One in four Germans believes that the Nazis had their good side

peasant

Binomate wrote: »

If the Nazi's didn't base their ideas on supremacy, and hadn't killed all the Jews, Hitler would have been the greatest thing that ever happened to Germany since Bismark.

Problem is, they did though

Even if the Nazis hadn't killed a single Jew...
Their whole "economic success" was based on money lent to them by German industrialists on the promise that they would get their share of conquered territories and cheap labour once the East was conquered ...which they did.

What's "great" about that?

Orange69

peasant wrote: »

The Nazi rocket programme was a great technical achievement at the time ... that's not the point.

The point is, that rocket programme wasn't carried out for the advancement of technology, or to put people on the moon or so that we could launch weather sattelites into orbit, but to bomb first the Uk and then eventually the US east coast into oblivion.

Now ...where is the "positive" in that ??


To "generously overlook" the sinister motives and just hail the "achievement" simply is wrong.

You cannot take these things out of context. If you do so, you're either too dim to see the whole picture, or you have another motive like painting the Nazi regime in a good light ...like Neo-Nazis do all the time.

Science is rarely advanced for the sake of it, their is usually a reason, be it money, survival etc.. Necessity is the mother of invention and all that..

Their are countless technologies that were designed for a military purpose but emerged to have a positive effect on humanity as a whole.. The internet is one..

Ironically for someone who is so anti-nazi you sure do sound like one... "I am right and if you disagree you are an idiot or evil" :rolleyes:

Terry

peasant wrote: »

You cannot take these things out of context. If you do so, you're either too dim to see the whole picture, or you have another motive like painting the Nazi regime in a good light ...like Neo-Nazis do all the time.

Orange69 wrote: »

Ironically for someone who is so anti-nazi you sure do sound like one... "I am right and if you disagree you are an idiot or evil" :rolleyes:

Careful now.
Labelling anyone as a NAZI will result in a ban.

Orange69

Terry wrote: »

Careful now.
Labelling anyone as a NAZI will result in a ban.

Fair enough, how about a communist?

I don't think this discussion is going anywhere anyway..

peasant

Orange69

The question is not if I am right or not, but how wrong the Nazis truly were.

What many people fail to understand is that while most things in this world are on a greyscale, the Nazis really and truly were black and white only.

Where a lot of people also get confused is that they equate the whole population of Germany between 33 and 45 with "the Nazis". (EDIT: and thus may make allowances for the ordinary people and their actions/inactions)

The Nazis as such, the hard core of the movement were a few tenthousand people.

By the time they came to power, they had all of 30% of the German vote. They used certain weaknesses of the German constitution to install themselves as a totalitarion power and from then on in they simply took over the whole nation by a reign of terror. Nazis were installed into all key positions and the oppostion was swiftly suffocated. (Not only did they throw their opponents into contentration camps, but they arrested their whole family for example). By the time most people realised what was going on, it was too late already. Resistance carried the severest consequences. So you had no choice but to wave the flag and at least appear supportive.
Your children were sucked into the Hitler youth organisations and drilled in Nazi ideology, so you couldn't even speak freely in front of your own kids anymore out of fear they'd rat on you in the morning.

There was no escaping them ...

I do understand and follow your "necessity is the mother of all invention" argument ...just in the case of the Nazi inventions it does not and can not (must not) apply.

The only reason why anything good ever came out of them is because the Nazis were defeated.

Had that not happened, the very same rockets that you so admire would today be targeted on wherever it is you live, to ensure that you keep quiet and follow the party line.

How would you like that "great invention" then ?

palaver

The discussion reminds me by now of Heinrich Boell's Irish Diary. There is a story, I think it's titled "The Ambulant Political Dentist", where he describes how he tried to explain to an Irishman why Hitler was bad.

He didn't really succeed.

About 12 years ago I actually met this 'Padraic' in Boell's story in a pub in Achill. He was in his nineties, but still didn't get over it that his friend Heinrich, 'otherwise a nice chap', insisted that Hitler's regime didn't really produce anything good.

