One in four Germans believes that the Nazis had their good side

r3nu4l

I know Germans in their 30's who do feel guilty about what their nation did. Perhaps this is because many of them grew up in the shadow of their parents guilt?

Did the Nazis have a good side? They sure did! Those uniforms were cool, fair play to Hugo Boss on the SS ones! Far more stylish than the other armies and without those uniforms, the BDSM fashion industry would be lost!

Orange69

I think anyone more intelligent than a tennis ball can understands the rise of Nazism was a hugely complex and multi faceted phenomenon.. Plenty of nazis were probably good people but got mixed up in a machine bigger than themselves and probably genuinely believed what they were doing was right. And i bet many more were disgusted by the situation but felt powerless to stop it..

I for instance believe that the Irish government (FF) are utterly incompetent and quite corrupt but there is nothing i can do about it. Should i be blamed for their bumbling? When people look back in 30 years and cringe at the mistakes made will they say "all irish people back then were idiots to vote them in", is this fair?

An Citeog

Just to add, not every single German person went along with Hitler's ideals. This group (die Weiße Rose) were involved in the Nazi resistance. There's also a film being made about the whole resistance with Tom Cruise. Just in case any of you feel like investigating the topic a bit more.

mike65

r3nu4l I agree about the threads - Alison Doody FTW.

Mike.

Terry

mike65 wrote: »

Meh. All this might suggest is a classic case of "bounceback", for 60 years Germans have been made to feel guilty and suffocated under a Verboten dictate, not talking about nazism and its legacy has not been healthy for Germany. Now the cracks have appeared its quite possible that the 3rd Reich will actually get a slightly better press than it should. Hopefully balance will be achieved and ordinary Germans will be able to talk about 33-45 in a 'normal' fashion.

palaver I think you are confusing The Times with the Sun.
I strongly agree with the rest of your post though.

Mike.

They are both owned by NewsCorp, Mike.

I don't feel guilty for what the IRA did. Why the **** should I?
Why should the Germans feel guilty for what Hitler and his cronies did?

So the Germans invaded some countries and killed lots of people.
It's no different to what the Spanish, French and British etc did in the past.
It's no different to the situation in the middle East right now.
Hitler didn't have the U.N. to tell him not to invade Poland.

mike65

I strongly agree with the rest of your post though.

I did'nt say that! :eek:

Terry I know NewsCorp owns both but then Tony O'Reillys Independent News and Media own both the Herald and the Tribune, you would'nt mistake one for the other.

Mike.

MooseJam

they did stirling work in rocket science, paved the way for the moon landings, Go Nazis' go

Jesus Wept

daithifleming wrote: »

.

The Times wrote:

Recent German-made films have attracted mass audiences by depicting Hitler as sad and mad as well as bad, or even as an impotent comic figure playing with toy battleships in his bath.

Top notch journalism there, they managed to get 'sad', 'mad', and 'bad' in within 7 words.

I'd expect it from The Sun, but not The Times...

What's next, the cat sat on the mat getting fat?

Terry

Don't forget the cheap cars.

mike65

"Our Nazis are better than thier Nazis"

Mike.

Terry

rbd wrote: »

i agree have you seen the political compass

linkety link

http://http://politicalcompass.org/

http://politicalcompass.org/printablegraph?ec=-0.15&soc=-0.28

This is why I'm a moderator.

Acid_Violet

Of course the Nazi's had their good side. The allies also had their badside. All is not as simple as a thick black line between good and evil.

palaver

Acid_Violet wrote: »

Of course the Nazi's had their good side. The allies also had their badside. All is not as simple as a thick black line between good and evil.

I disagree. There was nothing whatsoever good with the Nazis. Apart from killing millions of people, marching into and destroying other countries, disregarding international agreements and human rights and creating an atmosphere of hatred and mistrust they destroyed books, arts and everything which was good in Germany.
They had bad taste! Unforgivable! :eek:;)

And for the Autobahn (motorway), the first one was built before the Nazis seized power. Only Hitler later degraded it to a national road just to say he invented the Autobahn.

Terry

palaver wrote: »

I disagree. There was nothing whatsoever good with the Nazis. Apart from killing millions of people, marching into and destroying other countries, disregarding international agreements and human rights and creating an atmosphere of hatred and mistrust they destroyed books, arts and everything which was good in Germany.
They had bad taste! Unforgivable! :eek:;)

America did what now?

