2007 F1 season not over yet more contraversy looming??

endplate

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/63547

BMW Sauber and Williams are under investigation of the Brazilian Grand Prix race stewards, autosport.com has learned.

Representatives of both teams were summoned to the stewards' office after their cars failed post-race inspection at Brazil.

The problem is believed to be in the tempature of the fuel samples taken from the cars of Williams's Nico Rosberg and BMW Sauber's Robert Kubica and Nick Heidfeld.

The trio finished the race in fourth, fifth and sixth respectively



It's funny how it seems to effect the drivers that prevented Lewis from winning the championship and I've never heard of fuel temps been an issue before

Doctor J

I can't see them taking driver points away, probably just dock the constructor points so Kimi stays champ, I reckon.

steviec

In fairness, the track temperatures hit record heights during that race so I guess it's plausable that fuel temps could have been higher than normal.

And I can't imagine the FIA wanting to do this on purpose to 'fix' things - this controversy is the last thing F1 needs right now. A win for Kimi is a win for the sport and hopefully common sense will prevail. I can't see anything coming from this other than maybe a fine or constructors points deduction for Williams and BMW.

the magician

I hope they don't take points from them Probably take constructors points alright.. Would be really unfair and terrible for the sport. Especially as it's been one of the best seasons in a long time.

Although I kinda liked the idea of Hamilton winning.Thought that a rookie winning the championship made for a great story.

But Kimi definitely deserves the title and it would be him getting punished more than anyone else.

Ghost Train

That would suck for kimi... if the championship was taken from him

Can imagine that there's also be a lot of suspicious eyes on the fia if the championship result is reversed because of this

Will be interesting to hear more details about this and see what happens

seems there was a similar situation in 1995 brazilian grand prix.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1995_Brazilian_Grand_Prix

IT Loser

I think this is the latest scam to add, if you pardon the pun, fuel to the fire. Can't see Raikkonen losing his title because of this, but its a sweetner to allow the likes of Sky and the BBC to talk ****e for weeks about what might have been, this despite the fact that:-

1. Hamiltons own personal behaviour has raised questions during the year, particularly the role he played in effectively relegating Alonso to 10th on the grid in one particular race.

2. The fact that both Alonso and Hamilton were in receipt, unwittingly or not, of stolen information. What a shock Ferrari closed the gap so stunningly towards the end of the season AFTER the spy shock. If both McClarens kept their Drivers Points, then why would Sauber/Williams lose any now??

3. Hamilton himself came in for scrutiny with his shennigans over the two pairs of wet tyres during the practice.

In short, Hamilton is the pot and Williams/Sauber a kettle. He's stuck in a greenhouse with a stone in his mitt.


But don't tell Sky or the BBC or their minions!!!:rolleyes::rolleyes:

the magician

IT Loser wrote: »

In short, Hamilton is the pot and Williams/Sauber a kettle. He's stuck in a greenhouse with a stone in his mitt.

As far as i've seen so far Hamilton has had nothing to say about this. This is all coming from the FIA , judging by Hamilton's post race comments he's taken his defeat well and is looking at the fact that 2nd in your rookie year is still an awesome achievement. Can't see him wanting to win the championship this way.

IT Loser

the magician wrote: »

As far as i've seen so far Hamilton has had nothing to say about this. This is all coming from the FIA , judging by Hamilton's post race comments he's taken his defeat well and is looking at the fact that 2nd in your rookie year is still an awesome achievement. Can't see him wanting to win the championship this way.

Likkle Lewey will take anything he can get. When I say Lewis is talking, I mean his minions. The BBC, Sky, all desperate to play it up. Lewis didn't win anything anyways, so he would do well to pipe down. He's played the innocent all year.

Being honest, I don't think Hamilton will ever win it now. Just a feeling I have.

Raikkonen started this thing better and finished it better. With better reliability, he could have had it in the bag from way back.

the magician

IT Loser wrote: »

Being honest, I don't think Hamilton will ever win it now. Just a feeling I have.