But at least Boell made a lovely story out of it.
So go on peasant! Make an effort!

peasant

palaver wrote: »

So go on peasant! Make an effort!

And there I was, thinking I had ... :D:D

Acid_Violet

palaver wrote: »

I disagree. There was nothing whatsoever good with the Nazis. Apart from killing millions of people, marching into and destroying other countries, disregarding international agreements and human rights and creating an atmosphere of hatred and mistrust they destroyed books, arts and everything which was good in Germany.
They had bad taste! Unforgivable! :eek:;)

And for the Autobahn (motorway), the first one was built before the Nazis seized power. Only Hitler later degraded it to a national road just to say he invented the Autobahn.

They cared about the environment and animals a lot. That was something good, although completely ironic, considering the holocaust and all.........

humanji

peasant wrote: »

I do understand and follow your "necessity is the mother of all invention" argument ...just in the case of the Nazi inventions it does not and can not (must not) apply.

And that pretty much sums up your argument. You're thinking emotively and as such can't see logically. As a result of the Nazi regime, the world gained a shed load of technology. There was a war and the Nazis devloped weapons that now help us live our everyday lives. If you want to deny it, then stop using all the things that they helped develope. The rest of us will keep on using them

Sonnenblumen

peasant wrote: »

And finally:



Wrong !

To look at anyting that was ever done under the Nazi regime in a positive light, is to thoroughly falsify history.

There was nothing positve there, because even the seemingly "positive" aspects served an evil purpose.

By that fact alone they could never be positive.


What brought the Nazis to power and kept them there, was the inability of the German people and the world as whole to grasp the fact that this was a thoroughly evil regime through and through. People just did not want to see this, were incapable of believing that such total evil could exist and were desperatly grasping at "positives" to try and make sense of it all and not to despair completely.

Such behaviour was (to a degree) excusable and understandable then.
To try and find "positives" in the Nazi regime now and with clear historical hindsight is inexcusable (unless due to a lack of intellectual capability) and puts any person that does so clearly into the Neo-Nazi camp.

I would like to also get something straight, your interpretation of the period is very narrow, cynical and lacks any objectivity whatsoever. I take offense at your insulting comments and in a particular the insinuation that I am a neo-Nazi.

Peasant - You do lack credibility and I doubt your interpretation would stand up to scrutiny. I'm not going to insult you Peasant, but suffice to say that to engage with you Peasant serves no purpose.

peasant

humanji wrote: »

As a result of the Nazi regime, the world gained a shed load of technology. There was a war and the Nazis devloped weapons that now help us live our everyday lives.

Allow me to re-phrase that a little:

As a result of the defeat of the Nazi regime, the world was left with a shed load of war related technology.

The Nazis were intent on ruling the world and developed technology to that aim.

We have now found peaceful uses for some of that technology.

Spot the difference?

Sonnenblumen

peasant wrote: »

And finally:

Such behaviour was (to a degree) excusable and understandable then.
To try and find "positives" in the Nazi regime now and with clear historical hindsight is inexcusable (unless due to a lack of intellectual capability) and puts any person that does so clearly into the Neo-Nazi camp.

Terry wrote: »

Careful now.
Labelling anyone as a NAZI will result in a ban.

Peasant has clearly attacked me with insult as well as labelling me as a Nazi.

palaver

Acid_Violet wrote: »

They cared about the environment and animals a lot. That was something good, although completely ironic, considering the holocaust and all.........

Yeah, isn't it just ironic with the holocaust and all ... :rolleyes:
I'm sure, all those who died in the gas chambers were glad that the exhaust didn't damage the environment. I'm sure all the concentration camps were built environmentally friendly. And all the little doggies rejoiced because they were not the ones who got kicked to death, instead were allowed to be trained to attack.

