Man throws 5-year-old to alligators

MOH

rbd wrote: »

this is why i feel the only real answer is to give real life sentences and if the offender wishes he/she can opt for the death penaty
i feel that this would mean the guilty could die and the innocent or highly optomistic could appeal

Unless of course you're innocent but found guilty.

MooseJam

cjt156 wrote: »

Again, that's like saying give a murderer community service; if an innocent person is convicted then at least he won't have gone to prison. Your problem is with the trial system, not the sentence.

So do you have no problem with a death sentence if someone is 100%, no doubt, self-confessed guilty?

I'd have no problem with a death sentence if someone is 100%, no doubt, self-confessed guilty but in the majority of cases this isn't so, there's always a chance you will put an innocent person to death and any chance at all is too big.

stovelid

cjt156 wrote: »

I disagree, punishment and retribution are valid penalties for a crime. The ultimate crime (murder) warrants the ultimate penalty.

It's your prerogative to believe that, but punishment and retribution haven't proved to be that preventative over the years, have they?

The fact that a nutter can do that to his family in a state where capital punishment exists doesn't say much for the preventative power of execution, does it?

cjt156

@ moosejam
Fair enough. Although with modern science and the rights of the accused I'd say the chances of an innocent going down for murder are slim to non-existent.

So, baseball bat or pliers & a blow-torch for crocodile-man?

cjt156

stovelid wrote: »

It's your prerogative to believe that, but punishment and retribution haven't proved to be that preventative over the years, have they?

I never said I was looking for prevention. Punishment and retribution are valid in and of themselves.

How successful is our current system in prevention?

stovelid

cjt156 wrote: »

I never said I was looking for prevention. Punishment and retribution are valid in and of themselves.

How successful is our current system in prevention?

At least we're getting to the rub of it now. The penal system isn't about protecting society from criminals; it isn't about trying to prevent crime; it's about exacting mob revenge.

Of course, if you ever end up in court yourself, you would still champion the latter?

cjt156

stovelid wrote: »

At least we're getting to the rub of it now. The penal system isn't about protecting society from criminals; It isn't about trying to prevent crime; It's about exacting mob revenge.

Of course, if you ever end up in court yourself, you would still champion the latter?

MOB revenge? ehhh, OK.

Either you believe crime should be punished or you don't. Do you propose we send criminals to the Bahamas to protect us from them, and to prevent crime?

Muff_Daddy

plazzTT wrote: »

Ridiculous. Of course he is a human. Very sick and ****ed up yes, but still human.

How arrogant can you be to assume that the human race is perfect, and that any sick, evil person like this mustn't be human?

Is he, or anybody else for that matter, 'arrogant' for believing that human beings shouldn't go around committing the crimes that the individual in the article committed, and that he forfeited his right to live amongst fellow human beings when he did? Thats certainly my belief, anyone who takes the life of another, and is found guilty without any doubt, loses their own right to life. It's simple as that.

Death by lethal injection is still going to be a fairer deal that what that poor 5year old went through.

Tigger

farohar wrote: »

Clearly you have never seen the film "No Escape", go watch it, then come back and make a counter point which at least is a disagreement/agreement, not an agreement claiming to be a disagreement.

If you even took the time to look up the film's IMDB listing:

i am fully aware of the film

i dont think that throwing the possably innocent to a hell hole run by a madman aned policed by charachters stolen from amd max is a good foundation for a juduicial deterent

so i disagree

i then go on to give a slightly less imaganitave method

Tigger

MOH wrote: »

Unless of course you're innocent but found guilty.

no if yer innocent you appeal

Tigger

mob revenge

“A democracy is nothing more than mob rule, where fifty-one percent of the people may take away the rights of the other forty-nine.”
Thomas Jefferson

stovelid

cjt156 wrote: »

MOB revenge? ehhh, OK.

People, even people like that nutter, have to be judged impartially or the state is no better than them.

Eye for an eye punishments are mob revenge. It's one thing to waffle on here about torturing people for committing heinous crimes, but would you like to live in a society where that happens? Do you think justice-by-mob would stop at punishing murderers?

cjt156 wrote: »

Either you believe crime should be punished or you don't. Do you propose we send criminals to the Bahamas to protect us from them, and to prevent crime?