This is also true. I had a feeling raikonnen was gonna do it . He had nothing to lose but has been superb for the last few races, I thought Alonso didn't seem very hungry this year. I know he's had his problems with the team, but you'd think he'd suck it up , go for the championship, and head back to Renault with 2 fingers up to McLaren.(or wherever he goes now)



Have to say i've had this feeling myself alright. His career could go the way of Button's. Next years McLaren could be a dog for all we know. Wouldn't be unheard of for McLaren to drop the ball.

IT Loser wrote: »

Raikkonen started this thing better and finished it better.

IT Loser wrote: »

With better reliability, he could have had it in the bag from way back.

That always seems to be Raikonnen's problem im glad it came right for him this year.

DannyBuoy

Sky are reporting that the reason Lewis didn't win the championship is the 3 ahead of him weren't penalised. (here)
I would have said it was because of the better Ferrari start, the fact that the car died during the race or the fact that he made a bags of the pit stop in China. Lewis is some driver, no doubt about it but this wasn't his year, plenty time left.

endplate

Well the decision has been made the results stand Kimi is champion. It seems that fuel taken from the fuel rigs were 12-14 degrees below ambient. This would increase density effectivily giving the cars slightly more efficient fuel. But BMW and Williams will be unpunished cos the stewards got their ambient temp from the wrong source i.e not the FOM screen. McLaren are appealing the decision on the groungs of why an irregularity and no punishment. This could go on and on for a few weeks. But if it does go against BWM and Williams they will more than likely lose constructors points and not the drivers points.

Ghost Train

Seems like a screw up by the stewards. If rules were broken surely there should be some punishment, but instead they seems to be saying they are now unclear what the actual ambient temperature was?
statement from stewards
http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/63569

Surely these tests happen during other races, and theres a clear precedure so things are black and white. I'd hate to see Kimi loose out like this now, but equally if rules were broken and advantage gained by the teams racing McLaren, I'd rather see a firm decision than the stewards bottling it.

If the temp on the monitors was with in the 10 degree range for the teams, then fair enough, but don't want the decision made on "presumptions"

Sabre0001

If the teams are found guilty then they may be docked their points but they surely can't just give them to Hamilton...

(Unless the head brass blatently want Hamilton to win!)

oneofakind32

Has anyone else compleatly lost faith in Mclaren and Ron Dennis. They had the best car with the best drivers and came away from the season with nothing, absolutly nothing! Surly some heads must roll at Mclaren?

sbEdge

Alonso and Hamilton should have had their points deducted anyway, the FIA decided that McLaren gained an advantage from having Ferrari documents, therefore their drivers also gained an advantage.

Catcher86

Everyone seems to be on the same page here.
Can't see them taking it out Kimi because they know it could be a killer blow for F1. They are in the process of attracting fans and viewers not losing them.
Also I doubt Lewis would want to win it like that.
McClaren have launched an appeal though.

p.s They can't dock BMW and Williams drivers points after what they did earlier in the season. Surely they can only dock constructors points.
It can't be proved so far that the McClaren car gained any advantage from those documents. But they were told how ferrari were using their tyres and getting the best out of them, its in alonso's emails. So they gained an advantage there, but they were'nt deducted drivers points.

Manic Moran

The concept of docking Constructor's points and not Driver's points is pretty rare. Usually it's both, and part of the reason the drivers were not penalised was because of a promise of immunity by the FIA for any information they had. This does not apply in this case. However, there is the option of penalising the drivers and teams all points gained without excluding them from the race itself, meaning that Lewis would still not push forward.

hey had the best car with the best drivers and came away from the season with nothing, absolutly nothing

I dispute that. They may have had the best car, but I think Kimi was the better driver. Not only as far as driving skills go (Of course, this is relative, as Lewis and Alonso are no slouches there either), but also in the mental attributes. Whilst L & A managed to allow themselves to get sucked into internecine warfare, at no time even when Massa was still in the hunt did Ferrari's drivers allow each other to get on their nerves. Finally, team managers not only have to manage their engineers, designers, mechanics and whatnot, but they must also manage their drivers. In this, the team failed. So whose head should roll? The drivers, for allowing themselves to be sucked into an un-necessary and bitter war? The team managers for failing to mediate it? They lost the championship, that's enough of a roll.