They did indeed create the first nature protection law in Europe, though based on older ideas which didn't come from their own ranks. And not because they "cared" about the environment, it was only used for creating protected areas. There were three reasons which had nothing to do with nature: 1. healthy Germans breathing fresh air in German forests to produce healthy children which were fit enough to conquer the world. 2. to protect the German forests which were a Germanic ideal 3. all the newly protected areas were private hunting grounds for the Nazi elite who didn't give a fiddler's about killing animals and destroying the woods.

humanji wrote: »

... There was a war and the Nazis devloped weapons that now help us live our everyday lives. If you want to deny it, then stop using all the things that they helped develope.

I hope very much that peasant will stop using all the weapons the Nazis developped!
But I'm still wondering how these weapons should help us all to live our every day lives. *looks around the house to find Nazi-weapons*
Please explain.


I don't know why most of you are so desperate to find something good in the Nazis. Makes me wonder about your mindset ...

nesf

peasant wrote: »

the Nazis really and truly were black and white only.

Actually the Nazis had a complex system of racial profiling. To say they ignored the Asians does them a disservice.

peasant

Sonnenblumen wrote: »

I would like to also get something straight, your interpretation of the period is very narrow, cynical and lacks any objectivity whatsoever.

My interpretation?

What is there to interpret?

Thanks to "deutsche Gruendlichkeit" there is a precise, detailed and archived record of every injustice, blackmail, incarceration, political murder, act of war, human rights violation, crime against humanity and genocide ever committed in this period... down to the last old shoe that was collected from a gassed Jewish body.

Interpretation of this record is not possible. You cannot, by definition, interpret an accomplished, proven and documented fact, you can only recognise it.

You can also not be "objective" about six million slaughtered people.

It is what it is ...pure evil.


I know that it may be hard to grasp for some people, that fellow human beings can be purely evil, but this is exactly why we must not be "objective" about what happened under the Nazi regime.
People have the capability for pure evil, the Nazis were the proof of it and we must not let it happen again.


Oh yes, the warden in Auschwitz may have loved his wife and kissed his kids goodnight ... but he dropped the gas canisters through the hatch again the following morning all the same.

peasant

Sonnenblumen wrote: »

Peasant has clearly attacked me with insult as well as labelling me as a Nazi.

Sonnenblumen

I shouldn't have done that, label you personally as a Nazi. That's not what I meant to say and I apologise.

I have edited my original post accordingly.

humanji

peasant wrote: »

Spot the difference?

Yeah, you highlighted my point perfectly. There are now perfectly good uses of the technology that the Nazis developed. I'm glad that you see that now.

palaver wrote:

I hope very much that peasant will stop using all the weapons the Nazis developped!
But I'm still wondering how these weapons should help us all to live our every day lives. *looks around the house to find Nazi-weapons*
Please explain.

To quote myself from earlier:

So, you never flown on a jet plane then? Never saw the rockets sent into space? Never listened to a magnetic cassette tape? Never used a computer? Never heard of the Wankel engine or stealth technology? Oh, and they also invented the blowup doll

Sonnenblumen wrote:

Peasant has clearly attacked me with insult as well as labelling me as a Nazi.

I'm hoping that's a piss take, but it's too late and I'm too drunk to know better

Pete4779

Does anyone have an opinion on the Ru-486 "Mifepristone" drug used in abortions, developed by a subsidiary created from IG Farben which was broken up after the war (they used to make the Zyklon-B)?

It was/is used in the abortion "factories" in China as part of their own population control system.

(as an aside, there is nothing at all black and white regarding Nazi germany. It does make it easier for some people to simply say "they are evil and the allies were good". Likewise "that man tried to kill my daddy".).

The reason it is still debated for one thing is that it was an incredibly complex period in history and still has impact on the modern world. For one of the most studied and debated parts of history, we still have no clear idea of what the nazi-post war plan was. This, I think, is a big no-no for historians for some reasons, because the nazis kept records of everything, and planned so much, even operations that never happened (e.g., Unternehmen Gruen), so why would they not have plans for the resulting administrative, economic and military system of europe after the war?

