FLAG / SSAI Respresentation with DOJ

223 Hornady

I'm not involved in the shooting scene for long enough to even pretend to know anything about the history of FLAG or the politics of the SSAI or other NGBs, but I think that anyone with a bit of cop on can see that if someone has done a job for 10+ yrs that he will have a far better insight , and knowledge of the workings of that job than say , someone that has been in a similar job for only 6 months. So , correct me if I am wrong , the SSAI have put forward their chairman ( How long is he chairman , and what knowledge of the CJB has he got , who is he , has he done anything for shooting sport since he was made chairman ) to sit in on the meetings that will decide our future in this sport , and FLAG will take his place only if he cant make the meeting ( FLAG being the one that has the 10 + yrs of experiance with the DOJ , has been instrumental in the release of Pistols and larger caliber rifles , and has sat in on all the meetings with the DOJ to date).

Hello people , it is time to wake up to reallity . From the little bit of history that I do know , we have done quite well over the last 5 or 6 yrs , most of which is down to FLAG . A saying my dad used to use a lot " if its not broken , Dont fix it ! " Leave FLAG where they are I dont see where they have done anything to jeopardise our sport .

rrpc

223 Hornady wrote: »

I'm not involved in the shooting scene for long enough to even pretend to know anything about the history of FLAG or the politics of the SSAI or other NGBs,

So stop there and learn more.

le_Chacal

223 Hornady wrote: »

I'm not involved in the shooting scene for long enough to even pretend to know anything about the history of FLAG or the politics of the SSAI or other NGBs, but I think that anyone with a bit of cop on can see that if someone has done a job for 10+ yrs that he will have a far better insight , and knowledge of the workings of that job than say , someone that has been in a similar job for only 6 months. So , correct me if I am wrong , the SSAI have put forward their chairman ( How long is he chairman , and what knowledge of the CJB has he got , who is he , has he done anything for shooting sport since he was made chairman ) to sit in on the meetings that will decide our future in this sport , and FLAG will take his place only if he cant make the meeting ( FLAG being the one that has the 10 + yrs of experiance with the DOJ , has been instrumental in the release of Pistols and larger caliber rifles , and has sat in on all the meetings with the DOJ to date).

Hello people , it is time to wake up to reallity . From the little bit of history that I do know , we have done quite well over the last 5 or 6 yrs , most of which is down to FLAG . A saying my dad used to use a lot " if its not broken , Dont fix it ! " Leave FLAG where they are I dont see where they have done anything to jeopardise our sport .

governments change, committees change, party leaderships change.
as somebody said earlier the people that were elected to the officers position in the ssai, would have to be competent or are we all fools and dk is the only brain in ireland. the amendments were mostly brought about by nargc and f brophy. get you facts right. also the ssai rep will not be the only one that will be there. nargc and other bodies will have reps at it.

by the way my dog pal was asking for you.:p

dresden8

"So stop there and learn more."

Yeah, learn to go to war with all the other ngo's. Apparently it's the only solution. The bastards!

223 Hornady

rrpc wrote: »

So stop there and learn more.

If these threads had a bit more actual information and less bickering it might be possible to learn more. I'm shooting now for about 5 yrs and I have never been approached or asked about my opinion on whats happening in the sport , by an NGB or representitive of any NGB . This board is probobly the only place to find out whats going on in the sport , the problem is that there is too much conflict between the different types of shooters , F class , olympic , IPSC , ISSF , clay shooters , deer stalkers , game shooters , to get any usable information , because 90% of the time when a thread like this , which is a very important one , opens , the likes of Le Chakal jumps in and hi jacks it . There ends the useful information and begins the sniping ( no pun intended ) like I said , i'm relatively new to the sport but with all the C**p that goes on here i'm surprised that there is a sport . Thats why I think that FLAG should stay on as they seem to be the only ones that are doing anything constructive for this sport .

223 Hornady

le_Chacal wrote: »

governments change, committees change, party leaderships change.
as somebody said earlier the people that were elected to the officers position in the ssai, would have to be competent or are we all fools and dk is the only brain in ireland. the amendments were mostly brought about by nargc and f brophy. get you facts right. also the ssai rep will not be the only that will be there. nargc and other bodies.

by the way my dog pal was asking for you.:p

I rest my case .:rolleyes:

rrpc

223 Hornady wrote: »

Thats why I think that FLAG should stay on as they seem to be the only ones that are doing anything constructive for this sport .