Being honest, I don't think Hamilton will ever win it now

I wouldn't be so sure. Despite all the media hoopla about Hamilton's unprecedented rookie year, I cannot help but draw similarities with Jacques Villeneuve, who also won four races in his rookie year (1996), and lost the championship because of a mechanical glitch in his car in the last race. Yet in 1997 he was World Champion.

Give Lewis a few years. He has raw talent, but it needs the seasoning of age. He made some rookie mistakes this year, I'll be surprised if he's still making them at age 28, Raikonnen's current age. He has as good a chance as anyone else over the next couple of years.

NTM

Frank Bullitt

If the FIA change this result ill never ever watch F1 again. Surly to god they cant be so stupid to do this, it would be the final blow for F1 for sure, Lewis himself has said that he doesnt want it to change, fair play to him.

IT Loser

eolhc wrote: »

Seems like a screw up by the stewards. If rules were broken surely there should be some punishment, but instead they seems to be saying they are now unclear what the actual ambient temperature was?
statement from stewards
http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/63569

Surely these tests happen during other races, and theres a clear precedure so things are black and white. I'd hate to see Kimi loose out like this now, but equally if rules were broken and advantage gained by the teams racing McLaren, I'd rather see a firm decision than the stewards bottling it.

If the temp on the monitors was with in the 10 degree range for the teams, then fair enough, but don't want the decision made on "presumptions"

Sounds like this was all cooked up to throw the Brit media a bone, and let them perpetuate the myth that Lewie was robbed. Pathetic if you ask me.

IT Loser

sbEdge wrote: »

Alonso and Hamilton should have had their points deducted anyway, the FIA decided that McLaren gained an advantage from having Ferrari documents, therefore their drivers also gained an advantage.

100 Per Cent true...but, like I keep saying, Sky and the BBC have their ears covered!!

muckwarrior

Manic Moran wrote: »

I cannot help but draw similarities with Jacques Villeneuve, who also won four races in his rookie year (1996), and lost the championship because of a mechanical glitch in his car in the last race.

Not true. He'd have lost the championship even if he'd finished that Grand prix. Hill finished 14 points clear IIRC.

IT Loser

muckwarrior wrote: »

Not true. He'd have lost the championship even if he'd finished that Grand prix. Hill finished 14 points clear IIRC.

I'll hazard a guess the BBC wasn't screaming too loudly for a Rookie Champion that year either:D:D

IT Loser

DannyBuoy wrote: »

Sky are reporting that the reason Lewis didn't win the championship is the 3 ahead of him weren't penalised. (here)
I would have said it was because of the better Ferrari start, the fact that the car died during the race or the fact that he made a bags of the pit stop in China. Lewis is some driver, no doubt about it but this wasn't his year, plenty time left.

Sky are disgusting. They are also saying that he doesn't want to win the Championship this way. Uhhh.........if they give it to him, thats exactly what will have happened. They'll have given it to him. He never won a damn thing this season. Sky are a gutter news service to be even trying to pull this sh!t.

Catcher86

IT Loser wrote: »

100 Per Cent true...but, like I keep saying, Sky and the BBC have their ears covered!!

I think you mean ITV instead of BBC.

Manic Moran

IT Loser wrote: »

100 Per Cent true...but, like I keep saying, Sky and the BBC have their ears covered!!

Not so. The FIA made it clear that in order to find McLaren guilty, they merely had to be sure that they had information in their posession, not that they actually put it to use.

NTM

SouperComputer

endplate wrote:

Well the decision has been made the results stand Kimi is champion. It seems that fuel taken from the fuel rigs were 12-14 degrees below ambient.

This seems odd. Were any other samples taken at ambient temp? The flashpoint\evaporation temp of the fuel is very low, so I see no reason why the temperature would not be below ambient, especially in hot conditions.

Id be interested to see what additive they found in the fuel that modified its temp properties out of spec. If the fuel is tested in a lab, and nothing is found in the fuel, or if a sample wasnt tested in a lab, then it sounds like complete BS.