Anyway, I'm off the bank to get some euros, and then I'll have a read of the EU reform treaty, I wonder if there is anything about the EU Rapid Reaction Force in it? I wouldn't mind a smoke and a pint, but no smoking in pubs eh! Bummer! I wonder where the idea of making smoking illegal came from.

If the end result is the same, but it took 60 years of negotiations and not killing, did they really lose at all?

Terry

I've added a poll.
I put in black & white optiions and have also given a couple of viewpoint options.
If anyone wants to suggest another option, I will add it, but only if it has a good vs evil thingy.

Pete4779, please do not bring up abortion here.

If you wish to discuss aborton, then I suggest you use the Humanities forum.
AH is not the place for that sort of thing.

Sonnenblumen

It would have seem straightforward but interesting to discuss what aspects of the notorious Nazi regime could be considered good. Yes the whole debate about th emass murder, brutality, etc etc is not part of this debate. The negatives are a given and are not being overlooked. But can we focus on what might be considered positive aspects/elements perhaps which even still in today's world have relevance and have contributed in a positive way from what was otherwise what was a rampant genoicidal political zealots.

Adolf Hitler, once said from the Terracce of hi summer residence, Kehlstein House in Berchtesgaden, "From here I can everything that I want, and what I do not see, I do not want". The irony of this statement is that he forcibly removed all local inhabitants after they had refused to sell their properties, so that he could enjoy exclusive enjoyment of the moutain. If only he could have stopped then.

Mr.Nice Guy

The Nazis were a load of gimps.

Sonnenblumen

Joseph Begun was a pioneer in the field of magnetic recording.

The V-2 Missile was developed in Germany from 1936 through the efforts of scientists led by Wernher von Braun.

In 1885, Gottlieb Daimler invented a gas engine that allowed for a revolution in car design.

Rudolf Diesel was the German inventor of the diesel fueled internal combustion engine

Hans Geiger co-invented the geiger counter.

The geissler tube named after Heinrich Geissler, a German glassblower.

Edmund Germer invented a high pressure vapor lamp, his development of the improved fluorescent lamp and the high-pressure mercury-vapor lamp allowed for more economical lighting with less heat.

Otto von Guericke The inventor of the nothing we call a vacuum.

Heinrich Hertz
The unit of frequency of a radio wave - one cycle per second - is named the hertz, in honor of Heinrich Hertz.

In 1899, a German chemist named Felix Hoffmann, who worked for a German company called Bayer, rediscovered aspirin.

Gabriele Knecht patented the Forward Sleeve design for creating clothing.

On June 10 1941 Lamarr and composer George Antheil received a patent for their invention of a classified communication system that was especially useful for submarines.

German engineer, Carl von Linden, patented the process of liquifying gas in 1876 that is part of basic refrigeration technology.
Paul Nipkow

Hermann Oberth was a famous German rocket scientist

Wilhelm Conrad Röntgen discovered X-rays.

Max Knott and Ernst Ruska co-invented the electron microscope.
Charles Proteus Steinmetz

Charles Proteus Steinmetz was a pioneer in the field of electrical engineering who invented a commercially successful alternating current motor.

Konrad Zuse was the creator of the first freely programmable computer.
Erfinder

Many would consider the 3 greatest inventions which the Germans have given the world: Autos, Wurst and Bier.

palaver

Sonnenblumen wrote: »

Joseph Begun was a pioneer in the field of magnetic recording.

The V-2 Missile was developed in Germany from 1936 through the efforts of scientists led by Wernher von Braun.

In 1885, Gottlieb Daimler invented a gas engine that allowed for a revolution in car design.

Rudolf Diesel was the German inventor of the diesel fueled internal combustion engine

Hans Geiger co-invented the geiger counter.

The geissler tube named after Heinrich Geissler, a German glassblower.

Edmund Germer invented a high pressure vapor lamp, his development of the improved fluorescent lamp and the high-pressure mercury-vapor lamp allowed for more economical lighting with less heat.

