One in four Germans believes that the Nazis had their good side

Sonnenblumen

bonkey wrote: »

I love that quote from Wells...mostly because the Swiss didn't have brotherly love, didn't have 500 years of democracy and peace, and didn't invent the cuckoo clock.

Its a great example of propaganda though. Get enough people to subscribe to the meme, and anyone'll believe it.

Another such meme is the whole "the nazi's gave us the autobahns". They had a number of them built...sure, but they didn't invent them, they didn't come up with the plans they implemented, and its not like the work hasn't been continued since then. But hey...lets not let facts get in the way of good ranting.

Perhaps but a post that is neither fact nor rant must surely be getting in the way?

Jigsaw

In broad terms the Nazis espoused the notion of corporatism, involving cooperation between unions, big business and government. The Nazi government were fiscally and economically prudent. They built an economically strong nation out of the ruins of the Treaty of Versailles and the reparations attendant thereto. Of course in terms of social policy Nazism was disgusting and they were guilty of some of the worst atrocities of all time. The Final Solution was a very black mark mark on the actions of humanity. This is the situation pretty much summed up as far as I am aware.

WhiteWashMan

Sonnenblumen wrote: »

Perhaps but a post that is neither fact nor rant must surely be getting in the way?

getting in the way of what?

i pissing contest between two people that have yet to discover the meaning of 'subjective' in their own personal dictionary?

the nazis invented, created and adapted plenty of things that have changed the world.

it really just depends if you think a) its a good thing, and b) the cost.


although, im completely at a loss as to anything palaver is trying to say. repeating the same argument over and over again in different ways doesnt really do it for me. besides, if you think they did no good, then you cant really prove a negative.

peasant

Jigsaw wrote: »

...the Nazis espoused the notion of corporatism, involving cooperation between unions, big business and government. The Nazi government were fiscally and economically prudent...

ROFL ! :D

Hitler's economic policies were systematically wrecking the German economy and were rapidly painting him into a corner were his only choices were war or a loss of power.

quoted from:
http://www.papillonsartpalace.com/nazi.htm


also read:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fascist_economy#Political_economy_of_Nazi_Germany

0ubliette

Good or bad...you cant deny they made some cracking uniforms.

peasant

0ubliette wrote: »

Good or bad...you cant deny they made some cracking uniforms.

Don't forget the torchlight parades!

speaking of torches:

The modern torch relay was introduced by Carl Diem, president of the Organisation Committee for the Berlin Games of 1936, as part of an effort to turn the games into a glorification of the Third Reich.[1] Despite its origin, the torch ceremony is still practiced as of 2006.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Olympic_Flame

the_syco

bonkey wrote: »

Another such meme is the whole "the nazi's gave us the autobahns". They had a number of them built...sure, but they didn't invent them

No, the romans invented them.

=-=

The Germans during that era created some magnificent inventions, as one does when you get a f**k load of cash thrown at you to build stuff. But only if you weren't a Jew (see Einstein). The Nazi's are meant to have done barbaric things, some which benefited mankind, but all of which was probably tested on the humans first (Jews, Prosatants, Catholics, Gypsy's...).

See, I mention "German people", and "Nazi's" as two separate types of people...

=-=

Oh, and winners write the history. They had similiar laws to what the Americans have now, in the case that they lock up anyone they dislike, and bomb everyone else, as well as producing vast amounts of weapons, whilst telling its people that they will be attacked, unless they arm themselves to the teeth.

MooseJam

they really knew how to hold a rally, no one could compare, very impressive stuff

AOR

I'm too busy logging in BossArky to be considering trivial issues such as these.

Tar.Aldarion

Well, they did have some lovely unifornms and hot females.

Acid_Violet

SimpleSam06 wrote: »

I think you might be confusing "good" with "efficient" or "creative", and even then only in certain ways. The Nazis were like the Russians; give a Russian man a job designing a shoe, he'll come back with a shoe box. Give a Russian a job designing something to kill Germans, he turns into Thomas Edison.

However, there was nothing good about the Nazis.

No, just no........