Call Me Jimmy

The autobahn are well-built roads. Nothing more, nothing less. The fact that they built good roads during their reign of terror means they had their good side? lol

humanji

palaver wrote:

I disagree. There was nothing whatsoever good with the Nazis. Apart from killing millions of people, marching into and destroying other countries, disregarding international agreements and human rights and creating an atmosphere of hatred and mistrust they destroyed books, arts and everything which was good in Germany.
They had bad taste! Unforgivable!

And for the Autobahn (motorway), the first one was built before the Nazis seized power. Only Hitler later degraded it to a national road just to say he invented the Autobahn.

So, you never flown on a jet plane then? Never saw the rockets sent into space? Never listened to a magnetic cassette tape? Never used a computer? Never heard of the Wankel engine or stealth technology? Oh, and they also invented the blowup doll

An Citeog

Call Me Jimmy wrote: »

The autobahn are well-built roads. Nothing more, nothing less. The fact that they built good roads during their reign of terror means they had their good side? lol

Nah, I think it has more to do with the economic upturn after Germany had been completely crippled in the aftermath of WWI.

^^
And what he said!

d22ontour

As bad as the germans/nazis were , they were no worse than any conquering european armadas in the century or two before.Oh yes Spain/Portugal/France and good old Britain commited atrocities on the same scale but it was called colonisation ??? No german 60 years after ww2 is liable for anything their ancestors did and why should any of them even care.

MooseJam

well if they don't care they could end up doing it all again

Terry

Terry wrote: »

America did what now?

And the English.

Oh yeah, this reminds me of a Ben Folds song - "Rocking in the Suburbs"

I pull up to the stop light
I can feel that something's not right
I can feel that someone's blasting me with hate
And bass
Sendin' dirty vibes my way
'Cause my great great great great Grandad
Made someones' great great great great Grandaddys' slaves
It wasn't my idea
It wasn't my idea
Never was my idea

Terry

MooseJam wrote: »

well if they don't care they could end up doing it all again

Nobody is saying they should forget their past, just that they shouldn't feel guilt for what was done before they were born.

Would you like all British people to feel guilty for what their forefathers did here?
Do you feel guilty for what the IRA did in Britain over the past 40 years?

Terry

Deleted User wrote: »

And the English.

Oh yeah, this reminds me of a Ben Folds song - "Rocking in the Suburbs"

I pull up to the stop light
I can feel that something's not right
I can feel that someone's blasting me with hate
And bass
Sendin' dirty vibes my way
'Cause my great great great great Grandad
Made someones' great great great great Grandaddys' slaves
It wasn't my idea
It wasn't my idea
Never was my idea

I was referring to the current situation in Iraq and Afghanistan.

palaver

Terry wrote: »

America did what now?

Touché! It did cross my mind while writing this...

d22ontour wrote: »

As bad as the germans/nazis were , they were no worse than any conquering european armadas in the century or two before.Oh yes Spain/Portugal/France and good old Britain commited atrocities on the same scale but it was called colonisation ??? No german 60 years after ww2 is liable for anything their ancestors did and why should any of them even care.

That's right, but the Germans topped them all in the shortest of time. And that's why I think that the Brits are so obsessed with German Nazis and the other colonial nations, like Spain or France or Portugal keep their mouths shut - Nazi Germany distracts from their own atrocities.

I agree that Germans shouldn't be guilt ridden anymore as such, but there is a difference between guilt and being aware of the dangers that lure in unexpected corners. Trouble is the Germans got hammered for their past for more than 60 years. That sticks - and doesn't help to really work on it, which is not to be confused to get over it.

Re another remark further up: I didn't confuse the Times with the Sun. The former turned in recent years really into a rag, only under the guise of being more sophisticated which it is not. The anti-Irish comments in it alone should make you shudder.

ejmaztec

There must be more non-German Nazis in Europe, these days, than German ones. While everyone is still pointing the finger at the Germans, these other factions will sneak up and bite everyone's ar*e. The movement seems to be quite popular in the former Soviet satellite states.

mike65

MooseJam wrote: »

well if they don't care they could end up doing it all again

Ah yes those bloody Teutons are predisposed to mass murder and extermination of ethnic minorties. Of course.

