Business as usual by the IRA

Voipjunkie

Tristrame wrote: »

Who are you talking about?
Not the DUP surely? They've welcomed the utter condemnation of this by SF.

As I alluded to earlier and touched on by others here,I'd imagine SF are pretty píssed off by what these people have done whether they be former IRA or whatever.
SF/Republicanism doesn't want to be associated with this type of thing anymore.
Unfortunately but rightly for the perpetrators,they are going to find hopefully that they will have to pay for their actions with a significant term behind bars.
Selective amnesia as to the new dispensation and what they can no longer get away with up north just wont wash anymore even amongst their senior handlers.

According to the Irish times today the PSNI have told the DUP that they have nothing to link this to the IRA at this stage
The Gardai are saying that they believe the people who carried it out may have been former IRA members and it is not linked to the IRA by sanction.

And that locals are firmly of the opinion that its a falling out amongst criminal gangs involved in smuggling diesel but that the fellow was just supposed to be beaten not murdered.

And just to go back to what someone asked earlier Adams is quoted in the Times as saying that if he personally had any hard evidence he would go to the PSNI with it and that people had a duty to report anything that could help catch the killers.

Voipjunkie

Voipjunkie wrote: »

According to the Irish times today the PSNI have told the DUP that they have nothing to link this to the IRA at this stage
The Gardai are saying that they believe the people who carried it out may have been former IRA members and it is not linked to the IRA by sanction.

And that locals are firmly of the opinion that its a falling out amongst criminal gangs involved in smuggling diesel but that the fellow was just supposed to be beaten not murdered.

There are 2 difficulties with that (1) The ultimate arbitrators of who is and isn't a current IRA member is the IRA-ergo (2)anyone who does something that is awkward like this operation can automatically become an "ex" IRA person.

I stand by my point though,and that is even if they just gave him a light beating,the perpetrators should see the hand of the law for that.
Those used to and who think they can still act above the law should be learning societal norms apply to them now aswell.
They always did apply to everybody of course but now they really really do apply.
Murder and manslaughter are crimes as are punishment beatings.

I mean I shudder to think what the E.U commission would think if we were to allow company bosses to beat their employee's around with cricket bats for turning up late for work or for crashing the company car...

[Thats an analogy there I'm using by the way given that the story behind this episode was people making money from smugling fell out with one of their employee's]

Jackie laughlin

Voip,
No, this won't wash. You are confusing motive with credibility. Until I can see that McA is not to be believed, his word is worth more than that of Adams. (Yes, I accept that motivation will feature in assessing credibility but nothing like as strongly as a record of deception.)

It seems that it needs saying again: The IRA still exists.

Maybe a question needs repeating too: What is the difference between a "peace process" and peace?

Voipjunkie

Jackie laughlin wrote: »

Voip,
No, this won't wash. You are confusing motive with credibility. Until I can see that McA is not to be believed, his word is worth more than that of Adams. (Yes, I accept that motivation will feature in assessing credibility but nothing like as strongly as a record of deception.)

It seems that it needs saying again: The IRA still exists.

Maybe a question needs repeating too: What is the difference between a "peace process" and peace?

Why is his word worth more than Adams because you would like what he said to be true if you are to be in any way credible you would have to treat both McAllister and Adams with at least equal disdain.


On top of that Orde and Conroy are both giving an assessment that does not equate with what McAllister has said but based purely on the principle of the enemy of my enemy is my friend you are prepared to believe McAllister interesting to say the least.

oscarBravo

Dude. Seriously: punctuation is your friend. It takes me at least three tries to parse a meaning from your posts.

Voipjunkie

Tristrame wrote: »

There are 2 difficulties with that (1) The ultimate arbitrators of who is and isn't a current IRA member is the IRA-ergo (2)anyone who does something that is awkward like this operation can automatically become an "ex" IRA person.

Well in this case the PSNI and the Gardai are the ones who are briefing that these are former IRA members it is not the IRA who have disowned them so I presume that gives the view that they are ex IRA members more credence for you.