My main reason for arguing against the idea that 'there was nothing good about the Nazi's' is because generalisations and superlatives tend to be hideously wrong. I'm not for one second saying Nazi's were mainly good, and by good I mean doing what is right (or more appropriately what I deem to be right.) Let me give you a few examples of these;

Good; protecting animal rights, protecting the environment.

Bad; killing Jews, homosexuals, mentally and physically handicapped people and Roma gypsies.

More importantly, if you look into every little detail of anything, examine every aspect of it you'll see that there's good and bad to it. The Nazi's were mainly bad, but to assume they were all bad is a very uneven handed approach to take.

peasant

Acid_Violet wrote: »

More importantly, if you look into every little detail of anything, examine every aspect of it you'll see that there's good and bad to it. The Nazi's were mainly bad, but to assume they were all bad is a very uneven handed approach to take.

But isn't it a question of weightedness?

When a political movement like the NSDAP, whos declared aim it was to erradicate a whole people from the face of the earth, to bring its neighbouring countries into slavery, to kill all "undesirables" of its own nation and to kill all mentally handicapped people ...when such a political movement then goes ahead and creates a nature reserve ...well, doesn't that just shrink into insignificance?

More importantly, by giving said nature reserve any weight at all in the reflection afterwards, are you not belittling the innocent victims of their crimes?

(Also keep in mind, that said nature reserve wasn't created just because they thought it was good idea or because they really liked nature so much, but also because it fitted into their propaganda and furthered their goals by increasing the wellbeing of their future soldiers.)

And lastly:

The Nazis came into and held onto power, because people always thought ...sure, they couldn't be all bad.
But the Nazis understood perfectly how to spin their propaganda, how to perform token 'good deeds' to keep that belief alive, all the wile pursuing their sinister goals in the background.

In my opinion, this history teaches us ...should teach us ...that looking for the small 'good' in a person or movement while facing a rather significant and obvious malice emmanating from those people / movements is a waste of time and energy at best and most likey an attempt at self deceipt and an excuse for inaction and lack of civil courage against that malice.




If there is any 'good' in the Nazis at all then it is this:

Through the true scale and horror of their deeds they have shown the whole world once and for all of what atrocities the human spirit is capable and how dangerous it is to remain a naiive and blue-eyed beliver in "the good in all people" ... because it is exactly that naiivety that made their rise to power possible in the first place.

MooseJam

yeah that and the volkswagon

peasant

MooseJam wrote: »

yeah that and the volkswagon

Have you understood nothing?

Didn't you learn anything?

Its' VolkswagEn, you ************** *****



:D:D

MooseJam

so it is , every days a schoolday

They were bad guys that occasionaly were good.

Sonnenblumen

peasant wrote: »

In my opinion, this history teaches us ...should teach us ...that looking for the small 'good' in a person or movement while facing a rather significant and obvious malice emmanating from those people / movements is a waste of time and energy at best and most likey an attempt at self deceipt and an excuse for inaction and lack of civil courage against that malice.
QUOTE]


Peasant - you hardly suggesting that moral courage get in the way of christian moral, even the Nazi's cherished Christianity.

BTW, I understood from the Forum Mod that you were asked/told not to make any more contributions to this thread or face a ban.

You're constant harping on about the negativities is off topic. You repeat your dislike or whatever, but its not the discussion.

Maybe a ban will cool you down?

palaver

Sonnenblumen wrote: »

Peasant - you hardly suggesting that moral courage get in the way of christian moral, even the Nazi's cherished Christianity.

BTW, I understood from the Forum Mod that you were asked/told not to make any more contributions to this thread or face a ban.

You're constant harping on about the negativities is off topic. You repeat your dislike or whatever, but its not the discussion.

Maybe a ban will cool you down?

I'm probably risking a permanent ban now. But so be it. At least I've learned from history not to keep my mouth shut (or in this case my fingers off the keyboard). I actually decided not to contribute to this thread anyway because I consider it as pointless regarding the unbelievable arguments I read here.