I have already said that I agree with imprisoning people who are danger to society; stop using cartoon law-and-order examples.

cjt156

stovelid wrote: »

Eye for an eye punishments are mob revenge. It's one thing to waffle on here about torturing people for committing heinous crimes, but would you like to live in a society where that happens? Do you think justice-by-mob would stop at punishing murderers?

I have never advocated torture, or mob-rule; please don't put words in my mouth. I do, however, support the use of the death penalty as punishment for appropriate crimes. Surely punishment must fit the crime. If you don't support the death penalty argue your case but don't tell me I am responsible for the fall of civilisation because I disagree.

I fully support jury trials, right to appeal, innocent until proven guilty and all the rights that a modern democracy bestowes on its citizens. But I do believe that some crimes warrant the death penalty. try to stay within that reference when you stereotype me.

Muff_Daddy

Just because you support the Death Penalty doesn't mean you're a bloodthirsty mobster, out for revenge. You might just believe that anything less than the Death Penalty would be letting murderers off lightley.

stovelid

cjt156 wrote: »

If you don't support the death penalty argue your case but don't tell me I am responsible for the fall of civilisation because I disagree.

I fully support jury trials, right to appeal, innocent until proven guilty and all the rights that a modern democracy bestowes on its citizens. But I do believe that some crimes warrant the death penalty. try to stay within that reference when you stereotype me.

I see the death penalty as an eye-for-an-eye punishment. I don't care if a fair legal process results in the death penalty. I don't, IMO, believe that anybody has the right to take life. I see a jail sentence as sufficient in keeping certain people away from society.

I want to see some kind of attempt at addressing/combatting the causes of crime, no matter how useless it may seem. I can't accept that bumping off the same procession of mad, poor, often mentally-ill people makes any difference.

The state should be above principles of revenge and retribution; otherwise, it is no better than any other taker of life.

cjt156 wrote: »

I have never advocated torture, or mob-rule; please don't put words in my mouth.

cjt156 wrote: »

@ moosejam
So, baseball bat or pliers & a blow-torch for crocodile-man?

I like multi quote.

Tigger

I like multi quote.

not a reason to use it to change context

he was asking a rhetorical ironic question

stovelid

rbd wrote: »

not a reason to use it to change context

he was asking a rhetorical ironic question

Doesn't matter. Put him to death.

yomchi

And more...

http://news.sky.com/skynews/article/0,,30200-1288912,00.html

coolhandc

some people do not deserve to be locked away simple as that.they need to pay for what they have done.lets not forget what this person has done to anyone here supporting his case!if that was my sister that was thrown into the lake i would want his head on a spike.simple as that.
all these posts about two wrongs dont make a right and all are just stupid.two wrongs dont make a right no matter what happens.if you put him in jail how would that make it right?but he needs to pay for what he has done and throwing him into jail with proper rights doesnt do this.he should have no rights. some people dont deserve to be called human beings so they should not be treated like one.
the law in this country is far too lenient,people going to jail and living in luxury not having to serve a proper jail term.life should mean life and thats it.

Tigger

coolhandc wrote: »

snip

,people going to jail and living in luxury not having to serve a proper jail term.

i doubt i'd like it

life should mean life and thats it.

i agree

Reku

rbd wrote: »

i am fully aware of the film

i dont think that throwing the possably innocent to a hell hole run by a madman aned policed by charachters stolen from amd max is a good foundation for a juduicial deterent

so i disagree

i then go on to give a slightly less imaganitave method

I never brought up the nature of the inhabitants of the island as the relevant part was only that it was an island with no hope of escape so the inmates are kept away from the innocent.

Sorry to burst your bubble but fact is it's a damned if you do, damned if you don't scenario, regardless of what you do innocent people will suffer as you can never be 100% certain of guilt (people have been known to confess to things they had not done). So you simply have to accept that regardless of whether on an unescapeable island or some prison a life sentence will still be imposed on people who do not deserve it.

As for the hell hole aspect... think of the numerous attacks on inmates by inmates even here, imagine what could be expected in a prison composed of those convicted of the worst crimes, now imagine how an innocent person sentenced to said prison would find it. Might want to put a bit more thought into your ideas I'm afraid.