Tristrame wrote: »

I stand by my point though,and that is even if they just gave him a light beating,the perpetrators should see the hand of the law for that.
Those used to and who think they can still act above the law should be learning societal norms apply to them now aswell.
They always did apply to everybody of course but now they really really do apply.
Murder and manslaughter are crimes as are punishment beatings.

I mean I shudder to think what the E.U commission would think if we were to allow company bosses to beat their employee's around with cricket bats for turning up late for work or for crashing the company car...

[Thats an analogy there I'm using by the way given that the story behind this episode was people making money from smugling fell out with one of their employee's]

I agree wholeheartedly I was not trying to suggest that there actions were ok because they did not mean to kill him just giving the background to the incident as per the Irish times this morning.
It is a different angle than was protrayed yesterday where it was a punishment beating for crossing a Republican if that is not the case then the implications for the Northern Assembly are very different if it is a falling out between criminals gangs that does not mean in anyway that the perpetrators are any less dangerous or deserve any less punishment.

Voipjunkie

oscarBravo wrote: »

Dude. Seriously: punctuation is your friend. It takes me at least three tries to parse a meaning from your posts.

Ah the punctuation police are after me again.

Jackie laughlin

Voip,
Try it this way.

Person A has a reputation for deception and, say, six eminent historians have effectively called her a liar.

Person B has no such reputation.

All other things being equal, it would be reasonable to believe Person B rather than Person A.

Now all other things might not be equal, in which case the logical calculus would change and might call the word of B into doubt but A would never be a credible person.

Voipjunkie

Jackie laughlin wrote: »

Voip,
Try it this way.

Person A has a reputation for deception and, say, six eminent historians have effectively called her a liar.

Person B has no such reputation.

All other things being equal, it would be reasonable to believe Person B rather than Person A.

Now all other things might not be equal, in which case the logical calculus would change and might call the word of B into doubt but A would never be a credible person.

NO because you are only accepting person B on the basis that it supports your pre conception.

IF Person B was to make a statement regarding any other issue you would dismiss him out of hand as an unreconstructed provo.

If you are going to just say that you will never believe Mr A not matter what he says then it kind of makes any debate pointless.

for my part I think that SF and its leadership have quite obviously changed calls to give information to the PSNI should not be so easily dismissed

Jackie laughlin

Voip,
No, I'm not prepared to accept McA's word and his background in SF/IRA does call his credibility into doubt. Adams credibility is utterly shot. He may be telling the truth on this occasion. Restoring one's credibility is not easy and normally involves coming clean but even then there will be a lingering doubt. I think it would be wrong to dismiss as lies everything Adams says but it would be naive to accept his word without reservation.

LordSutch

Have they, or have'nt they gone away?

and if not, "WHY NOT"?

Mr.Micro

The IRA are never going to rat on each other .Like all clandestine organizations secrecy and code are what keeps them intact and protects the members ,just like the mafia . Dont hold your breath for answers or the truth.

RedPlanet

What do people expect exactly?
That the former IRA Army Council strolls into the local PSNI barracks and tells them so-and-so did it. And then that would be magically enough to secure a conviction?
Whatever happened to good ol' detective work.
Forensics and the like.

Jackie laughlin

Frankly, yes! Any citizen with any information must give it to the police. It may not be enough to secure a conviction but it may add to police knowledge.

Arthur,
No, they still exist. I asked several times here what they were for. Finally, I got one reply: they are under the control of Gerry Adams and they make sure that no one steps out of line!!

RedPlanet

Tell you what, you get HMG to bring to justice their own rogue elements and murderers then maybe we can convince the IRA to do the same.

Mighty_Mouse

SF told anyone with knowledge to go to the police?
SF state that the PSNI have their full support.

Whats the problem here?

People want Gerry Adams to actually do the police work also?