Anyway, the above post really angers me. This thread is about the Nazis, good or bad. Now Sonnenblumen has the opinion that to see the 'negativities' in Nazicm is off topic and doesn't belong to the discussion. What I read though is that Sonnenblumen doesn't wish to have anyone on boards who is against the Nazis. Whoever sees anything evil in them should be banned.

Now that's a very consequent thought considering that Sonnenblumen apparantly wishes to see the good in the Nazis and get rid of all those who don't. The Nazis did the same by the way. Who was against them was 'banned' - though with a more deadly outcome.

Sonnenblumen, did you ever hear about the concept of democracy?
I'm tempted to make the educated guess that you did not.

marcsignal

we're already talking about this in germany a few days now

http://www.toytowngermany.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=79738&st=0

Sir Digby Chicken Caesar

Now Sonnenblumen has the opinion that to see the 'negativities' in Nazicm is off topic and doesn't belong to the discussion

no... it's you that is saying that to see any positive results is 'off topic' and doesn't belong in the discussion, which should consist of a crowd of baying idiots screaming about how evil they were.

marcsignal

An Citeog wrote: »

It's a fact that the autobahn construction, carried out by the Nazis, was a good thing. :

The Autobahn was actually planned during the Weimar Republic, the Nazis simply carried out the work.

marcsignal

mike65 wrote: »

Now the cracks have appeared its quite possible that the 3rd Reich will actually get a slightly better press than it should. Hopefully balance will be achieved and ordinary Germans will be able to talk about 33-45 in a 'normal' fashion.
Mike.

Bravo Mike65 :cool:

I like to wear black clothes, but still get funny looks on the S-Bahn

marcsignal

Hobbes wrote: »

Nazis actually developed procedures on how to combat hypothermia (like sharing body heat). They did this by killing loads of Jewish people in experiments. When I first read about it, it was pretty chilling stuff. But the solutions found is still in use today.

Correct Hobbes, you're refering to 'The Dachau Paper' Much of which is the basis of Aviation Medicine Practice today. (In terms of Cold Water Experiments) Lifting downed Aircrew from the sea in a Horizontal position so as to avoid heart failure, but in Nazi Germany they used half starved prisoners of KZ Dachau (Down the road from my gaf) and dumped them in big pools of freezing water.

Good science or bad science ??

The man responsible http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hubertus_Strughold was instrumental in the American Space Programme.

humanji

peasant wrote: »

If there is any 'good' in the Nazis at all then it is this:

Through the true scale and horror of their deeds they have shown the whole world once and for all of what atrocities the human spirit is capable and how dangerous it is to remain a naiive and blue-eyed beliver in "the good in all people" ... because it is exactly that naiivety that made their rise to power possible in the first place.

Ironically, it was that kind of tarring people with the same brush, that got all the German people hating Jews in the first place.

Karoma

peasant banned. sonnenbum: infraction. End of this discussion and back the original. Thank you, Herr K.

marcsignal

humanji wrote: »

Ironically, it was that kind of tarring people with the same brush, that got all the German people hating Jews in the first place.

sweet humanji, I only got here (dachau) a month ago, and the first guy who'd give me a bit of work (not having great spoken German) was a Jew...irony or what ??

Sonnenblumen

palaver wrote: »

I'm probably risking a permanent ban now. But so be it. At least I've learned from history not to keep my mouth shut (or in this case my fingers off the keyboard). I actually decided not to contribute to this thread anyway because I consider it as pointless regarding the unbelievable arguments I read here.

Anyway, the above post really angers me. This thread is about the Nazis, good or bad. Now Sonnenblumen has the opinion that to see the 'negativities' in Nazicm is off topic and doesn't belong to the discussion. What I read though is that Sonnenblumen doesn't wish to have anyone on boards who is against the Nazis. Whoever sees anything evil in them should be banned.

Now that's a very consequent thought considering that Sonnenblumen apparantly wishes to see the good in the Nazis and get rid of all those who don't. The Nazis did the same by the way. Who was against them was 'banned' - though with a more deadly outcome.