If you read the thread, then you would know that the DoJ made the decision as to who or what was represented on the Panel.

Blaming everyone else because they did not get invited seems to be a bit stupid to be honest.

Instead of trying to work with those who are invited, those not invited seem to be saying "We're better, step down in favour of us".

Well I'll check the family tree for the lemmings and get back to you on that.

223 Hornady

rrpc wrote: »

If you read the thread, then you would know that the DoJ made the decision as to who or what was represented on the Panel.

Thats not what I read , from my understanding , the DOJ have invited the NGO to put forward a representative , they havent specified who.

Well if common sense prevails , the individual with the most experiance should be the one going forward, and obviously that is FLAG .

le_Chacal

223 Hornady wrote: »

If these threads had a bit more actual information and less bickering it might be possible to learn more. I'm shooting now for about 5 yrs and I have never been approached or asked about my opinion on whats happening in the sport , by an NGB or representitive of any NGB . This board is probobly the only place to find out whats going on in the sport , the problem is that there is too much conflict between the different types of shooters , F class , olympic , IPSC , ISSF , clay shooters , deer stalkers , game shooters , to get any usable information , because 90% of the time when a thread like this , which is a very important one , opens , the likes of Le Chakal jumps in and hi jacks it . There ends the useful information and begins the sniping ( no pun intended ) like I said , i'm relatively new to the sport but with all the C**p that goes on here i'm surprised that there is a sport . Thats why I think that FLAG should stay on as they seem to be the only ones that are doing anything constructive for this sport .

le_chacal

is this an open forum or do i have to ask permission from 223horndy to use it.
comments i have made are very important and provable. dk has not come back with any answers. re his dismissal and why from a club in south dublin.

this is very important to me as to who should represent me and other shooters. i dont know about you.

rrpc

223 Hornady wrote: »

Thats not what I read , from my understanding , the DOJ have invited the NGO to put forward a representative , they havent specified who.

The SSAI was asked to nominate a representative, FLAG was not.

rrpc

Damn

If I'd posted that one minute earlier that would have been 100 posts in a day on one thread

Is that a record?

le_Chacal

223 Hornady wrote: »

Thats not what I read , from my understanding , the DOJ have invited the NGO to put forward a representative , they havent specified who.

Well if common sense prevails , the individual with the most experiance should be the one going forward, and obviously that is FLAG .

why should dk be the one and is flag only one person if so this is not great representation. remember m collins and the trouble that caused:cool:

223 Hornady

rrpc wrote: »

The SSAI was asked to nominate a representative, FLAG was not.

I thought that FLAG was part of the SSAI , the part that was nominated to deal with Firearms Legislation ( Action Group ) ?

Bananaman

I am afraid the waters have become quite murky on this thread.

Can someone who IS invited or has accepted a seat on this panel please declare

a) That they will be looking after the interests of the Dynamic Shooting Sports. Specifically, but not limited to, Practical Pistol, Practical Rifle and Practical Shotgun. There are many more but the same principles apply.

b) That they will be arguing against any unreasonable restriction of the full range of Full Bore Pistol calibres used in Practical Pistol - aswell as the full range of calibres used in all other shooting sports. I only say Practical Pistol as it is the handgun discipline I have seen the most diversity in when it comes to calibres and types of firearm.

c) That they will be arguing for the introduction of proper legislation with respect to the reloading of ammunition.

d) That they will make a formal request to the DOJ to invite IPSA to partake in the panel to represent the interests of Practical Shooting disciplines and their participants in Ireland- in light of the fact that none of the other bodies are

These are areas that I felt, given that IPSA have not as yet been invited, Declan/FLAG would ensure were addressed. Without either of them being present I am not sure that these concerns will be addressed by those that are.

