really interesting Thread,
Lou (SNA)

TheDriver

I must say what Lou has said is interesting. As a teacher, i must blame the Dept somewhat because for say mature members of staff, there is no training or advice given, just literally heres an adult in your classroom and it is a big change. Bit like everything in education, hurdles to be overcome left right and centre and the SNA is only a tip of the ice berg. Though on the note of cleaning and tidying, i find it interesting that an SNA can assist the learning of many varied children and yet there are snas who have to assist with toilet trips etc (e.g. bagged children) which comes down to a many varied job outside the education spectrum, depending on your assignment.
Interesting indeed, a very tough job to be honest.
One point which I am sensitive towards (and not mentioned here) is when an SNA looks down on the teacher (i know we have mentioned the other way around). Rare but it can happen, mostly in secondary when it is seen that teachers don't even work the full day (of course neglecting the correcting and planning times). Again a very small number of SNAs.

lou-cooney

MY goodness Driver i never thought of an SNA looking down on a teacher but suppose i can see how that would occur, esp when the SNA is in the classroom and teachers feeling they are being judged, and what with the 22 hours a week. It has to be said that there is a lot of prep work that goes into teaching before and afer the actual classroom time. I would presume that would all add up to the SNA's 32hours. Would it be a good idea to have inservice about the role of the SNA for teachers and intergrating the SNA into the classroom if thats whats on the cards ??? Just an idea, what ya think?

TheDriver

Inservice would be interesting but would want to be very well specified and then you would have all the parents councils up in arms over time off for this etc. Even the simplest part of introducing the SNA to the staff formally as ours just appear and we wonder what role they play in the school, good guesswork usually on our part! I have an issue with SNAs that think they are a teacher and I don't mean this in an elitest sort of way but we have very different jobs that are meant to compliment each other but I have had experience of one that basically knew it all, it nearly came to a stage where all the teachers wanted to tell her to go away and do HDip and become a teacher if your that desperate for it!!
Are there many male SNAs out there?

lou-cooney

I haven't come accross any in the schools but there have been a few on some of the courses i have done. I think there should be more. An SNA should never take on the role of teacher, if he/she does then they are most certainly not doing their job correctly. I feel the students should see a huge difference between teachers and SNA's. SNA's should stand out as being helpfull and caring and maybe more approachable than a teacher ( i am not saying teachers are not approachable) . Students should see the SNA as a different support network. I think maybe you should have told that SNA to go do the HDip. Well, hint at it anyway!

TheDriver

true! Its such a big minefield as like most things in education here, the role of the SNA is not defined in a public sense. you have a contract etc but according the teachers, SNAs just appear, sometimes without warning from the principal. Sometimes SNAs are made undertake ridiculous tasks such as caretaking duties, some teachers treat them unfairly and some SNAs overtake their position unfairly. SNAs can indeed afford to be a lot more friendly and supportive as the SNAs head shouldn't be on the block on either out of control class or bad results yet teacher has to keep the poker face going and eat the heads off the class sometimes to get them to cop out. This can be slightly difficult when another adult is in the room though.

dugout16

are SNA's entitled to paid summer holidays just like a teacher? what are the rates of pay like for the job?

okgirl

The Depatrment of Ed website has all the information you need. You can even have a look at the contracts. I am a full time SNA so I do get paid for all the holidys as a teacher would which I might add makes the job more worth while as the hourly rate is not so good but once broken down into the actual hour worked its is acceptable. I think the holiday pay thing is decided on your start date. For example if you start before a certain date in November then you are paid for your holidays and if your contract starts later in the year the holidays may not be paid. It also depends on if you are returning after the holidays or not. If you are in a position where the hours granted to the child are going to be renewed in teh next term you more than likely will be paid. I hope this is of some help to you.