Sonnenblumen, did you ever hear about the concept of democracy?
I'm tempted to make the educated guess that you did not.

Palaver your analysis of my posts is miserably incorrect. I've repeatedly said from the outset that the OP post was to identify any good within Nazism and not to chronicle the nazi war crimes etc. The latter is undisputed and I've said so also. But rather than participating in an exchange to identify possible positives some you included are persistent to confine debate to the negatives, which IMO was not the OP's intention.

I am sufficiently educated to distinguish between objectivity and subjectivity, and I fail to see the relevance of democracy. You're either on topic or off, surely that's simple enough to comprehend.

Retract or else.....

Sonnenblumen

Karoma wrote: »

peasant banned. sonnenbum: infraction. End of this discussion and back the original. Thank you, Herr K.

Karoma,

too difficult to spell the name correctly. Herr Polo?

nesf

Sonnenblumen wrote: »

I am sufficiently educated to distinguish between objectivity and subjectivity, and I fail to see the relevance of democracy. You're either on topic or off, surely that's simple enough to comprehend.

You're not in a position to say what is and what is not off-topic. Plus, it's a cheap debating ploy.

palaver

Sonnenblumen wrote: »

Retract or else.....

What else? Spell it out please.

Sonnenblumen

nesf wrote: »

You're not in a position to say what is and what is not off-topic. Plus, it's a cheap debating ploy.

Of course I'm in position, but I tell you what, you now have the floor to remind everyone what it is that is on-topic?

Cheap isn't that the Dutch-owned Cork brew alternative to Guinness?:eek:

Giblet

Sonnenblumen wrote: »

Retract or else.....

Or else what?

TerrorFirmer

Most of the 'useful' things the Germans invented during the war were as a result of war necessity, not an inherent desire to improve the world. So I hardly think they constitute as good in that regard. Sending men to the moon was not what Hitler had in mind during the rocket programme, so it's hardly appropriate to misguidedly suggest that being the forerunners of the space race is a credit to the Nazi regime.

They gave us the first Jet Fighter, wire guided missiles, assault rifles....basically everything that evolved into the war weapons that are still in use today, and still killing a lot of people.

Of course they had their 'good' side, very few governments can remain in power while the entire population is alienated. But the bad far outweighs the good and that's how it will always be. No matter what you look at, everything will have it's good side. Hardened criminals. Murderers. Rapists. To somebody, they have or at least had a recognisable good side.

I don't see either how the lower crime rate is seen as a generally positive attribute, considering that during the regime the death penalty was extended to somewhere about 50 charges, the police governed largely by means of terror and the slightest infraction against the regimes ideals resulted in imprisonment and possibly death, to which even children/teenagers were not immune.

palaver

HavoK wrote: »

Most of the 'useful' things the Germans invented during the war were as a result of war necessity, not an inherent desire to improve the world. So I hardly think they constitute as good in that regard. Sending men to the moon was not what Hitler had in mind during the rocket programme, so it's hardly appropriate to misguidedly suggest that being the forerunners of the space race is a credit to the Nazi regime.

They gave us the first Jet Fighter, wire guided missiles, assault rifles....basically everything that evolved into the war weapons that are still in use today, and still killing a lot of people.

Of course they had their 'good' side, very few governments can remain in power while the entire population is alienated. But the bad far outweighs the good and that's how it will always be. No matter what you look at, everything will have it's good side. Hardened criminals. Murderers. Rapists. To somebody, they have or at least had a recognisable good side.

I don't see either how the lower crime rate is seen as a generally positive attribute, considering that during the regime the death penalty was extended to somewhere about 50 charges, the police governed largely by means of terror and the slightest infraction against the regimes ideals resulted in imprisonment and possibly death, to which even children/teenagers were not immune.

HavoC, this was the most sensible post so far re the 'good' side, at least to explain why the majority of the people in Germany saw the 'good' side - as long as they weren't opposed to the regime, not Jewish, gay, Gypsies or whatnot. The so-called ordinary people only saw law and order, food on the table and a roof over their heads. That's human nature - and reminds me of the so-called soupers in Ireland at a time when they betrayed their heritage and religion just to avoid starving. But it doesn't make the system as such 'good'.