B'Man

le_Chacal

223 Hornady wrote: »

I thought that FLAG was part of the SSAI , the part that was nominated to deal with Firearms Legislation ( Action Group ) ?

there was trouble in nrpai when the negotiations started with doj because dk wanted to be the only one that would attend the meetings. the results members left.

you wont remember you not long enough in shooting so you say.:o

dresden8

I'm afraid it's clear to DOJ officials that shooters are divided tossers and we are effed. They are now free to do what they want. Well done lads. Back of the net, to mix your metaphors.

le_Chacal

Bananaman wrote: »

I am afraid the waters have become quite murky on this thread.

Can someone who IS invited or has accepted a seat on this panel please declare
a) That they will be looking after the interests of the Dynamic Shooting Sports. Specifically, but not limited to, Practical Pistol, Practical Rifle and Practical Shotgun. There are many more but the same principles apply.

b) That they will be arguing against any unreasonable restriction of the full range of Full Bore Pistol calibres used in Practical Pistol - aswell as the full range of calibres used in all other shooting sports. I only say Practical Pistol as it is the handgun discipline I have seen the most diversity in when it comes to calibres and types of firearm.

c) That they will be arguing for the introduction of proper legislation with respect to the reloading of ammunition.

d) That they will make a formal request to the DOJ to invite IPSA to partake in the panel to represent the interests of Practical Shooting disciplines and their participants in Ireland- in light of the fact that none of the other bodies are

These are areas that I felt, given that IPSA have not as yet been invited, Declan/FLAG would ensure were addressed. Without either of them being present I am not sure that these concerns will be addressed by those that are.

B'Man

COLOR="Red"]Can someone who IS invited or has accepted a seat on this panel please declare [/COLOR]

le_chacal
im sure they will and it does not have to be dk. again nargc is probably the largest Representative body for shooters. have you ever check or ask this question of them.

223 Hornady

le_Chacal wrote: »

there was trouble in nrpai when the negotiations started with doj because dk wanted to be the only the would attend the meetings. the results members left.

you wont remember you not long enough in shooting so you say.:o

How long ago was this ? obviously it was longer than 5 yrs ago , he , DK that is has done a lot for shooting sports in the last 5 yrs through FLAG , so if Members of the NRPAI left , it didnt stop the successful outcome of getting the fullbore rifles and pistols back by FLAG

Ned Muldhoon

Le_Chacal,
I believe we have been through this discussion before (south Dub. club etc) on a separate thread and exhausted it.

What concerns us here is, that on the advent of new policy from the DOJ, there is a change in the negotiating team representing the SSAI. I cannot see how accusations made by you regarding some club issues can have any bearing on this subject. Also, check your keyboard config / language. I think it might be incorrectly set.

Division amoungst our respective organisations is obviously rife, none of the organisations mentioned appear to have a global view on this subject of shooting. All aspects of shooting sports should be represented via a united and cohesive body. I've monitored progress with FLAG and the DOJ closely for a long time now and have formed a non biased, objective opinion that this body would equally represent all diciplines.

Time to cut to the chase. The primary question here concerns firearms ownership, not what dicipline the individual firearm is used for. If we loose pistols, full bore target rifles are next, closely followed on by semi auto shotguns and then my 8 year olds' spud gun. We have quickly forgotten the dogma associated with old guard and dictated policy.

Allow Declan to complete his work on this panel, we can start at each others throats again once the new bill is enacted and our guns are safely locked away in our new safes

Bananaman

le_Chacal wrote: »

again nargc is probably the largest Representative body for shooters. have you ever check or ask this question of them.

I actually always assumed NARGC would be impartial and look after all shooting sports and shooters right as opposed to specific disciplines.

However, this topic is about SSAI representation on the panel.

With Declan/FLAG in that position I was happy enough that they also would look after shooting sports and shooters right as opposed to specific disciplines. Aside from his obvious experience in prior dealings with the parties on the panel I've seen Declan participate in, RO and instruct in virtually every form of shooting sport I have tried.

My concern arose when this representation changed - mainly because it had changed and why.

I do not know who will now be representing SSAI and do not know what their experience of, for example, Dynamic Shooting Sports are like, now that they will be asked to provide input to the panel on questions arising in relation to those sports. This concerns me.

This thread asked specifically, what has changed in the SSAI and why has it changed that FLAG is not representing them on the Panel when it was fine for FLAG to represent the SSAI at all other dealings with the DOJ to this point.