Otto von Guericke The inventor of the nothing we call a vacuum.

Heinrich Hertz
The unit of frequency of a radio wave - one cycle per second - is named the hertz, in honor of Heinrich Hertz.

In 1899, a German chemist named Felix Hoffmann, who worked for a German company called Bayer, rediscovered aspirin.

Gabriele Knecht patented the Forward Sleeve design for creating clothing.

On June 10 1941 Lamarr and composer George Antheil received a patent for their invention of a classified communication system that was especially useful for submarines.

German engineer, Carl von Linden, patented the process of liquifying gas in 1876 that is part of basic refrigeration technology.
Paul Nipkow

Hermann Oberth was a famous German rocket scientist

Wilhelm Conrad Röntgen discovered X-rays.

Max Knott and Ernst Ruska co-invented the electron microscope.
Charles Proteus Steinmetz

Charles Proteus Steinmetz was a pioneer in the field of electrical engineering who invented a commercially successful alternating current motor.

Konrad Zuse was the creator of the first freely programmable computer.
Erfinder

Many would consider the 3 greatest inventions which the Germans have given the world: Autos, Wurst and Bier.

Semi Joseph Begun was a Jew and emigrated 1935 to the USA.

Wernher von Braun worked first on moon rockets but was "forced" to work on rockets to carry bombs to London. In his factory in Peenemuende concentration camp prisoners were forced to work.

Gottlieb Daimler lived long befor the concept of nazism appeared. (in the 19. century)
So did Rudolf Diesel.
So did Heinrich Geissler.
So did Felix Hoffmann.
So did Heinrich Hertz.
So did Carl von Linden.

Hans Geiger invented it before Nazis came to power, turned into a Nazi himself and ratted on his Jewish collegues. We know hat that meant.

Edmund Germer's invention was patented 1926 in the USA and used by General Electrics (USA).

Otto von Guericke lived in the 17. century.

Gabriele Knecht was born 1938 and emigrated to the USA in 1948. She invented whatever in the USA.

Hedy Lamarr and Antheil worked on it for the benefit of the allies, not the Nazis! It was patented in the USA.

I stop here now, because I don't really see the point in counting all German inventions.
The Nazis didn't invent much, they used inventions made often by Jews or by people prior to 1933.

What they braught to perfection (apart from mass murder) is propaganda, as we can all see until today. It still works.

palaver

Sonnenblumen wrote: »

Many would consider the 3 greatest inventions which the Germans have given the world: Autos, Wurst and Bier.

As an afterthought on a lazy sunday:

Autos: The principle of motors was invented by a Dutchman, later developed by French, Belgian, Suisse and English inventors. The Germans (Daimler & Benz) perfectionated it and produced usable cars - as did Henry Ford.

Wurst: Sausages were already popular among the ancient Greeks and the Romans. The Germans perfectionated the art of wurst-making and produced the biggest variety of sausages.

Bier: Beer was first mentioned in Mesopotamia (that's Iraq nowadays). The ancient Egyptians drank beer as did the Romans and the Celts. The Germans only regulated the brewing process and mass-produced it.

Now what does that say about the Germans?

Pete4779

palaver wrote: »

As an afterthought on a lazy sunday:

Autos: The principle of motors was invented by a Dutchman, later developed by French, Belgian, Suisse and English inventors. The Germans (Daimler & Benz) perfectionated it and produced usable cars - as did Henry Ford.

I think Karl Benz is attributed with "inventing" the automobile because he made the first working internal combustion engine for a car (he called it the Motorwagen) and got a patent for it and all it's components. It is not about the "priniciple of motors" - whatever that is. His wife Bertha took it without him knowing and drove it from Mannheim to Pforzheim making it the first significant distance covered in a car.

If we are going to be silly, we would say that John from Clonsilla invented the "principle of motors" by blowing up a cannister of oil in his back garden in the year 1250, but we don't. The Romans were using oil to lights lights - perhaps they should be credited with inventing the car instead?