Mike.

palaver

Sure there are. Look at the US of A.
They come in many guises all over the world, without calling themselves Nazis. And reading quietly in AH for some time I sometimes think there are quite a few in the bud in Ireland ....

It starts with 'playful' racism, unreflected opinions on evertything which is different. It starts with not thinking about how other people feel, not trying to understand them. It starts with destroying everything which doesn't fit in one's own small-minded world. And it starts with believing everything the media try to make you believe - instead of using your own brains.

Sometimes it starts with bad, bad jokes.

DonJose

digitally-yours wrote: »

The sheep row is covered here
Incase someone wants to know the background

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/6980766.stm

"aimed at deporting foreigners - residents without Swiss citizenship - who commit crimes"

I would support that here in Ireland. If a foreigner arrives in a country he/she should respect the laws and citizens of that country. I livedin Germany for 10 years, if I went around raping/robbing/selling drugs I'd expect to be deported after finishing a prison sentence.

Blowfish

DonJose wrote: »

"aimed at deporting foreigners - residents without Swiss citizenship - who commit crimes"

I would support that here in Ireland. If a foreigner arrives in a country he/she should respect the laws and citizens of that country. I livedin Germany for 10 years, if I went around raping/robbing/selling drugs I'd expect to be deported after finishing a prison sentence.

It's not just deporting the criminals, it includes deporting their families too AFAIR.

MooseJam

well criminality does run in families so thats a good idea

d22ontour

palaver wrote: »

That's right, but the Germans topped them all in the shortest of time.

According to media reports they did but in reality killing 1 million+ civilians* in any colonisation is no worse than killing 5m+ jews in 4/5 years.

* We don't have any accurate figures for any colonisation but the genocide that it invoked pretty much equates it to WW2 atrocities considering the timeframes to colonise a certain country one would think ???

palaver

MooseJam wrote: »

well criminality does run in families so thats a good idea

Well, that's exactly how the Nazis justified their killing of whole families and peoples and ethnic groups ...

And you are what ...?

palaver

d22ontour wrote: »

According to media reports they did but in reality killing 1 million+ civilians* in any colonisation is no worse than killing 5m+ jews in 4/5 years.

* We don't have any accurate figures for any colonisation but the genocide that it invoked pretty much equates it to WW2 atrocities considering the timeframes to colonise a certain country one would think ???

I agree here tbh. Personally I think that any genozide, no matter how many people are killed, is a crime. Even if it's 'only' 3600 people up North.
Think Rwanda, think Uganda, think Stalin-USSR, think Native Americans, think Turkey and the Armenians, think of any country or group which kills in the name of some idea or some assumption to be right. Think of Israel and Palestine. Though as a German I'm not allowed to mention it.

Think of Trevilian (spelling?) who recommended to let the Irish starve during the Famine, because it suited the English landlords and the British treasury just fine.

But: The Germans repended in a way as they took all the blame of history on their shoulders, and all other crimes against humanity just fades against these 12 years of utter atrocities - and destroyed the identity of a whole nation for decades and in many ways their sense of humour.

That's why the Germans love the Irish with their attitude: Ah, sure, you'll be grand...

Hobbes

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OF4QALVjPf8

While the Nazis were immoral and evil, what amazes me about the present day is how easily people can gloss over what went on when it suits them.

For example. Nazis actually developed procedures on how to combat hypothermia (like sharing body heat). They did this by killing loads of Jewish people in experiments. When I first read about it, it was pretty chilling stuff. But the solutions found is still in use today.

professore

rbd wrote: »

i have talked to many germans about their nazi guilt and they dont have enough if you ask me

What would you have done if you had lived in Nazi Germany at that time, and just lived a normal life as best you could? Would you feel guilty? By that token if you are an Irish Catholic you should feel guilt for the abuse carried out by the church until recently, or the IRA bombing campaigns in London for that matter.

humanji

Hobbes wrote: »

For example. Nazis actually developed procedures on how to combat hypothermia (like sharing body heat). They did this by killing loads of Jewish people in experiments. When I first read about it, it was pretty chilling stuff. But the solutions found is still in use today.

How many medicines have been developed by animal testing? It's the same thing. The Nazis who performed those experiments saw the Jews as nothing more than animals. It's horrible, but true.

The thing is, we have these things now. Would you refuse a cure for some disease you had because you didn't like the way it was obtained?

professore

An Citeog wrote: »

Nah, I think it has more to do with the economic upturn after Germany had been completely crippled in the aftermath of WWI.

