Article:Jury gives verdict in M7 crash death

Seth Brundle

from www.ireland.com/newspaper/breaking/2007/1015/breaking85.htm

Last Updated: 15/10/2007 21:25Jury gives verdict in M7 crash death

The jury at the inquest into the death of Kate Moyles (24) in a traffic pile-up on a motorway in March has returned a verdict of accidental death.
Her car hit the back of a fire engine which was in traffic on the M7 in Kildare and en route to the scene of the first of a number of collisions on the M7/M9 on March 27th. The inquest heard Ms Moyles died from head injuries.
The driver of the fire engine told the inquest he was unable to move into the overtaking lane on the motorway, even though the blue lights and sirens were in use, because traffic was moving too fast.
The crash occurred in foggy conditions, although a Met Éireann meteorologist told the inquest the weather was not exceptional.
Gardaí said they found no skid marks at the scene, backing up a claim that the car which Ms Moyles was driving did not brake before impact.
The jury recommended that permanent overhead warning signs should be installed to warn of dangers ahead on all major roads.
The Moyles family said they hope Kate's death will serve as a warning to others about the dangers of excessive speed and tailgating.
Up to 60 vehicles were involved in a series of crashes on the motorway on the same day in one of the worst pile-ups ever on the State's roads. A total of 27 people were hospitalised.
The crashes occurred just before 9am when a lorry crashed into the back of a car transporter, triggering crashes over a five-kilometre stretch on two sections of motorway between Kildare and Naas.

Firstly, don't get me wrong, its terrible, etc. but am I the only one who thinks that this outcome is wrong?
"Accidental Death"? The woman was driving recklessly. She couldn't see the fire engine (with its flashing lights) driving in front of her and she ploughed into the back of it.
Does this outcome effectively condone stupid and dangerous driving?

colm_mcm

My understanding of the verdict is that nobody else is to blame for her crash


I was on the N7 going in the opposite direction that morning, and it was ridiculous the number of people driving with no lights on at all, tailgating undertaking and driving too fast.
I thought it would serve as a lesson to the idiotic drivers I see every day on the N7, but even that evening and the following morning, many people drove as if they were oblivious to what had happeded earlier in the day.

Warning signs to warn of fog are useless in this country in my opinion. Reduced visability should be enough to make people slow down, people ignore speed warning signs anyway.

Guy:Incognito

Her sister was on Gerry Ryan the other morning saying that there should be flashing sgns warning of fog and the likes on all roads leading to motorways and that if therehad been signs Kate woudlnt have driven onto the motorway.
Personally I think thats a load of crap and its the usuall "my friend/relative" was blameless and its the governments fault". I mean for a start did she drive past even one exit after realising there was fog? If she did then that debunks the sign issue. Thick fog s one thing but all the crashes were caused by stupid people doing stupid things on the road. As above, she drove into the back of a fire engine with flashing lights on. Even if it didnt have flashing lights on, she was driving too fast to allow for a vehicle/obsticle to appear out of the fog.

wet-paint

colm_mcm wrote: »

My understanding of the verdict is that nobody else is to blame for her crash.

I wouldn't take it like that, an accident is where nobody is at fault. Would you not say that she was at fault?
I'd agree with KBannon here.

littlejukka

i drove from dublin to cork a few weeks back. from tipperary to my house there was continuous fog, varying from 100 metre visibility down to 20 feet or so. i spent most of it doing 60-70kph with fog lights on, even on the motorway bypassing fermoy with a 120kph limit. people were still passing me with parking lights on, no fogs, doing double my speed, sometimes upward of 140kph with 40-50 feet of visibility. absolute stupidity.

i feel sorry for the girl, she died because she didn't understand the risks and responsibilities of driving in those conditions. driver education and awareness is vital. i don't think "there is fog, slow down" signs on a motorway covered in fog is the solution, but educating drivers in general to slow down in heavy rain or fog would help.

colm_mcm

nobody else means nobody other than herself. It means they can't blame anyone else for it.

wet-paint

That's cool.
Just a quick thing by the way - can we not get caught up on how cold and callous we are to be judging the poor wan who died?
We all know it's a terrible tragedy, but we're focusing on the judgement and how it affects other drivers.

wil

kbannon wrote:

but am I the only one who thinks that this outcome is wrong?

KB, you are not the only one, I immediately thought as you did while feeling sadness and regret at another senseless death. But then I get these thoughts for many of the coroners verdicts here regarding road deaths. They continually miss the point and focus on the wrong things
I am inclined to agree the verdict should have been closer to misadventure or similar in my non legalistic jargon brain. But addressing the sensibilities of the familes as they seem to do teaches nothing to the next name on tomorrows list.

The family reinforced this missing of the point by going on a campaign for warning signage, but then who can blame them, as I clarify below

littlejukka wrote: »

i feel sorry for the girl, she died because she didn't understand the risks and responsibilities of driving in those conditions. driver education and awareness is vital. i don't think "there is fog, slow down" signs on a motorway covered in fog is the solution, but educating drivers in general to slow down in heavy rain or fog would help.

littlejukka I think you are equally spot on.