That said, I haven't really read into how this all transpired.

Alun

My understanding of it, from reading a number of other sources, mainly Autosport, is that the fuel sampled from the two rigs was more than the allowed 10 degrees below ambient temperature. It's got nothing to do with additives AFAIK. I assume there's some kind of cooling going on somewhere in the rigs themselves. Cooler, i.e. denser, fuel gives more BHP and therefore an advantage.

Anyway, the argument centres around the exact definition of "ambient temperature". McLaren are saying, and it appears that this was always the understanding, that this should be the "official" ambient temperature as displayed on the FOM timing screens, although this isn't actually stated anywhere in the regulations. The track stewards though apparently decided unilaterally that the official ambient temerature was "wrong" and chose another one that rather conveniently let the two teams off.

Frank Bullitt

When are the FIA expected to announce the date for the hearing? I cant honestly expect them to change the out come of the championship, if they did then F1 would be done for.

Anyone else agree?

Ghost Train

Gintonious wrote: »

When are the FIA expected to announce the date for the hearing? I cant honestly expect them to change the out come of the championship, if they did then F1 would be done for.

Anyone else agree?

I'd say they'll want to have it quickly, maybe within two weeks... theres the prodrive hearing later this week i think.. so they'll probably announce something then

I'm in two minds about it, the first being kimi won the race on sunday, championship was decided, great for kimi whos a great driver, acceptable end to a controversial season for most people i think. it's been a long year, lets just leave things as they are.

One the other hand, as a longterm fan, if rules were clearly broken and two teams screwed up how they managed their fuel when the other teams managed not to screw up then I'd want to see an appropriate punishment. If it's clearly shown or known that some advantage was gained by the teams/drivers (even if not major), then yes, I'm happy for both teams and drivers to be disqualified and championship decision reversed in Hamilton's favour. Hamilton & Kimi should be treated equally... no matter how many years they're in the sport or what type of luck they've had this season... the fia should treat it like any other race... whether the championship is decided in eithers favour

If the FIA decide not to investigate fully and/or don't give an open and clear ruling, then for the sport I think it will be damaging long term. If the fia screwed up with it's measuring/temperature readings then fine, let them clearly explain it, if the teams screwed up punish them, if the drivers gained an unfair advantage punish them and amend the race results

real screw up by somebody, fia should do their best to resolve things fairly for everyone, especially the two drivers

heyjude

Maybe they'll fine BMW and Williams, $10,000 each like they fined the three teams at the Brazilian Grand Prix that broke the tyre rules in practice.

Ghost Train

heyjude wrote: »

Maybe they'll fine BMW and Williams, $10,000 each like they fined the three teams at the Brazilian Grand Prix that broke the tyre rules in practice.

its not really the same though, one is race situation the other is practice, one might give performance advantage the other not

if driver speeds in pit lane during practice he gets fined, if he speeds in pit-lane during the race he gets drive through

Catcher86

eolhc wrote: »

One the other hand, as a longterm fan, if rules were clearly broken and two teams screwed up how they managed their fuel when the other teams managed not to screw up then I'd want to see an appropriate punishment. If it's clearly shown or known that some advantage was gained by the teams/drivers (even if not major), then yes, I'm happy for both teams and drivers to be disqualified and championship decision reversed in Hamilton's favour. Hamilton & Kimi should be treated equally... no matter how many years they're in the sport or what type of luck they've had this season... the fia should treat it like any other race... whether the championship is decided in eithers favour

I agree with what you say here, but not with the degree of the punishment.

"If their appeal is successful, Rosberg, Kubica and Heidfeld could be stripped of their points, but as it transpires not necessarily their positions.

Under the FIA's International Sporting Code it would then be up to the stewards to decide whether the drivers who finished behind the aforementioned trio would be elevated.

There are instances in the past when drivers have lost points, but kept their race result.

The most high profile of which was in 1997 when Michael Schumacher was stripped of the title, but allowed to retain his results for the official records."