On a personal level:
My German-Lithuanian granny was a full blown Nazi (until she died) for just the above mentioned reasons. My German-Jewish grandad from the other side of the family 'disappeared' in the 1930ies. His son, my father, was secretely reared a Catholic in occupied Poland to disguise his heritage and hated Catholizism ever since. My parents were damaged with that inheritance and have been refugees until they died at a young age. I'm still running away in the third generation and ended up in Ireland - so far. Now deal with it .

My ex-mother-in-law used to live near a concentration camp (Buchenwald) in the 1940ies. She claimed she never knew anything. It only smelled strange occasionally, she said, but she enjoyed the dances in her village. The concentration camp wardens were so dashing ... Pure ignorance and naivety, and a blesssing that she is my ex-m-i-l.

Nobody outside of Germany can ever imagine how heavy this inheritance bears on the shoulders of even the third or fourth generation. It's a whole culture, a peoples confidence destroyed. It's the inferiority complex the Irish might have felt (and still might feel) during the British colonisation. It still makes me hate everything Nazi.

Why do you think that Germany rejoiced during the World Cup 2006? Because suddenly Germany presented herself as a joyful and proud country. Until now this event is still an amazement in Germany, a precious gem of regaining confidence and, well, joy of life.

However, the original question in this thread was, if Nazism is according to the quoted poll on the up in Germany. There is indeed a tendency to glorify a time when the world was simple and not as globalized and complex as nowadays. But I've read the original poll (not available as a link I'm afraid, but in the line of my work I have access) and it says that the majority who agree are the over sixty ones, those who have the most trouble to adapt to our complex world and look for simple answers. And another majority is the very young ones, who don't have a clou, are unemployed and under-educated. The generation in between were, the more educated anyway, were strictly opposed to anything 'good' under the Nazi-regime.

But generally it says that the questions of the poll were more complex than 'good' or 'bad'. Mind, the poll was commissioned by a more tabloid magazine, which published just the suitable results, or their interpretation.

I believe - to answer the original question - that the Germans are far too aware of the dangers of Nazism to fall for it ever again. Well, I hope so.
On the other hand I fear that other nations, who maybe have issues with a new and complex world, might want to see the 'good' in a regime which promised straightforward politics and peace beside the fireplace, no matter what. And I'm afraid, if the posts on bards.ie are anything to go for, that Ireland might be one of them.

the_syco

palaver wrote: »

I believe - to answer the original question - that the Germans are far too aware of the dangers of Nazism to fall for it ever again. Well, I hope so.

/me looks at how they control all of the EU...

WhiteWashMan

Sonnenblumen wrote: »

Of course I'm in position, but I tell you what, you now have the floor to remind everyone what it is that is on-topic?

the rules of AH are there for all to see.

you have decided what is off topic here, so why dont you tell the rest of us.

youre making up rules to suit yourself. its an open debate. youre the one thats trying to close it off in an effort to prove something.

Sonnenblumen wrote: »

Retract or else.....

id also be interested to know what else.

you wont remain in the debate is about as much power as you have here.
dont make threats.

or else....

palaver wrote:

This thread is about the Nazis, good or bad.

actually, reading the top of the page, the topic is about what good the nazis did.

palaver wrote:

. What I read though is that Sonnenblumen doesn't wish to have anyone on boards who is against the Nazis.

i dont see that. perhaps you need to read what is written, instead of what you think is written?

palaver wrote:

Now that's a very consequent thought considering that Sonnenblumen apparantly wishes to see the good in the Nazis and get rid of all those who don't. The Nazis did the same by the way. Who was against them was 'banned' - though with a more deadly outcome.

easy tiger.

hitler was a vegetarian. are you suggesting that sonnenblumen is also campaigning to get anyone who doesnt posts on the vegetarian forum banned as well?

perhaps he just doesnt like your tactic of using evidence free negatives to try and prove a point.
which as i stated before, cannot be done. you cant prove a negative.