I don't think this has been answered.

My earlier

Bananaman wrote: »

questions

were simply to clarify my concerns.


B'Man

Bananaman

Ned Muldhoon wrote: »

Allow Declan to complete his work on this panel, we can start at each others throats again once the new bill is enacted and our guns are safely locked away in our new safes

Well Said - I agree 100%

B'Man

le_Chacal

Ned Muldhoon wrote: »

Le_Chacal,
I believe we have been through this discussion before (south Dub. club etc) on a separate thread and exhausted it.

What concerns us here is, that on the advent of new policy from the DOJ, there is a change in the negotiating team representing the SSAI. I cannot see how accusations made by you regarding some club issues can have any bearing on this subject. Also, check your keyboard config / language. I think it might be incorrectly set.

Division amoungst our respective organisations is obviously rife, none of the organisations mentioned appear to have a global view on this subject of shooting. All aspects of shooting sports should be represented via a united and cohesive body. I've monitored progress with FLAG and the DOJ closely for a long time now and have formed a non biased, objective opinion that this body would equally represent all diciplines.

Time to cut to the chase. The primary question here concerns firearms ownership, not what dicipline the individual firearm is used for. If we loose pistols, full bore target rifles are next, closely followed on by semi auto shotguns and then my 8 year olds' spud gun. We have quickly forgotten the dogma associated with old guard and dictated policy.

Allow Declan to complete his work on this panel, we can start at each others throats again once the new bill is enacted and our guns are safely locked away in our new safes

i totally agree with you in relation to the sport. there are going to be plenty of people there to represent us the shooters.

whats the big deal about one man. he has run his course and the ssai have made a decision.

it seems to me that this is a group of friends trying to save a drowning man

must go to bed in work in the morning

Ned Muldhoon

le_Chacal,

I don't think you fully appreciate the context of my last post. Unless Declan and T. Martin are allow to continue as they have done, representing the broad spectrum of sports men & women, we stand the risk of returning to the bad old days of ad hoc dictated ad hoc (and very badly interpreted) DOJ policy on firearms. I don't care what dicipline you are involved in, a firearm is a firearm.

Rew

rrpc wrote: »

So stop there and learn more.

That has to be the most arrogant thing I've ever seen posted on these boards.

rrpc

Rew wrote: »

That hast to be the most arrogant thing I've ever seen posted on these boards.

Perhaps you are right Rew.

Personally I thought that someone saying that they know nothing about the issues and then telling everyone to heed their opinion was arrogant.

I just pointed that out.

Clash

Ned Muldhoon wrote: »

What concerns us here is, that on the advent of new policy from the DOJ, there is a change in the negotiating team representing the SSAI. I cannot see how accusations made by you regarding some club issues can have any bearing on this subject.

I think le Chacal's point is that if someone believes themselves not answerable to their club then what can we expect when the stakes are higher?

Division amoungst our respective organisations is obviously rife, none of the organisations mentioned appear to have a global view on this subject of shooting.

Obviously how? It appears that an SSAI meeting involving the NASRC, NSAI, NRAI, IPC and NTSA were ad idem in their choice of representative. The only people who appear to be not of the same point of view are the IPSA who as yet are not part of the SSAI and Declan Keogh who one would have thought could hardly be objective on the subject.

All aspects of shooting sports should be represented via a united and cohesive body. I've monitored progress with FLAG and the DOJ closely for a long time now and have formed a non biased, objective opinion that this body would equally represent all diciplines.

As FLAG is a subcommittee of the SSAI, I can hardly see how it would have a differing viewpoint from it's parent body. If it did, then you would have to ask was it properly representing the views of it's parent?

Time to cut to the chase. The primary question here concerns firearms ownership, not what dicipline the individual firearm is used for. If we loose pistols, full bore target rifles are next, closely followed on by semi auto shotguns and then my 8 year olds' spud gun. We have quickly forgotten the dogma associated with old guard and dictated policy.

There is an inherent arrogance in these remarks. You paint a gloomy picture where only one prophet can lead us to the promised land. The assumption seems to be that everyone else is incompetent, ignorant and ready to sell their sport for thirty pieces of silver at the drop of a hat. Where is the evidence of that?