^^
And what he said!

... and if WWI had been ended on more fair terms for the Germans then maybe Hitler would never have come to power in the first place.

palaver

Hobbes wrote: »

For example. Nazis actually developed procedures on how to combat hypothermia (like sharing body heat). They did this by killing loads of Jewish people in experiments. When I first read about it, it was pretty chilling stuff. But the solutions found is still in use today.

Yeah, that's the frightening and really chilling thing. And there were more experiments - even after more than 60 years I can't stand to read about them without getting sick.

I'm not trying to excuse it but truth is that the Americans (and the Brits) where eager, even during WWII, to get these results and the scientists involved for their own purposes -and make a killing out of it (almost no pun intended). They chose their prisoners of war ...
Not to mention that at least the Americans use their own people for horrible medical experiments. All for military superiotity. Or for money.

No morals when it comes to money.

Nowadays they torture animals for a 'better life' for humans.
Not acceptable either.

Pete4779

This is quite an interesting topic. I don't think these days that any German should feel any "guilt" about the past, despite generations of Germans criticising their parents for what they did (or "did not know", to paraphrase).

I don't think culture changes very much, except for in large cities which are quite different to the majority of a population that live in much smaller cities and towns.

In 2007, I can say that I've never met a rude or ignorant German, or English person. At any time in history, you do what you have to do, and you adapt to the larger societal norms.

Given what communism did, and the fact that Hitler was considerably more focussed on that that the somewhat inconsequential goings on in the US and UK (with whom he wanted peace according to history, at least initially), and the atrociities they subsequently inflicted upon the territories they assumed after the war (e.g., Vienna - which "could probably survive another war, but not another liberation"), I think while Nazism resulted in a dire aspect to humanity being realised more quickly and efficiently than any other nearby cultural group (e.g., French, Dutch, British), it was inevitable in the circumstances of the era.

What I think that many find fascinating is that so much could be achieved so quickly, in the right circumstances. The ruthless efficiency, deplorable, but yet admired.

I have read many posts on boards.ie criticising modern Ireland, yet maybe we are realising our own cultural ambitions very quickly as well, and this is why we may face difficulties sooner rather than later. To adapt to a system (i.e., capitalism) so fast and to outshine so many so soon, there could be a reasonably pertinent backlash.

Didn't Hitler outlaw smoking?

SimpleSam06

d22ontour wrote: »

According to media reports they did but in reality killing 1 million+ civilians* in any colonisation is no worse than killing 5m+ jews in 4/5 years.

The most horrifying thing about the Nazis for the Western person wasn't that they committed these atrocities. Arguably other nations have done as bad or worse, and many of them are actually proud of their "imperial" history.

It was that it was one of us, one of the affluent, educated, enlightened first world nations, not one of the tin pot brown people with a machete in a far off land.

This is what makes their actions so foul to western eyes - it brought us face to face with the fact that even a modern, sophisticated technological nation was just as capable of savagery as any tribal headhunter. Considerably more capable, in fact, considering the resources applied and the logistical knowledge deployed - cold, clinical savagery on an industrial scale.

More so because Germany was probably one of the most advanced countries in the world at the time, at least in certain areas. Never mind the autobahn, many of Hitler's fortifications in Berlin are still standing because its basically impossible to destroy the yokes. The light machine gun used by the US army to this very day is basically the same as that used by the German army in world war 2, and their helmets are almost exactly the same. Marketing groups are still relearning how the German propaganda machine worked so effectively.

Should Germans be made to feel bad for what happened? Of course not, the people born after the war had nothing to do with it. Would you put a man in prison if his grandfather committed a crime? Should they and all of us learn the lesson of the Nazis, that being powerful and intelligent doesn't make you exempt from being a slavering animal?