palaver wrote:

Sonnenblumen, did you ever hear about the concept of democracy?
I'm tempted to make the educated guess that you did not.

ah, the old attack the poster at the end of the post tactic. dude, ive done it for years. either make it humourous or dont do it at all. it doesnt add to your 'argument'.

palaver wrote:

I believe - to answer the original question - that the Germans are far too aware of the dangers of Nazism to fall for it ever again.

the question is not whether people will follow nazism again.

the question is whether or not the nazis did any good. you havent answered it yet.


for what its worth, the nazis were around a long time before WWII, or even WWI.they may have had a different name, but they were still nazis.

i'll give you one good thing the nazis did.

Der Ring des Nibelungen by Wagner.
Im sure everyone knows the ride of the valkyrie, the tune that plays in the chopper scene from apocalyse now.

Often thought of one of the influences for hitlers direction and basis for the belief in an 'aryian' race. all of whcih hitler took and used.

but a masterful piece of work, which was not created for war, or as a weapon, but for the sheer joy of music.

so, for me, the nazis did do at least one good thing....

Sonnenblumen

WhiteWashMan wrote: »

the rules of AH are there for all to see.

you have decided what is off topic here, so why dont you tell the rest of us.

youre making up rules to suit yourself. its an open debate. youre the one thats trying to close it off in an effort to prove something.


id also be interested to know what else.

you wont remain in the debate is about as much power as you have here.
dont make threats.

....

All I'm trying to do is steer the discussion to the topic, IE DID THE NAZIS DO ANY GOOD!!!!! Everyone knows all the bad stuff and there is nobody trying to minimise or trivialise the infamous horror caused by NAZISM. A mantle which every German generation must and will carry.

Palaver has implied I'm a Nazi, not knowing Palaver and it not knowing me is not on that Palaver implies I am a Nazi or even remotely a Nazi sympathiser. I refute this and asked that Palaver retract or ELSE I will report. The forum mod has clearly stated calling someone a Nazi will result in a ban. I will report Palaver unless he/she retracts the earlier remarks.

Anyways, Palaver should realise that you do have to put your hand in the fire to know it gets burnt. If Palaver believes there was a general level of ignorance about KZs (Concentration/Work Camps) amongst local populace well that is just downright stupid and it has be proven umpteen times to be false. To deny Nazis did nothing right is one thing, but to dismiss industrialised death camps on one's own doorstep "as we didn't know" is comlete crap. For this reason alone, the Germans should always be reminded of WWII and all that was wrong with it. The Germans will never accept that many of them were complicit and the world will never let them forget their festering guilt.

Straying off topic here but again Palaver brought it into the debate, it is unbelieveably arrogant that a relatively recent German imigrant should lecture us on any potential risk of reversionary rightwing radicalism. Why doesn't Palaver return to Germany and sort out the Recht Extremisten (Neo Nazis) and let the Irish people worry/sort out our own political destiny/troubles.

I'm sorry but no German will tell me what's good or bad politic.

Acid_Violet

peasant wrote: »

But isn't it a question of weightedness?

When a political movement like the NSDAP, whos declared aim it was to erradicate a whole people from the face of the earth, to bring its neighbouring countries into slavery, to kill all "undesirables" of its own nation and to kill all mentally handicapped people ...when such a political movement then goes ahead and creates a nature reserve ...well, doesn't that just shrink into insignificance?

Yes. That's truly awful. But I still disagree. Some good is in everything and some bad in everything. Some good in the nature reserve. To be truly even-handed and objective you say 'predominantly awful, a little bit of good'. Therefore........

More importantly, by giving said nature reserve any weight at all in the reflection afterwards, are you not belittling the innocent victims of their crimes?

No, you're being completely objective; not necessarily saying that's there's much significance in the nature reserve because in comparison to all the evil they did it's insignificant, but saying that it was good still.

Couldn't you say the same of other regimes?

(Also keep in mind, that said nature reserve wasn't created just because they thought it was good idea or because they really liked nature so much, but also because it fitted into their propaganda and furthered their goals by increasing the wellbeing of their future soldiers.)