Finally, even most unionists agree that the IRA have disarmed & disbanded.
What you have here is a few FORMER 'RA-heads involved in crime.
I refer to my 1st 2 sentences on that one.

Jackie laughlin

Mighty,
You are the first person I have heard claim that the IRA has disbanded.

There is no problem as long as everyone does indeed tell the PSNI or An Garda everything they know about crimes.

Have a look at Red Planet's post just above. It illustrates the problem very well.

Red Planet,
The PSNI will be judged on rooting out and charging all murderers. Indeed, they should pursue police and army criminals more vigorously because their crimes betray the rule of law.

Mr.Micro

If the IRA went to the Police with info on the killing what then?Step into the witness box and give sworn evidence.If such an impossible scenario were to happen what then all the secrets from the past might start coming out as well.Unless the Police solve it it will stay unsolved

Voipjunkie

RedPlanet wrote: »

What do people expect exactly?
That the former IRA Army Council strolls into the local PSNI barracks and tells them so-and-so did it. And then that would be magically enough to secure a conviction?
Whatever happened to good ol' detective work.
Forensics and the like.

TBH once these guys get involved in criminality any loyalty should be out the window they are only discrediting the entire republican movement.

I don't expect anyone to inform on what people did when they were in the IRA but the war is over and there is no need for fund raising if these guys have gone solo and are lining their own pockets I don't see why they should be protected

Voipjunkie

Mr.Micro wrote: »

If the IRA went to the Police with info on the killing what then?Step into the witness box and give sworn evidence.If such an impossible scenario were to happen what then all the secrets from the past might start coming out as well.Unless the Police solve it it will stay unsolved

I don't see what useful or usable information the IRA would have on these people.
Yes they may be aware of who was involved, but I'm sure the Gardai and the PSNI know that already, what the police need is real evidence not third party word of mouth.
There are presumably 3 witnesses in the form of Mr Quinns friends that is the kind of information the police need.

Mighty_Mouse

Mighty,
You are the first person I have heard claim that the IRA has disbanded.

IICD report of February 2006
http://www.nio.gov.uk/report_of_the_independent_commission_on_decommissioning_19_january_2006.pdf
= Decommissioning
ie. the army has no arms

July 2005 = IRA statement " The War is over"
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/northern_ireland/4724599.stm
ie the army has no war

Update on the situation Sept 2007
From the IMO (16th report)

...........................

Since the
decision of Sinn Féin in January 2007 to support policing and the
criminal justice system they have joined the Policing Board and there
has been increasing co-operation with the PSNI on the ground. PIRA
is not engaged in terrorist activity and we believe that it does not plan
to return to it. It has issued clear instructions to its members to refrain
from all forms of violence and it continues to encourage them to take
part in political and other forms of community activity. Senior PIRA
figures have engaged in public dialogue with loyalist groups. We
therefore conclude, as we did in our previous report of this kind six
months ago, that PIRA has abandoned terrorism and violence and that
it does not pose any form of threat relevant to security normalisation

http://www.independentmonitoringcommission.org/publications.cfm?id=60

When wars finish, armys stop fighting. Which even Ian Paisley is happy to accept.

The current problems in the north are criminal ones.
Same problems as exist in Limerick & Dublin

ie its a police matter

Mr.Micro

Voipjunkie wrote: »

I don't see what useful or usable information the IRA would have on these people.
Yes they may be aware of who was involved, but I'm sure the Gardai and the PSNI know that already, what the police need is real evidence not third party word of mouth.
There are presumably 3 witnesses in the form of Mr Quinns friends that is the kind of information the police need.

Yes but as we all know the cops need pointing in the right direction and most often it is public info that does it . People are rightly afraid of the IRA and that will remain for a long time ,hence people are reluctant to get involved .

oscarBravo

Mighty_Mouse wrote: »

Ok lets take this in baby steps so:

You can be as patronising as you like, but nothing you posted indicates that the IRA no longer exists, unless you're making up definitions of "disband" as you go along.