(Taken from article on Planet-F1)

heyjude

eolhc wrote: »

its not really the same though, one is race situation the other is practice, one might give performance advantage the other not

McLaren might have got an advantage in using an extra set of wet tyres in practise, if the race had been wet.

The judgement in the McLaren/Ferrari documents matter basically said that McLaren had possession of the documents(which was wrong), but it couldn't be proved that they had benefitted and the drivers had no involvement, so the team was punished through a fine and loss of constructors points.

In the Brazilian Grand Prix case, it may be shown that the teams had broken the rules(which was wrong), whether they benefitted is open to question, but the drivers had no involvement, so isn't the punishment of a fine and loss of some constructors points the most likely/suitable outcome ?

I think it would forever tarnish Hamilton's career if he was to win the championship through legal action taking place weeks after the season has ended and it might even warrant a asterisk(*) beside his name in the record books(denoting the fact that he didn't win the title on the track but several weeks later in a legal case)

Ghost Train

heyjude wrote: »

McLaren might have got an advantage in using an extra set of wet tyres in practise, if the race had been wet.

Was reported that the extra set was only used for one single installation lap, also i think the extra set used had to be returned to bridgestone, not 100% sure, but think that it means if it was a wet race, hamilton would have only had three wet sets to everyone elses four sets. If the race was wet each car would still be running on the same spec tyres and while you could say the mclaren got more running time by using two sets, theres no performance advantage like running cooler fuel is reported to give

The judgement in the McLaren/Ferrari documents matter basically said that McLaren had possession of the documents(which was wrong), but it couldn't be proved that they had benefitted and the drivers had no involvement, so the team was punished through a fine and loss of constructors points.

In the Brazilian Grand Prix case, it may be shown that the teams had broken the rules(which was wrong), whether they benefitted is open to question, but the drivers had no involvement, so isn't the punishment of a fine and loss of some constructors points the most likely/suitable outcome ?

While the driver had no involvement if the car gets a small performance boost from illegal cooler fuel, the driver is getting an advantage over the drivers he's racing against. I think the fia chose not to punish the mclaren drivers earlier in the year because the drivers had provided evidence against their team and the fia stuck by their earlier promise that they would have immunity. Maybe a mistake by the fia, but it did result in some of the evidence they needed to support their ruling against mclaren

I think it would forever tarnish Hamilton's career if he was to win the championship through legal action taking place weeks after the season has ended and it might even warrant a asterisk(*) beside his name in the record books(denoting the fact that he didn't win the title on the track but several weeks later in a legal case)

you could say the same about kimis championship, if three of the cars were running illegally ahead of hamilton in the last race then maybe hamilton was hard done by

i just think it should be a clear decision, based on what normally happens when cars run illegally. Should be no other factors like whats popular, or who is the faster driver, or who has the better car, or who had the strong end to the season. Even if race results have to be changed weeks after the result to reflect the true/fair result, by the rule book in line with how the rules have been applied in the past

Ghost Train

Catcher86 wrote: »

I agree with what you say here, but not with the degree of the punishment.

"If their appeal is successful, Rosberg, Kubica and Heidfeld could be stripped of their points, but as it transpires not necessarily their positions.

Under the FIA's International Sporting Code it would then be up to the stewards to decide whether the drivers who finished behind the aforementioned trio would be elevated.

There are instances in the past when drivers have lost points, but kept their race result.

The most high profile of which was in 1997 when Michael Schumacher was stripped of the title, but allowed to retain his results for the official records."

(Taken from article on Planet-F1)

I think 1997 was a bit different though. He was qisqualified from second, so wouldnt have got the title anyway. Revising race results for a whole season that had passed would have been messy. And the driver was being punished for one race incident at the end of the season, so shouldn't have reflected on all the race results that had gone before.

If there's fair reasoning not to revise the positions and points scored then fair enough, but I don't think the fact that it was a championship decider should come in to it or anything other than what happened during the race.