Who is this Dutchman you speak of? PLease name the Dutch, French, Belgian, Swiss (I note the French spelling you gave) and English people you mentioned that invented the internal combustion engine before Karl Benz?

Sir Digby Chicken Caesar

is palaver a member of la resistance?

Terry

It seems three out of four people who partook in this poll believe the nazis had a good side.

Sir Digby Chicken Caesar

cmon boys! Tomorrow we march on Israel!

ejmaztec

Mordeth wrote: »

cmon boys! Tomorrow we march on Israel!

Waste of time marching, we can all go in Mein Kampfer!

palaver

Pete4779 wrote: »

I think Karl Benz is attributed with "inventing" the automobile because he made the first working internal combustion engine for a car (he called it the Motorwagen) and got a patent for it and all it's components. It is not about the "priniciple of motors" - whatever that is. His wife Bertha took it without him knowing and drove it from Mannheim to Pforzheim making it the first significant distance covered in a car.

If we are going to be silly, we would say that John from Clonsilla invented the "principle of motors" by blowing up a cannister of oil in his back garden in the year 1250, but we don't. The Romans were using oil to lights lights - perhaps they should be credited with inventing the car instead?

Who is this Dutchman you speak of? PLease name the Dutch, French, Belgian, Swiss (I note the French spelling you gave) and English people you mentioned that invented the internal combustion engine before Karl Benz?

You are right of course. But I was in such a controversial mood regarding Sonnenblumen's list of Geman inventions that I generously over-looked the traditionally agreed facts.
His/her list doesn't have anything to do with inventions by Nazis, it's just a random collection of inventors.

For the record, read this link (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Automobile), I wasn't really that wrong, and we can discuss forever who was the first to invent the car. Maybe we should eventually honour the guy who invented the wheel?
As for John from Clonsilla and blowing up a canister ... I wouldn't be surprised if the Irish claim the invention of explosions :D

Mordeth wrote: »

is palaver a member of la resistance?

Non, palaver n'est pas un membre de la resistance. I'm not that old!

Terry wrote: »

It seems three out of four people who partook in this poll believe the nazis had a good side.

I give up.
If the same poll would be done in Ireland as the one in Germany, the outcome would even be worse, I'm afraid.

Pete4779

palaver wrote: »

You are right of course... Maybe we should eventually honour the guy who invented the wheel?
As for John from Clonsilla and blowing up a canister ... I wouldn't be surprised if the Irish claim the invention of explosions :D

Ah ok . The list there seemed to have very little to do with Nazis anyway. German areas were at the centre of the industrial revolution and still lead the way in industry in many areas - it is no surprise many engineering achievements came from that area (not Germany per se as it didn't exist in it's current form back then).

While the autobahn is largely credited to the Nazis, it actually started in the Weimar republic, but the corruption of that system (no surprise, we sort of have our own Weimar in Ireland today) meant it never got very far until the Nazis took over.

Again, it's that paradox - the system that you want to clean the knacker scum off the streets is the one which would send them to concentration camps. The roads are in a shambles because of local planning absue and corruption, the system that achieved the best roads in the world (? are they?) would have had the corrupt politicians and councillors executed.

So where is the balance? To have an utter shambles because nothing gets done? Or to become a fascist state where societal dreams can be achieved but at enormous cost. Somewhere in between is probably the best bet, like France - great roads but you pay extra!

Acid_Violet

palaver wrote: »

Yeah, isn't it just ironic with the holocaust and all ... :rolleyes:
I'm sure, all those who died in the gas chambers were glad that the exhaust didn't damage the environment. I'm sure all the concentration camps were built environmentally friendly. And all the little doggies rejoiced because they were not the ones who got kicked to death, instead were allowed to be trained to attack.