The answer would have to be yes.

peasant

Just to re-cap a few of the "good" things the Nazis did: (leaving aside all the truly horrific stuff)

The Autobahn

positive: it created a good road network and a good few jobs initially

negative:
-the majority of early Autobahns ran west to east, in order to better stage the attacks on eastern Europe
- the majority of "jobs" on the roadworks was "slave labour". First the local criminals, then prisoners of war
- the enormous cost for the project had dubious finance and could only be re-couped through invading other countries down the line

job creation / economic upturn

positive: yes, it did happen

negative; virtually all of it happend in arms production and related industries, once again financed in such a way that a war would have to be waged in order to recoup the capital.

family values

positive: the family received great social standing and significant monetary incentives

negative: the sole reason for this was to "produce" soldiers for the great German nation. Mothers received a medal for every child they had over a certain number (I think it was three or four upwards)

law and order

positive: Germany had come through a long period of social upheaval and lawlessnes in the streets. The Nazis put a quick stop to that...

negative: ... by ways of a totalitarian police state

put Germany first

positive: even in the 1930's globalisation was already around. The Wall Street crash had thrown the whole world into depression. By flouting all international agreements and putting Germany first, the Nazis got Germany out of this economic depression.

negative: once again with the inevitable outcome that Germany would need to open new resources for itself in the East to pay for it all. The Ukrainian bread basket, the Caspian Sea oil and cheap labour from slavic nations was part of the Nazis plan before they even got to power.




Those people that say that there was something "good" about the Nazis tend to ignore all the negative things and just focus on the positive.

But whatever "good" the Nazis did, it only worked and happend because there was a destinctly evil plan behind it all.



In my humble opinion, anyone saying that there was "some good" in the Nazis' doing or that it "wasn't all bad" is either a dimwit incapable of seing the whole picture or a dangerous demagogue.

While there is help for the former, the latter (like Eva Hermann) must be identified and stripped from their public influence as quickly as possible.

Tha Gopher

They brought record unemployment to near zero (though it could be argued much of this was by shifting people into the military or munitions factories). Its ludicrous to say they did nothing right. Iraq was a much safer place under Saddam, generally speaking. 4 years of western mismanagement has killed almost as many as his 20 odd years in office.

As for the censorship, Im sure that in 1944 when the cities were being blown apart, journalists in Germany who aired their view that things were better in the roaring Weimar state in the 20s wouldnt be given much airtime.

The ironing is delicious.

Sonnenblumen

peasant wrote: »

Just to re-cap a few of the "good" things the Nazis did: (leaving aside all the truly horrific stuff)

The Autobahn

positive: it created a good road network and a good few jobs initially

negative:
-the majority of early Autobahns ran west to east, in order to better stage the attacks on eastern Europe
- the majority of "jobs" on the roadworks was "slave labour". First the local criminals, then prisoners of war
- the enormous cost for the project had dubious finance and could only be re-couped through invading other countries down the line

job creation / economic upturn

positive: yes, it did happen

negative; virtually all of it happend in arms production and related industries, once again financed in such a way that a war would have to be waged in order to recoup the capital.

family values

positive: the family received great social standing and significant monetary incentives

negative: the sole reason for this was to "produce" soldiers for the great German nation. Mothers received a medal for every child they had over a certain number (I think it was three or four upwards)

law and order

positive: Germany had come through a long period of social upheaval and lawlessnes in the streets. The Nazis put a quick stop to that...

negative: ... by ways of a totalitarian police state

put Germany first

positive: even in the 1930's globalisation was already around. The Wall Street crash had thrown the whole world into depression. By flouting all international agreements and putting Germany first, the Nazis got Germany out of this economic depression.

negative: once again with the inevitable outcome that Germany would need to open new resources for itself in the East to pay for it all. The Ukrainian bread basket, the Caspian Sea oil and cheap labour from slavic nations was part of the Nazis plan before they even got to power.




Those people that say that there was something "good" about the Nazis tend to ignore all the negative things and just focus on the positive.

But whatever "good" the Nazis did, it only worked and happend because there was a destinctly evil plan behind it all.



In my humble opinion, anyone saying that there was "some good" in the Nazis' doing or that it "wasn't all bad" is either a dimwit incapable of seing the whole picture or a dangerous demagogue.

While there is help for the former, the latter (like Eva Hermann) must be identified and stripped from their public influence as quickly as possible.

your list of notable achievements overlooked some other significant achievements including nuclear science, rocket propulsion more specifically rocket engineering (many of the German scientists were post WWII discreetly allowed emigrate to USA to work with on early space research and the exploratory missions etc). The humble VW Beetle can trace it's origins back to the Hitler specified 'People's car' Volks Wagon, which is still in production today. Architectural innovations which can be seen the world over even today.