*bangs head against wall*
READ PREVIOUS POSTS PLAYEEZE!

And lastly:

The Nazis came into and held onto power, because people always thought ...sure, they couldn't be all bad.
But the Nazis understood perfectly how to spin their propaganda, how to perform token 'good deeds' to keep that belief alive, all the wile pursuing their sinister goals in the background.

In my opinion, this history teaches us ...should teach us ...that looking for the small 'good' in a person or movement while facing a rather significant and obvious malice emmanating from those people / movements is a waste of time and energy at best and most likey an attempt at self deceipt and an excuse for inaction and lack of civil courage against that malice.




If there is any 'good' in the Nazis at all then it is this:

Through the true scale and horror of their deeds they have shown the whole world once and for all of what atrocities the human spirit is capable and how dangerous it is to remain a naiive and blue-eyed beliver in "the good in all people" ... because it is exactly that naiivety that made their rise to power possible in the first place.

Yes yes, very true.

However I'm not saying that's there's much good to them or anything, just that some of what they did was good! I'm not saying that I'd vote them into power, and I haven't said anything to construe that I would consider what they did to warrant voting them into power.

TerrorFirmer

Stalin's Russia was just as bad, except the obvious difference being that rather then persecuting an identifiable ethic/racial/religious group it was their own people. Look at the Khmer Rogue regime. Millions died under that as well. In fact there are numerous other examples in which millions of people suffered under barbaric regimes but most of them are actually relatively unknown to the average person....whereas even people who know literally nothing about the Nazi's, Hitler or the Holocaust itself know that the Nazi's were 'the most evil political party ever to grace the planet'. It's all circumstance, and people say that the best thing about the regime is that it taught the world a lesson in that it could never happen again. Well it has happened since. But it's just not seen in the same light. Why? Probably because it happens in third world countries that to be brutally honest, lie outside our sphere of interest and in some cases, care. In the same way to most people the news that a poor man was murdered in Dublin would invoke far more sympathetic response then the 'x killed in car bomb' we've become conditioned to.

Anyway, the Nazi's offered the nation something it could have never dreamed of even a mere decade before the war - the most powerful nation in Europe and the most powerful armed forces in the world. What was there not to be proud of for most Germans? The country boomed. That it was mostly short term due to rearmament and reliant on foreign credit is really insignificant - it's all about what it presented to the people, at the given time. There were various other social aspects to the party as well, but I'm just going general here. Crime dropped. The Nazi's had a harsh way of dealing with opposition military or domestic but for the average German, life was good. Hitler probably reached the height of his popularity after the fall of Poland or possibly France. So it was not a case of opposition drying up at the onset of war or people believing that the state should blank point avoid war.

It's not hard to see why certain people believe that the Nazi's had a good side. Not that they were good - people seem to sometimes equate that thinking they had merits means unconditional support - but that they had some positive aspects.

marcsignal

HavoK wrote: »

Stalin's Russia was just as bad, except the obvious difference being that rather then persecuting an identifiable ethic/racial/religious group it was their own people.

Stalin did persecute racial groups too, The Kalmucks and the Crimean Tartars in Southern Russia spring to mind.

r3nu4l wrote: »

I know Germans in their 30's who do feel guilty about what their nation did. Perhaps this is because many of them grew up in the shadow of their parents guilt?

Germans between the ages of 50 and 35 (Approx) have a hard time dealing with the period because they grew up in the ‘Don’t mention the War’ period in Germany. Nothing was thought to them in school about the period, and consequently it all came as an enormous shock to them when they finally did learn the facts, mostly after the reunificaion.

Orange69 wrote: »

I think anyone more intelligent than a tennis ball can understands the rise of Nazism was a hugely complex and multi faceted phenomenon.. Plenty of nazis were probably good people but got mixed up in a machine bigger than themselves and probably genuinely believed what they were doing was right. And i bet many more were disgusted by the situation but felt powerless to stop it..