Simple fact is as long as the perceived risk of conviction x perceived penalty upon conviction is less than the perceived gain/benefit/pleasure people will break the law and do some downright horrific things. Since this is all based around one's perceptions of the world you cannot fix it so that the innocent are safe short of actually being able to deal out pre-emptive punishment via monitoring thoughts.

d22ontour

The only thing the death penalty does is save tax-payers $$$ regarding time spent in prison.I do think the crime itself was sickening and would if related to the victims want his blood/equal justice but still think the death penalty is wrong in many ways.On the grounds that even at 1% ' made up %' of innocent people being put to death makes it wrong.No amount of money in a settlement can bring back someone executed for a crime they didn't commit.Execution/suicide is the easy way out for criminals of dispicable crimes and all means to make them endure life imprisionment should be implemented.

Terry

We don't use dollars.

MooseJam

we do on holidays

Terry

On topic:
My father was killed by a guy on a motorbike.
All bikers should recieve the death sentence, whether or not they have killed someone.

The guy who killed him should be tied to four bikes and be quartered.

Really though, I'd be happy with a reasonable jail sentence.

Trojan911

Mairt wrote: »

but I don't believe its in our hands to take another life.

Mairt,

Correct me if I am wrong, but aren't you in the army?

TJ911...

Pigman II

That gives me a great idea for a new burger called the "Maddie Patty"

Trojan911

Manic Moran wrote: »

Unfortunately, there are legal questions over whether the current lethal injection system qualifies as 'cruel and unusual'.NTM

Yes, I read that recently on this website. It was taken from this website

Still, no sympathy for the condemed one...

TJ911...

syklops

in the words of Billy Connolly -> Hangins too good for people like that. Its a good kick in the arse they need.

Tigger

Terry wrote: »

On topic:
My father was killed by a guy on a motorbike.
All bikers should recieve the death sentence, whether or not they have killed someone.

The guy who killed him should be tied to four bikes and be quartered.

Really though, I'd be happy with a reasonable jail sentence.

i know a guy who killed someone by driving into then on a motorbike
he was too young to be yer dad tho

yer man did no time and got done for only a small charge (due care or summit)

but he is not the same person the guilt tore him to pieces

the_syco

farohar wrote: »

We need a "No Escape" style island to deport such people to...

That is 10 foot by 10 foot wide, and 8 foot high, and surrounded by alligators...

rbd wrote: »

no if yer innocent you appeal

Red, in Shawshank Redemption "Everybody's innocent in here"...

Tigger

the_syco wrote: »

Red, in Shawshank Redemption "Everybody's innocent in here"...

greatest example of toikenisim ever haveing morgan freeman play that charachter

Reku

the_syco wrote: »

That is 10 foot by 10 foot wide, and 8 foot high, and surrounded by alligators...


Red, in Shawshank Redemption "Everybody's innocent in here"...

Or when Homer rescues his mom and all the other female convicts, just beforehand they're singing away and
"just the innocent"
*singing continues*
"Just the really innocent"
*silence*

CivilServant

A life for a life seems like mob revenge so a life for life in prison IMO is fair justice. And yes, a life sentence should mean the rest of his natural life.

Binomate

The death sentence is not justified. It's inhumane. That's what I like about it.


On a serious note, revenge is not justice. Justice is the principle of moral rightness. Taking some one's life is in most cases (and in the case of the death sentence) considered immoral. Therefore the death sentence is immoral. If the death sentence is immoral, then it is not Justice.

Call Me Jimmy

Mairt wrote: »

However I don't think its in our hands to decide on what should be gods judgement.

[canofworms]

Unless ye don't believe in god or even a god that judges us...

[/canofworms]

Muff_Daddy

Binomate wrote: »

The death sentence is not justified. It's inhumane. That's what I like about it.


On a serious note, revenge is not justice. Justice is the principle of moral rightness. Taking some one's life is in most cases (and in the case of the death sentence) considered immoral. Therefore the death sentence is immoral. If the death sentence is immoral, then it is not Justice.

I completely disagree with that, to put a cold-blodded murderer to death IS justified, in my opinion. There is no comparison between a criminal committing a murder on an innocent person and an executioner ending the life of the murderer who killed the innocent. It's not just about revenge....I just think it's a fair and equal punishment for murder.