Really hope that this is all just a mix up the stewerts have made with their procedures and the teams involved are shown to be in the clear or not at fault.

heyjude

Maybe they need to consider introducing a series of mandatory penalties into the regulations/rules in order to try to eliminate all the uncertainty, so that if you break rule X then you will be demoted, relegated to back of the grid, fined etc. So that everyone would know that if you break a particular rule then you will face a certain sanction. You could also also introduce escalating penalties for repeated breaches of the rules.

The downside to this might be, that teams might look at the advantage of breaking a rule and make a calculation whether the advantage they would get, might be worth the penalty involved, but then again they might be doing this already. However, manadatory penalties wouldn't eliminate controversy caused by uncertainty about whether a rule had been broken or not, since the penalties would only apply once guilt has been established.

Lawless_Samurai

It would be pretty embarresing to win anything by default, especially if the championship has already been won

Oblomov

Max Mosley has voiced the opinon that:

A; It would be bad for the sport if Lewis hamilton had won in his first year.
B; Lewis Hamilton is not responsible for the added interest.
C; In his opinion, points would not be deducted from the drivers for the fuel infringement

So, forget the hearing, its already been decided.

kenco

Its a dead duck this one. They wont award the title to Hamilton end of. Its bad though as it is there own official inspection that has thrown this up and according to the rules they should be disq, however given the fun and games earlier in the year the bullet will be bitten and worst case the contructors points will be lost.

Its been a bad year for F1 on many levels but especially for the FIA. McLaren were caught and that is there crime. There is no doubt that other teams have information and data on other cars but how much benefit they derive from it is open to debate.

Hamiliton will go on to win championships this will not be his first. Kimi did it the hard way and has to be applauded for that and therefore deserves the championship

Manic Moran

muckwarrior wrote: »

Not true. He'd have lost the championship even if he'd finished that Grand prix. Hill finished 14 points clear IIRC.

Yes true, with a caveat. Villeneuve was still in the running when the Japanese GP started, and could have still become the first rookie to win the championship. He was dependent on Hill finishing out of the points, in a similar manner to Kimi requiring that Hamilton finish the last race with almost no points at all as well. When his oil pump gave way, it no longer mattered if Hill finished or not. The irrelevance of the failure was only available with hindsight.

NTM

endplate

JV did not finish the Jap GP race cos of an oil pump failure one of his wheels came off and he crashed into a barrier luckily a catch fence caught the runaway tyre as it was heading straight for the fans. JV had to win and Hill had to fail to finish as JV was 9 points down going into the last race

Oblomov

Oh dear more scandal... this time Renault putloining secrets or so we are led to believe...

Meeting in Paris early December to answer questios fromt the FIA....

Should be good.

Ghost Train

http://www.itv-f1.com/News_Article.aspx?PO_ID=41309

Well i'm a bit baffled by the result of the appeal... if it you even call it that since they ruled the meeting they were having invalid

So the court of appeal met, took two days, and then decided that the appeal was not valid since McLaren were not one of the involved teams that met with the brazilian stewerts.

Why do they hold an appeal in the first place if at the end of it, their just going to say we shouldn't even be here, we reject this appeal we agreed to hear at the hearing

So much for getting some clarification of what happened in Brazil with the stewerts. The FIA made a big deal of being open and transparent with the spygate mess, and now they don't want to talk about the brazil mess and use this technicality that one of the teams with the colder fuel would have had to appeal... why would a team whos not being punished appeal the decision not to punish them.

Okay so fine the FIA played by their rules regarding appeals, but all it looks like is they were afraid to admit they fecked up, or they were afraid to look a bit deeper into if the cars that got the points were in-line with the rules.

Seth Brundle

WHay are you baffled? The FIA are good at favouring Ferrari!

Ghost Train

kbannon wrote: »

WHay are you baffled? The FIA are good at favouring Ferrari!

i guess, but there must be easier ways to decide not to have allow an appeal... starting with not having a two day appeal hearing to decide this, big waste of time.

this provides a bit more info on what went on and even though its coming from williams, at least clarifies their position and belief that their cars were legal
http://www.itv-f1.com/News_Article.aspx?PO_ID=41310

Seth Brundle

Interesting editorial: www.planet-f1.com/story/0,18954,3261_2887397,00.html

aidan_dunne

I think the most telling line in the whole article that kbannon posted above is the final one:

What is bringing F1 into disrepute isn't the teams spying on each other, it's the inability of the governing body to run its own sport.