True. Peoples poor standard of education at the time should also be considered, combined with the intensive use of the Media by Goebells. By the time it all started going pear shaped in terms of the ‘Wansee Conferene’ it was far too late for any individual to resist.
Another common misconception was the ‘Gestapo Agent on every corner’ idea, this was completely untrue. A city the size of Limerick would have had only about 4 to 6 Agents operating. Most people were brought to the attention of the Gestapo, by being denounced by their friends, neighbours, and sometimes even their siblings.

Acid_Violet wrote: »

Of course the Nazi's had their good side. The allies also had their badside. All is not as simple as a thick black line between good and evil.

True, the British carried out biological warfare experiments on their own troops in ‘Portland Down’ during the war. Many of who's families are still seeking compensation today(because the victims are either already dead or suffering terrible after effects), but are being stonewalled by the M.O.D and the British Govt. There was also a plan to drop an Anthrax Bomb on Germany, sanctioned by Churchill.

ejmaztec wrote: »

There must be more non-German Nazis in Europe, these days, than German ones. While everyone is still pointing the finger at the Germans, these other factions will sneak up and bite everyone's ar*e. The movement seems to be quite popular in the former Soviet satellite states.

There are even Neo Nazi Skinheads in Isreal today, believe it or not, mostly Russian Immigrants.

DonJose wrote: »

"aimed at deporting foreigners - residents without Swiss citizenship - who commit crimes"
I would support that here in Ireland. If a foreigner arrives in a country he/she should respect the laws and citizens of that country................... if I went around raping/robbing/selling drugs I'd expect to be deported after finishing a prison sentence.

So would I

Hobbes wrote: »

While the Nazis were immoral and evil, what amazes me about the present day is how easily people can gloss over what went on when it suits them.

I think it’s more important to concentrate on objecting to similar evils being perpetrated in the world today, wthout forgetting, or excusing, what happened to people who are long dead.

professore wrote: »

... and if WWI had been ended on more fair terms for the Germans then maybe Hitler would never have come to power in the first place.

True, during the French occupation of The Ruhr, for example, the French deliberately posted black Algerian Colonial troops in the region, knowing it would further humiliate the Germans. This was bound to focus people's attention on the Race issue later.

peasant wrote: »

Their whole "economic success" was based on money lent to them by German industrialists on the promise that they would get their share of conquered territories and cheap labour once the East was conquered ...which they did.

Yes, Iraq, Oil and Haliburton spring to mind.

nesf wrote: »

Actually the Nazis had a complex system of racial profiling. To say they ignored the Asians does them a disservice.

Not quite, there was much discussion in high Nazi circles regarding the pros and cons about their alliance with the Japanese, with Hitler himself expressing concern about the rise of ‘The Yellow Race’ in the east.

palaver wrote: »

Wernher von Braun worked first on moon rockets but was "forced" to work on rockets to carry bombs to London. In his factory in Peenemuende concentration camp prisoners were forced to work.

Debatable...”Werhner Von Braun” was an SS Officer http://www.reformation.org/wernher-von-braun.html So I’d hazard a guess they didn’t have to twist his arm.

Jigsaw wrote: »

In broad terms the Nazis espoused the notion of corporatism, involving cooperation between unions, big business and government.

Yes, they did this by banning unions, and killing trade union leaders in KZ Dachau.

0ubliette wrote: »

Good or bad...you cant deny they made some cracking uniforms.

Yes, The SS ones were designed by Hugo Boss....i wonder if this makes anyone wearing a ‘BOSS ‘ T-shirt, a closet Nazi ??

magpie

What did the Romans ever do for us?

TerrorFirmer

magpie wrote: »

What did the Romans ever do for us?

gave inspiration to such classics as Caligua and it's even smuttier sequel Caligula 2

ScumLord

:eek: Is there really a caligula two?

TerrorFirmer

Yes sir, there is. And the smut aside, which is far more frequent then in the first, there is a very memorable scene in which a man is skewered through his ass. It also involves a horse in the midst of an orgy. Very, very disturbing. Unless I'm mixing up both films but I'm quite sure these scenes in his the second movie.