MortgageMan

As a shooter who enjoys his sports, I have some very real fears in relation to the consultative panel. This is the end game where our shooting sport's future will be determined. I feel that because this issue is so serious only the best qualified, experienced and knowledgably representatives should be on this panel representing me and the greater shooting community YOU.

I have read with disgust some of the replys on this and other threads of infighting and bickering between clubs and their members. It is now time to park our personal issues for a short period of time and try to achieve the global aims of the shooting community.

To this end I would request the following

1. Who exactly will be on the panel representing me, name of each person please

2. What qualifies them for such an important job, list their credentials, prove their worth to be at the table

3. Let them state their intentions and what exactly they are looking to achieve, for their discipline and for the shooting community as a whole

When we have the answers to the above, then a group meeting should be called between all these different people to thrash out the main issues and attend the panel as a unified group intent on securing the future of our sport.

Who cares if Joe Bloggs is on the panel, providing that he can do the job properly. Sorry for naming Joe here.

Hopefully I can get some real answers.

waggawagga

May I take this opportunity to compliment all of you on a fine job of promoting a worthy cause - the disarming of the Irish Shooting Community by the Department of Justice who must be rubbing their hands with glee at the prospect of meeting a demoralised, fractious and divided delegation of shooters in the very near future. We have dismissed and slandered our ablest and most experienced negotiator; we have replaced him with a hotchpotch of commercial and narrow sectional interests; we are keeping our eyes firmly fixed off the ball - somewhere between our two left feet; Instead of demanding action we are exercising personal vendettas; The sole voice of sanity - "a Firearm is a Firearm" and "We need to stick together" is lost in the babble.

We can settle this in ONE day. Demand an EGM of the SSAI and a public explanation which, if found unacceptable, should be followed by votes of no confidence in those responsible. Contact your associations by email, phone, text or letter as soon as possible to ask for an EGM of the S.S.A.I. to explain their actions.

Kieran Barry, N.A.S.R.C. mbarry@eircom.net Mobile No: 087-2400691
Declan Cahill, S.S.A.I. news@ireland.com Mobile No: 087-2583434
Henry Lee, N.S.A.I. hlee@nil.ie Mobile No: 087-9942457

Ned Muldhoon

Clash,

In answer to your questions:

Le Chacal made an accusation - proof please - otherwise as you very rightly point out - it's merely conjecture

As to division - I assume you have been reading this thread from inception.


FLAG (along with other bodies) has been involved with formulation of the elements on the new CJB that directly effect the shooting community. Since all of the information I have received on progress regarding this issue has come from FLAG, one would naturally assume that this sub committee, who although reports to the parent body, has first hand information, personal contacts and has formed a relationship with key players in the DOJ.
I don't really care whether the SSAI or FLAG are negotiating, what I fail to understand is why the negotiating team has changed (whether it's FLAG or the SSAI! - it's the people who played the key part in policy formation)

You have accused me of applied inherent arrogance. My opinion is an objective view based on past experience. Did you ever hold a firearm in the UK or a dominion prior to the firearms act 1997? - aptly entitled "Prohibition of weapons and ammunition". The same arguments persisted in the UK prior to this (and previous) bills that killed off a number of shooting sports in one stroke of a pen. The inability of NGO's to present a united and consistent front in no small way allowed to ease this bill through. This fact has been accepted by most of these organisations, but enacted bills do not allow for retrospection.

I did not make any accusations re "thirty pieces of silver", my argument / opinion as stated in my opening and subsequent posts merely asks the question - WHY WAS THE ORIGINAL NEGOTIATING TEAM REPLACED?

sidneyreilly

rrpc wrote: »

The nominee of the NTSA is published on the NTSA website. I pointed this out before, and I believe I also posted the announcement on this board.

Perhaps I'm being paranoid, but your question infers that there is something hidden or underhand involved in these decisions, my answer here is to extinguish any such idea in peoples minds.

While we are on the subject of paranoia, dose it not look a bit odd that DOJ would send a separate invite to NTSA (who are already represented by SSAI) and not IPSA despite numerous entreaties by the Regional Director and others to DOJ? (Sid reaches for his X-Files)