They did indeed create the first nature protection law in Europe, though based on older ideas which didn't come from their own ranks. And not because they "cared" about the environment, it was only used for creating protected areas. There were three reasons which had nothing to do with nature: 1. healthy Germans breathing fresh air in German forests to produce healthy children which were fit enough to conquer the world. 2. to protect the German forests which were a Germanic ideal 3. all the newly protected areas were private hunting grounds for the Nazi elite who didn't give a fiddler's about killing animals and destroying the woods.

You've kind of proven my point.
Not for one second am I saying that the Nazi's were all good or mainly good, I'm saying that they did have their good side.

Wanting to produce fresh air is a good thing, even if the only reason for this was so the Germans could conquer the world. The fact that they acted on the good ideas of others to create the first nature protection law in Europe is good too. Protecting German forests (even if only for German ideals) are good too. To say all is purely good or purely evil is silly. At the end of the day, can you definitely say this is true of all Nazi's: the newly protected areas were private hunting grounds for the Nazi elite who didn't give a fiddler's about killing animals and destroying the woods. Although probably fact-based, still speculation.

Sonnenblumen

palaver wrote: »

I stop here now, because I don't really see the point in counting all German inventions.
The Nazis didn't invent much, they used inventions made often by Jews or by people prior to 1933.

What they braught to perfection (apart from mass murder) is propaganda, as we can all see until today. It still works.

Palaver, thanks for your response to the random list of German inventors. Despite your best efforts to pull it apart, you did prove in a convincing way that your main motivation was lack of objectivity that the Nazis did not achieve any notable results.

You clearly prove that prejudice is easily found.

palaver

Oh Herr, schmeiss Hirn vom Himmel ...:rolleyes:

DonJose

LOL from the poll results

Two in four Irish believed that the Nazis had their good side.

DonJose

Terry wrote: »

It seems three out of four people who partook in this poll believe the nazis had a good side.

Well yesterday "YES" was at 40%, now its 50% :eek:

Bundesrepublik Irland

Sir Digby Chicken Caesar

I think the allies had their good side too, and they dropped thousands of explosive packed bombs on civilians.. on purpose... to kill as many civilians as possible.

it wasn't just the jews, the poles, the homosexuals, the roma's and whoever else hitler decided to pick on that suffered. Everyone did, on both sides. except us.
we're special.

DublinWriter

peasant wrote: »

The Nazi rocket programme was a great technical achievement at the time ... that's not the point.

To "generously overlook" the sinister motives and just hail the "achievement" simply is wrong.

...or maybe you mean 'heil' the achievement?

War is generally good for business. Don't forget Britain also came up with the first programmable computer and developed Cathode Ray technology during WW2.

As Orson Wells said in The Third Man:

In Italy, for thirty years under the Borgias they had warfare, terror, murder, bloodshed -- but they produced Michelangelo, Leonardo da Vinci, and the Renaissance. In Switzerland, they had brotherly love. They had 500 years of democracy and peace, and what did that produce? The cuckoo clock.

jester77

I take it this whole debate and aforementioned poll is based on Eva Hermans comments regarding her autobiography and some comments she made about the how women's principles have changed since the Nazi regime?

SimpleSam06

Acid_Violet wrote: »

Not for one second am I saying that the Nazi's were all good or mainly good, I'm saying that they did have their good side.

I think you might be confusing "good" with "efficient" or "creative", and even then only in certain ways. The Nazis were like the Russians; give a Russian man a job designing a shoe, he'll come back with a shoe box. Give a Russian a job designing something to kill Germans, he turns into Thomas Edison.

However, there was nothing good about the Nazis.

Terry

Isn't efficieny a good thing?

DonJose

digitally-yours wrote: »

The sheep row is covered here
Incase someone wants to know the background

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/6980766.stm

Looks like their poster worked. They secured 62 of the 200 seats in the lower house of parliament over the weekend.


"The anti-immigrant Swiss People's Party has become the most popular political group in the country since the end of the First World War.


The party, which was a member of the outgoing coalition, secured 62 of the 200 seats in the lower house of parliament over the weekend.