There are others. To deny some of the positive accomplishments is to deny history, and hardly worthy of being called a 'dimwit'. The latter is more closely aligned with ignorant and/or prejudice. Needless to say but in case, the positives should not in any way deflect awareness of the substantive horrors attributable to Nazi crimes/doctrine/politics.

peasant

Sonnenblumen wrote: »

your list of notable achievements overlooked some other significant achievements including nuclear science, rocket propulsion more specifically rocket engineering (many of the German scientists were post WWII discreetly allowed emigrate to USA to work with on early space research and the exploratory missions etc). The humble VW Beetle can trace it's origins back to the Hitler specified 'People's car' Volks Wagon, which is still in production today. Architectural innovations which can be seen the world over even today.

Let's get one thing clear here:

"The Nazis" were a political party / political movement with certain sinister goals.

"They" did NOT invent rocket propulsion, nuclear physics nor even the humble Beetle.
Some brilliant individuals did that, scientists, engineers ...not "The Nazis".

The Nazi part only used these people (some of them more willingly than others) and exploited their skills and knowledge as a means to their end.

The top brass of the Nazi party between them (with the exception of maybe Albert Speer) had about enough "genius" to repair a bycicle puncture. Most of them didn't even have enough "genius" to recognise a good thing when it was shoved right into their face.

Simple example:
The Messerschmitt jet fighter. It was first prototyped in the early 40's as an interceptor plane. The Nazis dismissed it, saying they wanted to attack and not defend themselves and instructed Messerschmitt to make it into a long range "fast bomber" instead to finally bring England to its knees. These instructions were upheld even through the period when mass production of the jet fighter could have effectively stopped the devastating allied bombing runs that crippled Germany ...instead resources were pumped into the bomber development.
Finally ...when most of Messerschmitts' production capability was bombed to bits by the allies, only then did they want a fighter. It was too late then of course (thankfully, in hindsight)

Even the simple "peoples car" was nothing but a ruse. It got ordinary people excited about being able to have a car for the first time. For that, the Nazis invented a special savings scheme, where hundreds of thousand of ordinary workers made monthly payments towards their future cars.
The totality of these funds was ploughed into what is now Wolfsburg, to make "Kuebelwagen" and other armaments for the war effort. The people never saw a penny of their money back, never mind a Volkswagen.

It was in fact the British that made the first ever civilian VW Beetle (other than pre-war prototypes) in Wolfsburg, after the war

The only thing that "the Nazis" excelled in was propaganda and a ruthless regime of terror and exploitation.

peasant

It would be fair to say that under the Nazi regime, often even despite the Nazi regime, some things took place / were achived that, looked at on their own, could be desrcibed as "positive".

But it would be very wrong to attribute these "positives" to the Nazi Party.
Everything "positive" they ever did was as a means to a very, very negative end ...i.e. world domination by "superior" race and exploitation and eventual extinction of "inferior" races.

And don't forget ..."inferior races" did not just cover the Jewish people, but all Slavic people, all couloured people (Asian or African) and about every minority group going.

So once this is taken into the picture, nothing ...nothing at all ... that happened under the Nazi regime can ever be seen as "positive".
They did nothing out of the "kindness of their hearts" or "for the greater good" or to "the advancement of humankind" ...everything and everyone had to serve THEIR purpose and THEIR purpose alone.


That some things/inventions/ ideas from that regime could be brought to a positive use afterwards is a different matter ...but none of them were invented/introduced/thought up with that particular afterwards in mind.


To my mind, this is where the "one in four" (Germans or whoever may have that view) get confused. They fail to see that what now, under our circumstances, may be seen as "positive" certainly wasn't meant in a positive way when the Nazi regime introduced it.

Orange69

peasant wrote: »

Let's get one thing clear here:

"The Nazis" were a political party / political movement with certain sinister goals.

"They" did NOT invent rocket propulsion, nuclear physics nor even the humble Beetle.
Some brilliant individuals did that, scientists, engineers ...not "The Nazis".

The Nazi part only used these people (some of them more willingly than others) and exploited their skills and knowledge as a means to their end.

The top brass of the Nazi party between them (with the exception of maybe Albert Speer) had about enough "genius" to repair a bycicle puncture. Most of them didn't even have enough "genius" to recognise a good thing when it was shoved right into their face.