RedPlanet

The IRA are not disbanded.
There are no words in the GFA that stipulate disbanding.
In fact, a relatively recent statment by the IICD said that it was beneficial that the IRA retain it's organisational structure.

Mr.Micro

The IRA is not gone .IRA is in the blood of certain families its almost like a gene that is passed down like a fanatacism .as in Unionism or Orange lodge members .It does not go away just inert for now

Sand

The IRA will not slip quietly into the night I think. As people have said already, there are many families - concentrated in the north, but dotted about Ireland - that trade very heavily on the notoriety of the IRA. Adams himself is from a infamous IRA family, one of the blue bloods of the IRA. The 70s and 80s saw a large number of newcomers with no family history to the IRA but lets face it - the fear, intimidation and power these families have wielded over their neighbours for decades must be intoxicating. Theyre not going to give it up easily.

Rather than the IRA becoming an old veterans organisation [ pass the sickbag] its more likely it will simply morph into a mafia style organised crime syndicate - local "brigages" keeping up with the profitable smuggling and protection rackets, intimidating anyone who dares to stand up to them, making an example of the unlucky few. Theyll still claim to hate the British and yearn for a United Ireland but what they truly want is the benefits that come with being outside the law. The central leadership will probably shut down, but the local cells will remain active and will always have the common link of the "good old days". Organised crime will be another gift of the Provos to Ireland.

This poor guy was beaten to death because he got in a fight with some local Provos kid. Anything else is dirt digging by the Provos counter attack PR group as they desperately try to spin the line that even if Provos were involved, the victim got what was coming to him which is their typical line. They even tried to claim that a kickboxing champion was a junkie to justify their murder of him, nothing to do with this "junkie" kicking the crap out of some provo and his thugs - no sir.

What I find bitterly amusing is Adams and Co urging people to step forth to give evidence. Any time someone co-operated with the police, they had them abducted, tortured, murdered and deposited in an unmarked grave. They put so much effort into ensuring people wouldnt co-operate with any investigation. Its laughable to assume they dont know, or cant have a very good guess at who beat this young man to death [ beat him to death - hit him, and hit him and hit him until he died ]. But hey, at least they made some statement to encourage people to come forward. Worked for the McCartney murder didnt it?

the war is over and there is no need for fund raising

Hey, running election campaigns isnt cheap. Every NIB bank job helps.

stovelid

Sand wrote: »

Rather than the IRA becoming an old veterans organisation [ pass the sickbag] its more likely it will simply morph into a mafia style organised crime syndicate

Hold on a minute: some of them may be fast tracked into lucrative jobs as "community workers".

RedPlanet

Sand wrote: »

This poor guy was beaten to death because he got in a fight with some local Provos kid.

Privy to all the facts are you?
I doubt it, reads like english Sun.

Sand wrote: »

Every NIB bank job helps.

Tut, tut.
Was an inside job Sands, just won't let facts get in the way huh?
Or is it that the NIB hire Provos?

stovelid

RedPlanet wrote: »

Was an inside job Sands, just won't let facts get in the way huh?
Or is it that the NIB hire Provos?

The small matter of bearing arms against the Brits or blowing up half of the country is readily admitted to by the IRA, but they baulk at admitting to *gasp* illegally robbing banks .

mancduff

There only digging there own grave (I.R.A) or affiliates they stand for nothing but greed, wealth and power. Sympathy to the family i hope you can cope with your loss through family and friends. To send 9 men after 1 with weapons and the like is sick and cowardly, travellers can be subhuman sometimes not all of them but some especially the ones who sell laptop boxes with bricks in it, but atleast they settle disputes one on one with rules (from the vids i've seen) until they degenerate into gunplay they usually and i mean usually (as my friend is a settled traveller) fight it out, i think any form of conflict is barbaric and as history has proven dialect moves things on more swiftly and solves more probelms but 9 on 1 i just can't get my head round it and these guys fought the British Army. My Wolfe Tones tape is going back in the box in the attic. Cowards.