The verdict was accidental death, but the reason was actually given (glossed over) as tailgating

All the flashing lights, warning signs etc are of little use in a driving culture that has been ignored by successive governments which have set a precedence by ignoring rules, laws, enforcement, responsibility and EU directives.
This girl was let down by her driving skills and risk awareness, things that the current system blatantly show scant regard for, and failed to teach her, and other motorists who likewise reinforce these attitudes by the daily example they show to young drivers.

The system in other countries is there to ensure even stupid, ignorant, incompetent, incapable or uncoordinated people reach a level of competence to drive safely.
What can ours be said to do.
Our entire system is rotten and the smell has been ignored for decades.

Has anyone ever been prosecuted for tailgating if they werent in a crash? What about weaving between lanes, or due care and attention, or careless driving etc unless there was another easily definable breach such as speed, drink or collision, so it continues and so it shall.:(

IrishRover

They kept saying on the radio today that this was because of other people speeding on the road that this happened. It was said several times that drivers were speeding and refusing to allow the emergency vehicle into the fast lane [sic] and more or less implied that this pretty much made it inevitable that the girl would drive into the back of it. They didn't state whether the emergency vehicle was stationary or not, but seemed to be implying that.

It sounded to me like they just wanted to use "speeding" as a scapegoat for the incident, and very convenient for the enforcement policy it would be to do that too, whereas this actually seems like a blatant case of "inappropriate speed for the conditions" given that people (or at least the girl who died after crashing into the back of the emergency vehicle) seem to have been travelling too fast to be able to stop within the distance that they could see ahead.

I'd like to know were any of the people involved in the pileup actually breaking the posted speed limit because I suspect they probably weren't, but just driving too fast for the foggy conditions. Instead of this being spun into a lesson about how "speeding is illegal and therefore wrong" it should be a lesson to show people who think they are safe and good citizens because they keep under the speed limit that there is a lot more to road safety than that.

keefg

Stekelly wrote: »

Personally I think thats a load of crap and its the usuall "my friend/relative" was blameless and its the governments fault"

I totally agree. While everyone knows that driver education in this country is pretty non-existant (for which the government is 100% to blame), there is the matter of common sense here.

A person shouldn't need a qualified driving instructor to tell them to slow down in foggy conditions, it is common sense. If you can't see - you can't see, that's it.

To put it in another context, if you were put into a large dark room and you couldn't see, would you run around that room as fast as you can not knowing what you might run into? No, you would walk around the room slowly with caution.

If I remember correctly, he lady who died had a young child and this is just another terrible loss of life that could have been avoided. The government cannot be held accountable for every single accident that happens, we, as drivers have a responsibility to drive with consideration for ourselves, our passengers & other road users.

kdevitt

Agree completely with Killians post. Obviously I have a lot of sympathy with the family - although I do believe the finger of blame should have been pointed more firmly at her.

She could easily have ploughed into the back of a family hatch full of people, rather than a fire engine, in which case the inquest would have surely been into more than 1 death.

Golferx

This was a very sad and tragic incident. God only knows how other fatalities didn't occur that morning.

The inquest showed what Irish society has become, one where nobody accepts responsibility. I found it distasteful to see all the efforts to blame everyone except the poor unfortunate girl who was obviously driving dangerously. The poor victim was the only person to blame for the crash.

The questions asking the Fire Officer why he wasn't in the "fast" (their word, not mine) lane were insinuating the Fire Officer was to blame for being there. God knows the Polo would have slammed into the rear of another car had the tender not been in the way.

As for the sinage? The NRA are in charge. Enough said.

prospect

Hey, pigeons, here is a cat.....


What if she had been an 18y.o. Male in a Galanza?
I'd bet that it would have been a different outcome.

Note: No offense to the deceased or her family.

pburns

prospect wrote: »

Hey, pigeons, here is a cat.....

What if she had been an 18y.o. Male in a Galanza?
I'd bet that it would have been a different outcome.

Note: No offense to the deceased or her family.

Nail on the head, i'm afraid. The media coverage at the time was severly critical of people not slowing down. This unfortunate girl was as guilty as any of them but she was unlucky enough to pay the price.

The fact that she was a young mother (and very pretty to boot) rather than an 'aggressive' male in the 18-35 age group in a Galanza/Mondeo/Bimmer had an effect in how the story was spun.

And it is yet another excuse for a blanket crack down on speed rather than a focus on inappropriate speed and driver education.

daedalus2097

I think it does sound like she was to blame, considering there was nothing else involved except her driving into the back of a lorry. But "Accidental Death" is probably the most sensitive thing they could say to the family who has lost so much here. If they'd said to the family that their daughter/mother had been driving stupidly and it's her own fault, the family are still down a member and they'll only feel worse about it.