The SPP attracted much controversy due to its anti-immigrant stance and an election poster that showed three white sheep kicking a black sheep off the Swiss flag."
http://www.independent.ie/breaking-news/world-news/europe/swiss-antiimmigrant-party-gets-huge-election-boost-1201038.html

Tigger

Terry wrote: »

Isn't efficieny a good thing?

efficiency at what tho: catching illegal downloaders?
speeders?
tv license not havers?

ScumLord

Most Germans/Nazis didn't take part in the crimes against humanity. The vast majority didn't know about the concentration camps. They would have just lived normal lifes by any standards. Fair enough they probably all hated jews but that was fairly common throughout the world they took it to another level

National pride makes people ignore all sorts of values.

SimpleSam06

Terry wrote: »

Isn't efficieny a good thing?

Efficiency is an efficient thing. Its not to be confused with being "good" or "bad". Its a bit misleading to say that the Nazis had one good thing going for them, they were efficient. Efficient at doing what? In this case efficiency might well be said to be a bad thing, and not something to emulate.

Mr. Incognito

I'm actually shocked at the level of historical ignorance on the boards. Does anyone know how a country turned to such radicals like the Nazi party in the 1930's?

The german were a proud race dragged into the first war and then had to accept the crippling Treaty of Versaille

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty_of_Versailles

This was a concerted effort by France and Great Britain to humble Germany and fuelled the sentiments that led to the Nazi party coming to power. People should actually have a look at the history of Germany. People were desperate and turned to a party that gave them a platform to vent their frustrations and anger at a minority. We see the same lesson being repeated all over the world in Africa and genocide in the former Yugoslavia etc etc.

Did you know Time named Hitler man of the year in 1937?

I've been lurking in the background and peope are talking about great inventions and autobahns. Yes, the german inventors had an incredible flowering of talent. No-one has even mentioned Einstein yet. Their policital leaning cannot be used as a measure of their talent. Some were socialists some were not. It does not detract or promote from their scientific achievements which are a fact.

Germany, like all empires had good and bad in it. Be those ideas, inventions and achievements. They did however mark their campaign with blatant, though, hidden from the public organised genocide. Many good germans opposed this when it came to their knowledge and the feeling of national shame when it came to light tarred the regime, and rightfully so.

However the Nazi's were not a once off, "different" "evil" Nation. They were no different to many bloodthirsty regimes that exist all over the world.
History is written by the victors and if the nazi's had won the war we'd all be learning about the "evil" Americans who dropped nuculer weopans on two civilian cities twice!

The current American government has learned one thing from the Nazi's well though and that is propoganda. I remember Goering's speech in Nuremberg at his war trial.

"To control the population is easy, tell them they are being attacked and denounce the pacifists as traitors"

shltter

SetantaL wrote: »

Did you know Time named Hitler man of the year in 1937?

"

1938

And i think you are confusing being named Times person of the year with support or Time even liking you
It is the person Time judge to have the most influence on the world for good or bad
Joesph Stalin won it in 1939

And the Ayatollah won it in 1979

and YOU won it last year

Ekancone

I dont recall adding a poll...

Terry

daithifleming wrote: »

I dont recall adding a poll...

I threw it in there to gauge the general feeling here.

bonkey

DublinWriter wrote: »

As Orson Wells said in The Third Man:

In Italy, for thirty years under the Borgias they had warfare, terror, murder, bloodshed -- but they produced Michelangelo, Leonardo da Vinci, and the Renaissance. In Switzerland, they had brotherly love. They had 500 years of democracy and peace, and what did that produce? The cuckoo clock.

I love that quote from Wells...mostly because the Swiss didn't have brotherly love, didn't have 500 years of democracy and peace, and didn't invent the cuckoo clock.

Its a great example of propaganda though. Get enough people to subscribe to the meme, and anyone'll believe it.

Another such meme is the whole "the nazi's gave us the autobahns". They had a number of them built...sure, but they didn't invent them, they didn't come up with the plans they implemented, and its not like the work hasn't been continued since then. But hey...lets not let facts get in the way of good ranting.