Simple example:
The Messerschmitt jet fighter. It was first prototyped in the early 40's as an interceptor plane. The Nazis dismissed it, saying they wanted to attack and not defend themselves and instructed Messerschmitt to make it into a long range "fast bomber" instead to finally bring England to its knees. These instructions were upheld even through the period when mass production of the jet fighter could have effectively stopped the devastating allied bombing runs that crippled Germany ...instead resources were pumped into the bomber development.
Finally ...when most of Messerschmitts' production capability was bombed to bits by the allies, only then did they want a fighter. It was too late then of course (thankfully, in hindsight)

Even the simple "peoples car" was nothing but a ruse. It got ordinary people excited about being able to have a car for the first time. For that, the Nazis invented a special savings scheme, where hundreds of thousand of ordinary workers made monthly payments towards their future cars.
The totality of these funds was ploughed into what is now Wolfsburg, to make "Kuebelwagen" and other armaments for the war effort. The people never saw a penny of their money back, never mind a Volkswagen.

It was in fact the British that made the first ever civilian VW Beetle (other than pre-war prototypes) in Wolfsburg, after the war

The only thing that "the Nazis" excelled in was propaganda and a ruthless regime of terror and exploitation.

Thats a very naive take on things. The great scientific achievements in Germany during the third reich were as a response to nazi policies and programs at the time. You cannot just separate "The Nazi's" and everyone else. The Nazi ideology permeated all aspects of German life for over a decade.

Your example of the jet fighter is also quite naive. At the time the jet fighter program was pushed aside Germany was on the offensive. For the time they arguably made the right decision.

peasant

And finally:

Sonnenblumen wrote: »

...To deny some of the positive accomplishments is to deny history...

Wrong !

To look at anyting that was ever done under the Nazi regime in a positive light, is to thoroughly falsify history.

There was nothing positve there, because even the seemingly "positive" aspects served an evil purpose.

By that fact alone they could never be positive.


What brought the Nazis to power and kept them there, was the inability of the German people and the world as whole to grasp the fact that this was a thoroughly evil regime through and through. People just did not want to see this, were incapable of believing that such total evil could exist and were desperatly grasping at "positives" to try and make sense of it all and not to despair completely.

Such behaviour was (to a degree) excusable and understandable then.
To try and find "positives" in the Nazi regime now and with clear historical hindsight is inexcusable (unless due to a lack of intellectual capability) and puts any person that does so clearly into dangerously close to * the Neo-Nazi camp.

*Edited on second and third thought

peasant

Orange69 wrote: »

The great scientific achievements in Germany during the third reich were as a response to nazi policies and programs at the time. You cannot just separate "The Nazi's" and everyone else. The Nazi ideology permeated all aspects of German life for over a decade.

Precisely !

See post no 95

Orange69

peasant wrote: »

Such behaviour was (to a degree) excusable and understandable then.
To try and find "positives" in the Nazi regime now and with clear historical hindsight is inexcusable (unless due to a lack of intellectual capability) and puts any person that does so clearly into the Neo-Nazi camp.

You just lost all credibility with that statement..

Firstly it must be lonely up there on your high horse and secondly the world is not a black and white place.. There are lots of shades of grey. Because someone agrees that the Nazi rocket program was a great achievement does not make them an idiot or a neo-Nazi.

Binomate

If the Nazi's didn't base their ideas on supremacy, and hadn't killed all the Jews, Hitler would have been the greatest thing that ever happened to Germany since Bismark.

The Nazi party did wonders for the German economy with the 4 year plans during the 30's. Everything from building the Autobahns to building industry. They however obviously had a much greater bad side.

peasant

Orange69 wrote: »

You just lost all credibility with that statement..

Firstly it must be lonely up there on your high horse and secondly the world is not a black and white place.. There are lots of shades of grey. Because someone agrees that the Nazi rocket program was a great achievement does not make them an idiot or a neo-Nazi.

The Nazi rocket programme was a great technical achievement at the time ... that's not the point.

The point is, that rocket programme wasn't carried out for the advancement of technology, or to put people on the moon or so that we could launch weather sattelites into orbit, but to bomb first the Uk and then eventually the US east coast into oblivion.

Now ...where is the "positive" in that ??


To "generously overlook" the sinister motives and just hail the "achievement" simply is wrong.

You cannot take these things out of context. If you do so, you're either too dim to see the whole picture, or you have another motive like painting the Nazi regime in a good light ...like Neo-Nazis do all the time.