Rovi

daedalus2097 wrote: »

I think it does sound like she was to blame, considering there was nothing else involved except her driving into the back of a lorry. But "Accidental Death" is probably the most sensitive thing they could say to the family who has lost so much here. If they'd said to the family that their daughter/mother had been driving stupidly and it's her own fault, the family are still down a member and they'll only feel worse about it.

While it may be uncomfortable or even distasteful for the relatives and friends of the deceased, apportioning responsibility where it truly lies and 'calling a spade a spade' is the only way progress can be achieved.
It smacks of the same sort of attitude that was taken to suicide for years; many health professionals will tell you off the record that the suicide rate isn't all that different to what it was years ago, only now they're being more truthfully reported/recorded.

ambro25

For what it's worth, the few emergency vehics I've seen on dual lanes (e.g. M50) with lights on, most of the time the general public were slower than the vehics and very slow to move over to let them on (disgraceful )

I don't buy the "people speeding and not letting the truck out" argument for a sec'.

Respect to the family, but Darwin Award all the same

wil

daedalus2097 wrote: »

they'll only feel worse about it.

So what, this was meant to be an inquest, NOT a commiseration.

All that does it lead people to deny their own actions & believe "she had an accident, it happens" rather than thinking the severest consequences of poor driving are death, quadriplegia without remission, or irreparable brain damage.
The sensibilities of families are too well catered for in this country.

Pretty young mother - easily to feel sympathy
Agressive young male - easy to load blame.

What on earth was all the nonsense about whether the fire engine was in the inside lane (I mean they even referred to slow and fast lanes.)

She tailgated a well lit fire engine in poor visibility and she paid the ultimate price for that.
As already said, lucky she didnt kill others along with herself.

Now, next person, see what she did, dont do that.

cjt156

Headline on a red-top rag the day after the verdict read; Killed by speeding drivers.
WHAT!??

Ridiculous. The family's calls for overhead gantries and signage are cobblers too. If you can't see past the end of your bonnet then slow down. You don't run with a blindfold on - what kind of "driver education" does it take?

She was a beautiful young girl and her loss is a tragedy, but there's only one person responsible for her death I'm afraid.

keefg

I am not in anyway a legal expert - probably none of you are either - but I am just wondering, seeing as some people disagree with the "Accidental Death" verdict due to it being the womans own fault......What other verdict options did the coroner have?

Would "Death by Misadventure" been more appropriate?

I don't really know any other coroner terms that might fit this incident.

daedalus2097

The inquest doesn't in any way lay the blame anywhere other than with the deceased, there's no question of that. Similar to that case nearly two years ago where the woman killed her two kids before killing herself. Fact is she killed the kids, everyone knows that, but the inquiry returned an open verdict for their deaths, which was a lot less painful for an already grief stricken family.

DublinDilbert

littlejukka wrote: »

driver education and awareness is vital. i don't think "there is fog, slow down" signs on a motorway covered in fog is the solution, but educating drivers in general to slow down in heavy rain or fog would help.

I agree! The system of driver training is a joke! We need a graduated licensing program were it takes approximately 1 to 2 years to get your full license.

This idea that someone can learn to drive in a few weeks is wrong... We don't need shorter waiting lists for driving tests, this will not make anyone a better driver... But if they try change the system all they hear is "but how will we get to work... " to be honest Ireland is the only country that would accept such a stupid excuse for allowing people who have not proven their ability to drive to be in charge of a lethal weapon....



The thing i can't really understand about this case is that other drivers behind her said she didn't appear to brake before hitting the fire engine, one said "it looked like something from a movie", all i can gather from this is that they saw the fire engine and her driving into the back of it... how come she didn't see it?

seamus

I think "Death by Misadventure" is held back for people who were engaging in activities that were inherently dangerous or otherwise in contravention of the norms. For example, a burglar who dies after falling off a second floor windowledge while he tried to break in, would be declared "Death by Misadventure". Afaik.

"Accidental Death" implies that somebody screwed up. Accidents rarely happen all on their own. If no-one else was held to count, then logically she holds the blame for her own death. She messed up. It's tough and something similar could probably have happened to anyone else at any time, but that doesn't mean it was unavoidable.

The only thing that annoyed me was that her sister went on the radio harping on about enforcement of speed limits, which had absolutely nothing whatsoever do with her sister's death. Speed limits enforced or not, she was driving under the limit at the time she caused her own death, so no amount of enforcement would have saved her. Condolences and all, but why use your family member's death as a soapbox for talking about something you know nothing about and which is completely unrelated to her death?

The fact that she was a young mother (and very pretty to boot) rather than an 'aggressive' male in the 18-35 age group in a Galanza/Mondeo/Bimmer had an effect in how the story was spun.

The fact that she was a journalist (afaik) helped too. But you're dead right. When a young attractive mother kills herself it's all "Why did the Government let this happen?". When a young man kills himself it's "reckless driving is killing our young people!".

As for the specifics of the crash, from what I understand, the fire engine had been stopped, and trying to pull out into the traffic flow but everyone was moving too fast. When it did pull out, she was going too fast to be able to see it in time and hit the back of it.