Never a truer word has been spoken. It's almost getting to the point where the whole FIA needs to be scrapped and the whole thing built back up again from the ground up because the whole situation is getting bloody ridiculous at this stage.

Catcher86

eolhc wrote: »

i guess, but there must be easier ways to decide not to have allow an appeal... starting with not having a two day appeal hearing to decide this, big waste of time.

this provides a bit more info on what went on and even though its coming from williams, at least clarifies their position and belief that their cars were legal
http://www.itv-f1.com/News_Article.aspx?PO_ID=41310

This is what seemed obvious at the time, and frankly I am amazed by Ron Dennis.
The fuel temperatures were a bit different to the other cars but they were within the regulations.
It seems Ron Denis is trying to create a band wagon scenario with regards the FIA/Mosley being harsh to McClaren.
Whereas he should just get over the fact that Lewis messed up, and he should count himself lucky that Alonso and Lewis were allowed to continue to compete.

http://www.planet-f1.com/story/0,189...887397,00.html

Once again planetf1 have seemed to write another unobjective piece.

Ghost Train

Catcher86 wrote: »

This is what seemed obvious at the time, and frankly I am amazed by Ron Dennis.
The fuel temperatures were a bit different to the other cars but they were within the regulations.
It seems Ron Denis is trying to create a band wagon scenario with regards the FIA/Mosley being harsh to McClaren.
Whereas he should just get over the fact that Lewis messed up, and he should count himself lucky that Alonso and Lewis were allowed to continue to compete.

http://www.planet-f1.com/story/0,189...887397,00.html

Once again planetf1 have seemed to write another unobjective piece.

McLaren accepted their fine and didn't appeal it.

They decided to appeal the stewards apparent decision not to punish three cars that broke the rules (as they were being unforced) during the brazilian grand prix

You'd think the fia could look into what happened in brazil and clarify if the teams racing hamilton/alonso broke the rules or if the decision not to act was fair for both kimi & hamilton. They are responsible for rules being enforced, if a team has a complaint, maybe they should look into it or clarify the rules

Catcher86

eolhc wrote: »

They decided to appeal the stewards apparent decision not to punish three cars that broke the rules (as they were being unforced) during the brazilian grand prix

You'd think the fia could look into what happened in brazil and clarify if the teams racing hamilton/alonso broke the rules...

As was said in the article that you referenced above, it seems that there was no breaching of the rules.

“The AT&T Williams team did not transgress the regulations, demonstrate any intent or gain any competitive advantage in relation to the management of its race fuels.

“1. Article 6.5.5 of the FIA technical regulations states that no fuel on board the car may be more than 10C below ambient temperature.

“4. The lowest temperatures recorded by Williams’ precise on-board sensors in the fuel tank and in the fuel injection rail on either of its cars during the grand prix were 31C and 35C respectively.

“5. Consequently, as the stewards found, there was no breach of the regulations.

“6. All of the preceding points are consistent with all of the clarifications and opinions related to fuel temperatures expressed in team managers’ meetings and other such forums.

“The views offered in these meetings fully support Williams’ case as presented to the FIA ICA.

“These facts lay behind the stewards’ decision in Brazil.

Granted the FIA should probably come out with a statement to this effect themselves along with the statement that dismissed McLaren's appeal, based on a technicality.
However the FIA probably feel that the rules are there to be read and that people should be able to read them and interput that there was no breach of the regulations.
It seems to me (on what I have read so far) that McClaren's appeal was based on the comparison of BMW/Williams fuel temperatures with the rest of the field and not in comparison with the rules and regulations.

Ghost Train

Catcher86 wrote: »

As was said in the article that you referenced above, it seems that there was no breaching of the rules.

According to Williams they didn't break the rules. Thats is in no way the same as the fia saying they didn't break the rules.